View Full Version : Head shot on charging lion saves dudes life
Belmont31R
12-28-09, 02:35
That cat was fast even in slow mo....
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-28-09, 03:21
That second attack, those guy are lucky they didn't shoot each other. Reminds me of when I was hunting a squirrel once, except at 1/50 size.
Note to self: When hunting lions, make sure to afix bayonet.
Kyle Defoor
12-28-09, 06:29
The first video is from the USMC's Combat Hunter Program. An excellant idea that was executed very well. Ivan Carter (www.ivancarter.com) was the lead on that hunt and narrated the piece on Cooper's Color Code. All of the men are professional hunters (PH), i.e.- online.
The second video is not well received in the PH community. Enough said.
The USMC did a good job IDing someone (Ivan) who can relate to high stress situations daily. Ivan is the up and comer in big safari hunts. A protege of Coddington.
The African PHs are usually using an iron sighted, single shot, high caliber rifle on "The Big 5" - Elephnat, Lion, Leopard, Rhino, and Cape Buffalo. This is important for a few reasons.
1. These animals all charge upon being threatened, The Cape being the most aggressive. The Leopard will stalk until dead.
2. .375 caliber or greater is required to penetrate the skin and bone of these animals. That is a big gun to shoot from standing position (most common), and reloads are impossible.
3. The shot has to be a kill shot. Head is common, or high thorasic cavity.
If you ever get a chance to talk to one of these PHs they will tell you that most of the time the "great white hunter" from the U.S. who paid $100,000 to just go on one of these hunts "did a great job". The reality is that the PHs and guides are there to back up the idiot who can't hit or handle his "elephant gun". Most of the guys like Ivan check zero and watch a guy shoot before they head out.
Also, if you ever get a chance to see the full line of Comabt Hunter programs from the USMC they are great, and steal a copy for me- I only have a couple.
KD
damn, I believe my pants would be slightly soiled after that :eek:
Maybe I'm the only one here, but I just don't get sport hunting. I hunt deer and hog for food but I couldn't or wouldn't ever want to kill a lion or other big cat, same for elephants. I just don't get it.
VooDoo6Actual
12-28-09, 07:31
slightly in extremis...
I have hunted all my life and have no desire to ever hunt Africa. For me the North American Continent offers everything I could ever ask for. What frustrates me the most is Safari hunters have zero idea about what they are getting into. Most can’t shoot and are just looking to fill the SCI record book and hang another head on the wall.
Some of the situations are VERY dangerous as the videos show and the gun handling even by the PHs is downright bullshit.
I assure you if the big five where on my list I would not pursue them with a scoped bolt gun. I don’t think I would be comfortable even with a double rifle and express sights. Maybe a short barrel semi in .338 Lapua.
Maybe I'm the only one here, but I just don't get sport hunting. I hunt deer and hog for food but I couldn't or wouldn't ever want to kill a lion or other big cat, same for elephants. I just don't get it.
You are not alone at all.
I can't Imagine myself killing any big Cat. I find myself having too much respect for them. That would have to go for all predetors in my book. Cats, bear, wolf, I don't think I could kill any of them unless it was about to kill me.
I don't get it either. Why kill such a beautiful animal as a Lion?
Kyle Defoor
12-28-09, 09:33
All,
Please don't take my post as an endorsement of safari hunting.
I completely agree that the useless killing of animals is ridiculous. I just wanted to inform everyone of the Corps CH program. It has great info on a variety if subjects pertaining to this site. For the most part , in my opinion big game hunting is a extreme case of posturing.
KD
Alpha Sierra
12-28-09, 09:38
Let me offer a counterpoint to "safari" hunting.
While the meat of anaimals killed on safari cannot be imported back, it is not left to waste.
The meat from ungulates such as antelope, bok, impala, etc. is consumed at camp both fresh and stored frozen, and/or sold at market.
The meat from larger animals such as giraffes, elephants, and the like is also sold at market and/or donated to local villages, charities, and some of it is also eaten at camp.
Gutshot John
12-28-09, 09:46
As a hunter I don't find the notion of hunting lions all that flawed from an ethical standpoint. It's not what I want to go to Africa but I don't see the difference between killing a deer and a lion other than the meat is better on a deer. Most hunters dream of trophies. It may not be a lion, but it might be bear or mountain lion or any number of other magnificent creatures.
The real flaw I find in this is that it seems borderline suicidal and sets up lots of Darwinism jokes and awards.
If the point of this is to train warriors for combat well than I guess there is a legitimate purpose there but I would think hunting as a general practice, even of non-dangerous species like deer is pretty instructive from a tactical point of view.
When people think of Indian warriors they also think of hunters. It was a lifestyle of constant practice for combat. People forget that for more than two hundred years, with limited access to firearms, the Eastern woodlands Indians practiced in centuries of forest hunting and warfare, contained Europeans to the Atlantic coastlands. They also delivered staggering defeats to people Europe's greatest armies, one such battle is about a mile from my house today called "Braddock's Field".
You are not alone at all.
I can't Imagine myself killing any big Cat. I find myself having too much respect for them. That would have to go for all predetors in my book. Cats, bear, wolf, I don't think I could kill any of them unless it was about to kill me.
I don't get it either. Why kill such a beautiful animal as a Lion?
That's three of us actually!!!
Belmont31R
12-28-09, 10:22
As was pointed out earlier a lot of the meat from animals goes to local villages and kept around as camp food. Usually the only thing the hunter gets is the cape and horns.
Also hunters are paying the majority of the cost for the wildlife programs over there. Without sport hunting in Africa most of these programs would not exist, and there would be no desire on the part of the Africans to conserve the wild game over there. It pays for conservation areas, anti-poaching units, parks/game rangers, etc. Some of these animals are going for 100k a pop.
And I don't really care what other people do to get their jollies. As long as they are not committing a heinous crime or destroying shit other people use then have at it. What I don't appreciate about sport hunting is all the shady people tend to flock to it, and become plain dumb. The golden era of the african safari was a long time ago. Now its mostly PH's leading fat rich men around to shoot off bait, and its the PH doing 95% of the work. Even see in some videos the PH will take a shot right after the hunter because they dont trust the hunter to make a good 1st shot.
Thats why I would love to use my 50 BMG to hunt lions....
If the animals are harvested in responsible quantities consistent with good resource management, and the meat of the animal is used rather than discarded, I see no ethical issues in such big game/trophy hunts.
I find the canned hunts for captive species in the US more distasteful and less sporting than the safaris.
On eating... Bear meat is good eating, properly prepared. As is the mountain lion/cougar. I have not had African lion species, but a colleague that has said it is very much like cougar. Other exotics are good, too.
Hunt safe, respect your game, keep it sporting, and don't waste.
Maybe I'm the only one here, but I just don't get sport hunting. I hunt deer and hog for food but I couldn't or wouldn't ever want to kill a lion or other big cat, same for elephants. I just don't get it.
I'd rather shoot them with a camera personally.
David Thomas
12-28-09, 10:51
Awesome video. Thanks for posting.
Not really sure why there exists such a rift between the tactical (for lack of a better word) crowd and hunters. The large number of tactical guys that have a problem with hunting (one form of it or another) and the large number of hunters that have a problem with the "tactical" guns, always astounds me.
I would relish in the opportunity to hunt a lion or any of the African big game except the elephant and the Hippo. However, my choice not to hunt the elephant or Hippo is a personal one, and I would not look down my nose at anyone who chose otherwise. I see no problem with sport hunting if done right.
I am sure some would object to me face shooting an innocent little bunny with a 12 guage, but I will not apologize for having done it.
Also without hunters and their money a lot of the African game would not fare so well. Hunters fund conservation efforts and provide financial incentive to protect the land and protect the animals from poachers.
David Thomas
12-28-09, 11:04
Hunt safe, respect your game, keep it sporting, and don't waste.
I am not arguing with you, but I would like to use your statement to illustrate a point.
I do not eat snakes, coyotes, prarie dogs, nutria, etc...
I do not think that one has to eat his game to justify the hunt.
I am not arguing with you, but I would like to use your statement to illustrate a point.
I do not eat snakes, coyotes, prarie dogs, nutria, etc... but would shoot them all with equal zeal.
I do not think that one has to eat his game to justify the hunt.
Sure, I would object to wasting of meat. However, not all game animals are proper table fare, and that fact does not mean that the animal, therefore, cannot be hunted.
I agree with you. (The justification for the yotes, prairie dogs, etc, is to manage hazards to other habitat, game, and livestock.)
David Thomas
12-28-09, 11:48
Nuisance animals that are a harm at their current levels for the most part. Little different than large African game.
Sure the large African game animals are not a nuisance to you here in the US, but you may have a hard time aguing that point with the locals who run into them while herding cattle, washing clothes, hunting plains game for food, etc...
WOW!!! Great videos, regardless of your stance on hunting African game.
David Thomas
12-28-09, 12:19
.....seriously?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/26/60minutes/main4894945.shtml
"The lion, already down as much as 85 percent in numbers from just 20 years ago, is now in danger of becoming extinct because people are poisoning them with a pesticide to protect their cattle."
Notice this is from a country (Kenya) that has had a 30+ year old ban on hunting and because of that the Lion (and other game) has no value there. They are considered a nuisance and treated as such by the locals.
Do not assume that everyone around the globe shares your values and view points. I could not fathom poisoning the king of beasts like it was a common rat, but the Kenyans see things differently.
another article that may offer additional info:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3756180.stm
"The lion population in Tanzania, it is thought, is the highest in Africa.
This is partly due to the large areas of wilderness lions can roam in but also the Tanzanian government's policy of protecting them and managing them sustainably through controlled hunting."
David Thomas
12-28-09, 12:40
...Neither of those articles did anything at all to support you placing African game in the same category as coyotes...
I do not. Perhaps the point I was trying to make was too far off topic to be relevant. The point was that some people do, not that I do. I have the a healthy amount of respect for the Lion and other African game animals.
My apologies for playing devil’s advocate unnecessarily.
My wife says I am “ disagreeable”
Nevertheless, the articles were also intended to point out the differences in areas that allow hunting and those that do not and what happens to the animals, lions in this case, as a result.
I have no issue with Big Cats or any other Predators. In fact, I could *NEVER* go out of my way to hunt any of them. There is something, I dunno, that prevents me from killing them similar to the fact that something prevents me from uneccessarily killing a fellow human being. I see us (i.e., Man) and Predators as "kindred spirits" in that we both serve the same purpose: cull the herds of the ungulates and vegetarians. If it eats meat I won't touch it. No overwhelming scientific reasons (well, they are full of parasites) other than that I've no desire at all to hunt them.
People who trophy hunt/hunt for the thrill of killing have issues (yes, everyone has SOME issue, I understand) that need to be resolved. A firearm gives us an advantage that is obvious. Yes, it still takes some familiarity with the beast you choose to engage but once you understand their behavior it's "no big deal", relatively speaking. I have a close friend who relishes killing. I love him as a brother but I relish a clean shot just like all of us but I find no humor in the manner in which they die. I do respect ALL life - well, I don't like poisonous snakes (but I don't kill them for the Hell of it).
To each his/her own but we need to evolve spiritually as a species.
I find myself comfortably in both the tactical and hunting communities and would like to take the big five. If you do not, it is of no concern to me. My brother cares little for hunting animals, he is in the Army and the smelly hairy things he is training to kill speak Pashto. I respect that.
All said, I think the tactical community does stand to learn a lot from hunting animals. Depending on who you ask, hunting may translate well into fighting skills, or not at all. I hesitate to think that tracking a living animal, looking at it through a scope, or aligning iron sights on it, and killing it with malice aforethought is an experience that would be detrimental to ones ability to defend oneself, or attack our nations enemies. I see in good hunters the same traits I see in good soldiers- confidence, self reliance and DECISIVENESS.
CarlosDJackal
12-28-09, 20:27
...The other one just in case someone hasn't seen it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CNgwZgoKFc&feature=related
Maybe I'm just a sick individual, but I was actually rooting for the lion in the second video (above).
Maybe I'm just a sick individual, but I was actually rooting for the lion in the second video (above).
I'm with you on this as well.
wedgehead30
12-29-09, 01:14
Maybe I'm just a sick individual, but I was actually rooting for the lion in the second video (above).
Yeah me too. What a magnificent animal. I just don't see the point but different strokes for different folks. I have to give the hunters a little credit, at least they're hunting something that can kill them. So I'm sure the pucker factor is off the meter. I know I'd be cleaning my shorts out after that one.
Wedge
:D
I understand the importance of hunting in Africa, and how the meat for many hunts is used. I have no desire to do so myself, but I also don't hunt deer here or shoot squirrels or whatever.
But I've got a serious problem with the second video - there are numerous wounding shots on that magnificent animal. The kind of shots we'd all slap around a deer hunter for making. If the safari hunter and his guides can't reliably make it a humane kill, they shouldn't have been in a position for the lion to charge.
Maybe I'm just a sick individual, but I was actually rooting for the lion in the second video (above).
I was rooting for the lion in both vids.
The first video is from the USMC's Combat Hunter Program. An excellant idea that was executed very well. Ivan Carter (www.ivancarter.com) was the lead on that hunt and narrated the piece on Cooper's Color Code. All of the men are professional hunters (PH), i.e.- online.
The second video is not well received in the PH community. Enough said.
The USMC did a good job IDing someone (Ivan) who can relate to high stress situations daily. Ivan is the up and comer in big safari hunts. A protege of Coddington.
The African PHs are usually using an iron sighted, single shot, high caliber rifle on "The Big 5" - Elephnat, Lion, Leopard, Rhino, and Cape Buffalo. This is important for a few reasons.
1. These animals all charge upon being threatened, The Cape being the most aggressive. The Leopard will stalk until dead.
2. .375 caliber or greater is required to penetrate the skin and bone of these animals. That is a big gun to shoot from standing position (most common), and reloads are impossible.
3. The shot has to be a kill shot. Head is common, or high thorasic cavity.
If you ever get a chance to talk to one of these PHs they will tell you that most of the time the "great white hunter" from the U.S. who paid $100,000 to just go on one of these hunts "did a great job". The reality is that the PHs and guides are there to back up the idiot who can't hit or handle his "elephant gun". Most of the guys like Ivan check zero and watch a guy shoot before they head out.
Also, if you ever get a chance to see the full line of Comabt Hunter programs from the USMC they are great, and steal a copy for me- I only have a couple.
KD
One of the Platoons in my company was the guinea pig for the Combat Hunter program when they were testing it out. They met Ivan, and from what they told me he was pretty bad ass haha. Apparently he is also a world class Falconer (or whatever they call it)?
[QUOTE=Belmont31R;526574]
Also hunters are paying the majority of the cost for the wildlife programs over there.
-OVER HERE in the U.S. too.
>Many people seem to forget that the Billion Dollar Hunting Industry is responsible for almost all of the conservation programs here in the U.S. and in many other countries abroad. In the U.S. there are many private Organizations who contribute a great deal with no tax generated funds being used.
Without sport hunting in Africa most of these programs would not exist, and there would be no desire on the part of the Africans to conserve the wild game over there. It pays for conservation areas, anti-poaching units, parks/game rangers, etc. Some of these animals are going for 100k a pop.
> Without legal sport hunting in Africa, most if not ALL of the Big Cats would likely already be gone (except for Zoos).
And I don't really care what other people do to get their jollies.
> I Couldn't Agree more.
Even see in some videos the PH will take a shot right after the hunter because they don't trust the hunter to make a good 1st shot.
> Peter Capstick's term "Pay your insurance." Applicable to a variety of situations.
Like others, I too have no immediate plans to go looking for a Lion or Leopard in Africa to shoot. But, would I have any qualms killing one if it threatened me? None whatsoever.
And for those who were rooting for the cat. Just, know that it is a regular occurrence for both PH's and Great White Hunters to become chew toys for the Big Cats of Africa, its just not advertised a great deal because it is bad for potential clientele.;)
Even with a rifle in hand, in the African bush a man is at a definite disadvantage against a large cat. Especially, the Leopard because they don't give the courtesy of a roar before they charge.
IMO, Ethical and responsible hunting is a worthwhile endeavor and assists in the protection of our ecosystem (provides a balance when it is needed).
SkiDevil
Crossgun, (member who was considering the .semi-auto 338 Lapua), I was actually thinking something along the lines of a belt fed 7.62 MG.:eek:
rrpederson
12-29-09, 06:23
yeah uhh, f*** that. if i had no choice i would only go in with some type of armor and something large bore and full auto. preferably belt-fed.
I find myself comfortably in both the tactical and hunting communities and would like to take the big five. If you do not, it is of no concern to me. My brother cares little for hunting animals, he is in the Army and the smelly hairy things he is training to kill speak Pashto. I respect that.
All said, I think the tactical community does stand to learn a lot from hunting animals. Depending on who you ask, hunting may translate well into fighting skills, or not at all. I hesitate to think that tracking a living animal, looking at it through a scope, or aligning iron sights on it, and killing it with malice aforethought is an experience that would be detrimental to ones ability to defend oneself, or attack our nations enemies. I see in good hunters the same traits I see in good soldiers- confidence, self reliance and DECISIVENESS.
We've talked about this a lot locally. Everyone in the tactical community trains and trains and trains, but they have no idea how they'll actually react in a stressful situation until they're in it. Obviously the training is a default level that's pretty reliable for ingraining mechanical actions, but decision making skills in the middle of a furball are difficult to train when the person knows the scenario isn't real.
Everyone's heard of buck fever. I've been through it and seen lots of others in the aftermath of it. It's amazing how it impacts some people, even people you think of as well sorted. When you hunt, particularly for big game, the ultimate goal will result in the death of a living thing. It's a visceral experience, especially when it's up close and personal. I've killed deer as close as 10 feet away and it's always a memorable event.
Spending time setting up your ambush. Reacting when the game doesn't follow the scenario you've envisioned. Calculating the best angle to reach the vital organs for a quick kill. Seeing the impact and the blood. Hearing the noises the animal and it's body make in death. Dressing one out and feeling the tactile sensation of the blood, viscera and fat. Smelling the coppery smell of the blood and other less pleasant odors. Those things and the time spent experiencing them will tell you a little bit about yourself and what you're capable of.
From the time I was old enough to kill a rabbit with an airgun till I left for the Corps, I killed hundreds of animals hunting and trapping. I was pretty good at it. When I came back home, I found I'd lost the drive to kill stuff. It isn't that I no longer could, I just don't feel the need to do it the way I did when I was younger. But I can certainly understand those that do.
These days hunting seems very commercialized. If you don't have the best camo, scents, equipment, hunting lease, guide, it seems you're not part of the "in" hunting set. I despise canned hunts and I think too many of the guys paying big bucks for African safari's are doing it for the wrong reasons.
But I can see why Capstick did it and some still do. It isn't so much the trophies they score as what they learn about themselves. I'd imagine hunting one of the Big 5 would tell you exactly what you're capable of.
If you carry a gun for a living and you've never been tested, you might consider going on at least one hunt. You might find the experience valuable in your tool kit.
CarlosDJackal
12-29-09, 13:57
Yeah me too. What a magnificent animal. I just don't see the point but different strokes for different folks. I have to give the hunters a little credit, at least they're hunting something that can kill them. So I'm sure the pucker factor is off the meter. I know I'd be cleaning my shorts out after that one.
Wedge
:D
I was rooting for the lion in the second video because he truly had the heart of, well, a lion. Despite multiple hits he just kept coming. I hope I have that much moxie when faced with danger. Plus is looked like they were hunting in an enclosed area - not exactly the most sporting. But I agree, it takes a lot of 'nads to face of with something that can bite your head right off. I was surprised they didn't accidentally shoot each other in the process.
John_Wayne777
12-29-09, 14:26
The first video is from the USMC's Combat Hunter Program.
I had no idea such a program existed. An interesting concept.
David Thomas
12-29-09, 14:32
But I can see why Capstick did it and some still do. It isn't so much the trophies they score as what they learn about themselves. I'd imagine hunting one of the Big 5 would tell you exactly what you're capable of.
Ernest Hemmingway’s short story, "The Short and Happy Life of Francis Macomber" is one of my all time favorites. This story touched on or illustrated this issue, along with many others.
For those that have not read it, I encourage you to do so.
A few comments on hunting Africa. though my personal experience is relegated to Namibia and RSA. As well as plains game species , none of the Big five. I've never understood hunting any of the big five other than buffalo.
If there were no sport hunting industry in southern Africa there probably would be very little game left at all. Doubt if there would be any elephants, or rhinos. They would have been all poached out by now. The vast herds of the various plains antelope would be greatly diminished. Killed by snares or set gun traps.
Hunting revenues fuel many anti poaching programs, as well as the local economy of the hunting areas. If there were no hunters , those communities would really suffer. And...other than elephants ......NOTHING in Africa dies of old age. No matter who you are ...... or your position on the food chain....you are eaten by someone else. Nature is far crueler than hunters.
Mainly wanted to pass on that almost nothing is wasted when a game animal is taken. I've seen eland weighing nearly a ton go in one end of a meat house, and all that comes out the exit is a wheelbarrow filled with the contents of the stomach and intestines. Everything else gets used. Most of it by the locals.
Hunting isn't for everyone. Not for the weak of heart for sure. But if you saw what that steer goes through from it's loading into the truck to it's end at a slaughterhouse....you probably wouldn't buy that hamburger either.
Hunt #2 is video from a very controversial "canned" hunt that has been on the net for a few years now. THAT is NOT hunting. That is merely killing an animal in an enclosed area. Personally I despise them and was rooting for the lion.
FN in MT
I was rooting for the lion in the second video because he truly had the heart of, well, a lion. Despite multiple hits he just kept coming. I hope I have that much moxie when faced with danger. Plus is looked like they were hunting in an enclosed area - not exactly the most sporting. But I agree, it takes a lot of 'nads to face of with something that can bite your head right off. I was surprised they didn't accidentally shoot each other in the process.The first lion video was a pretty determined lion also. Look at his right rear leg. It was dangling from a thread and he charged like he had 4 good feet and it didn't slow him down a bit. Both lions had some serious heart. :)
The first lion video was a pretty determined lion also. Look at his right rear leg. It was dangling from a thread and he charged like he had 4 good feet and it didn't slow him down a bit. Both lions had some serious heart. :)
"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself."
sry, but in my humble opinion.
the only way you should go over and "hunt" a lion is if u are gonna kill it with your ka-bar.
anything else is just plane unsporting. how can u feel good about yourself shooting anything that your to afraid to get up close to.
i have alot of experience with big cats, and they are amazing animals, but to want to shoot one for "fun" is one of the dumbest things ive ever heard.
not only is it a waste of time. but most of those species are being forced into extinction. its not enough that we take away there habitat, we have to shoot time too???
we read about some guy getting killed for no reason on this forum once a month. and we all say how horrible it is, and that we will pray for the family and wish swift retribution on the perpetrator.
but no one ever cares what happens to the lions family.
below are cody, and judy. a close friend of mine has an exotic animal rescue.
why anyone would want to hurt any of these creatures is beyond me.
" these picture were taken in the presence of a professional"
cody is a 1200lbs Kodiak bear
judy is a 6 month Bengal tiger
Are you ****ing shitting me? :confused:
no. i dont see the problem with my statement. if you dont care about wildlife thats your freedom.
but i dont see the difference in the evil being perpetrated. wouldnt u agree its murder either way? whether is man on man, man on animal, or animal on man?
if say, a tiger got loose in you home town... and murdered a child. there would be a city wide "tiger" hunt until the animal is brought to justice for the "crime"
if a man in your hometown for some reason murders a child. theres a man hunt until he is brought to justice.
but any joe schmo with enough cash can go over and murder an animal and nothing happens to him.
wheres the justice there?
now you might try and say that there are laws dealing specifically with this sort of thing.
but most of those are either not followed or cant be enforced (i.e. poaching endangered species, Animal welfare law. ect.ect.)
the U.S. has animal moral right acts for a reason.
and if you pull the religious card
(Catholic customs and saints/The feeling is- Man has dominion over the animals- and should use them wisely)
does spending $100,000 on a trip to go shoot some exotic animal for shits and giggles seem wise to you?
now dont get me wrong, im not some activist that for tofu eating lions
or think fur is murder.
but dont we, as the dominant species of this planet, have an obligation to preserve nature as best we can so future generation can enjoy it as much as we have?
I thought I had seen that first video before. They showed a few lion hunts in the Combat Hunter video I saw at Boot Camp. No idea how you'd be able to watch the whole series, but I'd really like to watch it again.
Maybe I'm the only one here, but I just don't get sport hunting. I hunt deer and hog for food but I couldn't or wouldn't ever want to kill a lion or other big cat, same for elephants. I just don't get it.
I am pretty much the same personally, but I however do get it for others. The money and food generated by these hunters who pay tens of thousands of dollars to do their thing are a Godsend to those countries/villages who have legitimate wildlife management programs and not much else. The taxes and fees paid by hunters worldwide are the only reason wild animals still exist in many places.
My ex wife's latest victim paid over a quarter million dollars when everything was said and done for 30 days of a once in a lifetime hunt and the right to attempt harvest the African big five, of which he bagged four of the five and multiple hoofed and grazing type critters. His trophies took over two years to finally be finished and returned to him here in the states.
One thing everyone needs to remember and shout from the roof tops to all. Hunters of both big game and lesser game including varmint hunters and even paper punchers pour millions of dollars every year into wildlife research studies habitat saving wildlife management and are generally the biggest environmentalist group on the planet.
Gutshot John
12-30-09, 10:55
but i dont see the difference in the evil being perpetrated. wouldnt u agree its murder either way? whether is man on man, man on animal, or animal on man?
No, your definition of murder is moronic.
At best you might say it's war (see Darwin), but that's as close as you get.
no. i dont see the problem with my statement. if you dont care about wildlife thats your freedom.
but i dont see the difference in the evil being perpetrated. wouldnt u agree its murder either way? whether is man on man, man on animal, or animal on man?
if say, a tiger got loose in you home town... and murdered a child. there would be a city wide "tiger" hunt until the animal is brought to justice for the "crime"
if a man in your hometown for some reason murders a child. theres a man hunt until he is brought to justice.
but any joe schmo with enough cash can go over and murder an animal and nothing happens to him.
wheres the justice there?
now you might try and say that there are laws dealing specifically with this sort of thing.
but most of those are either not followed or cant be enforced (i.e. poaching endangered species, Animal welfare law. ect.ect.)
the U.S. has animal moral right acts for a reason.
and if you pull the religious card
(Catholic customs and saints/The feeling is- Man has dominion over the animals- and should use them wisely)
does spending $100,000 on a trip to go shoot some exotic animal for shits and giggles seem wise to you?
now dont get me wrong, im not some activist that for tofu eating lions
or think fur is murder.
but dont we, as the dominant species of this planet, have an obligation to preserve nature as best we can so future generation can enjoy it as much as we have?
Your wrong on so many levels that I won't even try to correct you. But your first statement in the post above pretty much sums up your ilk. Simply because someones disagrees with you doesn't mean they do not care about wildlife. BTW is your last name Treadwell by chance:rolleyes: ?
P.S. And no it is not murder, but of course you already know that. I doubt/hope your really not as ignorant of the facts as you seem to want to protray yourself on this topic.
CarlosDJackal
12-30-09, 11:26
...the only way you should go over and "hunt" a lion is if u are gonna kill it with your ka-bar...
We had a saying when I was an Arctic Paratrooper: "THERE'S A FINE LINE BETWEEN HARDCORE AND DUMBASS. I MAY THREAD THAT LINE, BUT I'D BE DAMNED IF I VOLUNTARILY CROSS IT".
Hunting anything that can eat you with just a K-bar is Darwinism at its best. More power to you if you think you can do it. But if they ever post a video of someone that stupid getting mauled and/or eaten I will be sure to point and laugh when I watch it.
IMHO, this is dumber than some "extreme" rollerblader or skateboarder breaking every bone in their body because they decided that making a jump from 2-stories up would be "cool". JM2CW.
the funny thing is that some folks on here are ok with killing deer or cattle, but seem to find some beauty in large predators.:p theyre all animals, and all have a place in the food chain. our brain puts us atop that chain, so we hunt. like some have already said, the finances provided and the meat from these hunts keep the ball rolling in parts of Africa, so i have no problem with it. i cannot afford it, and wouldnt do it if i could, but more power to those who choose to.
John_Wayne777
12-30-09, 13:12
but i dont see the difference in the evil being perpetrated. wouldnt u agree its murder either way? whether is man on man, man on animal, or animal on man?
Shooting an animal is not now, nor will it EVER be "murder".
the funny thing is that some folks on here are ok with killing deer or cattle, but seem to find some beauty in large predators.:p theyre all animals, and all have a place in the food chain. our brain puts us atop that chain, so we hunt. like some have already said, the finances provided and the meat from these hunts keep the ball rolling in parts of Africa, so i have no problem with it. i cannot afford it, and wouldnt do it if i could, but more power to those who choose to.
I'm one of those lifelong hunters who pursues limited species. I can no longer shoot pheasants or rabbits...shot a ton of them as a kid...as we ATE them.
I still pursue whitetails, but seldom shoot one. I'm looking for that 180"+ Boone & Crockett trophy now. Used to shoot several a year ...as we ate them.
Have never pursued bears, mountain goats or sheep. Can't imagine shooting a bear just to tan the hide. I know you can eat them, but the few times I've eaten bear it was greasy and unappealing.
Sheep and goats are hardly threatened but certainly not as commonplace as deer or elk. I pass on them as they mean so much more to other hunters. Let those guys have their chance at them.
FAIR CHASE...ETHICAL hunting of deer , elk or antelope is challenging as well as very stimulating. I have taken dozens of deer, elk and antelope cleanly, with a single shot over the past 20 or 25 years. Have NEVER lost an animal either. If the situation is not perfect, I will pass on the shot.
Not all hunters behave like the fellows in video #2...the canned lion hunt. Many of us are ethical and fair chase to the extreme. And as previously stated. Without hunters and shooters there would probably not be many game animals around to enjoy. We pay the tab. We pay FAR more into the resource than PETA or any of the anti hunting organizations.
FN in MT
How do you feel about this guy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ssh8Vsbvn2A&feature=related
That was a nice shot! I'm not a hunter by any means but 1000 yard shot is no joke any way you slice it.
"How do You feel about this guy"?
He's obviously a very skilled riflemen. The shot didn't appear to be a lucky shot caught on tape.
That said...I am NOT a fan of LR big game hunting. Few hunters have the skill or equipment to CONSISTENTLY make good hits at long range. A slight gust of wind, a small movement by the animal during the slugs time in flight...and now you have a wounded animal....a LONG way away. A bad situation.
FN in MT
and
Dead on.
How do you feel about this guy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ssh8Vsbvn2A&feature=related
Obviously a very skilled rifleman and they discussed the time they spent setting up the shot. But I agree that extreme long range hunting is more about shooting and less about hunting. It doesn't take much if you can do it right over the fence in the shadow of your pickup.
By contrast my longest shot was about 80 yards across a river on a running buck. I watched him come down the riverbank, picked a spot, shot with both eyes open when he came into the opening and dropped him with a hit to the spine. The closest shot was from the base of a frozen tree on a small doe. I literally waited till she turned her head and held the trigger back as I thumbed the hammer on a 50cal BP rifle. I let the hammer slip and shot from the hip as I raised the rifle. The embers from the black powder were hitting her in the side and other than a bleat, she was dead when she hit the ground.
To me, that is hunting. :)
LockenLoad
12-30-09, 22:47
the lion kicked ass the hunters well :(
Lion didn't stand a chance. However if it was just one hunter...I think he would have been a gonner.
Almost like a handgunner facing a knife attack. What was the estimate? 20 feet both die?
CarlosDJackal
12-31-09, 10:11
the funny thing is that some folks on here are ok with killing deer or cattle, but seem to find some beauty in large predators.:p theyre all animals, and all have a place in the food chain...
True. But if the world were ever to go topsie-turvy; which would you rather have backing you up? A single Lion or a herd of deer or cattle? :confused:
David Thomas
12-31-09, 22:44
and
How do you feel about this guy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ssh8Vsbvn2A&feature=related
I like how he "squoze" the trigger.
I fail to see the point, but long range shooting ( I will not call it hunting) does not bother me like the canned lion hunt.
QuickStrike
01-01-10, 05:31
Since everybody likes to see lions get shot so much..
Here's another:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQzLAlVn-qc&feature=related
:D
While I hate excessive violence and gore involving people in movies, pictures, etc. , I can never get tired of seeing charging animals get dropped. All that force and ill intent gets shut down in stunning fashion from a well placed shot/s is pretty neat.
I don't see anything wrong with hunting any animal legally. The hunters actually gives the lion some "worth" to the locals. This "worth" benefits the people living there and so they won't be as inclined to poison, poach ALL the lions to death.
Hunting fees for lions are freakin' costly (tens of thousands I think), so it pays off...
Edit: make that trophy fees + daily fees
QuickStrike
01-01-10, 05:42
True. But if the world were ever to go topsie-turvy; which would you rather have backing you up? A single Lion or a herd of deer or cattle? :confused:
I'd take a herd of cape buffalo. :D
I don't see how some people identify so much with preds like lions. Predators in the wild HATE each other.
Early homonids hated lions too I'd bet. I'm surprised and fascinated how early hobbit sized homos survived in a world full of lions, hunting dogs and leopards.
Nothing is too noble to escape old age and the eventual dismemberment by hyenas and vultures. They kill their own cubs, each other, etc. Life is hard for a lion. Shooting it ain't much worse.
Have seen many discussions on this topic over the years and generally tend to shy away from entering the fray, but the folks that post on M4Carbine tend to more mature, pragmatic and less emotional rhetoric, so here goes.
I am a Westerner. Born and raised in the West. Grew up putting food on the table hunting and fishing. In order for my family to eat, something else had to die, be it animal or vegitable. That is simply the way it works. As to the "ethics" of hunting in today's industrialized/corporate environment, I still maintain that same view/heritage/practice of "grocery shopping the old fashion way". No it is not necessary as I can, like most, simply pay someone else to do the dirty deed and leave me feeling guiltless since it wasn't I who killed it, I simply bought it at the market. I was raised to respect all of God's creatures and have had "Hunter's Remorse" on each occasion of harvesting the food. The "ethic" I was raised with is "if you aren't going to eat it, don't kill it!". Of course that did not apply to varmints and those that would present an immediate threat to life or limb. I have never had any inclination to shoot a bear or mountain lion, although I have eaten both. Just have other preferences so that is how I pursue the undertaking. As a side benefit, much of what I learned hunting/shooting in the outdoors served me well during my stint in the Marine Corps, so it can have a "tactical" benefit.
I have long appreciated that it is the hunters/sportsmen and women who provide the funding for much that we and the non-hunting community enjoy of what remains of our once bountiful legacy. I personally do not "trophy" hunt ( never was able to make large antlers taste worth a darn) but do accept that those who do it are contributing much to the overall maintenance and support of many of the "trophy" species than say an organization like PETA or HSUSA. Those who place any particular animal on a par with or above human life I have little time for. I do understand their appreciation of the animals, just think they take their emotional rhetoric way too far.
So, as has been fairly aired on this thread, it is a very subjective and oft times emotional issue. One's viewpoint has a lot to do with how one grew up and where one currently abides. Viva la differance'!!
Semper Fi!
Just some info on hunting in Africa. I've worked for years in African countries as a PH, Game Ranger, Game Guard, fishing & photo safari guide and filmmaker, etc. I've hunted the animals, protected the animals (at times at great personal risk) and filmed them. I am very pro hunting in Africa.
What most people do not realize is that there is not unlimited wild land for the animals to live on. People often think if you do not hunt the animals they will live in the wilds happily ever after. This is not true. African countries are poor, overpopulated and looking for any way to make $ off of their land. ALL available land is utilized if possible. The most fertile and game rich lands are taken and used for ranching and farming, or other to make $. The first thing the tribes or gov't do is KILL EVERY LIVING THING from elephant to butterfly that will compete with the crops or cattle. The animals that live in parks overflow often times onto this land and are killed. On hunting ranches & gov't leased hunting concessions the animals live the most natural lives possible. In the parks they have millions of tourists driving thru their areas getting unnaturally habituated to people, while in hunting concession areas there is only a tiny handful of people moving thru the area, they naturally fear the people and because the animals are a commodity they are very successfully protected and managed. They live the most natural lives here and if the land was not used for hunting the only other alternative usually is farming, cattle which equals death for all the creatures on this land.
Safari hunting brings in the highest foreign exchange per hectare than any other land use save for mining. Hunting creates very natural habitat for the animals that would otherwise be destroyed for other uses. Hunters cannot over hunt their land or they are hunting themselves out of business. Good game management practices keep the hunters in business and give the animals the best habitat to live in.
You might not want to hunt trophy style hunts your self but please do not condemn them as t with out the hunters those animals would all be dead and the land would as usual be over grazed and inefficiently farmed to a barren waste.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.