Winchester 115gr 9mm Personal Protection?

[larry0071]

I went to Dicks Sporting goods today to grab some FMJ for my Glock 17 and my MP9c and saw that they had some Winchester 115gr 9mm Personal Protection 50 round boxes for 19.99. I grabbed a few boxes to try since I can't find my normal carry ammo around. I had always caried Hydra-Shock. I also got a few 20 round packs of the Horniday Critical Defense TAP 115gr 9mm ammo. I know that many here enjoy recomending the Horniday, so I think I already know that a great deal of you will like that choice, but what of the more affordable Winchester Personal Defense stuff?

Is this also acceptable carry ammunition? I am ASSuming that it is camparable to the Hydra-Shock that I had been carrying for years, would this be making an ass out of myself?

I can't afford to shoot the Horniday Critical defense often (I work for a living, but also have a wife and 3 rug-rats!) so I thought that maybe I could afford more trigger time with my carry ammo if the Winchester Personal Defense is an acceptable defense round.

Thanks for your input, I appreciate any experiance you all may have with this ammo.

Side note, I could practice with the Winchester and carry with the Horniday I suppose.

Further side note: They have UMC .223 55gr on sale in the "Mega Pack" 200 round bax for $79.95 right now. I also got a couple of those. That is pre-Obama priced and the same price that Dick's is asking for the steel cased Wolf 55gr ammo! Brass case = reloadable!

[SteyrAUG]

So long as it is JHP you are pretty good to go.

With 115 gr. +P or +P+ is also a good idea.

[larry0071]

I looked for the designation of +P or +P+ and do not see it marked on the box. I did dig this out of Google:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_8_48/ai_87564357/?tag=content;col1

Anyone know if the old faithfull Hydrashock product is still made? I haven't seen it around me in Western PA for a year. Maybe it has been relegated to relic status and has been discontinued?

[ChicagoTex]

I'll take 'em in order:

1. Federal Hydra-Shoks - have a tendency to overexpand, especially in smaller high velocity loadings (such as the 9mm). The Hydra-Shok built it's rep on it's 230gr .45ACP loading - a much bigger, and much slower round when the FBI chose it as their official .45ACP loading. Hydra-shoks in all loadings generally do poorly when asked to penetrate barriers like glass and wood prior to striking their target, and have a tendency to have their jackets seperate from their bullets when striking human targets.
When it was developed, the Hydra-Shok was considered a premier personal defense JHP loading, but it has since been obsoleted by Federal's own HST loadings (which correct the seperation issue entirely and offer more reliable penetration and uniform expansion in all calibers)

2. Winchester Personal Defense - comes in many flavors, but if these are Silvertips (or close descendents thereof), they have a tendency to hyper-expand and fragment - again limiting penetration.
If it's based on one of their newer designs, I don't have a lot of experiences with those, so someone else will have to chime in.
Note that Winchester PERSONAL DEFENSE and Winchester RANGER are very different banners, and the Ranger loadings rank among the top performing JHPs of today.

3. Hornady TAP ammo is kind of at the opposite end of the spectrum, and is a design known for it's hesitation to expand, but uniform and reliable expansion when it does. This is why TAP ammo is so popular in .223/5.56 application, as the extreme velocity of that chambering lends itself well to the TAP design. I don't know much about how TAP performs in a relatively light and fast 9mm, but I would expect it to do fairly well and of the three loads you listed, I'd be inclined to make it my first choice. I do know TAP ammo is known to expand poorly in larger, slower chamberings like the .45ACP.

I myself carry only Speer Gold Dots or Federal HSTs, which have EXTREMELY solid track records in personal defense handgun ammunition. I wouldn't hesitate to carry Winchester Ranger aswell, but Winchester attempts to sell that ammunition to law enforcement only, making acquiring it for civilians a bit tricky (note that Federal HSTs are also "supposed to be sold to law enforcement only" but are much easier to get, in my experience)

If you're curious, my exact carry ammos are as follows:

Walther PPS/Glock 26: Speer Gold Dot 9mm 124gr +P Short Barrel
Walther P99/Beretta 92FS: Speer Gold Dot 9mm 124gr +P
Dan Wesson Classic Bobtail: Federal HST .45ACP 230gr
(Back when I had .40s) SIG P229/Beretta PX4/Springfield XD/CZ 75B: Speer Gold Dot .40S&W 155gr

For more information visit the CALIBERS (http://9x19mm.com/forum3/) forum.

[larry0071]

I may have mis-quoted myself, what I got from Hornaday is: Hornady Critical Defense Ammunition 9mm Luger 115 Grain Flex Tip eXpanding, this had the red plastic plug inserted into the hole on the hollow point. It is not the TAP designation.

[ChicagoTex]

I may have mis-quoted myself, what I got from Hornaday is: Hornady Critical Defense Ammunition 9mm Luger 115 Grain Flex Tip eXpanding, this had the red plastic plug inserted into the hole on the hollow point. It is not the TAP designation.

Ah, that stuff I know nothing about. (My handgun defense ammo investigations happened about 3 years ago, I haven't really stayed current since)

[John_Wayne777]

Winchester makes some good self defense ammo...but most of the white-box looking "personal defense" stuff isn't on the list. If at all possible, stick to one of these loads:



9 mm:
Barnes XPB 105 & 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)


https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

Hydra-shoks, silvertips, and similar rounds are old bullet designs. They do not offer the level of performance that the loads mentioned in the referenced thread offer. Hydra-shoks, for instance, have a tendency to plug up when passing through heavy clothing. Modern bullet designs like the ones found in the Gold Dot loads or the Winchester "Ranger" loads are designed to expand reliably even through heavy clothing.

[Marcus L.]

Winchester makes some good self defense ammo...but most of the white-box looking "personal defense" stuff isn't on the list. If at all possible, stick to one of these loads:



https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

Hydra-shoks, silvertips, and similar rounds are old bullet designs. They do not offer the level of performance that the loads mentioned in the referenced thread offer. Hydra-shoks, for instance, have a tendency to plug up when passing through heavy clothing. Modern bullet designs like the ones found in the Gold Dot loads or the Winchester "Ranger" loads are designed to expand reliably even through heavy clothing.

John offers good advice:

In general, if the quality of the JHP design is questionable, the 9mm will work best with the commonly found 124gr+P. 115gr loads tend to have shallow penetration characteristics, especially if it is not a quality hollow point design. Poorly designed 147gr loads tend to have unreliable expansion.

However, its hard to beat the 147gr JHP if it is a quality design such as Ranger Talon or Fed HST as it offers superior penetration characteristics while maintaining good expansion. Recoil, muzzle flash, and report are also reduced which makes you a better shooter.

[Detmongo]

larry,
if this is the only carry ammo you can find or afford i would not worry to much about, i would work on my shooting skills. good solid hits with the win. will get the job done. i think to many people are worried about bullets more than the are worried about shooting.

[Alpha Sierra]

Hornady's Critical Defense seems to be an improvement over their XTP traditional HP design.

I haven't seen any testing done on it but the photos (admittedly in Hornady's ads) of expanded CD bullets look very good. Almost like HSTs or Rangers after expansion.

[SWATcop556]

larry,
if this is the only carry ammo you can find or afford i would not worry to much about, i would work on my shooting skills. good solid hits with the win. will get the job done. i think to many people are worried about bullets more than the are worried about shooting.

Agreed. There are many 'a dead gang banger out there from a .32 FMJ and a well placed torso or head shot.

I carry the 124 gr +P Speer GoldDot.

[Detmongo]

swatcop,
i carry the same 124gr.gd+p in both my service and bug. works very well for us.

[larry0071]

Well,

Since I love pictures....

This is what I got:

http://i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp174/larry0071/Pistols/IMAG0338.jpg

http://i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp174/larry0071/Pistols/IMAG0325.jpg

http://i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp174/larry0071/Pistols/IMAG0337.jpg

[Boris]

I, as well, am carrying the Speer 124gr +P in my FS M&P9, but have heard nothing but good things about the Critical Defense. I can't speak of the Winchester, but would rather not be shot by any of the aforementioned.

MAKE SURE THEY RUN RELIABLY through both your GLOCK and M&Pc (I know GLOCKs are finnicky.)

-B

[ChicagoTex]

Yeah, the Winchester should be used as practice ammo only. The Hornady should be fine until you can get your hands on some Gold Dots, HSTs, or Rangers.