View Full Version : Gun buying etiquette
What do people do when they find a much better price for a gun at a reputable Web retailer than offered by their friendly neighborhood gun store? For example, the P30 retails for $989 at a couple local stores, but is available for $879 (CC price, free shipping, no sales tax) online. Factoring in a $30 FFL transfer fee, that's still a $80 difference. It seems very odd that I could ask the same store to handle the FFL transfer instead of buying if from them. Would they take offense, or is this common practice? Does one first ask if they will match the price (so $909 in this case)?
Obviously I'm not the first person to notice this price difference, but I've never bought a gun so I'm interested in what _you_ do.
theJanitor
12-28-09, 21:17
if the price difference is big enough, i order online. but before i commit, i tell my FFL exactly what i'm doing. if he offers to match or lower his price, then i will buy from him. if he doesn't offer, i go ahead with the transfer. a few times, he has told me that the web deal is super, and that i should go for it. i also make it a point to buy the expendable supplies from the local shop.
Ask if they'll match and if not, go for the transfer. Everyone understands an $80 diff. If you're an ass about it, then it becomes a prob. Good luck.
I would politely ask if they can match the price or at least meet me in the middle. If not, I would do the transfer. In general, dealers like transfers because it's easy money.
They're a business, not a friend. It won't hurt their feelings if you do a transfer. Life is too short to overpay for a gun.
SWATcop556
12-28-09, 21:41
I prefer to buy locally if I can but if the price is too good and the local dealer can't match it then I buy online.
No one can fault you for saving money. If its more than $100 I go with the best price. I wouldn't baulk too much at $80 but thats me. I like keeping my money local and helping the small businesses.
RogerinTPA
12-28-09, 21:43
Do your research on a particular firearm first.
Find a FFL in your area with a reasonable "transfer" fee.
Find a good price online and purchase, include the number of your FFL and address, on your order form.
Pass the background check once it arrives at your FFL, pay transfer fee.
NOTE: Most gun store employees are full of shit. Most product is marked up 25-40%.
To hell with etiquette, but be polite. The gun shop is providing a service, that's it. If they were able to match, most wouldn't be shopping online.
What do people do when they find a much better price for a gun at a reputable Web retailer than offered by their friendly neighborhood gun store? For example, the P30 retails for $989 at a couple local stores, but is available for $879 (CC price, free shipping, no sales tax) online. Factoring in a $30 FFL transfer fee, that's still a $80 difference. It seems very odd that I could ask the same store to handle the FFL transfer instead of buying if from them. Would they take offense, or is this common practice? Does one first ask if they will match the price (so $909 in this case)?
Obviously I'm not the first person to notice this price difference, but I've never bought a gun so I'm interested in what _you_ do.
Keep in mind wholesalers advertise on the net. So you are seeing dealer price. Thing is to GET that dealer price, in most cases you have to be a FFL. And of course people assume those internet prices are "retail."
For example you believe retail on a P30 is $989.00, close but it is actually $1,005.00
Now dealer price is $796.84 and it will ship 2nd day ($45) air so a dealer pays about $840 for a gun you expect to buy for about $880 so you think the dealer should be ok with a $40 profit on a handgun or about 5%. This might be ok if a person sold 20 handguns a day. Problem is nobody moves that many handguns in a day except for wholesalers.
And no firearm business in the world can sustain itself on 5% markups.
The reality is your gun store will charge what they need to charge in order to stay in business. If they charge too much they will soon be out of business, if they charge too little they will soon be out of business. And sometimes no matter what they do, they simply can't stay in business because they can't sell enough guns no matter what kind of pricing they have. And that is why gun stores go out of business a lot.
In the 10 years I've been a dealer I've seen dozens of people get their FFL and not renew. Many discovered they actually bought guns cheaper when they weren't a FFL once they compared what they paid locally to what they paid as a dealer plus operating costs.
Now from a customer POV obviously a transfer dealer who charges $30 for whatever deal you find is your best option. But keep in mind many dealers don't do transfers, especially on new guns and especially from wholesalers. So if you can find one, you have found the best deal for you. But if all you have locally is Fred's Gun Shop, you shouldn't expect Fred to undermine his own business and profits simply because you have a copy of Shotgun News or an internet connection.
And if you don't think it is fair to pay Fred's prices, then perhaps you should pull your own FFL.
ChicagoTex
12-28-09, 23:16
I've found more and more dealers becoming increasingly hostile to the business of transferring guns purchased from other sellers through them.
I have two local gun shops in the area - one flatout refuses to do transfers under any circumstances (claiming too many guns from CDNN were showing up without the name of the buyer with them or something like that... it sounds like a load to me.) and the other is willing to do a transfer provided:
1. that the shipper is an FFL
2. that the shipper faxes their FFL to them prior to sending, calls them, and they verify verbally the gun is being sent.
and 3. that I pay $35 for them to look at my CHL and sign off on it... :eek::rolleyes:
After running into all that I just sort of gave up on buying online. I realize if I drove 20+ miles I could probably find an FFL somewhere who'd be willing to do transfers without and insane amount of red tape and ridiculous fees - but it just seems like too much of a hassle to me.
Robb Jensen
12-28-09, 23:22
What do people do when they find a much better price for a gun at a reputable Web retailer than offered by their friendly neighborhood gun store? For example, the P30 retails for $989 at a couple local stores, but is available for $879 (CC price, free shipping, no sales tax) online. Factoring in a $30 FFL transfer fee, that's still a $80 difference. It seems very odd that I could ask the same store to handle the FFL transfer instead of buying if from them. Would they take offense, or is this common practice? Does one first ask if they will match the price (so $909 in this case)?
Obviously I'm not the first person to notice this price difference, but I've never bought a gun so I'm interested in what _you_ do.
Where I work we do not price match. We have no reason to. What we so offer is to do transfers if the buyer wants to save a few bucks.
What we do offer is a lifetime no charge repair service (as long as the store is in business). If your gun breaks and it was purchases at our store (not just transferred) it's repaired free of charge to the buyer. This includes the shipping charges which can be $50+ back to the manufacturer. If you get a new gun from the manufacturer as a replacement (which would be a transfer since a new serial number, this would normally $32) then that is free of charge.
We also install any part purchased from us free of charge.
Does the online retailer offer this?
It costs more money to run a brick and mortar store than some guy in his garage or warehouse just selling guns to people and sending them to real retail dealers. Or guys who have FFLs but no store just a table 3-4 days a month at a gun show. This extra overhead is what causes the brick and mortar store to have a higher price for the same thing.
According to the VA State Police transaction center we're the fourth busiest FFL holder in the state. (we're non-commissioned 4 full time and 15 part time employees) The top three FFLs for #s of transactions are the Wal-Marts combined, The Bass Pro shops combined, and Green Top. So it's safe to assume it's excellent customer service as the reason for our success.
Of the last six pistols purchased, three were direct from the manufacturers, one from a friend with a counter transfer, and the last two from Glockmeister in AZ.
I've found more and more dealers becoming increasingly hostile to the business of transferring guns purchased from other sellers through them.
I have two local gun shops in the area - one flatout refuses to do transfers under any circumstances (claiming too many guns from CDNN were showing up without the name of the buyer with them or something like that... it sounds like a load to me.) and the other is willing to do a transfer provided:
1. that the shipper is an FFL
2. that the shipper faxes their FFL to them prior to sending, calls them, and they verify verbally the gun is being sent.
and 3. that I pay $35 for them to look at my CHL and sign off on it... :eek::rolleyes:
After running into all that I just sort of gave up on buying online. I realize if I drove 20+ miles I could probably find an FFL somewhere who'd be willing to do transfers without and insane amount of red tape and ridiculous fees - but it just seems like too much of a hassle to me.
My firearms purchases are mostly online and I have a friend who is a Class 3 dealer, FFL etc. He does not charge me one red cent and on occasion I help him at the local gun show which he does as a hobby!:D Unfortunately not all of us have access to stores like the one GotM4 is referring to.
I'm in the peoples republic of Maryland and the Gun Dealers in my area seem to mostly want to charge close to list prices on Handguns. I'm willing to pay a little extra to support the local dealers and I have paid more knowing I could have gotten a better deal. Gotm4 works at Virginia Arms and they certainly can justify their prices if they are offering all those additional services. I have 2 or 3 online FFL's that blow everyones prices out of the water and they are great to deal with, I also have an FFL local to me that charges me 30 bucks for the transfer.
Some Brick and Mortor dealers get a chip on their shoulder if you ask them if they can get a little sharper because I can get it way cheaper on the net. I even had the owner of a local gun shop tell me he paid the sticker price on his new Truck because he doesn't haggle when he buys anything. He's a dumb ass or full of shit.
I let em eat hamburger but if they want steak someone else can pay that check.
Most sellers are used to dealing with people who like to haggle , and they may like it themselves. One approach is to not mention the online price, just say " I would buy that gun for $xxx.oo.
That is very different from saying, give me a good price, or what price will you give me? You are committing to buy if he meets your price. Most people that sell like that approach. They will say, OK or counter offer. There are a lot of reasons you may only want to pay $xxx.00, on line pricing is but one.
I have bought guns from reputable sponsors from this sight, however I buy 80% of my guns from local shops, and they all are happy to meet my reasonable needs. I buy 80% of my accessories online.
I have a home FFL nearby that I use when I order something that I can't get locally, or when it's too cheap to pass up online. I never liked the idea of going through a local shop.
For most items, I can find them from the four or five big local dealers who set up at gun shows for about the same price as Buds, without having to bother with the transfer process (aside from getting the NICS check at their table, of course).
There's nothing wrong with asking a dealer to negotiate on price if you can find a better price elsewhere. Just remember that if you piss off all the local FFLs, you're screwed.
The FFL I deal with has a policy against allowing xfer of any NIB gun from another dealer or distributor if their shop has one in stock. In other words, if they've got one on the shelves, they're not letting you undercut their prices.
They also charge $100 for a transfer. That's right, $100.
These changes came about specifically because so many people started using the online warehouses to save $50 on a gun, and the shop saw its sales drop. Contrary to popular belief among the gun-buying public, most FFLs aren't in business as a public service. They actually run a business and want to make a profit.
gotm4 explained it perfectly. There is a benefit to buying from your local FFL in terms of face to face service, etc. The other thing to keep in mind is that if your local FFL goes out of business, it's going to get really hard to buy any guns.
If you want keep the local shop in business they have to get your business. I do buy some big dollar items online to save money, but i want the local shops around and try to keep most of my money close to home.
theJanitor
12-29-09, 10:18
The FFL I deal with has a policy against allowing xfer of any NIB gun from another dealer or distributor if their shop has one in stock. In other words, if they've got one on the shelves, they're not letting you undercut their prices.
They also charge $100 for a transfer. That's right, $100.
there's a local shop with that same policy. it's understandable and i either work with him, or i don't . his pricing fits his business plan, and may not necessarily fit mine.
that's why i tell my usual FFL exactly what i'm doing, how much i'm paying, etc. and I don't ask him for a reduction on his part. If he's got leeway on his profit margin and wants to help out a good customer, he will offer. if he can't, or doesn't want to offer, then he goes through with a profitable transfer, usually around $50.
also remember that some shops don't want to open the pandora's box, with regards to pricing, price matching, etc. if they match the internet price for a couple of customers, soon EVERYONE will be in the shop asking for price matching. then the profit schedule of the shop becomes dictated by the internet, and not the shop itself. each shop has it's own unique set of expenses that it needs to be covered. internet pricing doesn't always cover that.
edit to add: i haven't transferred in a stock pistol in a long time. i normally only buy custom 1911's, rifles, etc. so the shops don't really care what i bring in, because they don't stock stuff like that
This exactly the type of feedback I was looking for.
I especially appreciate Got4m's explanation why it's in my interest to buy from his shop, as opposed to just saying "our costs are higher." Lifetime local support is valuable so it makes sense to factor that into the decision.
Based on this exchange the situation I will avoid is where I try to get a better price at a local store and if unsuccessful ask if they will do an FFL transfer for the same gun from [Internet FFL]. Better to walk away and do the transfer with someone else.
I'm lucky enough to live close to Got4m's shop and they were the friendliest and most helpful of the four stores I've been in over the last couple months. They just need a range and gun rentals and it would be perfect.
I prefer to buy locally if I can but if the price is too good and the local dealer can't match it then I buy online.
No one can fault you for saving money. If its more than $100 I go with the best price. I wouldn't baulk too much at $80 but thats me. I like keeping my money local and helping the small businesses.
i'm the same- saving <$100 doesn't concern me enough that i wouldn't support local business. but there's only two FFLs in my Fudd town- Walmart and The Decoy Barn, which only stocks shotguns, shotshells, duck decoys and blaze-orange camouflage gear (and it's actually a pretty big shop).
if someone opened a local shop and sold anti-personel guns and gear, and had acceptable customer service, i'd buy local every time. as it is, i haven't purchased a firearm or receiver or even a piece of kit locally in about 6 years.
as far as the OPs question - FFLs offer transfers knowing people will find better deals online. they're still making almost as much on the transfer (usually) as they would make on profit on a handgun, but for half the effort of ordering and inventorying stock. so if they're cool doing transfers, that's still supporting a local business.
I prefer to support my favorite dealer(s) whenever possible, one in particular. An $80-100 difference isn't enough to send me online. Most guns I buy, I keep. If I have them 5 years, that's $16-20 a year difference, or one box of ammo, a couple trips to McDonalds, etc.
I have another dealer on hand to do transfers through when needed. That one is currently free, but won't be free forever.
I have a few practices that seem to help my position.
- I don't waste my dealer's time. I do my pricing, tech, and performance research beforehand. I ask few questions. I don't paw the gun endlessly. I take up very little of their time.
- When haggling, I ask if the list price on a gun is their best price. No BS. No low-balling. No "but X has it for..." The reply is always a better deal. If I've gone so far as to ask about something, it's likely leaving with me and they know it.
- If I'm seen in the store at all, I'll be seen at the cash register. It might only be a box of ammo or some small widget, but I want the dealer to know that I'm leaving money for him every time I'm there. I'm in my favorite shop once a week.
Good dealer and regular customer interactions are a grooming process for both. Like other businesses and relationships, what you can expect over time is different than on your first few visits. Many folks simply treat their local dealer like they were just another booty call.
I try to support our local dealers.
After shipping and FFL fees, the difference is not all that much. In the case of my recent M&P purchase, the cost is sometimes less than online. If my favorite dealer can't get an item he is more than happy to take in a transfer should I decide to go that route.
Alpha Sierra
12-29-09, 12:31
I prefer to support my favorite dealer(s) whenever possible, one in particular. An $80-100 difference isn't enough to send me online. Most guns I buy, I keep. If I have them 5 years, that's $16-20 a year difference, or one box of ammo, a couple trips to McDonalds, etc.
I have another dealer on hand to do transfers through when needed. That one is currently free, but won't be free forever.
I have a few practices that seem to help my position.
- I don't waste my dealer's time. I do my pricing, tech, and performance research beforehand. I ask few questions. I don't paw the gun endlessly. I take up very little of their time.
- When haggling, I ask if the list price on a gun is their best price. No BS. No low-balling. No "but X has it for..." The reply is always a better deal. If I've gone so far as to ask about something, it's likely leaving with me and they know it.
- If I'm seen in the store at all, I'll be seen at the cash register. It might only be a box of ammo or some small widget, but I want the dealer to know that I'm leaving money for him every time I'm there. I'm in my favorite shop once a week.
Good dealer and regular customer interactions are a grooming process for both. Like other businesses and relationships, what you can expect over time is different than on your first few visits. Many folks simply treat their local dealer like they were just another booty call.
This ^
Building a relationship with a good store helps in many ways. I have been notified of rare and hard to find S&W revolvers in inventory before they are placed on the shelf, just because I tend to follow the same MO as Skintop.
It works both ways.
I flat out do not price shop when it comes to guns and accessories. I've done the very best I can to support the local dealer. I even try to sell the very same guns back through consignment so they can "double-dip". :D
However, what I do shop, is time. If the product is not in stock or is going to take more than a few weeks to order, then I have to consider alternative sources.
4 full time and 15 part time employees
:eek: No wonder I feel like such a newb when I come in these days. Folks giving me the eye like I'm too young to even be in the store.
- I don't waste my dealer's time. I do my pricing, tech, and performance research beforehand. I ask few questions. I don't paw the gun endlessly. I take up very little of their time.
I don't think I use enough time. I'm typically out of the store in less than 5 minutes. I don't bullshit at all, don't have any questions unless it's something I've never seen before, and I only touch stuff to check the DA trigger and reset or make sure I can reach the controls on non-AR rifles. Maybe look through the occasional ACOG.
For me, it depends on price. If I'm only going to save $50 or so, I won't bother with a transfer. I don't mind supporting a dealer if his prices are reasonable. I buy my Glocks over the counter because once you factor in the transfer fee and shipping, I won't save a lot of money.
ARs are another matter. Most of the dealers around me carry Oly, DPMS and BM primarily. There is one outfit that has a lot of nicer stuff like Colts, LMTs, DDs, etc. But their prices are absurd. This particular shop had a DDM4 for $2200, when you can buy them all day long for $1500.
Bottom line: I want my local shops to stay in business, and I support them when I can, but I won't let them bend me over the rail either.
In your case, $80 isn't so big a gap. You can ask him to pitch in a box of ammo or two, or maybe an extra mag. The dealer may not be able to match or beat the price, but with a little negotiation he might be able to close the gap.
What do people do when they find a much better price for a gun at a reputable Web retailer than offered by their friendly neighborhood gun store? For example, the P30 retails for $989 at a couple local stores, but is available for $879 (CC price, free shipping, no sales tax) online. Factoring in a $30 FFL transfer fee, that's still a $80 difference. It seems very odd that I could ask the same store to handle the FFL transfer instead of buying if from them. Would they take offense, or is this common practice? Does one first ask if they will match the price (so $909 in this case)?
Obviously I'm not the first person to notice this price difference, but I've never bought a gun so I'm interested in what _you_ do.
You can print out the deal and try taking it to the local dealer and see if they can match it. Keep in mind though, they will still have to charge you sales tax.
The local FFL dealer's are generally going to have a lot of overhead costs so keep that in mnd when talking prices.
One other thing to consider is if you have no more local FFL's to do transfers through, how will you buy a gun?? Throwing them a bone once and while is not a bad idea.
C4
Contrary to popular belief among the gun-buying public, most FFLs aren't in business as a public service. They actually run a business and want to make a profit.
gotm4 explained it perfectly. There is a benefit to buying from your local FFL in terms of face to face service, etc. The other thing to keep in mind is that if your local FFL goes out of business, it's going to get really hard to buy any guns.
BINGO! ;)
C4
John_Wayne777
12-29-09, 14:39
What do people do when they find a much better price for a gun at a reputable Web retailer than offered by their friendly neighborhood gun store?
To me it depends on who your neighborhood gun store is. My favorite local gunstore went out of business years ago. I got to know the owner and even went shooting with him now and then. He was a good guy working hard in a really bad business. I could trust him completely. I could ask him to get something and I knew he would get it to me at a price fair to me and to him.
He was recalled into the military and last I knew was working in the Pentagon.
Since then I've yet to find a local dealer as knowledgeable and fair as he was. These days I just use a local FFL to do transfers for guns I buy from other dealers like Grant or Robb. The local FFL is a sporting goods section of a large co-op outfit in town that does a lot of sales to the local population. They sucked for a long time. The first transfer I did with them was a VEPR...and when the fat bastard behind the counter opened the box he almost shat his pants because it was a "machinegun".
:rolleyes:
They are better these days since a decent guy took over when the fat bastard retired...but they are selling Century AK's for 1,000 dollars. No-thank-you.
If you have a GOOD FFL in the area, by all means support them. The gun business is a hard business (low profit margin, high headache) to be in and every little bit helps. If most of the dealers in your area are flaming jackasses who treat you badly, you're under no moral obligation to do anything for them. It's best to try and develop a relationship with a dealer if possible. There are enormous benefits to being on friendly terms with a guy who has an FFL. As soon as I can find that again in my area, I'll be all over it.
I have a few Gun Shops in my area,unfortunantly one is owned by a total asshole that has lost his FFL and had to have his wife get an FFL to stay in business and the other runs a quality shop but his prices are right at list or maybe just below. They are usually pretty busy and they have many customers willing to pay whatever is asked. This makes it difficult for me to buy from them since the owner personally told me not to ask him to negotiate the prices. We all have a choice in how or who we buy from the same way the dealers set the prices and decide if or when they give a discount.
I'm in sales and have competitors and if I took that stance I better be ready to take the good with the bad...And this shop doesn't provide the additional services that Virginia Arms does so my comments are not directed to Rob and Bernie.
I have driven over 100 miles to buy uppers made by Rob and in my experience are Top Notch for a brick and Mortor shop.
I buy most of my guns locally. After shipping and transfer fee the difference is usually 50 bucks or less. Its worth that much to me to not have to wait and to support the local shop.
There are many reasons to have an FFL who will just transfer your gun purchases. I use a pawn and gun shop that does not sell new guns. He sells used guns and is not concerned that I use him just for FFL transfers, which are a big part of his business. He does my transfers for $36, not bad here in the big city, and discounts multiple transfers done at the same time.
I have a local shop that takes good care of me on the new gun purchases I make. I would not insult my regular guy with asking him to do an FFL transfer on a gun he sells. There are a lot of good deals to be had on the internet and those are usually used guns I have the pawn shop transfer for me. Sometimes thay are new guns that my guy doesn't carry. They know me by name at each place.
It's like having a wife and a mistress, only neither of them bitches at me.
It's like having a wife and a mistress, only neither of them bitches at me.
BOTH of them bitch at you? i thought the whole purpose of the mistress was to get the 'tang without the bitchbitch.
I try to support the local shops but there are cases where price plus shipping is waaay better compared to the shops that try to sell Cetme's for $1,000, Keltec Sub 2000s for $700, GSGs for $650, stripped lowers for $250 etc.
varoadking
12-29-09, 18:40
They're a business, not a friend. It won't hurt their feelings if you do a transfer. Life is too short to overpay for a gun.
I have a far different take on this and as you can see, I don't mind sharing my opinion.
I do agree with you on two points - they're a business and maybe they won't get their feelings hurt, but they're not going to consider you a valued customer...I know I wouldn't...and who's gonna handle your needed transfers once they close down from being cheaped-out of their core business.
I used to have a local dealer that I frequented, but once the only salesperson I trusted went into another line of business, my business has gone almost exclusively to what I like to refer to as "my gunshop."
I consider the people at "my gunshop" to be my friends and I hope they consider me to be one of theirs. That's why I drive 4 hours round trip to buy from them...and sometimes just to shoot the shit.
To illustrate my point - I have had more than 100 firearm transactions with this one company in the past 7 years, most of them in the past 4 years. All of my other gun transactions combined over that same period fall well short of that number. They are good enough to handle transfers for me on pieces they do not stock, and they sell consignment goods for me...and they do a damned good job of it at reasonable prices.
I would no more transfer in a NIB item that they stock just to save $100 than I'd buy an XD because it was $100 less than a Glock. I'm sure they would accept a transer on a NIB piece they stock...I'm just not about to ask them to.
If something were to happen to me - which nearly did earlier this year - my wife has their phone number and she's to call them to handle the sale of my collection...less the pieces she and the girls may want to keep. I know I can trust them to handle the matter with her best interest being their top priority.
I do buy ammo on-line, at gun shows and at WalMart. Ammo is dispensable...friendships are not. Besides..."my gunshop" never seems to have any ammo... :p
From where I sit...life's too short to let a few bucks come between friends...
varoadking
12-29-09, 18:54
...what you can expect over time is different than on your first few visits.
It's what you make of it...sometimes it can be love at first sight...
For me...if it's not...there's generally no second date...
Robb Jensen
12-29-09, 19:51
I consider the people at "my gunshop" to be my friends and I hope they consider me to be one of theirs. That's why I drive 4 hours round trip to buy from them...and sometimes just to shoot the shit.
Yes G. you are a good friend and mentor and a very valued customer. See you tomorrow!
varoadking
12-29-09, 20:02
Yes G. you are a good friend and mentor and a very valued customer. See you tomorrow!
LOL...I'd have settled for 1 out of 3. See ya tomorrow, Robb...
I try to buy local. When I'm looking for a new gun I call around to all the local dealers within an hour of me. If they have it in stock and I'm getting hosed I buy from them. If I think they're a little high I try for a better price. If I cann't get a gun locally at a decent price I order it online and have it sent to a local FFL without a brick and mortar shop. About the only thing I cann''t get locally if I hunt around is decent AR lowers and anything H&K. Beyond that I can ussually find what I'm looking for at a price I'm willing to pay.
I ussually don't mind paying another 50-100 to get the gun I want the day I find it either.
IMO, there are a lot more shops like the above than there are shops like VA Arms. I understand that the building and inventory cost money, but that is no reason to expect people to pay a 60% markup.
I guess you've never bought any jewelry. Or watches. Or clothes. Sixty percent is nothing compared to what those items get. Part of that is because -- much like gun shops -- places selling jewelry and clothing often buy substantial inventories for customers to look at. But they know they won't turn anywhere near 100% of that inventory over in the short term.
Let's suppose GunUSA, maker of the world's finest and most reasonably priced handguns, has ten different models. The dealer price on each of them is $500. My gun shop buys one of each; that's a $5,000 outlay. We'll go with your number of 60% for convenience, so that's a retail of $800. The shop has to sell seven of the ten guns just to make any profit.
How many gun shops do you see that turn over 70% of their firearms inventory every month?
Then, from that wonderful profit, the shop needs to pay its lease; insurance; licenses; legal fees; payroll; utilities; etc. After all of that, then maybe the crazy shop owner actually wants to make some money himself, too.
The argument that making $25 is better than making nothing simply fails. From a long term business standpoint, it probably makes much more sense to lose that piddly $25 than to flush your entire pricing structure down the toilet.
I guess you've never bought any jewelry. Or watches. Or clothes. Sixty percent is nothing compared to what those items get. Part of that is because -- much like gun shops -- places selling jewelry and clothing often buy substantial inventories for customers to look at. But they know they won't turn anywhere near 100% of that inventory over in the short term.
Let's suppose GunUSA, maker of the world's finest and most reasonably priced handguns, has ten different models. The dealer price on each of them is $500. My gun shop buys one of each; that's a $5,000 outlay. We'll go with your number of 60% for convenience, so that's a retail of $800. The shop has to sell seven of the ten guns just to make any profit.
How many gun shops do you see that turn over 70% of their firearms inventory every month?
Then, from that wonderful profit, the shop needs to pay its lease; insurance; licenses; legal fees; payroll; utilities; etc. After all of that, then maybe the crazy shop owner actually wants to make some money himself, too.
The argument that making $25 is better than making nothing simply fails. From a long term business standpoint, it probably makes much more sense to lose that piddly $25 than to flush your entire pricing structure down the toilet.
I think in the current market a small gun dealer that is not selling online is not gonna make it unless they have almost no overhead. From a retail standpoint even walmart, lowes and target all see the need for online sales. Aas overpriced as they are Gander Mountain has started doing firearms sales online. Online sales allow for you to sell in such a high volume you can sell cheaper.
Personally, as a buyer I'm more likely to go back to the guy that will ocassionally be happy to make only $25 on a gun transfer and pay twice as much as I would anywhere else for ammo and gear. Provided they had good customer service and selection.
As others have said the biggest problem with the local dealers around here is they don't stock gear worth a darn. It was the same way when I lived in the St Louis area. Nobody has decent holsters or mag pouches. High end optics are prettymuch an online only thing around here as well. I have to drive over an hour to the nearest Gander mountain just to find different patches then the ones they sell at walmart because the local guys don't stock them.
Obviously it dosen't pay to stock gear you're not gonna sell. But with the popularity of IDPA you'd think you could buy a holster besides Uncle Mikes. Gear like that is where the local guy shines. It's hard to beat the local guy charging 20% more for sub $200 accessories when shipping charges ussually come real close to the price difference. Same thing with cleaning gear, ammo and targets. But you cann't hardly find any of that stuff in stock at most local dealers in my area.
I think in the current market a small gun dealer that is not selling online is not gonna make it unless they have almost no overhead. From a retail standpoint even walmart, lowes and target all see the need for online sales. Aas overpriced as they are Gander Mountain has started doing firearms sales online. Online sales allow for you to sell in such a high volume you can sell cheaper.
You may very well be right. For quite a while now, the industry as a whole has been worried that places like Bud's could have a pretty negative long-term effect.
Because if your prediction above is correct, where does that leave us? For many people, the only FFL available within driving distance will be a big box store. And we all know what happens then. Remember KMART? They used to sell guns. But pressure was put on them and they stopped.
They sell any handguns at the Wal-Mart near you? I'm pretty sure the answer is no. And they won't do an FFL transfer for you, either.
Like I said earlier, folks who want to save $100 today by buying online are just setting themselves up for failure when their local FFL closes its doors.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-30-09, 16:06
Xfers are for used guns and exotica.
You may very well be right. For quite a while now, the industry as a whole has been worried that places like Bud's could have a pretty negative long-term effect.
Because if your prediction above is correct, where does that leave us? For many people, the only FFL available within driving distance will be a big box store. And we all know what happens then. Remember KMART? They used to sell guns. But pressure was put on them and they stopped.
They sell any handguns at the Wal-Mart near you? I'm pretty sure the answer is no. And they won't do an FFL transfer for you, either.
Like I said earlier, folks who want to save $100 today by buying online are just setting themselves up for failure when their local FFL closes its doors.
Correct.
I know a lot of dealers that won't stock certain guns because BUD's sells guns so cheap sometimes.
C4
I have a far different take on this and as you can see, I don't mind sharing my opinion.
I do agree with you on two points - they're a business and maybe they won't get their feelings hurt, but they're not going to consider you a valued customer...I know I wouldn't...and who's gonna handle your needed transfers once they close down from being cheaped-out of their core business.
I used to have a local dealer that I frequented, but once the only salesperson I trusted went into another line of business, my business has gone almost exclusively to what I like to refer to as "my gunshop."
I consider the people at "my gunshop" to be my friends and I hope they consider me to be one of theirs. That's why I drive 4 hours round trip to buy from them...and sometimes just to shoot the shit.
To illustrate my point - I have had more than 100 firearm transactions with this one company in the past 7 years, most of them in the past 4 years. All of my other gun transactions combined over that same period fall well short of that number. They are good enough to handle transfers for me on pieces they do not stock, and they sell consignment goods for me...and they do a damned good job of it at reasonable prices.
I would no more transfer in a NIB item that they stock just to save $100 than I'd buy an XD because it was $100 less than a Glock. I'm sure they would accept a transer on a NIB piece they stock...I'm just not about to ask them to.
If something were to happen to me - which nearly did earlier this year - my wife has their phone number and she's to call them to handle the sale of my collection...less the pieces she and the girls may want to keep. I know I can trust them to handle the matter with her best interest being their top priority.
I do buy ammo on-line, at gun shows and at WalMart. Ammo is dispensable...friendships are not. Besides..."my gunshop" never seems to have any ammo... :p
From where I sit...life's too short to let a few bucks come between friends...
Right you are. And we FFL dealers like you as a customer and will go OUT OF OUR WAY to help you with things.
I have about 10 or so local customers that could come into my shop and could ask for ANY ITEM at my cost and they would get it. Transfers on FFL and NFA items? FREE. Gun repair or armorer work? FREE. 5 hours of one on one training on my personal range? FREE. Shoot my ammo while receiving the free training? FREE.
Making a bond with your local FFL dealer is generally a good idea (as you can see). ;)
C4
You may very well be right. For quite a while now, the industry as a whole has been worried that places like Bud's could have a pretty negative long-term effect.
Because if your prediction above is correct, where does that leave us? For many people, the only FFL available within driving distance will be a big box store. And we all know what happens then. Remember KMART? They used to sell guns. But pressure was put on them and they stopped.
They sell any handguns at the Wal-Mart near you? I'm pretty sure the answer is no. And they won't do an FFL transfer for you, either.
Like I said earlier, folks who want to save $100 today by buying online are just setting themselves up for failure when their local FFL closes its doors.
I don't see being unable to go to a local FFL as beng the upcoming issue. When I do a Gun Broker FFL search I find lots of transfer dealers in my area that don;t have a conventional store front, between thoose guys, pawn shops and the used gun market I don't see the locals going away. I do think it will get increasingly harder to actually be able to handle a gun you are thinking of buying. Even now we have one local dealer that keeps the majority of his stock off the sales floor and has it listed on Guns America. If you want one of thoose guns you have to bring in a print out from GA or the guy at the counter will likely not know they have it in stock or what the advertised price is.
As to the ATF shutting down dealers, well none of our buying practices can do much to controll that. But our voting practices sure mght help.
When looking to make a firearm related purchase I always research pricing on the web and then try to find a local store that stocks the product. I will purchase locally if their price is anywhere close to the best web deal. I want to support the local store so that I can actually hold the product in my hand and compare similar items before I make a purchase. It is also fun to browse the local shops inventory and talk guns when the owners\employees are knowledgeable.
I recently purchased a P30 V3 after reading Todd's test. It would cost $858 from Bud's with transfer. Another local store that carries HK's wanted $899 for the gun and the additional TX sales tax brought it to $973. I asked the owner if he could reduce the price and he matched Bud's price. I bought from him at a final cost of $902 so I spent an extra $44 to buy locally.
theJanitor
12-30-09, 18:05
retracted
I prefer to buy locally but sometimes the local dealer can be completely out of line and when that happens, I have no qualms about buying online. If it's okay to walk away from a local dealer who wants $650 for his CZ-75 because another local guy has the same pistol for $500, then it rings hollow to complain about someone buying online due to price.
I agree that a small difference should be absorbed by the consumer as the price of getting customer service and supporting local shops. However, spending $800 for a $500 AK is simply a bad decision. I could use extra support. I don't think anyone here would be willing to overpay by $300 per firearm I sold from my collection. -I've got a DSA FAL, any interested party can pay too much for... ;)
Some (not all) stores view their customers as open wallets. I have talked with several dealers both in collectible and modern firearms who shared that view. The common thought they had was they hoped to make money on the buyer who had money and did not know what he was doing. They were not looking for the knowledgeable purchaser who could pass and wait for a better price. At the time, I was really disappointed in those individuals. However, I could see that their method worked for them. In contrast, with the exception of the internet warehouses, selling with a razor thin profit margin was generally the surest way to go out of business because there was not enough volume to make it viable.
Fair price is fine, but gouging is not. If it's a fair price, buying locally helps the local shooting community. If it's an outrageous price, buying locally only helps the dealer.
Regarding transfers, I have known some dealers who loved doing transfers. They thought it was an easy way to make money on a gun they didn't have to put any money into. I saw them routinely handle transfers from out of state dealers at the gun shows (in addition to the shop) and it literally was a way to generate a good amount of money with a very small investment (i.e. the only cost they had was the time it took an employee to do the paperwork). Additionally, the dealers I knew looked at it as a way of bringing people to the shop to buy ammo, holsters, etc. Once people get used to coming to your shop, they continue coming to your shop unless you give them a reason to go elsewhere.
Unfortunately it has become a situation where many local dealers hate transfers because they view it as unfair competition. Often they will add extra charges to make it non-competitive as an option. When they do, they usually engender ill-will from the customer. If you turn off your customers, that's a problem. A small shop in a rural area may be able to get away with it due to a lack of alternatives, but a shop in a major metropolitan area just drives its own customers away from it.
I remember one shop in WA (now closed) that wanted to charge me sales tax on a pistol I bought online. It was not a pistol they stocked and it was not available for them to order. I had tried to get them to order it. I asked them how they could charge sales tax on a pistol they didn't sell. They told me it was the law. Really? I asked them how much sales tax they were going to charge when they didn't know the sales price? They told me they'd guess if I didn't tell them. Hmmm. So I asked them if I contacted WA's Dept. of Revenue and asked them if the store was turning in the " transfer sales tax" they were collecting on the state's behalf? Will the state's numbers match their numbers with the tax they were collecting on transfers? That's when the excuses started to flow about how difficult the business is and they only do it on new guns, etc. -I never bought another firearm from them after that stunt. It was a shame. I liked the store until I caught them trying to steal from me.
LockenLoad
12-30-09, 23:02
my ffl lets me have it for his cost and 30.00 and never gets mad, in fact he just got me a P.C. S&W we were bsing I left forgot to pay called him within 2 minutes he is ok forget about it
I guess you've never bought any jewelry. Or watches. Or clothes. Sixty percent is nothing compared to what those items get. Part of that is because -- much like gun shops -- places selling jewelry and clothing often buy substantial inventories for customers to look at. But they know they won't turn anywhere near 100% of that inventory over in the short term.
Let's suppose GunUSA, maker of the world's finest and most reasonably priced handguns, has ten different models. The dealer price on each of them is $500. My gun shop buys one of each; that's a $5,000 outlay. We'll go with your number of 60% for convenience, so that's a retail of $800. The shop has to sell seven of the ten guns just to make any profit.
How many gun shops do you see that turn over 70% of their firearms inventory every month?
Then, from that wonderful profit, the shop needs to pay its lease; insurance; licenses; legal fees; payroll; utilities; etc. After all of that, then maybe the crazy shop owner actually wants to make some money himself, too.
The argument that making $25 is better than making nothing simply fails. From a long term business standpoint, it probably makes much more sense to lose that piddly $25 than to flush your entire pricing structure down the toilet.
I understand your point(s). I pretty much agree with them, up to the last one.
OK, about the jewelry/watches/clothes, I used the word markup incorrectly in my first post. Instead of 60% markup, I should have said 60% more than the item can be bought somewhere else. I don't care about markup/dealer profit, I care about my purchase price on a given item. I should also have added something about my assumption that a dealer can order an item for less than I can.
In a place my wife and I used to live, we had a relationship with a jewler that I would love to have with any gunshop in my new area. But the relationship was started when I walked in, described something I had seen somewhere else, and he knew what I was looking for was able to ordered it from his catalog at a substantial dollar savings (about 20%). After the relationship was established, I never paid the marked price on anything, and he was happy to sell to me. I knew he was still making a healthy profit, but his prices were better than any other shop around and I was willing to pay it for the selection and service offered. We still make it a point to visit that shop as often as possible, and we usually buy something. I would be more than willing to to that for guns as well. Maybe now I could look online and do the same thing to that jewelry shop that we collectively(me included) are doing to our local FFLs.
The problem with GunUSA comes in when I can order the same gun you have on the shelf for your dealer price of $500, add $20 shipping, and a $25 transfer fee. Many people are getting squeezed right now, and $545 OTD compared to $800+tax is a pretty easy decision. I'm going to assume that the place I'm ordering from paid less than your dealer cost and is making profit. The average gun shop is screwed at this point, becuase the number of people willing to pay the $800 is shrinking by the day. If I owned the shop, I'd be madder than hell. Luckily I don't own a shop becase I don't know if you can compete with that scenario, and it's only going to get worse.
When you name all the bills a business has to pay like that, it makes me think the days of small shops are coming to an end. In general, not just guns. It makes being a homeowner sound not so bad.
From a long term business standpoint, if the price differential between two places on an identical item is such that people are will to do extra work to get the cheaper price, there won't be a long term business. Good service can make up some of that, but eventually it could be "what have you done for me lately". The business owner can take steps to change the pricing structure now or lose the business. Either way, the current pricing structure is going to be flushed down the toilet. highly doubt the online retailers are going to back off, so the local shops will have to adjust, or wither away. It sucks, but "business" and "genteel" generally don't go together.
LockenLoad
12-30-09, 23:38
You may very well be right. For quite a while now, the industry as a whole has been worried that places like Bud's could have a pretty negative long-term effect.
Because if your prediction above is correct, where does that leave us? For many people, the only FFL available within driving distance will be a big box store. And we all know what happens then. Remember KMART? They used to sell guns. But pressure was put on them and they stopped.
They sell any handguns at the Wal-Mart near you? I'm pretty sure the answer is no. And they won't do an FFL transfer for you, either.
Like I said earlier, folks who want to save $100 today by buying online are just setting themselves up for failure when their local FFL closes its doors.
I don't think that's the case with mine I have spent 4000.00 plus in his store in the last six months, he also has made money on me selling some of my guns(which means I am buying another) and I buy gun oil and small amounts of ammo even though I get most online our at wally world
I hear people say that they go to the local store to check everything out and then go buy it online to save money. I have done that as well but try not to make a habit of it. I told them if they do that all the time and don't support the local store than they won't have a local store anymore.
I have a $100 rule. If I can buy a gun online for $100 or more with total cost to me than I will probably buy it online unless its an online dealer I don't trust or I want it faster. Anything less than $100 is really not worth my time doing all the extra steps and taking the risk of dealing with an online seller.
For the most part my transfers are on used guns not new ones except for a few high end guns that are way over priced locally or I can not get. An example of this is a Colt LE6920 can be had online all over the place for $1095 no sales tax but my local dealer is still asking $2100! There are several examples like that in his store, they have an FN SCAR hanging on the wall and it can be yours for $3295 plus tax or I can buy it online all day for around $2550 no tax. However last month I bought an LMT piston rifle and he was $150 less than any rifle I could find on gunbroker etc. So its a little hit and miss.
I do not use the local gun store for transfers ever! I also never ask them to deal on the price of a new gun. They set their price and if they are out of line than they loose that sale, very simple and no hurt feelings. Since I don't use them for transfers they don't know what I am buying. I do all my transfers through my kitchen table FFL/gunsmith. He does keep a lot of guns in stock that he sells but nothing that I am interested in and from seeing my transfers he knows it so there are never any hard feelings.
On average I would guess I buy 2-3 guns local each year and most are probably over $1-$2k each plus other odds and ends so they get plenty of my business. I would guess I buy/sell 5 plus guns a year online.
So bottom line is try to find a dealer to do transfers with that is a home based FFL etc and than have the store you deal with local...best to keep them separate if you can.
I understand your point(s).
The problem with GunUSA comes in when I can order the same gun you have on the shelf for your dealer price of $500, add $20 shipping, and a $25 transfer fee. Many people are getting squeezed right now, and $545 OTD compared to $800+tax is a pretty easy decision. I'm going to assume that the place I'm ordering from paid less than your dealer cost and is making profit. The average gun shop is screwed at this point, becuase the number of people willing to pay the $800 is shrinking by the day. If I owned the shop, I'd be madder than hell. Luckily I don't own a shop becase I don't know if you can compete with that scenario, and it's only going to get worse.
When you name all the bills a business has to pay like that, it makes me think the days of small shops are coming to an end. In general, not just guns. It makes being a homeowner sound not so bad.
I think you just hit the nail on the head, but did not fully realize it. Small gun shops are shutting down because profits are way down (as people can get guns for around their cost and pay no sales tax).
What Todd and I are trying to explain is that by NOT buying SOMETHING from the local dealers, there might not be ANY dealers around you to do transfers.
Then when you have to drive across the state for 4 hours just to transfer a gun, you will have wished you had supported that local dealer a little more. ;)
C4
I don't pay the insurances you listed, but I'm going to assume the place I order from does. Unless it varies by state, then all bets are off.
For me, it's not about the profit, it's about the price differential. After a certain point, I'm going to take the cheaper price. It's not $40 on an $800 gun, but $300 on a $500 gun is on the other side.
I can understand if a local dealer can't match the deal. Actually moreso now after reading this thread and thinking some of it through. But don't be an ass about me asking for a lower price and then give no explanation. If he would have said that he doesn't move that volume and can't go that low, I would have understood that even if I didn't like what I was hearing. He may have explained why to 100 guys before me and is tired of saying it, but I left his store slight angry and confused after the conversation because of the attitude. I wasn't expecting an attempt to haggle to generate that kind of response. I try to be educated in a general sense about how things work from the other guys perspective, but in this case I was...not seeing things exactly right. Live and learn.
Let's back this conversation up a little bit and explain some things about business etiquette and consumer etiquette.
First, the dealer needs to be honest and reputable. They have to be professional and knowledgeable about their business. If they are not, then don't give them any business and let them close down (in hopes that someone else will come into the picture).
If you walk into a gun shop for the FIRST TIME (having NEVER bought a single thing from them) and tell the owner that his prices on guns are either too high or try to get him to come down HUNDREDS of dollars on something, you will most likely rub the owner the wrong way and NEVER get anywhere.
Short story: Had a customer come in awhile back (first time) and started asking for discounts on everything because he told me that he could find them "cheaper on the net." His attitude and aggressiveness immediately turned me off and from then on, everything was retail prices + 10%! You just don't come into someones personal store and act like you own the place demanding things. Not gonna fly.
So try building a relationship with the owner FIRST before you start trying to cut hundreds of dollars out of his pocket. Be friendly and try buying small things from them on a regular basis (ammo, cleaning supplies, etc). The owner will start to think of you as a regular and since they have already made money off of you, they might be much more understanding when you ask for them to price match on a firearm.
One final thought about the current state of things (economy). Dealers are REALLY struggling to move guns and I am seeing things sell for dealer cost to BELOW dealer as they are just trying to get out from underneath their inventory and make payroll. So by trying to get your local FFL to match a price on a gun found on the errornet from a dealer that is just dumping their inventory is not fair to your dealer (as they might not be in that same position and have no need to sell inventory at cost).
I don't believe that you would do your job for free so don't ask your local FFL dealer to do it either.
C4
When you name all the bills a business has to pay like that, it makes me think the days of small shops are coming to an end. In general, not just guns. It makes being a homeowner sound not so bad.
Yup. ATF is actively shrinking the number of non-storefront FFLs. Small storefront FFLs (traditional gunshops) are closing in many places because they can't compete with the online to-the-public distributors.
It's silly to expect an average consumer to pay an extra $250 voluntarily on a gun just to help out the local business.
I'm the first to admit, I don't buy ammo through my local gun shop. They can't come close to meeting the price I get when buying in quantity direct from a manufacturer. But when I need a couple boxes of ammo, or cleaning supplies, etc., that's where I drop by.
It was never my intention to guilt anyone into paying half again as much for a gun just to help the local shop. My explanation above was simply to illustrate why the local shop charges more, and why it's unreasonable to walk in and demand they match an online price.
It was never my intention to guilt anyone into paying half again as much for a gun just to help the local shop.
i went and bought a glock 26 at a local shop yesterday just to clear my conscience.
actually got a good deal- saved a lot over buying/shipping/transfering online. more importantly, the owner/operater is a really nice guy. first ever local gun buying experience that i walked away from totally satisfied.
as far as haggling- a lot of people come from places where the listed price is never the dealers best price. considering gun shops are stereotypically places of haggling, i cant believe anyone would be surprised or irritated that people, new customer or not, would try to talk them down. if you don't want people to haggle, simple solution- post a big sign above the display that says something to the effect of "haggle-free buying! our listed price is our best price!" people will get it: "don't ****in talk me down, i don't need your business that bad," but they'll appreciate the sentiment.
I don't believe that you would do your job for free so don't ask your local FFL dealer to do it either.
bingo!
bingo!
Funny story. Had a guy once come into our shop and ask me what my price was on something. I quoted him 20% over my cost (which was a 20% discount off the MAP price). He told me that was too high and that he knew what my price was on the item. I asked him him what was acceptable and he said 10% over my cost.
I find it REALLY funny that people believe that they can tell you what is an acceptable dollar amount to make on something. :rolleyes:
C4
sigmundsauer
12-31-09, 14:56
I doubt I have anything materially to add to this fine discussion, but will try anyway.
I see it like this. Neither the gun dealer nor the consumer should be offended by hearing an offer or declining an offer to sell merchandise at a lower, more competitive price. However, this is rarely the case with gun dealers in general. It's a shame and even some of the opinions expressed in this thread reinforce this common attitude.
I have never insulted a car dealer by offering a too low of price on a car. Almost universally the reputable car dealers simply politely state that they cannot or are unwilling to sell the car at my current offer. If I am unwilling to budge, I equally as politely say thank you and am gracious for their time and excuse myself from the store. Never any hard feelings and I don't expect them to cater to me in any other unreasonable way. Buying guns should be no different.
Gun sales are, as stated earlier, stereotypically a bartered commodity, yet many, many gun dealers are immediately and visibly offended by asking for a better price. It doesn't make sense, and I fully understand the costs and investments of running a store front retail store versus the bare bones internet retailer.
Many gun dealers simply don't embrace the principle that the customer is always right. Of course, technically that assertion holds little water, but if you routinely offend your customers (however naive) by responding abrasively to honest requests for a discount you will ultimately lose in the end. Gun owners are notoriously addicted to guns and the sort, and almost always will be in the market for a gun again in the future. This is the same lesson that restaurant owners and car dealers learned decades ago.
A gun dealer is never obligated to have to sell on a ridiculous offer but don't get your boxers in a bunch over it, reputations travel far.
There is a rather new gun dealer here at Fort Leonard Wood. He has a small inventory and sells tactical-oriented guns at predatory prices, above MSRP, knowing full well that some young soldier will march in and pay whatever just to own a "piece." At one point I couldn't keep my thoughts to myself when I saw them selling a used, but rather minty, Beretta 92FS for $700. I made a point to quietly and politely advise the salesperson that they've priced a used gun above the new pistol's MSRP. He confirmed with the owner that it was priced correctly. I further politely advised them that their establishment had earned a reputation for squeezing soldiers (the lion's share of their business) and recommended they reconsider that practice or perhaps risk their business. The next time I walked into the store a few months later their prices were heavily corrected. Not the best I've seen for sure but hardly unreasonable for a local, small establishment. I have no idea if they took my advice to heart but I offered it freely without any expectation that they would try to salvage my business. I stated myself in the sincerest way that I could in the interest of showing that I was truly interested in seeing their business succeed...I also have a soft spot for young soldiers who would otherwise be taken by predatory businessmen.
Tim
I doubt I have anything materially to add to this fine discussion, but will try anyway.
I see it like this. Neither the gun dealer nor the consumer should be offended by hearing an offer or declining an offer to sell merchandise at a lower, more competitive price. However, this is rarely the case with gun dealers in general. It's a shame and even some of the opinions expressed in this thread reinforce this common attitude.
I have never insulted a car dealer by offering a too low of price on a car. Almost universally the reputable car dealers simply politely state that they cannot or are unwilling to sell the car at my current offer. If I am unwilling to budge, I equally as politely say thank you and am gracious for their time and excuse myself from the store. Never any hard feelings and I don't expect them to cater to me in any other unreasonable way. Buying guns should be no different.
Gun sales are, as stated earlier, stereotypically a bartered commodity, yet many, many gun dealers are immediately and visibly offended by asking for a better price. It doesn't make sense, and I fully understand the costs and investments of running a store front retail store versus the bare bones internet retailer.
Many gun dealers simply don't embrace the principle that the customer is always right. Of course, technically that assertion holds little water, but if you routinely offend your customers (however naive) by responding abrasively to honest requests for a discount you will ultimately lose in the end. Gun owners are notoriously addicted to guns and the sort, and almost always will be in the market for a gun again in the future. This is the same lesson that restaurant owners and car dealers learned decades ago.
A gun dealer is never obligated to have to sell on a ridiculous offer but don't get your boxers in a bunch over it, reputations travel far.
There is a rather new gun dealer here at Fort Leonard Wood. He has a small inventory and sells tactical-oriented guns at predatory prices, above MSRP, knowing full well that some young soldier will march in and pay whatever just to own a "piece." At one point I couldn't keep my thoughts to myself when I saw them selling a used, but rather minty, Beretta 92FS for $700. I made a point to quietly and politely advise the salesperson that they've priced a used gun above the new pistol's MSRP. He confirmed with the owner that it was priced correctly. I further politely advised them that their establishment had earned a reputation for squeezing soldiers (the lion's share of their business) and recommended they reconsider that practice or perhaps risk their business. The next time I walked into the store a few months later their prices were heavily corrected. Not the best I've seen for sure but hardly unreasonable for a local, small establishment. I have no idea if they took my advice to heart but I offered it freely without any expectation that they would try to salvage my business. I stated myself in the sincerest way that I could in the interest of showing that I was truly interested in seeing their business succeed...I also have a soft spot for young soldiers who would otherwise be taken by predatory businessmen.
Tim
Buying guns and cars is not the same.
Imagine going into your state liquer store and trying negotiate price on a bottle of vodka.
You can TRY and negotiate price and you might even get somewhere. To me though, it is rude to have never been a customer of that store before and try to get them to shave hundreds of dollars off the price.
My feelings arent' hurt if someone asks for a better price. I will either tell them yes or no. The customer will just get a lot farther if they were FIRST a PAYING customer (FYI).
C4
I've probably been rude to only 1 or 2 customerss who deserved it in 13-14 years. I just explain that the deal they are offering is not in my best interest and if they are nice I try and explain the business a little so they understand where I am coming from. Most back off and buy anyway since they are getting a reasonable deal anyway... Some say thanks and hang up. I am not offended and try to be courteous.
But I have used the line a few times on people asking them what they do for a living and if their employer is in the habit of giving away whatever they produce/sell and if they are willing to take a pay cut to help their employer sell more stuff at discount...
Just as an example, both of the gun companies I worked for sold their manufactured and/or imported guns at ~50% margin (100% "markup"). One company annually had a net profit of about 10%, and another varied anywhere from a loss to a minor profit.
The expense of running a business is huge compared to what most people realize.
sigmundsauer
12-31-09, 17:34
Buying guns and cars is not the same.
Imagine going into your state liquer store and trying negotiate price on a bottle of vodka.
You can TRY and negotiate price and you might even get somewhere. To me though, it is rude to have never been a customer of that store before and try to get them to shave hundreds of dollars off the price.
My feelings arent' hurt if someone asks for a better price. I will either tell them yes or no. The customer will just get a lot farther if they were FIRST a PAYING customer (FYI).
C4
Although I don't see how liquor stores and gun stores are related in any other way beyond that a license is required to sell them, I will fully concur that developing a mutually-respecting relationship with your local gun store is wise advice, especially before ever asking for special discounts.
In all my years of buying guns from many, many states I can say unequivocally that one can walk into a gun store and assess in a matter of minutes the attitude of the owner.
The retail gun business is tough business by any stretch of the imagination, with very low margins. But if there was ever a year to prosper 2008 and 2009 were it. I am sympathetic to that, but only in so far as acknowledging that ANY business that does not assess the market well enough to stay relevant is doomed to fail. There is no charity for business owners, but the consumer defines the market, not the other way around. GM is a case study in a corporation trying to force new products on an inflated market thinking arrogantly that if they build and advertise new products they will sell - clearly not always the case.
I go out of my way to buy locally when possible. But my investment with a gun retailer is my return business. I simply won't pay full price for darn near anything, that's just being a wise consumer.
Another observation I'll make is that there is a curious tendency for gun stores which charge high retail on their firearms to underbid on trades. I suppose I wouldn't mind paying a little more for a new firearm if the transaction was reciprocated with an equally fair valuation of my trade, fully realizing that he's in the business of SELLING guns, not buying. I know a few FFLs personally and they emphatically state that the used gun market is far more profitable than the new gun market (on a per sale basis) - very similar to the used car market.
Tim
Nathan_Bell
12-31-09, 17:51
NOTE: Most gun store employees are full of shit. Most product is marked up 25-40%.
To hell with etiquette, but be polite. The gun shop is providing a service, that's it. If they were able to match, most wouldn't be shopping online.
You have no clue as to what you are talking about. The mark-up from manufacturer to MSRP is in that range, but most gunshops do not buy from the manufacturer. If they are large enough they are part of a buying group that gets the product at distibutor cost, most shops cannot do this. They have to buy from a distributor, who will tag them for 10-15points, then they have to pay UPS/Fed-Ex to get the stuff from the distributor to the shop. A small shop is now working on 10-25% range. Which is what most of your non-gun retailers consider clearance pricing mark-up.
Yes, most small gunshops are running at a margin that normal retailers sell "we need this shit gone" merchandise at. So if they say they have no room to move, they probably do not.
Let's back this conversation up a little bit and explain some things about business etiquette and consumer etiquette.
First, the dealer needs to be honest and reputable. They have to be professional and knowledgeable about their business. If they are not, then don't give them any business and let them close down (in hopes that someone else will come into the picture).
If you walk into a gun shop for the FIRST TIME (having NEVER bought a single thing from them) and tell the owner that his prices on guns are either too high or try to get him to come down HUNDREDS of dollars on something, you will most likely rub the owner the wrong way and NEVER get anywhere.
Short story: Had a customer come in awhile back (first time) and started asking for discounts on everything because he told me that he could find them "cheaper on the net." His attitude and aggressiveness immediately turned me off and from then on, everything was retail prices + 10%! You just don't come into someones personal store and act like you own the place demanding things. Not gonna fly.
So try building a relationship with the owner FIRST before you start trying to cut hundreds of dollars out of his pocket. Be friendly and try buying small things from them on a regular basis (ammo, cleaning supplies, etc). The owner will start to think of you as a regular and since they have already made money off of you, they might be much more understanding when you ask for them to price match on a firearm.
One final thought about the current state of things (economy). Dealers are REALLY struggling to move guns and I am seeing things sell for dealer cost to BELOW dealer as they are just trying to get out from underneath their inventory and make payroll. So by trying to get your local FFL to match a price on a gun found on the errornet from a dealer that is just dumping their inventory is not fair to your dealer (as they might not be in that same position and have no need to sell inventory at cost).
I don't believe that you would do your job for free so don't ask your local FFL dealer to do it either.
C4
I'm pretty sure you were talking in general, but the situation I described with the irate shop owner when I asked about price was a place I had been frequenting for years. I had been shooting league bullseye there for years and I purchased a lot of primers, poweder, bullets, magazines, cleaning supplies, and a few guns. Up to that point I had paid marked price on everything. However, I was not a gun-of-the-month member. But I was not walking in off the street for the first time and demanding him to match an internet price, I asked in a conversational tone and got a completely unexpected response.
Not many people would do their job for free. On the flip side, many people would leave a job for a similar one if the pay is 10% better.
Have a safe and happy New Year.
I'm pretty sure you were talking in general, but the situation I described with the irate shop owner when I asked about price was a place I had been frequenting for years. I had been shooting league bullseye there for years and I purchased a lot of primers, poweder, bullets, magazines, cleaning supplies, and a few guns. Up to that point I had paid marked price on everything. However, I was not a gun-of-the-month member. But I was not walking in off the street for the first time and demanding him to match an internet price, I asked in a conversational tone and got a completely unexpected response.
Not many people would do their job for free. On the flip side, many people would leave a job for a similar one if the pay is 10% better.
Have a safe and happy New Year.
My comments were in general.
I would view you as a valued/repeat customer and be open to giving you a discount.
In my gun shop, there are no prices on the guns. When a customer asks how much something is, I ask them what they would like to pay. Most people ask for a realistic price and get it.
C4
Robb Jensen
01-01-10, 20:15
My comments were in general.
I would view you as a valued/repeat customer and be open to giving you a discount.
In my gun shop, there are no prices on the guns. When a customer asks how much something is, I ask them what they would like to pay. Most people ask for a realistic price and get it.
C4
That's one hell of a way Grant. I don't think it would really work where I work as most of the other slapdicks don't know much about guns, but at least ask before giving out disinformation. They couldn't keep in their head what we'd paid for something.
EzGoingKev
01-01-10, 20:42
I like keeping my money local and helping the small businesses.
Only if its a good business.
Due to awful service there are some places I hope I am personally helping go out of business by ordering things online.
sigmundsauer
01-01-10, 22:01
Only if its a good business.
Due to awful service there are some places I hope I am personally helping go out of business by ordering things online.
There's a dealer in Western Washington State with "Discount" in its storefront name. Perhaps they used to be discount, i even bought a few guns from him when prices were reasonable, but in the last year or two he's been selling at full MSRP. I couldn't help myself but to write them a note directly and just flat out call them dishonest for marketing their business that way.
If you're committed to providing discounted firearms, especially with the aim of retaining return customers, then don't give in to greed just because you can find a segment of consumers that are willing to pay full price. I told him I'd never do business with them again.
Tim
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