View Full Version : Great article on the MP5
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-29-09, 20:40
Here is a link to a great article about the MP5 (by the master, Ken Hackathorn).
http://www.tacticalmedicine.com/files/BGun2009.pdf
Thanks for the link. The recent importation of MP5 type firearms manufactured by MKE has rekindled my interest in this platform. The MP5 has long been one of my favorite firearms. They are a dream to shoot.
DocHolliday01
12-29-09, 23:36
I will always have a soft spot for the MP5. I have wanted one for a long time and will most likely continue wanting one.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-29-09, 23:37
I had dinner with Mr. Hackathorn after a class a few years back. He said almost everything that is in that article. I remember some other folks at the table giving him the stink eye. He didn't seem concerned.
Good article. I fell in love with the MP5 after having an opportunity to famfire it before our push into Kuwait many years ago. I've wished I could have one ever since.
Jay Cunningham
12-30-09, 16:15
Greg - thank you for posting the link to this! It was a freakin' fantastic article IMO... It is nice now and again to get a REALITY CHECK from an individual who is able to ladle them out from a giant pot of experience.
John_Wayne777
12-30-09, 16:35
Always good to read an article from Ken.
The MP5 is just friggin' cool as hell. There's nothing in the firearms world as cool as slapping that bolt handle to chamber a round.
FromMyColdDeadHand
12-30-09, 17:20
Take that crap to the MP5smg.net! ;)
Really interesting read, two things I noticed:
While I don't doubt his rationale that the M4 might have some "Superbowl" appeal, I thought one of the main reasons that the swtich was made was because of more body armor on BGs, like in West Hollywood shootout?
I thought his comment about the difficulty in taking the safety once it is shoulder mounted was interesting. Wouldn't the gun be used mostly by officers in a stack, where they would have the guns on safe until they were ready to shoot.
I've only shot an MP5 and MP5K a couple of times and they are a hoot. I got the GSG-5 to play around with and let people plink with.
Jay Cunningham
12-30-09, 17:29
I thought one of the main reasons that the swtich was made was because of more body armor on BGs, like in West Hollywood shootout?
Well I think that Ken made a good point in the article. The MP5 is an indoor CQB weapon and the West Hollywood thing was an outdoor running gunfight. So if that incident did in fact contribute to the switch, then the rationale in that instance may have been flawed.
Great article. Thanks for the link.
earthworm94
12-30-09, 18:55
Nevermind...
rrpederson
12-30-09, 21:43
that was a great article. made a lot of sense.
Take that crap to the MP5smg.net! ;)
Really interesting read, two things I noticed:
While I don't doubt his rationale that the M4 might have some "Superbowl" appeal, I thought one of the main reasons that the swtich was made was because of more body armor on BGs, like in West Hollywood shootout?
I thought his comment about the difficulty in taking the safety once it is shoulder mounted was interesting. Wouldn't the gun be used mostly by officers in a stack, where they would have the guns on safe until they were ready to shoot.
I've only shot an MP5 and MP5K a couple of times and they are a hoot. I got the GSG-5 to play around with and let people plink with.
that was also an outdoor shootout.
it may actually be wise for major swat teams to stock and train with both weapons.
that said, wouldn't a 4 round burst or 2 of 9mm knock an armored bad guy on his ass?
that said, wouldn't a 4 round burst or 2 of 9mm knock an armored bad guy on his ass?
Would it knock the shooter on his or her ass?
To every action there is always opposed an equal reaction
Heavy Metal
12-31-09, 00:38
I am indeed fortunate to have had the opportunity to have been instructed in the proper use of the MP-5 last Summer by Mr. Hackathorn himself.
I would love to win the lottery and be able to afford one.
The problem is that you never know when your indoor gunfight is going to transition to the outdoors...
For example, as you are moving up to a house with a long driveway to serve a high risk warrant, the Bad Guys decide to start shooting before you get a chance to stack and enter; your team is pinned down 50-100 yards from the dwelling--if you only have MP5's, you might be in a world of hurt.
Same scenario, but this time when the bad guys see you coming, they jump into vehicles, egress at high speed, and engage your team in a mobile running gunfight--once again, MP5's are not the weapon of choice to be stuck with in this situation.
You are called to an active shooter scenario at a mall--even inside the structure you may have 100+ yard shots; if the bad guys are able to get outside, you potentially have even longer shots across parking lots. Once again, here is another situation when the MP5 is not the gun of choice.
If they still made the MP5 in 10mm, then I'd feel a bit better about carrying an MP5, however, as much fun and handy as MP5's are, most times I'd prefer an AR15.
In today's world, if you are a SWAT officer and are only wearing IIIa armor, you should seriously re-think your protocols.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-31-09, 10:42
Yeah, you definitely need to keep some rifles around.
T
If they still made the MP5 in 10mm, then I'd feel a bit better about carrying an MP5, however, as much fun and handy as MP5's are, most times I'd prefer an AR15.
Doc,
Could you provide some more insight into the 10mm MP5? I had one built from a .40 kit with a 10mm barrel. Any specific ammo you would suggest?
Spooky
twodollarbill
12-31-09, 15:59
I was lucky enough to be a C3 back when MP5's were cheap as dealer sample keepers.
The MP5SD is my favorite one of bunch and a blast to shoot.
John_Wayne777
12-31-09, 17:02
I believe that Ken's point is that for 80-90% of what a lot of SWAT does day to day the MP5 works pretty well.
Like PDW's, SMG's are niche weapons. In their niche, they work pretty good.
Would it knock the shooter on his or her ass?
To every action there is always opposed an equal reaction
good point.... wouldn't literally knock em down, but i was under the impression that getting shot with a centerfire handgun round even with a vest on was very unpleasant.
the cops at the hollywood shooting were armed with handguns and shotguns only correct?
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-31-09, 18:12
"elieve that Ken's point is that for 80-90% of what a lot of SWAT does day to day the MP5 works pretty well. "
Exactly. And it might be closer to 95-98%
Jay Cunningham
12-31-09, 21:45
"elieve that Ken's point is that for 80-90% of what a lot of SWAT does day to day the MP5 works pretty well. "
Exactly. And it might be closer to 95-98%
Not to mention what a civilian conducting home defense might need.
Would it knock the shooter on his or her ass?
To every action there is always opposed an equal reaction
No, it is an easy shooting round. I have done full mag dumps with the MP5/10 with one hand and it is not hard to control. 9mm is even easier.
I believe that Ken's point is that for 80-90% of what a lot of SWAT does day to day the MP5 works pretty well.
Like PDW's, SMG's are niche weapons. In their niche, they work pretty good.
+1
You always come up with scenrarios where any gun is NOT the best choice.
"the cops at the hollywood shooting were armed with handguns and shotguns only correct?"
The guys from Metro who ended the fight were actually armed with AR15's...
------------------------
Maybe things are different elsewhere in the country, but for greater than 50% of the SWAT call-outs around here, a carbine is a far better choice than an SMG.
variablebinary
01-01-10, 04:23
that said, wouldn't a 4 round burst or 2 of 9mm knock an armored bad guy on his ass?
If you have a reason to shoot 4 rounds, you have a reason to shoot 10 or 20 or 30 rounds
Lethality: For a very long time, a lot of well respected teams were doing just fine permanently killing people with MP5s. Having said that, I doubt anyone would argue that the 9mm round from a subgun has the same lethality as a properly selected 5.56mm round.
Body armor: At the ranges for which the MP5 is really intended, rapid accurate head shots are not much of a challenge... see how MP7s are being used currently OCONUS as further evolution of that concept. But realizing the BG has armor and switching to head shots (if you're not just making them routinely) takes more time than just shooting to the chest and not worrying about soft armor. As plates become more commonplace among evildoers, that equation might shift.
Range: Again, cannot argue that the 5.56mm is superior here.
Plusses in favor of the MP5 are maneuverability, size (especially suppressed), loudness (especially suppressed), and durability.
There are roles for which the MP5 is superior and roles for which the M4 and its ilk are superior. There's no rule that says every single guy on scene at a call out needs to have the exact same primary.
The MP5SD is a terrible choice for anything but fun at the range.
CarlosDJackal
01-01-10, 10:46
Personally, if I was faced with a situation that I can address with either the MP5 or AR15, I'd still choose the AR15. The reality is the AR15 can handle situations that the MP5 is suited for; but the same cannot be said of the MP5 for situations that the AR15 can handle.
A well-informed source tels me that after the Mogadishu incident of "Blackhawk Down" fame, most of the guys of the 160th SOAR ditched their MP5s for M4s both for effectiveness and compatibility with the rest of the military.
All our local SWAT team ditched their MP5s for M4s a half-dozen years ago because: (a) METT-T - some of our schools have hallways that are too long for the MP5, pistol, or the shotgun and (b) the customer HK provided was inadequate (actually, very poor - so poor that one agency recently replaced their HK USP .45s with Glock 21SFs). YMMV.
CarlosDJackal
01-01-10, 10:52
...Range: Again, cannot argue that the 5.56mm is inferior here...
Todd, was the above quote a typo? If not, please expand. :confused:
Todd, was the above quote a typo? If not, please expand. :confused:
Totally a typo. Fixed it in the original. Thanks for catching it!
The MP5SD is a terrible choice for anything but fun at the range.
What is it about the SD that makes it less than desirable for swat callouts? Bear in mind I have never handled nor seen an MP5 of any iteration in real life.
The MP5SD barrel is ported to reduce the velocity of 115gr ball to subsonic.
There is no reason LE should use 115gr ball, much less at reduced velocity. LE use that requires subsonic stealth seems a bit of a stretch, especially with reduced terminal performance trade off.
The big reason is that factory 147gr HP ammo is subsonic in a standard barrel, AND designed for terminal performance at that velocity. So you can have quiet and terminal performance.
mp-5.. what's to like?
Unergonomic dive weight
-safety cannot be flinged off & on in the manner new carbines & PDW's can.. so need be run hot off safe
-most users go dry and figure it out with an loud useless hammer drop on this low recoil non bolt lock back weapon
-reload cycle is very slow
-stock is either to long or to short for modern shooting techniques
-trigger blows
-heavy and bulky compared to true PDW's
-not gadget friendly.. format not optimized for IR/vis laser and lights
-pitiful terminal ballistics for the size/weight
-unable to rapidly switch from expanding to penetrating, combo of slow reload and anemic 9mm round performance/selection
-HK customer service blows.. keeping a fleet of them up can be trying.. ask institutional users
I imagine the majority of SWAT task could be accomplished with a ballistic shield and a hatchet... but their are certainly more elegant solutions
What Dano said. Great post.
Not to mention what a civilian conducting home defense might need.
The calculus is a little different for non-LE folks when one considers the cost of a 5.56mm carbine or SBR versus an MP5.
I think Mr. Hackathorn's article makes a good argument for downplaying some of the supposed justifications for switching from the MP5 to the M4 or SBR type platforms. I think he overplays the difference in size - the picture shows a 14.5" or 16" carbine with a suppressor, versus a MP5 without a suppressor and with a retractable stock, retracted. Not a fair comparison. The difference between a 10.5" carbine and a MP5 with a fixed stock is minimal.
He also notes the danger of 5.56 penetrating soft armor. Of course, this is also an advantage depending on what you are facing.
Aside from cost, I'm not real fond of the MP5 in terms of ergonomics (safety) and manual of arms (reloading an empty gun).
Littlelebowski
01-01-10, 15:34
How does it compare to the KAC 6x35mm?
I think he overplays the difference in size - the picture shows a 14.5" or 16" carbine with a suppressor, versus a MP5 without a suppressor and with a retractable stock, retracted. Not a fair comparison. The difference between a 10.5" carbine and a MP5 with a fixed stock is minimal.
That is indeed an unhelpful photo. Extend the stock on the MP5 and add a suppressor, and the guns are nearly the same length.
He also notes the danger of 5.56 penetrating soft armor. Of course, this is also an advantage depending on what you are facing.
What I gathered from that portion of the article is that the MP5 is a safer choice, because cops have a tendency to shoot other cops. Gosh, how about we don't do that?
(And while we're at it, how about we help accomplish that by getting serious about NDs, too. Really serious. Like loss of pay. Time off. No more SWAT. Lose your G-ride. Being the meter-maid.)
Another thought: Wasn't it the NTOA (or maybe ITEMS) that crunched the data on ops injuries and OISs, and found that when cops shoot other cops in the tactical environment, it was mostly lower extremity injuries, where armor would not play a role anyway? That would seem to negate the comparative safety margin of the HK a bit.
From the article:
However, the most important drawback to the M4 is the often overlooked fact that if one of the team members is armed with a .223, there is at least one weapon present that can penetrate most police body armor. Accidents happen, and the level of injuries related to friendly fire in police shoot-outs is often a hidden statistic. The Emergency Services Unit (ESU) of the NYPD, easily the team with the most number of callouts in the nation, still issues MP5s. Why? As one team leader said, “We don’t want to kill one of our own guys. An M4 can do that, but an MP5 can’t.”
In addition, the instructional norm with the HK was to have troop run with the safety off rather than on when the gun was or about to be in play. The norm is the opposite with the M16/AR type, as the safety is easily accessible from the firing grip for the majority of shooters. Those running ARs safety off seem to be folks that transitioned from the HK. This difference would seem to be helpful as well.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-02-10, 00:58
How does it compare to the KAC 6x35mm?
HA! I've been screaming that in my head, but I didn't want to take us there.
6x35 mm fired from an 8" barrel performs dramatically better than 9 mm from an MP5; for that matter 6x35 mm terminal performance is also superior to 10mm from an MP5/10.
decodeddiesel
01-05-10, 11:56
Good reality check thread from those that have been there and done that.
I do wish Mr. Hackathorn would become engaged in the discussion but I realize he probably has much better things to do with his time. :p
From The Colonel’s Gargantuan Gunsite Gossip 3 (Volume24-Number 12-November 2004):
Gunsite is now teaching the use of the machine pistol, or "sub machine gun." We never taught the machine pistol here at Gunsite when I was in charge, for various reasons. In my opinion, it is a slob's weapon, useful only by half-trained or poorly motivated troops. It hits no harder than a pistol and it is no more portable than a rifle. Fully automatic fire in a hand held weapon is a doubtful business, useful only to use up ammunition unnecessarily. But there are certain tasks for which the machine pistol may be recommended. One of these is boat-against-boat action in dim light, plus ship-against-boat action as in the repelling of borders. The machine pistol is also useful as a murder weapon wherein several unarmed victims are confined within an enclosed space. These uses never attracted me, and I did not think that Gunsite customers would be attracted either, but if machine pistol training is something Gunsite customers want, it will be provided. It has always seemed curious to me that European police have preferred the machine pistol to the shotgun, deeming the latter to be too barbarous, whereas in the United States the reverse is true, and the police prefer the shotgun to the MP.
Back when I was doing product evaluation for Uncle Sugar, I really enjoyed the machine pistol, since Uncle was providing the ammunition. In this job I got to be pretty good with the weapon, since I did a great deal of shooting with all sorts of models. The trick to managing fully automatic fire in a hand held weapon is to let the piece ride on its own recoil while the shooter releases vertical support during the burst. This is easy to learn, but it does not come naturally.
The Colonel also mentioned the Machine Pistol in “To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth.” I do not have the volume in front of me at this time, but I seem to recall that he mentioned that it is also particularly useful for “stalking a man in his own home.” The Colonel was not a fan of the Machine Pistol, and that seems to be very clear. He was quite handy with one though. Through our correspondence I asked him about the famous picture of him shooting a Thompson off of his chin, with three empty casings in the air. He replied that it was easy and he would show me the next time I visited him. He did and it is a very neat trick that I use to this day when demonstrating the controlability of a MP. I also have that framed picture (a copy of the original he arraigned for me) of him shooting the Thompson hanging in a place of honor in my home.
To play devil’s advocate in this discussion I will also include the thoughts of another friend of mine, the late Mario Martinez, Jr. (former Commander of the third largest Sheriff’s Office SWAT team in the Country at that time). Mario was quite fond of the SMG or “Machine Pistol,” particularly the HK offerings. He was a wizard with those instruments and I took several SMG Instructor courses from him throughout the years.
He saw a place for the “short barreled carbine (rifle caliber)” in domestic LE work, but preferred the SMG for the majority of SWAT, high risk warrant service, and hostage rescue call outs. His reasoning for this is as follows:
It does not require a suppressor in close confinements, and is easier on the ears when fired in tight spaces as opposed to the SBR.
When you shorten a carbine down to the 10.5-11.5” barrel you decrease reliability (this is before the advent of the various piston uppers and newer breed of SBRs). You then hang a suppressor off of the end of it (to help reduce your hearing damage from it going off in tight spaces) and bring it back up to carbine length, so you still have a longer weapon then a MP5A2.
It shoots a pistol caliber round that is less expensive than 5.56, this allows for more practice with the weapon and being chambered for a pistol cartridge there is less wear and tear on the gun, so it last a good bit longer than an SBR.
His SOP was to make head shots whenever available, so this negated the debate on body armor for him.
He was not worried about ranges past 75 yards in an urban environment and was fully capable with a SMG at this range. He also had designated marksman coverage and a team member or two with a carbine. Note that (as I stated above) he did see the place for the SBR or carbine in domestic LE and used them appropriately. He just preferred the MP5 for interior work, but realized its strengths and limitations.
As for me, I am quite fond of the MP5 and am issued a sample of one at work. I also like the AR and am issued one of those as well (16” middy). I think that both have their places, but it is important to fully understand the strengths and weakness of both platforms and to train accordingly.
Good article. I agree that a sub in 9mm quickly loses effectiveness once your ranges increase.
I was very impressed with this FBI 10mm MP5 compared to a std 9mm model. At fifty yds and beyond.... it hit steel plates with far more authority than the nine did. We were using both 190 and 200 gr loads.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h274/montanaguy375/mp5bmwfrt.jpg
FN in MT
decodeddiesel
01-13-10, 10:07
So I personally have never done any formal training on the MP5, however, could someone in the know explain to me what the commonly accepted and taught method is to do an emergency reload? (No, "transition to your secondary" is not the answer I am looking for. :p)
John_Wayne777
01-13-10, 11:08
Lock bolt to rear using charging handle. Eject spent mag. Replace with full mag. Slap charging handle to chamber a round.
This is done because the mag springs on MP5 magazines are often very stiff and difficult to seat on a closed bolt. Mags are also downloaded by a few rounds for the same reason.
decodeddiesel
01-13-10, 11:14
Lock bolt to rear using charging handle. Eject spent mag. Replace with full mag. Slap charging handle to chamber a round.
This is done because the mag springs on MP5 magazines are often very stiff and difficult to seat on a closed bolt. Mags are also downloaded by a few rounds for the same reason.
Thanks J_W this is pretty much what I figured. No doubt all things being equal, an AR15 is a heck of a lot faster.
I remember watching the Hollywood shoot out on the news and feeling helpless. I can only image how the officers there felt.
I think the officers went to a local gun shop and left with AR's. I also read some jerk wanted them charged with violation of CA gun laws no waiting period it back ground check....
I will stick with my SBR.
Littlelebowski
05-30-11, 14:22
I remember watching the Hollywood shoot out on the news and feeling helpless. I can only image how the officers there felt.
I think the officers went to a local gun shop and left with AR's. I also read some jerk wanted them charged with violation of CA gun laws no waiting period it back ground check....
I will stick with my SBR.
They got the ARs at the local gunshop which was later shut down by the BATFE for unrelated violations.
I believe that Ken's point is that for 80-90% of what a lot of SWAT does day to day the MP5 works pretty well.
Like PDW's, SMG's are niche weapons. In their niche, they work pretty good.
I think a lot of people lose sight of that in these discussions.
While the MP5 would have been almost useless (along with handguns and pump shotguns) in a situation like the North Hollywood bank robbery, they have their place.
I don't think you need any better example than the Princess Gate SAS raid to see the effectiveness of the MP5 for certain applications. Ironically it was that incident which made everyone jump on the MP5 bandwagon in the first place.
And it was the North Hollywood Bank Robbery that forced everyone to reconsider the limitations of things like the MP5 in other applications. After Princess Gate people wanted to use the MP5 for everything, even applications where it was not particularly suitable. With North Hollywood people finally were forced to recognize the limitations of the 9mm round for every application and as a result everyone is jumping on the M4 for every application, even those when there might be more suitable tools for the job.
We do it every time, we will continue to do it.
Did no one take issue with the author mentioning a virtue of the MP5 is reduced ballistics in case of friendly fire? WTF?
Did no one take issue with the author mentioning a virtue of the MP5 is reduced ballistics in case of friendly fire? WTF?
It sucks but it is a reality.
From reading this article it sounds like folks are fairly split on what weapon is better.
I think for my application (average joe protecting his house) a mp5 suppressed would be the better tool for the job in protecting from a home invasion.
That being said a suppressed 300 blackout out of a 8" noveske barrel may work just fine.
Good article. Going to shoot an mp5 this month, with the local PD's swat team. It's going to be the best hours of my intership! I have always loves the look of the mp5.
From reading this article it sounds like folks are fairly split on what weapon is better.
I don't think it's split at all, some people just fail to comprehend that it's not a do-it-all kind of platform.
Did no one take issue with the author mentioning a virtue of the MP5 is reduced ballistics in case of friendly fire? WTF?
I posted this earlier in the thread...
He also notes the danger of 5.56 penetrating soft armor. Of course, this is also an advantage depending on what you are facing.
What I gathered from that portion of the article is that the MP5 is a safer choice, because cops have a tendency to shoot other cops. Gosh, how about we don't do that?
(And while we're at it, how about we help accomplish that by getting serious about NDs, too. Really serious. Like loss of pay. Time off. No more SWAT. Lose your G-ride. Being the meter-maid.)
Another thought: Wasn't it the NTOA (or maybe ITEMS) that crunched the data on ops injuries and OISs, and found that when cops shoot other cops in the tactical environment, it was mostly lower extremity injuries, where armor would not play a role anyway? That would seem to negate the comparative safety margin of the HK a bit.
From the article:
However, the most important drawback to the M4 is the often overlooked fact that if one of the team members is armed with a .223, there is at least one weapon present that can penetrate most police body armor. Accidents happen, and the level of injuries related to friendly fire in police shoot-outs is often a hidden statistic. The Emergency Services Unit (ESU) of the NYPD, easily the team with the most number of callouts in the nation, still issues MP5s. Why? As one team leader said, “We don’t want to kill one of our own guys. An M4 can do that, but an MP5 can’t.”
What I gathered from that portion of the article is that the MP5 is a safer choice, because cops have a tendency to shoot other cops. Gosh, how about we don't do that?
I'd even go so far as to suggest if one isn't capable of NOT shooting the wrong people, then they really shouldn't be a police officers at all let alone on any kind of hostage rescue or SWAT team.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-31-11, 01:52
So if the MP5s safety isn't ergonomic and reloading is not really optimal, and 9mm is kind of weak- why did the MP5 become such a hit- is it that all the other SMGs sucked even more? Is it the skill of the operators and the inherent smooth shooting operation out weigh all these other factors? Was there ever an SMG that got it all 'right', or was this an evolutionary dead-end as small caliber SBRs filled the role?
I think a lot of people lose sight of that in these discussions.
While the MP5 would have been almost useless (along with handguns and pump shotguns) in a situation like the North Hollywood bank robbery, they have their place.
I don't think you need any better example than the Princess Gate SAS raid to see the effectiveness of the MP5 for certain applications. Ironically it was that incident which made everyone jump on the MP5 bandwagon in the first place.
And it was the North Hollywood Bank Robbery that forced everyone to reconsider the limitations of things like the MP5 in other applications. After Princess Gate people wanted to use the MP5 for everything, even applications where it was not particularly suitable. With North Hollywood people finally were forced to recognize the limitations of the 9mm round for every application and as a result everyone is jumping on the M4 for every application, even those when there might be more suitable tools for the job.
We do it every time, we will continue to do it.
I think just a couple of 870's with rifled slugs would have proved to have been very useful.
Thomas M-4
05-31-11, 02:36
Very accurate for a sub-gun, very handy size for CQB , VERY controllable recoil. I have only sampled two of them but it only took my first magazine to see why it is/was so popular.
BTW I don't know why so many reports of crappy trigger pull comes from? The two I sampled had German sef trigger groups the trigger pull was nice in my experience and had a good positive reset. No trigger work was done except for the clipping and pinning for semi use only.
The safety selector is not in a optimum placement compared to the AR-15. Some people say its slower to reload but I would like to point out that the MP5/10mm has a bolt hold open. The 9mm version doesn't and you have to do the HK slap.
I think just a couple of 870's with rifled slugs would have proved to have been very useful.
Certainly better than the buckshot, .38 and 9mm JHP's they were using, though the armor and plates the crooks were wearing would have provided some protection against slugs.
Even pistol caliber carbines would have been an improvement, as they would have provided the ability for more precise shot placement.
Thomas M-4
05-31-11, 02:39
I think just a couple of 870's with rifled slugs would have proved to have been very useful.
Why is that isn't IIIA soft body armor rated to stop slugs?
Why is that isn't IIIA soft body armor rated to stop slugs?
It's not rated for it. It may stop it, but it would be no fun for the wearer.
I just wish we could buy up all the MP5's that the departments are ditching. :( If they're so obsolete, why can't we have them?
Magic_Salad0892
05-31-11, 11:51
To those that mentioned the Knight's PDW:
If you replaced the MP5 with the PDW, you'd be replacing the M4 as well.
IMO, I think PDW type weapons (with 6.Xmm calibers) are the next step in CQB doctrine.
So if the MP5s safety isn't ergonomic and reloading is not really optimal, and 9mm is kind of weak- why did the MP5 become such a hit- is it that all the other SMGs sucked even more? Is it the skill of the operators and the inherent smooth shooting operation out weigh all these other factors? Was there ever an SMG that got it all 'right', or was this an evolutionary dead-end as small caliber SBRs filled the role?
Basically yes, the other candidates were worse. The Uzi was the former "greatest SMG." But the MP5 safety isn't a big issue and with the newer trigger groups it is not an issue at all. Not sure who told you reloading is a problem, I'm assuming you are referring to the bolt hold open. Once you get used to the manual of arms it is no problem.
The main advantages are first shot placement, and one of the smoothest cycle actions I've ever experienced.
I think the ultimate would have been the MP545 if it was ever put into production, sadly HK had a new plastic design and we got the UMP45 instead.
Magic_Salad0892
05-31-11, 16:31
I think the ultimate would have been the MP545 if it was ever put into production, sadly HK had a new plastic design and we got the UMP45 instead.
What is that?
What is that?
An MP5 in .45acp, like the .40 S&W model is called the MP5-40.
jonconsiglio
05-31-11, 17:15
The MP5 is a great gun and very controllable. I prefer an M4 but the MP5 has a place. I have a video of it somewhere where you can see ho's controllable it is and how easy it is to shoot accurately. Granted it's just less than 10 yards, you can see the tight group.
http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee343/jonconsiglio/Shooting/DSC_1399-Edit.jpg
I'm looking for the video now. In advance, please excuse the Beta mag! I wouldn't use it for anything other than the range. I have some suppressed videos too which I'll need to fid on one of my drives.
http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee343/jonconsiglio/Shooting/IMG_0392.mp4
http://i534.photobucket.com/albums/ee343/jonconsiglio/Shooting/IMG_0393.mp4
The whole M4 vs MP5 debate seems very similar to the M1 carbine vs Thompson thing. I do not remember many people disliking the Thompson during that era. The size difference is not small (between a M4 and a MP5A3). When I was attached to the MPs in the 'corps, they had a SRT team that really really loved the MP5.(at least that is what they told me :))
And uh, I think we all want the KAC PDW....:sad:
-Chris
/edit... saw this on another forum.... from "Project 64: The MP5 Submachine Gun Story by
Frank W. James."
NASA owned a MP5 that shot over 571,000 rounds before being decommisioned. The MP5 SN 316019 went in service August of 1984 and come out October of 1992.
Parts that were replaced because of wear:
five roller holders
five firing pins springs
four extractors
four extractor springs
three firing pins
two set of oversized locking rollers
one roller holder pin
one recoil spring assembly
one mag release spring
Anyone have an AR15 with 571,000 rounds?
Lack of support is the main reason I hear about the MP5 being changed out for the AR, followed by the terminal performance/penetration info being more available than it was in the 80's and 90's.
lloydkristmas
06-01-11, 12:57
Interesting article, thanks for the post.
I run my PDW SBR with 28 rounds in the mag, but I have never, as Hackathorn suggested, looked to ensure that the top round is on the left side of the mag. I've also never run into any trouble or bolt hangups when reloading. Anyone have any insight into the reasoning behind this advice?
Just curious.
Magic_Salad0892
06-02-11, 16:29
Anyone have an AR15 with 571,000 rounds?
The 5.56N round is much higher pressure than 9x19mm, so that's not exactly an apples to apples comparison.
But 500K rounds is an extremely impressive round count, and I bet they could have kept going.
The 5.56N round is much higher pressure than 9x19mm, so that's not exactly an apples to apples comparison.
But 500K rounds is an extremely impressive round count, and I bet they could have kept going.
From Project 64, the MP5 could have been rebarrled and brought back into acceptable specs, but the cost of rebarreling was higher than the replacement cost of the MP5.
Interesting article, thanks for the post.
I run my PDW SBR with 28 rounds in the mag, but I have never, as Hackathorn suggested, looked to ensure that the top round is on the left side of the mag. I've also never run into any trouble or bolt hangups when reloading. Anyone have any insight into the reasoning behind this advice?
Just curious.
I'm not sure exactly what you are asking. If it is about the checking the round on top of the magazine, that is to ensure that the round that was on the right side is now in the chamber.
If you were asking something else, I missed it. I sorta suspect you were asking something else.
lloydkristmas
06-02-11, 17:04
I'm not sure exactly what you are asking. If it is about the checking the round on top of the magazine, that is to ensure that the round that was on the right side is now in the chamber.
If you were asking something else, I missed it. I sorta suspect you were asking something else.
Maybe I misread the article, but he made it sound like if you downloaded magazines shy of full capacity, you should ensure that the topmost round in the mag is on the Left side. I just didnt know why. I understand the trick to check to see if a round was chambered, but I didnt think thats what he was referring to.
Maybe I misread the article, but he made it sound like if you downloaded magazines shy of full capacity, you should ensure that the topmost round in the mag is on the Left side. I just didnt know why. I understand the trick to check to see if a round was chambered, but I didnt think thats what he was referring to.
I figured you knew that.
Round on the left is a way of making sure you didn't load 29 rounds, or the top round would now be on the right. Of course it doesn't prevent you from loading 26 or 30 if you aren't paying attention.
lloydkristmas
06-02-11, 18:06
^Ah ok so its just a way of knowing youve counted correctly. I thought he was somehow saying that the rounds orientation to one side or another would affect the ability to chamber the round. Figured that would be a little wierd so I thought Id ask.
Thanks
The 5.56N round is much higher pressure than 9x19mm, so that's not exactly an apples to apples comparison.
But 500K rounds is an extremely impressive round count, and I bet they could have kept going.
I just believe there has to be someone here with a full auto lower that they have owned since the early 80s. I would have do doubt that someone has 100k+ on some lowers.
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