View Full Version : "Well, at least I have something..."
What is wrong with that line of thinking?
As a civilian trying to perfect and solidify my concealed carry systems, I often wonder what the least amount of gun I should carry. My main carry gun holds 13+1 of 9mm. I just purchased a J-frame to carry when my main carry gun is simply too large or impractical to carry. Now I am considering, for example, a Ruger LCP; something small yet still viable to carry when other options aren't reasonable.
I know there are guys who carry full sized pistols day in and day out, but FOR ME, and I'm sure many others, it makes sense to have a few carry guns to allow oneself to carry 100% of the time. When I consider something like the LCP, I often tell myself "well, at least I will have something."
I am of the belief that having a gun on your person is better than not having one, but what is wrong with the thinking, "well, at least I have something."?
I hope all is clear.
Thanks in advance
Business_Casual
12-26-09, 12:36
What is wrong with that line of thinking?
As a civilian trying to perfect and solidify my concealed carry systems, I often wonder what the least amount of gun I should carry. My main carry gun holds 13+1 of 9mm. I just purchased a J-frame to carry when my main carry gun is simply too large or impractical to carry. Now I am considering, for example, a Ruger LCP; something small yet still viable to carry when other options aren't reasonable.
I know there are guys who carry full sized pistols day in and day out, but FOR ME, and I'm sure many others, it makes sense to have a few carry guns to allow oneself to carry 100% of the time. When I consider something like the LCP, I often tell myself "well, at least I will have something."
I am of the belief that having a gun on your person is better than not having one, but what is wrong with the thinking, "well, at least I have something."?
I hope all is clear.
Thanks in advance
Have you ever seen the YouTube video where the kid is carrying about a dozen weapons, some of them long guns and all he is wearing is a polo and jeans? I think it is about holster selection and doing the hard work (seemingly) of strapping on the gear, not making rationalizations about it.
M_P
As M_P said, you can make rationalizations about it all day long.
You could carry a knife instead of a gun...
You could carry an asp instead of a knife...
You could carry a bat instead of an asp...
You could carry mace instead of a bat...
You could carry Chris Costa in your back pocket instead of all of the above...
I dont just "want to have something". I want to have something that I feel confident is going to work 100% of the time and stop the threat presented towards me/my family/others.
If you feel that means the LCP is it for you - great! If you can't really carry an M&P FS, G17/G19, Govt 1911 all the time and you need that J-frame - great! You're considering your needs/dress and picking a platform that suits that.
But "just having something" sounds like a security blanket with holes to me...
I think digging into a pocket or some other such nook where you have tucked away a tiny pistol, with bad sights, long heavy trigger, no grip, and a cartridge which will penetrate 6" through bare gel in the middle of a SUDDEN VIOLENT ATTACK is more of a liability than an asset.
those little guns are only useful in ranges where you would prob be better off with a blade and the skills to use it or H2H skills.
I think they are marketed specifically to the type of person who feels like a firearm is a magic charm that wards off evil.
at the range that gun can be used in (not even effectively with that underpowered cartridge) we are talking bad breath distance. So while some goblin is smashing your face in with a tire iron your going to go putting your hand in your pocket ?
I think they are ill advised.
i dissagree with the above posts.. i would rather have an LCP than a knife.
i had a keltec p32 that i kept mostly as a BUG on my ankle (clipped to the top of my boot).. but i did carry it at other times when it was all i had. like the two guys before me just said, it is almost always an issue of finding the right concealment system. but there are those few lame times when there just isn't a way to do it. for instance- playing at the park with the kids. when you're rolling around and flipping and hopping and running and jumping at a crowded park with hundreds of kids and parents all over the place, you just can't have a USP 45 on your hip. so a .38/LCP/p32 in the pocket/boot/ankle/wherever is, at time like these, "better than nothing," and "at least you have something."
as far as the gun being a liability- all guns can easily be liabilities. you have to train with a BUG just like your duty/CCW/etc sidearm.. if you train, and train effectively, it's not a liability.
but it shouldnt ever be a regular, all-day carry option, no.
1) i dissagree with the above posts.. i would rather have an LCP than a knife.
2) <snip> playing at the park with the kids. when you're rolling around and flipping and hopping and running and jumping at a crowded park with hundreds of kids and parents all over the place, you just can't have a USP 45 on your hip. so a .38/LCP/p32 in the pocket/boot/ankle/wherever is, at time like these, "better than nothing," and "at least you have something."
as far as the gun being a liability- all guns can easily be liabilities. you have to train with a BUG just like your duty/CCW/etc sidearm.. if you train, and train effectively, it's not a liability.
but it shouldnt ever be a regular, all-day carry option, no.
1) Don't get me wrong; I'd rather have an LCP over a knife also...but I also don't want to be shot with a .25, so that doesn't mean I'm going to carry one to defend myself with...
And I think that's the point we're both making, it's just a semantics type argument at this point. Having A gun is part of the equation, just like training and practice.
But going back tot the .25 argument again...just because "I" don't want to get shot by it, doesn't mean I want to carry it...hell, i don't want to get shot period! But I'm not going to give myself a false sense of security and say "Oh, I have a gun..." because that thinking may end up hurting you or whoever you "need" to defend with said gun...
2) I'll agree tho - there are times that USP/FS M&P/G17 aren't the best options and a Keltec, Walther, Kahr, LCP/LCR etc are about all you can carry. If it suits what your own plan is and your needs - hey, I'm not going to necessarily knock you for that because you've taken the time out to think your needs through and made a logical assessment towards them...
As I said, it's semantics. The point of "just having something" doesn't work for me. Having an effective something however...that's different. I'd rather have an M&P than an LCP...I'd rather have an LCP over a knife...but I'd rather have a coffee can full of rabid, hungry, killer bee's on steroids that'd make Urkel win Mr Olympia than a Hi Point, Jennings or Lorcin...
NMBigfoot02
12-26-09, 14:39
Have you ever seen the YouTube video where the kid is carrying about a dozen weapons, some of them long guns and all he is wearing is a polo and jeans? I think it is about holster selection and doing the hard work (seemingly) of strapping on the gear, not making rationalizations about it.
M_P
I seem to recall that kid also not moving through the entire video.
Concealing a full size shotgun down your pants leg is pretty easy if you don't have to walk anywhere.
Business_Casual
12-26-09, 14:54
I seem to recall that kid also not moving through the entire video.
Concealing a full size shotgun down your pants leg is pretty easy if you don't have to walk anywhere.
I see you've grasped the point entirely.
M_P
NMBigfoot02
12-26-09, 14:56
I see you've grasped the point entirely.
M_P
No, I understand what you were saying and I agree, but it was an oversimplification of the video in question. Just wanted to point it out to those who haven't seen it.
Outlander Systems
12-26-09, 15:21
I seem to recall that kid also not moving through the entire video.
Concealing a full size shotgun down your pants leg is pretty easy if you don't have to walk anywhere.
Links or it didn't happen.
People overestimate the difficulty in concealing fighting funs in fighting calibers. They mostly lack the dedication to accomplish the task. They may also lack combinations of high quality gear to make the job easier, forethought in clothing, training, and experience.
There are very, very few circumstances in which an LCP would be the only concealable option. It's a fine gun, but best as a 3rd or 4th. About the only time I would consider it for primary carry is between my cheeks in a speedo. And you don't want to see that.
There are very few places a G26, P239, PM9, or J-frame can't go. Get a couple from this list.
Pat Rogers had a good quote recently worth repeating:
Printing is an issue only if you are a trendy, fashionable type metrosexual.
Wear common clothes and it is not a problem.
NMBigfoot02
12-26-09, 16:02
Links or it didn't happen.
Here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9FF3LQlhBs
He pulls out the shotty at about 0:25.
Heavy Metal
12-26-09, 18:08
In my mind, a J-Frame with .38 plus P's and a Crimson Trace laser are the least gun I would consider carrying.
One the one hand, there are far better choices, on the other, it is easy to throw in a pocket and the gun you got beats the one you left on the nightstand.
I've taken my G26 to places that you would be suprised--no body knew until I told them I had it.
A couple of the "places" asked if I was going to go get it and come back.;)
I would like to add-you are better off carrying a ballpeen hammer than the mouse guns.
gtmtnbiker98
12-26-09, 18:51
I can carry a P2000SK 9mm anywhere I could an LCP and guess what I carry?
I'm a small dude, 5'5 130lbs. I run a trifecta of concealment options. A full size 1911 .45, a G-19, and the miniscule Ruger LCP. Would I opt to always have the 1911? Hell yes! who in their right mind wouldn't? however it's not always a viable option. There are instances where less is more or at least adequate. Sometimes as old drag racers say "you gotta run what you brung" Ideal or not. If your weapon of choice is reliable, and you can hit with it under duress go for it! Stopping a threat is great, sometimes slowing the threat down enough to simply escape and live is good too! Good luck with your choice.
I have found that a lot of the people that advocate "full size gun, all the time" have little to no need to look like a professional or dress in a range of styles and environments and say such things out of the luxury of their position.
I've carried everything from a North American Arms .22 mag to a fullsize .45 1911, and in each case it was the right gun for the situation, and the most gun I could get away with in the situation.
I daily carry a Glock 19, 17, or 34. Lately the only time I carry the 19 is when I'm wearing baggy sweats and carrying it in a pocket. Otherwise I'm carrying a 2nd gen 17 or the 34. I carry religiously, every day, and everywhere. Where there's a will, there's a way. But, I'm also a nightclub doorman and not on the small side, so my carry options aren't really limited.
I picked up a 26 awhile ago with a pocket holster, and I haven't carried it once. I thought of using it as a BUG, but I'm not that paranoid. Yet.
John_Wayne777
12-26-09, 21:55
There are two immutable truths about carrying a gun:
- when you try to carry one every day in all situations there's no such thing as a gun that's small enough, light enough, or convenient enough to carry.
- when it comes time to actually use the weapon to defend your life, there's no such thing as a gun that's big enough.
Everybody can't get away with carrying a Glock 17, four mags, and a backup piece every day of their lives.
Equally true, however, is that most can pack more gun than they think with the right gear and some rather small changes to mode of dress.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-26-09, 22:00
I have found that a lot of the people that advocate "full size gun, all the time" have little to no need to look like a professional or dress in a range of styles and environments and say such things out of the luxury of their position.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I can't argue with this point. I wear a suit for work but I pick it up in uniform at the beginning of the night so I wear sweats into work. Work is the only place I don't carry but I'm sure I could conceal a 19 under it with no problem if I had to.
I can't argue with this point. I wear a suit for work but I pick it up in uniform at the beginning of the night so I wear sweats into work. Work is the only place I don't carry but I'm sure I could conceal a 19 under it with no problem if I had to.
the current trend is for tighter form-fit tailoring- even unbuttoned, it's pretty hard to keep even a sub-compact from printing. especially with the nice, thin, silk and similar jackets. i have a thick wool winter jacket that i often more my 1911 in a pancake with, when i had to dress stuffy often (thankfully a very short period in my life), but i seriously doubt i could even wing a hip holster with any weapon with any of my other jackets. and the better the tailoring, the worse it gets. the best i can do with any of my current suits/jackets is a small pistol in the pocket.
all i have is myself to compare to... but i find it hard to believe it can be done otherwise, and still look sharp. if i had to wear a suit/jacket with any regularity, i'd definately move to a SOTB or appendix IWB, and take the chosen combo with me to the tailor.
QuietShootr
12-27-09, 00:44
I have found that a lot of the people that advocate "full size gun, all the time" have little to no need to look like a professional or dress in a range of styles and environments and say such things out of the luxury of their position.
I've carried everything from a North American Arms .22 mag to a fullsize .45 1911, and in each case it was the right gun for the situation, and the most gun I could get away with in the situation.
Yup, spot on. I CAN'T carry a full size gun at work unless I carry it off body, and my options there would be carry my briefcase everywhere including to the shitter unless it was locked in my desk. That would be suspicious in itself in my office. And Global Security at my office is retired Feebs and military CID/OSI, not mall ninjas.
I own a J-frame .357 for a reason. I am not a mousegun fan. With a 340PD I can have mousegun weight and full Magnum power.
Beat Trash
12-27-09, 05:18
I have found that a lot of the people that advocate "full size gun, all the time" have little to no need to look like a professional or dress in a range of styles and environments and say such things out of the luxury of their position.
I've carried everything from a North American Arms .22 mag to a fullsize .45 1911, and in each case it was the right gun for the situation, and the most gun I could get away with in the situation.
I agree with this statement. But one must also consider the if the gun you settled on is sufficient for the task. I would be almost ok with a 380, if it was in a gun that permitted me to shoot it well. Shot placement would be vital, the smaller the caliber used.
I may get a 380 someday. For now, I own a Kahr PM9 and a S&W 642. For those times I just can not appear to be armed, I find the PM9 will work in a front pocket holster. Certain types of pockets tend to print the handle of the PM9 more. During these times, I find that my S&W 642 J-frame actually prints less.
I would much rather carry something smaller, but I have decided that 38spc/J-frame is my lower limit.
A lot of contradicting truths:
Most people, under most circumstances, can carry a bigger pistol than they realize. It's just a matter of stepping outside your comfort zone and looking at different carry methods, etc. E.g., there are very few places that a G19, M&P compact, P2000, SIG P229 in SmartCarry wouldn't work.
Just because you know you're wearing a gun doesn't mean they know you're wearing a gun. Understand the difference between printing and "I can see something under my shirt if I stand in this one funky position."
Having any functional pistol beats the crap out of not having a functional pistol. Someone carrying a .25 Beretta is far better armed than the guy who left his G34 w/33rd mag back at the house, or the guy whose USP45 is under the front seat of the car he left in the parking lot.
Across the spectrum of potential conflicts that a CCWer may face, there is a pretty narrow band in which a low-capacity .38/.380 won't be enough but a high-capacity 9mm/.45 will be. Can it happen? Absolutely. That's why carrying the biggest, most shootable gun you can conceal is always the best approach. But the "crazed PCP addict who needs to be shot fifteen times in the head with a high-powered handgun" scenario is, contrary to interwebz myth, pretty rare.
Under the limited circumstances in which a tiny gun is all I can carry, I'm perfectly comfortable with my LCP. Make fun of .380 all you want, I've seen too many successful results to think it's useless. It's easier for me to shoot rapidly and accurately than my j-frame. I've got seven rounds instead of five, and with the much faster reload (especially compared to a speed strip) I've got 13 rounds down the barrel in the time I'd get half that through the revolver. The LCP is thinner and lighter, too.
the current trend is for tighter form-fit tailoring- even unbuttoned, it's pretty hard to keep even a sub-compact from printing. especially with the nice, thin, silk and similar jackets. i have a thick wool winter jacket that i often more my 1911 in a pancake with, when i had to dress stuffy often (thankfully a very short period in my life), but i seriously doubt i could even wing a hip holster with any weapon with any of my other jackets. and the better the tailoring, the worse it gets. the best i can do with any of my current suits/jackets is a small pistol in the pocket.
all i have is myself to compare to... but i find it hard to believe it can be done otherwise, and still look sharp. if i had to wear a suit/jacket with any regularity, i'd definately move to a SOTB or appendix IWB, and take the chosen combo with me to the tailor.
I'm not exactly what you would call small, but our jackets at work are cut to cover a radio and cuffs. I've carried my 19 IWB on the hip and concealed it fine. Due to my size, these finely tailored suits you speak of are something I know nothing of. :(
I have found that a lot of the people that advocate "full size gun, all the time" have little to no need to look like a professional or dress in a range of styles and environments and say such things out of the luxury of their position.
I've carried everything from a North American Arms .22 mag to a fullsize .45 1911, and in each case it was the right gun for the situation, and the most gun I could get away with in the situation.
Exactly. I work in an airport, so I'm barred from carrying. I have to wear a shirt and tie and I'm expected to dress professional, not baggy and sloppy. I can at least keep a gun in the car so I'm not defenseless going to and from work. I keep a Glock 22 and a KelTec P-32 locked in the car.
If it's colder weather I can strap on the G-22 if I need to stop somewhere in between. But if it's a 90+ degree summer day, well I'd rather slip on the P-32 than go somewhere unarmed.
To carry a weapon is to prepare yourself for the most difficult competition of your life.....to fight another man(or more than one), most likely to the death. To carry anything less than ideal is to go to war with inferior equipment for the sake of convenience. With the consequences of such an engagement resulting in death or serious injury, you should limit your compromises when ever possible, and make compromises only when you must. The faster that you can inflict large amounts of damage to vital areas of your attacker's body, the more likely you are to not only win the fight, but walk away with less damage to yourself. To do this with a firearm, you need to place your shots rapidly and accurately, but each shot needs to do a significant amount of damage. Your firearm needs to be controllable enough to place those shots rapidly and accurately, and your caliber needs to penetrate deeply and make as large of a hole as possible through commonly encountered barriers. The .38spl+P, 9mm, .40S&W, and .45acp do this well. Calibers smaller than .38spl+P and 9mm do not do this well. The elements of shot placement and caliber effectiveness must both come together, otherwise it may not go too well for you.
The likely hood of most people engaging in the ultimate competition is remote, but should you do so you will fare better if you are over-prepared rather than under-prepared. I like being alive, and the faster you can put someone down the less cut up and shot up you'll be. My smallest carry rigs are a Sig P239 9mm, and a S&W .38spl+P J-frame. There are ways to comfortably carry what you need.......making the effort is worth it. Just one man's opinion......
I have found that a lot of the people that advocate "full size gun, all the time" have little to no need to look like a professional or dress in a range of styles and environments and say such things out of the luxury of their position.
I think there's truth in that.
I prefer to make a distinction between a "full size" gun, and a more desirable fighting gun than a pocket mini. (Both terms, subject definition.)
On the other side of it, and as others note, most folks can carry far more gun than they think they can.
A lot of contradicting truths:
All good stuff.
On the other posts...
Finding a good tailor, with experience working with armed folks, is very helpful in maintaining a professional appearance. Minor tweaks to the cut and drape of a suit jacket can make a huge difference in belt carry. Adjustments to pleats, pocket depth, and thigh trim help with pocket carry. Length, rake, and cuffing of the pant (as well as shoe selection) help with ankle carry.
You might not do a full size gun (ala M9, G17, Government Model) in such modes of dress, but you could do more than an LCP, Tomcat. You have to want to get it done.
Outlander Systems
12-27-09, 16:15
A lot of contradicting truths:
Someone carrying a .25 Beretta is far better armed than the guy who left his G34 w/33rd mag back at the house, or the guy whose USP45 is under the front seat of the car he left in the parking lot.
This was me.
When folks ask me about carrying small guns, I always recommend that they shoot a qualification with it, cold. Todd's FAST, the FAM test, the IDPA Classifier, etc. and compare the results to their performance with a normal gun.
Once they try it and see how hard it is to perform well with back up guns, they have a much better understanding of what they are giving up to get the easier concealment of a pocket gun.
Carry them if you must, but understand that the draw is going to be seconds slower, the groups will have more spread and reloads will take ages. If you still want or need to carry a BUG, that's great, just understand the the limitations of the yourself and the gun.
That reminds me. I need to make my next practice session a snubby-only one.
Gringop
YammyMonkey
12-27-09, 19:09
I have to agree with Todd that there aren't many problems a SmartCarry can't fix. It'll take some getting used to & you might have to have your pants altered, but you can pretty easily get away with a G17/M&P size gun & a reload.
BLACK LION
12-28-09, 15:29
I think digging into a pocket or some other such nook where you have tucked away a tiny pistol, with bad sights, long heavy trigger, no grip, and a cartridge which will penetrate 6" through bare gel in the middle of a SUDDEN VIOLENT ATTACK is more of a liability than an asset.
those little guns are only useful in ranges where you would prob be better off with a blade and the skills to use it or H2H skills.
I think they are marketed specifically to the type of person who feels like a firearm is a magic charm that wards off evil.
at the range that gun can be used in (not even effectively with that underpowered cartridge) we are talking bad breath distance. So while some goblin is smashing your face in with a tire iron your going to go putting your hand in your pocket ?
I think they are ill advised.
I agree, good post....
QuietShootr
12-28-09, 15:51
I have to agree with Todd that there aren't many problems a SmartCarry can't fix. It'll take some getting used to & you might have to have your pants altered, but you can pretty easily get away with a G17/M&P size gun & a reload.
If you're built like a Ken doll, maybe. I already have a gun in that area that precludes carrying a G17 size pistol in there.
BLACK LION
12-28-09, 16:01
If you're built like a Ken doll, maybe. I already have a gun in that area that precludes carrying a G17 size pistol in there.
:eek:
HAHAHAHHHHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAHHHHH....
i can only speak for myself, but my answer to the "what's the smallest gun i can carry" question was a glock 26.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.