View Full Version : Common Sense Gear Selection / Mindset for Tactical Carbine Students
Common Sence Gear Selection / Mindset for Fighting Rifle Students
Recently I have seen several posts on this an other boards discussing gear selection for students that are going to be attending a Carbine / Rifle course.
I think many students focus more on web gear selection and accessories for their rifles than on learning the skills taught in the class.
Students take classes for several reasons. Some students take classes because they are fun, others are interested in learning new skills, others to learn how to defend themselves with a firearm, and other students attend because the skills being taught will help them in the performance of their jobs (ie. Law Enforcement, Military, etc).
I have learned over the last decade and a half of training that gear for pistol training is fairly simple. A good gun, good sights, and a good holster.
When it comes to rifles, things become much more complex. Maybe this is because there is so much more selection when it comes to gear and accessories. Maybe it's because the defensive role of the rifle is not well defined with many civilians (ie. in what situations and how they will deploy the rifle).
The following are my experiences from using the carbine / rifle in training and on the job, and things I have observed while taking training classes:
Items you may find beneficial at a carbine / rifle training class
I have taken NUMEROUS tactical carbine and tactical pistol courses from many different traniners over the last 8 years. I have also taken a more than a few Patrol Rifle and SWAT carbine courses (over the last 9+ years). What follows are some things that I have learned in those course.
-Use quality USA made ammo, such as Federal, Winchester, etc. Do not take surplus, Wolf, etc. to a class. One of the worst mistakes I see are shooters spending good money on training and then showing up with cheap ammo, and they have nothing but ammo realted malfunctions the entire class. An example of this is we had 4 guys that were shooting "Olympic" brand ammo, and their guns were jamming every couple of rounds the entire class, this slowed things down for the rest of us.
-MASTER YOUR IRON SIGHTS FIRST. No doubt that optics are benificial and much faster than irons. But before you go an buy an ACOG, Aimpoint, EO Tech, or any other optic, master your iron sights FIRST. Once you have mastered the iron sights then master the optic of your choice. If you are already good to go on irons then by all means, use an optic of your liking.
-Use quality USGI magazines with the GREEN or new Magpul followers. Another thing that I do to my magazines is use the Wolff Gunsprings 10%+ mag springs in my mags. If you have the time take the mags to the range and make sure they work good. Nothing worse then showing up to class with crappy mags and having your gun malfunction on a constant basis due to bad magazines.
-Learn to properly clean and maintain your gun properly. I always recommend the US Army or USMC M16A2 manual to new shooters, these manuals will show you how to properly maintain and clean your AR15. On the first day of class make sure you show up with a properly cleaned and lubed carbine. Everyday after class properly field strip, clean, and lube your carbine. In most Tactical Carbine Courses you will shoot approximately 500 per day, everyday. The guys that don't properly clean and lube their carbines will be easy to spot......Their guns usually go "TITS UP" the second day of class prior to lunch. A USGI cleaning kit has everything that you need in it to properly clean, maintain, and lube your gun.....and make sure to use the chamber brush.
-Buy a quality rifle / carbine and don't try to build one. In the classes that I have been to approximately 90%+ of the "built" guns have gone tit's up. Last year in a carbine course, the instructor took a poll. Of over 20 students, 12 or so had "built" rifles (all AR-15's) and of those 12 rifles 100% of them went tits up during the class. The rest of the guys had factory built guns and none of the factory built guns went tits up. That is not to say that I haven't seen a factory gun go tit's up, it just happens a lot less than with a gun that is built from parts from different manufacturers.
-I always recommend having a gun that has 1,000 rounds through it prior to coming to class. If there are any problems (ie. loose gas key, etc) they will usually arise in the first 1,000 rounds. I have seen some guys show up to class with a brand new gun and put 1,000 rounds down range without a problem, and I have seen other brand new guns that have some teething problems the first day because they are brand new, but start settling down the second day. Along with this "break in" period, it also let's the shooter know what ammo and mags the gun does or doesn't like. If you shoot the first 1,000 rounds with Federal American Eagle .223 and 5 USGI mags with no problems, then take that same ammo and those same 5 magazines to the class.
-If you have access to a second AR, take it to the class. If carbine #1 goes tit's up, you've got a back up.
-If *you* are *new to AR's* get a SIMPLE carbine and shoot it in the class.....Many times I have seen shooters show up to a class with all kinds of crap hanging off of their guns and all those accessories give them nothing but problems. Start off with a simple carbine, attend the Carbine Course, learn how to operate your gun proficiently, then add accessories as you *need* them. When you do decide to buy accessories, buy quality gear. Buy cheap and buy twice, as the saying goes.
-Make sure you have a good sling, my personal preference now is the outstanding Vickers sling by Blue Force gear and the new LaRue Tactical VTAC sling, but use what works best for you (single point, two point, or three point) because most likely you will be doing transition drills (transitioning from your carbine to your pistol)
-Remember keep it simple, take a good quality, factory made AR15 rifle or carbine (and use the IRON SIGHTS if you don't know how to already), good quality USA made ammo, good quality USGI mags, a quality sling, a USGI cleaning kit, knee pads, plenty of water, and an open mind!!!
Gear Selection for a Carbine / Rifle Class
I often hear guys say "Fight like you train" or "Train like you will fight". Most of the time these same guys don't take their own advise.
For example, a civilian that shows up to class with more nylon gear than most special operation forces wear. In a real world situation when is a civilian going to have the time to don all that gear and deploy his rifle?
Outside of a situation like the '93 L.A. Riots or a Hurricane Katrina situation, generally speaking if a civilian is going to deploy his carbine, it will most likely be within the confines of his own home (home invasion or a burglary while the homeowner is at home).
In defense of your home, when the suspect is INSIDE your house, you are not going to have time to don any web gear. You are going to grab your rifle and address the situation.
Keeping this in mind, why not train in a class in the same manner that you would deploy your carbine in real life.
In every training class and every match I have shot in I have learned at least one new lesson. So by wearing something to class that you would never wear in the real world, you are depriving yourself of lessons that you could have learned.
Here is some food for thought:
I am a big fan using the same gun / gear in training with what you will carry for a defensive situation (ie. CCW, SWAT Officer, Uniformed Patrol, Military, etc).
If you are not going to carry your gun around on a daily basis in a tactical thigh holster, then don't wear it to training. Wear in training what you will use in real life!!!
This also goes for carrying your spare magazines for your carbine. If you are going to carry an extra spare magazine or two in your rear support side pants pocket, or in the cargo pocket of your Old Navy cargo pants....then when you attend training, store your spare magazines in the same place.
Don't be one of those guys that has a $500 chest rig, and will never use it in real life. Use in training what you will use in real life.
An example of why you should train with the same gear that you will use in the real world:
A Narcotics Sgt. that works on my Dept. went to a 3 gun match and he was watching another shooter. The shooter's AR15 had been working fine all day, then came up to a stage that required a magazine change. The shooter shot the course of fire and retreived a magazine from his support side rear pocket, inserted it into the AR15, shot and the gun jammed. The shooter cleared the jam, fired another round and the gun jammed again. This happended for several rounds and the shooter had to stop and fix his gun. After examining the gun the shooter had realized that he had a gum wrapper in his pocket and this some how got attached to the feed lip of the magazine, when the shooter inserted the mag and the first round chambered, it carried the gum wrapper into the action of the AR15, thus causing his AR15 to malfunction.
The Sgt. told me that many times he and his crew run out of the office to go serve a small warrant and instead of wearing all his tactical gear he just wears his vest and puts an extra magazine or two in his back pocket. After seeing what happened at this match, the Sgt now makes sure that his pocket is free of any debris PRIOR to putting a magazine in his pants pocket. This is a great thing to learn in training, but would SUCK in a very bad way to have to learn when the bullets were flying both ways. In short train like you will fight.
This is the type of lesson that you could learn in a training class or a match if you use the same gear in the class that you will use in real life. Had this shooter taken a training class using a chest rig / belt mounted mag pouch / thigh mounted mag pouch / etc, he would have never learned this lesson.
Each piece of gear (weather it's a chest rig or a cargo pocket) has it's own specific learning curve. It's better to learn the pros and cons and the do's and don'ts in class than in a real world situaton.
The same thing goes for cops, military, etc. Use the same gear in training that you will use at work.
I always hear guys say "Train like you will fight", yadda, yadda, yadda. For most, it is nothing more than "lip service".
As my father always told me "Talk is cheap" and "Actions speak louder than words"
The reason I say this is many shooter's mindsets are in the wrong place. They show up to class with gear they would NEVER use in the real world. And most will admit that the gear they show up with, they will never use.
There is a time and a place for uber cool gear and accessories and there is a time an place to learn lessons in training so you don't have to learn if / them when bullets are flying both ways.
Many shooter are more worried about looking cool or justifying a purchase (guns, gear, etc) than learning to run their gun and gear in the same manner that they will use it in a real world defense situation.
Gear selection. Selection and placement of gear is the same for pistols and rifles:
Apply the same principals that you use for your CCW to your rifle training:
If your CCW rig is a kydex in the waist band (IBW) holster that you wear on your strong side (for arguments sake, let's say you are right handed). So your pistol is going to be on your right side in a IBW holster and your mags are going to be on your left side.
You take a 2 tactical pistol class where you will fire 1,500 to 2,000 rounds in two days and draw your pistol from the holster and access spare magazines from your mag pouch well in the excess of 100+ times.
Knowing that you are going to carry daily in a strong side (right side) IBW holster, does it make any sence to show up to class wearing a Miami Vice style shoulder holster? For 2 days and thousands of rounds and countless draws from the holster, you are going to draw your pistol from the area of your left armpit and you will access your mags from the area of your right armpit (remember for the class you are wearing a Miami Vice style shoulder holster).
There is an entirely different draw stroke, set of body mechanics, holster issues, clothing issues, reholstering, accessing magazines, etc. that go with a shoulder holster than with a strong side belt mounted IBW holster.
Now you have spent 2 days training, your "muscle memory" has gotten to the point that you (almost without thinking) go directly to your left armpit to draw your gun (because that is where the gun sits on your body when in a shoulder holster).
The class is finished and you put the Miami Vice sytle sholder holster in the closet and start carrying with your IBW belt mounted holster WITHOUT EVERY TRAINING WITH IT.
The following week you find yourself at the wrong end of a deadly force encounter with a man how is intent on killing you. You need your pistol and you need it now, your body and brain go into an auto pilot like mode, you grab for your pistol under your left arm, but it's not there (but that's where it was loacated for hundreds of draw stokes in training when you were wearing your Miami Vice style shoulder holster.....but today you are wearing a strong side belt holster).....
Then you realize "Oh shit, my pistol is located on my belt on my right side," you grab for the gun, start to draw the pistol gets caught up on your shirt (you are wearing a loose shirt because you liked the color, and because you never trained with your IBW holster you never realized that wearing loose fitting shirts could cause a problem when drawing from an IBW holster).
Now you have lost valuable seconds, you are even more upset and more stressed than you would have been if you could have located and easily drawn your pistol immedately and "gotten into the fight". Could a situation like this cost you your life? Something to think about.
And we all think "It can't happen to me". I was watching one of the new reality SWAT shows on TV a couple weeks ago, Texas SWAT, Dallas SWAT, or one of them. One of the SWAT cops was wearing a 6004 holster. He attempted to draw his pistol from the belt TWICE before realizing that he wasn't wearing his belt holster and his pistol was located further down on his thigh. I have admittedly made simular mistakes......It's something called a "training issue" and can happen to any of us.
I use the analogy with the pistol and different style holsters because students can relate to them much better for some unknown reason. Take the same lessons learned with different pistol holsters and apply those lessons to a carbine and carbine related gear.
If you are going to access your AR15 magazine from your rear left side pants pocket there is a certain learning curve involved in that (an example of this can be seen in my first post). So if you are training for self defense, doesn't it make sense to truely "Train like you will fight"?
When wearing a chest rig in a class you are teaching yourself to access extra ammo from your chest. Is this where you will carry ammo in a real world defensive situation? If not, maybe it's time to reevaluate your mindset and the way you do things.
If you are wearing a chest rig, it makes life easier for you in the class, but what are you teaching yourself?
Something I learned early on in the USMC is "Comfort will get you killed".
Don't do something just because it's easy or becasue it's comfortable. Take the phrase "Train like you will fight" to heart.
Every evolution I have every been on where we deviate from what we have done in training, and everything goes to shit, quickly. Training the way you will fight may save your life someday.
A gunfight is the wrong place to try to "unteach" yourself what you have already learned and attempt to replace it with a new set of skills.
Take care and stay safe,
Jeff
Submariner
03-20-07, 18:10
Most folks sleep 6-8 hours per day. Unless on shift work, sleeping is done at night in skivvies (at best :eek:.) That is a quarter to a third of the day. How would you apply the principles you lay out to training for this portion of everyone's 24 hour day?
Most folks sleep 6-8 hours per day. Unless on shift work, sleeping is done at night in skivvies (at best :eek:.) That is a quarter to a third of the day. How would you apply the principles you lay out to training for this portion of everyone's 24 hour day?
Do you wear your pistol on your skivvies when you are in bed the same way you wear your pistol on your belt when you are carrying concealed?
I don't, but I do try to train for those circumstances. One of many things I found when accessing my pistol from the bed. My pistol is placed in a head board just above my head. When grabbing a Glock 34, the extended mag release was long enough for me to accidentally depress when grabbing the gun off the nightstand. Thus the mag would drop on the deck. Nice thing to find out during training, instead of a during a home invasion. How did I address the problem? Had the extended mag release cut down.
Each person needs to evaluate their own set of circumstances. Only *you* have the answer to what will work best for *you*.
I find that most people are more interested in looking cool among their peers than getting the most out of training and instilling skill sets that may save their lives.
Something I have noticed time and time again and don't understand it: When it comes to pistol training, guys who train, wear the same holster / mag pouches to a class that they wear everyday when carrying concealed.
Take that same individual and put him in a rifle / carbine class and he doesn't have the same sensible approach to learning a set of skills.
Many guys will wear a chest rig / body armor / plate carrier / etc. in training that they will *never* have the chance to don in real life and give the excuse that they wear the gear so they don't "hold up the class". (Speaking in general terms, based on my observation during numerous classes)
If a guy is worried about holding up the class, how hard would it be to stage a couple extra mags on the ground a few feet away from where you are shooting.
I know a lot of guys that carry a long gun in their truck / car. Many of them have extra mags for the carbine stored in something like a Eagle Bandoleer ( http://www.eagleindustries.com/prd_detail.asp?ProdID=132&searchfield=bandoleer ).
If you carry extra mags in a Eagle Bandoleer (which would be very easy to don immedatly under stress) and your pistol in a IBW holster, wouldn't it make more sense to use the bandoleer and IBW holster in class instead of a Multi-Cam Eagle CIRAS with 12 mags on it, MICH helmet, and a drop leg tactical holster?
I am not anti-gear. Just trying to get guys to engage their brains ;)
Semper Fi,
Jeff
Very good read... Thank you for sharing it.
Jay
If you carry extra mags in a Eagle Bandoleer (which would be very easy to don immedatly under stress) and your pistol in a IBW holster, wouldn't it make more sense to use the bandoleer and IBW holster in class instead of a Multi-Cam Eagle CIRAS with 12 mags on it, MICH helmet, and a drop leg tactical holster?
All depends on what your training for, and what you want to get out of that particular class..... :)
Jay Cunningham
03-20-07, 21:38
I understand perfectly the KISS principle and the "train as you fight" principle, but I also think that these can be taken to illogical literal extremes for no good reason.
My take on it is that we train as we fight within reason. Put it this way: there are two likely scenarios in which I may use a firearm against a threat.
1.) Hot home invasion. I jump out of bed startled by a noise, wearing flannel pajama pants and a T-shirt. My heart is thumping and I'm groggy and I have probably seconds to get my AR carbine or my Glock into play.
2.) Aggressor will not back down or attempted mugging. I am moving off the line of force, verbalizing, attempting to de-escalate. OC spray comes into play first and then the Glock.
Ok, now I'm in a pistol or carbine class. Now it's time to train as I would fight. How literal do we want to get now?
USMC03, all due respect, I am not trying to stir any shit. Your points are all valid. However, I have seen some fellas rabidly insist that any type of training gear is somehow stupid and evil.
Another example is an instructor who insists on being a minimalist for an "urban carbine" type class recommending only iron sights, carry strap and 20 round magazines carried in the back pocket. All well and good, but then this same instructor begins running through standard tac carbine drills that burn through a lot of ammo and would benefit greatly from a tac sling and something to carry all that ammo - oh, and a red dot.
There are some instructors who need to get their curriculum sorted out first.
Just my $.02; this kind of discussion is always good.:)
For rifle classes, I wear a chest carrier full of ammo so that I don't have to slow down the rest of the class while going back for more ammo.
During breaks between strings, I usually insert a fresh mag into my mag holder on my belt. This is where I've trained myself to reach when my gun goes dry.
This way I can still train like I fight even though I'm wearing a vest that I'd normally not wear in reality.
nationwide
03-23-07, 22:12
-Buy a quality rifle / carbine and don't try to build one. In the classes that I have been to approximately 90%+ of the "built" guns have gone tit's up. Last year in a carbine course, the instructor took a poll. Of over 20 students, 12 or so had "built" rifles (all AR-15's) and of those 12 rifles 100% of them went tits up during the class. The rest of the guys had factory built guns and none of the factory built guns went tits up. That is not to say that I haven't seen a factory gun go tit's up, it just happens a lot less than with a gun that is built from parts from different manufacturers.
Hmmm... trust a rifle built by some $9/hour lackie (DPMS advertised assembly positions paying $8.50 last year) or one I built myself after years of experience with the system and Armorer level training?
Hmmm.... Let me think about that one a minute ;)
All depends on what your training for, and what you want to get out of that particular class..... :)
I agree.
For me a rifle would be used in two situations. One is protecting me and mine post natural disaster (16" barrel, low magnification optic, bright light). This is Florida and I'm 2 miles from the beach and 1 mile from the shittiest part of town, you do the math. The other is, given I had the time to even get to the rifle, protecting me and mine in the event that we were broken into in the middle of the night (suppressed, with a light, and a low power optic).
In scenario one I'll have plenty of time to put on a chest rig, and could (in an extremely bad situation) potentially need more than the mag in the gun. The chest rig also has other things (pistol mags, knife, leatherman) attached that I might find useful. In scenario two I won't have time to grab anything beyond the carbine, if I need more than 28 rounds I'm ****ed anyway, and the discussion of where I stow my spare mags is kind of moot. Admittedly, it would be nice to have a spare mag in case of a malfunction, but at the distances we're talking here I'd probably be dead by the time the malfunctioning mag hit the floor.
And frankly the real use of my rifle, in terms of what it actually gets fired for, is training and competition and again I find that having the extra ammo and tools on my person comes in very handy in those situations.
So not everyone that shows up to a class wearing "tacticool" gear is doing so just because they saw it in a magazine. Hell, I train/compete wearing jeans, a t-shirt, my work boots, my carry holster, etc. I, and I suspect more than a few others here, HAVE thought about the effect of their training setup on their real-world environment and have adjusted accordingly.
Hmmm... trust a rifle built by some $9/hour lackie (DPMS advertised assembly positions paying $8.50 last year)
Then don't buy DPMS?;)
In all seriousness though, I think that your post, Hawkeye's, and mine all have something in common; we are the exceptions to the rule. We actually have the skill-set and/or experience to know what we're using and why. Whether it be tac-gear, parts guns, or Wolf ammo. :p
However, no matter how "switched on" WE all are (or think we are), we have all seen the guys at class that USMC03 is talking about. The guy with the tac-vest that covers up his pistol, the guy with the chest-rig straps that are unsecured and hang down over the grip of his pistol. The guy that bought the $500 kit from Model 1, never fired it before the first day of the class, but can't seem to figure out why it's not working right. The guy that has 12 pounds of crap on, all the tac-pants and kneepads and skateboard helmets that he thinks he needs and passes out from heat exhaustion, and then there's just the guys that have alot of nice shit but just can't shoot.
Frankly, if someone looks at me at a class or a match in my tactical yellow visor and Eagle chest rig and $3k rifle and thinks "there's one poseur asshole" it doesn't really matter to me. I (and I suspect nationwide and I know Hawkeye) have thought out what I'm doing and why and I know that it works for me in my applications. That's really the point here, and all that matters to me.
Robb Jensen
03-24-07, 10:48
Frankly, if someone looks at me at a class or a match in my tactical yellow visor and Eagle chest rig and $3k rifle and thinks "there's one poseur asshole" it doesn't really matter to me. I (and I suspect nationwide and I know Hawkeye) have thought out what I'm doing and why and I know that it works for me in my applications. That's really the point here, and all that matters to me.
Good point rob_s.
I saw this pic of you on the Backyard Outfitter website, you're famous dude!
http://www.woolrichelite.com/EliteInAction/EIA_galleryImages/EIA_gallery3-1.jpg
http://www.woolrichelite.com/EliteInAction/EIA_gallery3.htm
I sent 'em a pic of me with my pig I shot too. I doubt they'll post it though as I can't imagine they could stand to have two pics of me online.:D
What I find more humour are guys doing some courses with no kit...
If your doing a HR-PSD course - no a belt rig will not cut it. Of ocurse you see morons over here what just wear a belt rig too though :rolleyes:
RobS -- I just find the color of your vison abnoxious thats all ;)
Okay, I read most of this post but I am ADD like a mofo so... good stuff here, if you are looking for a first time bible, this is it.
But sh1t happens, get good at something, then change it, I almost never do the same thing twice in training, but that is life, learn the basics to a t, then modify. If you have that going for you, you can do anything. So, in saying that, if it is you first couple of "rodeos", work on the basics, no fancy stuff, no kit, nothing you wouldn't have in the "ideal" situation. Get that nailed down, then move one, not before.
Will
Two Cents:
Yes, keep it simple. Only use gear in training that you are actually going to use and use ALL of the gear you are going to use.
Some guys turn out like an Airsofter with more kit than an assaulter would need. Think about what your needs are and how you are likely to REALLY deploy your weapon.
On the other hand, don't leave gear that you might need (or be required to have in the real world) because you don't like it. An LEO might deploy his rifle right out of the trunk of his patrol car. He would have his duty uniform and duty belt on. He might add a plate carrier over his duty vest with a few extra mags. However, this same guy might come to a training course with a totally different belt set up than the one he uses on the job (no spray, radio and baton for example) and a plate carrier that that might actually interfere with his real duty set up.
If you are doing a typical crawl, walk, run you should start with little to no kit and build your skills first. Don't let kit become a training distraction and don't fight your kit. As you continue to train you will add kit. As you go through this process you will find what works and what does not. You may find that you have things rigged all wrong for typical duty. You find that what works good on a flat range will not work in a vehicle. You may find that you cannot even get in a vehicle with your current range rig.
The point is, don't buy gear just to buy it. Think of what you need, why you need it, and where in the hell you are going to put it.
You may also want to run a really stripped down rig and put all the extras in a GTS bag or small assault pack. Personally, I only run 5 mags if I can help it. However, I have 10 mags in an assault pack. If you are running a course where you have to take it all with you, consider this option.
On build rifles:
I don't know, I am sure there are some shifty home builds out there. However, I think the key is good parts and good gunsmithing. I have seen plenty of rebuilt rifles in the Army - new bolts, carriers, and bbl all on the same M4. Even a factory rifle was built at some point by someone.
For what it's worth....
two likely scenarios in which I may use a firearm against a threat.
1.) Hot home invasion. I jump out of bed startled by a noise, wearing flannel pajama pants and a T-shirt. My heart is thumping and I'm groggy and I have probably seconds to get my AR carbine
This scenario would be the premise for a real "civilian rifle" class. Sadly, I don't think there is one. Its all military/contractor oriented- or am I wrong?
This scenario would be the premise for a real "civilian rifle" class. Sadly, I don't think there is one. Its all military/contractor oriented- or am I wrong?
Most of the stuff out there seems to b as you describe. I'm taking a Randy Cain carbine class in April which I think is more about the skills than the tactics. I will see what I see when I'm there.
I took Pat Rogers class last December and thoroughly enjoyed it and learned alot; alot of skills, alot about my gear, and alot about my abilities (or lack thereof :D ). There were several things in the class that, while I found them informative and interesting, I'm not sure I'll personally ever use. I will absolutely be back next year for Pat's class, but I'm interested to see how it compares and contrasts to Randy's class. If Randy's carbine class is at all like his handgun classes, I think it will have a bit more of the basics.
Randy has a very interesting and effective way of teaching, wherein he has you going through some very rudimentary stuff early on and just keeps building on those rudimentary skills until you find yourself making 100 yard shots on a 10" steel plate with a handgun using a two-handed grip (unsuppported, in other words). Or making 50 yard shots on a steel IDPA target at night while Randy plays the light back and forth over the target. I'm assuming (and hoping) that the carbine class will be similar.
Pat assumes that you know what you're doing in terms of the basics when you show up. That's why he has prerequisites. He's not going over trigger control, grip, stance, etc. unless someone needs a refresher (in other words, they're screwing up :D ). You jump right in to shooting, and shooting alot, and it's fast paced and you're absorbing alot of information and skills. I think it is more LE/mil oriented but they're still good skills to have and Pat makes the classes entertaining and enjoyable.
things in the class that, while I found them informative and interesting, I'm not sure I'll personally ever use. [...]
Your experience mirrors mine with a 4day Tactical Response rifle class. Not only drills, but even most techniques- like high ready as the default position- seemed tailored for a team environment. You can't fault guys for who, as civilians and newbies to armed self defense, would like to adhere to the KISS principle- and prioritize the techniques one is most likely to use. For me, that means a low position/SUL for CQB with the carbine and keeping the sidestepping evasive motion I learned in the OPS pistol classes.
He's not going over trigger control, grip, stance, etc. [...] You jump right in to shooting, and shooting alot,
No problem with that- it may become a problem when a) you are a newbie or b) you are forced to learn new things in such a fast paced environment. I may be a slow learner who needs methodical step-by-step built techniques, but IMHO you can't learn new things and connect multiple already known skills to a new chain of action under stress. Per Donald Meichenbaum, founder of cognitive-behavior therapy and one of the pioneers of scientific "Stress Inoculation Training" (which many trainers refer to), three phases are required in SIT: The first focuses on getting to know specific information, preparing mentally. The second deals with skills acquisition and rehearsal in safe surroundings. The last provides opportunities to apply the learned skills across slowly (!) increasing levels of stressors.
From what I have heard Clint Smith may be one bastion of more civlian oriented training, but I am interested in your experience with Randy Cain as well.
Best Regards
Cato
While I do see your point about "train as you fight", some things are just not that simple. If I'm training to defend my home, I'm sure as hell not going to show up to class butt naked with the exception of my rifle:eek: . However, that is in all likelyhood how I will actually fight.
I think that most people buy gear fit for a clandestine operation and train for SHTF/.mil scenarios without thinking about the most likely situations that they would find themselves in. These people in my experience will tell you that they are ready for the worst case scenario, but will not think about what to do in the case of a mugging, home invasion, or carjacking. These people also seem to disregard their most likely killer (junkfood, TAB cola, and the lack of a good woman).
Readiness encompasses everything: Working out, eating right, seeing a head doc from time to time, driving safely, and lastly getting some good training suited for a civilian. By learning to be ready you will discover what works for you and what doesn't. Most civilians won't ever need anything other than a pistol, holster, and a spare mag. However, I see nothing wrong with taking .Mil oriented classes and buying gear that will make you look like a walking swiss army knife, as long as you realize the importance that type gear and training has in YOUR preparedness.
I have and use that kind of gear, and have trained to use it more proficiently than any other type of gear that I own. This is because I'm coming from a .Mil shooting background. I try to train sometimes using this gear just in case I may need to use it agian, and because I would rather have and not need then to need and not have. However, I mostly train with a pile of mags on the ground, and my rifle on a sling or a G36 in a pocket holster in my back strongside pocket with a spare mag in my weakside pocket. This is because it's the most likely way I will use my weapons.
I see the tacti-ninja gear as just another tool in the toolbox, just make sure that it's not the most important tool in YOUR toolbox if the scenario you will use it in is highly unlikely.
ETA: If it takes more than 5-10 seconds to put on your gear, then you are more than likely doing something VERY wrong.
Jay Cunningham
03-26-07, 15:19
"Civilian appropriate" training is out there. This May I'll be taking a Basic/Intermediate Defensive Handgun class from John Farnam. (http://www.defense-training.com/courses/handgun.html) He appears to be well regarded as a trainer and his emphasis is civilian CCW. I know that the requirements for his pistol class are IWB holster and carry gun and concealment garment. He does teach carbine but I believe his forte is the defensive use of the handgun.
Submariner
03-26-07, 17:21
There were several things in the class that, while I found them informative and interesting, I'm not sure I'll personally ever use. I will absolutely be back next year for Pat's class, but I'm interested to see how it compares and contrasts to Randy's class. If Randy's carbine class is at all like his handgun classes, I think it will have a bit more of the basics.
Randy has a very interesting and effective way of teaching, wherein he has you going through some very rudimentary stuff early on and just keeps building on those rudimentary skills until you find yourself making 100 yard shots on a 10" steel plate with a handgun using a two-handed grip (unsuppported, in other words). Or making 50 yard shots on a steel IDPA target at night while Randy plays the light back and forth over the target. I'm assuming (and hoping) that the carbine class will be similar.
Randy Cain's class sounds a lot like Louis Awerbuck's class (I've taken both pistol and carbine with Louis). It should. As Cain wrote:
Louis Awerbuck - He'll make you THINK.
While I don't steal his lesson plan, my concept and approach somewhat resembles his, and for good reason. He was my mentor. I spent over a decade coordinating classes for him before he finally convinced me to hang out my own shingle. He sets the standard by which all others are judged in my humble opinion.
Do you plan on making 50 yard shots at night in funky light conditions? Interesting skill but I doubt it is something I would ever be justified in using.
I disagree with your comments on Pat and building on basic skills. My 18 year-old daughter took his class having had no prior formal instruction. (You can bet she was taught something at home beforehand!) He took her from knowing not much to more than just rudimentary skills in three days. She has been back twice having improved significantly between classes, just applying the basics she learned from Pat. She started with an Aimpoint and her first real experience with irons was when Pat had the class use the Aimpoint as a ghost ring. Pretty simple concept once you understand the RDS. After acquiring basic skill sets, she subsequently learned to credibly use iron sights.
As rangergordo posted elsewhere today,
"1) First "mind-set". Pat emphasizes this the way the Tier'ed units do, not necessarily in vernacular but in actions.
...
4) Pat is incredible at getting the task across w/o spedning a whole lot of time talking about it."
Pat does a lot in three days. Looking forward to what can be learned in five.:D
Good post.
Personally, I'd like to be able to attend a class where I can wear blue jeans and run with a single spare AR mag in my back pocket, but that isn't conducive to the repetition needed to learn the various motor skills.
I think I've settled on two set ups. One belt oriented. The other Eagle patrol bandoleer oriented. Which one I'd use is based on if I had a gun on me already or not.
Personally, I'd like to be able to attend a class where I can wear blue jeans and run with a single spare AR mag in my back pocket, but that isn't conducive to the repetition needed to learn the various motor skills.
I would too. I think it's possible if everyone in the class agrees to do it, and if everyone brings a ton of mags to stage behind the firing line.
Do you plan on making 50 yard shots at night in funky light conditions? Interesting skill but I doubt it is something I would ever be justified in using.
It's not a skill that's developed it's a demonstration to the shooter of what they've learned. It's the culmination of the night shoot to demonstrate to yourself that the low-light skills really work.
Submariner
03-26-07, 21:23
Could we both be right, rob_s? Louis had 100 yard shots on a gray 8-inch steel plat, at night, doing the light thing. Yes, its a demonstration that the techniques work (or not). A confidence builder. [Aside: I was doing the mastering irons thing and didn't get enough light through the rear sight aperture; Louis insisted the smaller aperture should be used. Have gone to an Aimpoint since; works great in low light.] Yet, there are precious few occasions where doing that for real would be justified.
What are some examples of things from Pat's class you found "informative and interesting" but which you would probably not use?
Could we both be right, rob_s? Louis had 100 yard shots on a gray 8-inch steel plat, at night, doing the light thing. Yes, its a demonstration that the techniques work (or not). A confidence builder. [Aside: I was doing the mastering irons thing and didn't get enough light through the rear sight aperture; Louis insisted the smaller aperture should be used. Have gone to an Aimpoint since; works great in low light.] Yet, there are precious few occasions where doing that for real would be justified.
I wasn't arguing, just clarifying. This wasn't with a carbine but with a handgun.
What are some examples of things from Pat's class you found "informative and interesting" but which you would probably not use?
Severeal hours of the last day were spent doing a team drill in teams of four with the idea being to advance on a position and, when threatened, unstack and unleash an obscene volume of fire. Interesting, informative, entertaining, but given that the odds are that I'll never even use my rifle in a defensive role, the chances of my banding together with 3 others to use it in an offensive role are pretty slim.
Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoyed Pat's class and found will be back next year (if he'll have me), I just agree with the other poster that I'd like to see someone do a class that's more "civilian with one mag in the pocket" oriented.
Randy Cain's class sounds a lot like Louis Awerbuck's class ...My 18 year-old daughter took his class ...Looking forward to what can be learned in five.:D
Now you have my attention :D
J/K
Submariner
03-27-07, 09:32
I wasn't arguing, just clarifying. This wasn't with a carbine but with a handgun.
Louis did the same drill, at 50 yards, in Pistol I. Again, I understand putting the basic skills together. It's not something I would probably ever do in the real world.
In year's previous, Pat had no team drills. He must perceive a need or they would not have been added.
Interesting question, though. Will they continue given cost of ammunition vs. skill sets learned from the drill?
Personally, I would love to teach a class with everyone using some real plain jane grab n go gear. I have spent a ton of my time teaching regular not real gun oriented patrol cops to use the carbine, and that translates well to this type of training. The key is to have all the students on the same sheet of music.
Pat_Rogers
03-28-07, 07:18
"Pat assumes that you know what you're doing in terms of the basics when you show up. That's why he has prerequisites. He's not going over trigger control, grip, stance, etc. unless someone needs a refresher (in other words, they're screwing up ). You jump right in to shooting, and shooting alot, and it's fast paced and you're absorbing alot of information and skills. I think it is more LE/mil oriented but they're still good skills to have and Pat makes the classes entertaining and enjoyable."
**************************************************************Rob- were you sleeping from 0800-1000 on TD1???
Didn't cover stance, trigger control etc???? Really....
Yup, i do expect people to know something, but it is all about basics, and that is what i teach.
Re the dynamic drills. You are correct that you will likely never need them. Or the carbine for that matter.
I include drills like that for certain classes so that people can get to do things that they might not normally get to do.
Not sure what you consider "obscene" amount of shooting, but the number 1 man in that particular might shoot 60-90 rounds during each iteration.
Considering that in my other (real) classes we will shoot up to 1k a day, it is perhaps that your frame of reference is narrow.
Not sure about your expectations there Rob....
I guess I shouldn't have said that you didn't cover it at all, what I was intending was that you expected us to know what we were doing to a large degree.
As another example, I took a Bill Jeans handgun class last year as well. Comparing that to one of Randy's handgun 101 classes, Bill spent about as much time as you (about 2 hours) on the very basic skills of lining up the sights and pulling the trigger while Randy's 101 (if memory serves) that plus the draw stroke is most of TD1, and certainly all of the morning session. Bill's class, as yours, is about fighting where as Randy's 101 is more about the shooting skills you need to know in order to fight.
It's not about better or worse, it's just that one is different than the other.
As to the team drill, I thoroughly enjoyed it and use the word "obscene" in only the best sense of the word.:D As you say, the liklihood of my using the carbine at all, let alone using it in an offensive manner along with 3 other guys, is pretty slim. I am, as you know, what I believe you refer to as a "hobby shooter" so anytime I'm shooting is a good time for me.
Submariner
03-28-07, 09:11
10 USC 13 Section 311. Militia: composition and classes
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied
males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section
313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a
declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States
and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the
National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are -
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard
and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of
the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the
Naval Militia.
The exception broadens the age window to 64 for those who have served in the Regular Army, Navy, Air force or Marine Corps.
Read what the Second US Congress required all males, 17-45, to own and train with in The Militia Act of 1792. (http://www.constitution.org/mil/mil_act_1792.htm) These gentlemen knew exactly what was contemplated in the Second Amendment. Draw your own conclusions about common sense gear selection/mindset for tactical carbine students.;)
Freedom isn't free; you get to buy your own service rifle, pistol, and ammunition, even a bayonet.:D And train with them! Mindset, Marksmanship and Manipulation.
Read what the Second US Congress required all males, 17-45, to own and train with in The Militia Act of 1792. (http://www.constitution.org/mil/mil_act_1792.htm) These gentlemen knew exactly what was contemplated in the Second Amendment. Draw your own conclusions about common sense gear selection/mindset for tactical carbine students.;)
Freedom isn't free; you get to buy your own service rifle, pistol, and ammunition, even a bayonet.:D And train with them! Mindset, Marksmanship and Manipulation.
Amen sir. You and I have had our disagreements on other issues ;) , but that right there is the undisputable bottom line for me. No disputing that at all. Likelyhood does not event enter into the equation for me. I am not a mechanic in my day job and I have never had a flat tire on the road. But I dang well had my father teach me how to use a jack and a lug wrench, I routinly practice using them by rotating my own tires, etc., and keep them in my truck all the time.
All I know is ... Pat.. You better run some of these drills in the May class... or I'm gonna be hurt....:(
As to Gear... I think I've tried quite a bit of gear over the years in lots of different environments. And I've pretty much narrowed it down to a fairly simple rig that holds 6 mags, some ancillary gear, soem pistol mags, IFAK and Water. I like a Plate carrier, because if I'm using My gun against Bad people, I want to have some Protection from there guns...
Thanks for the reminder on the Founding Fathers Paul... I think to many people forget about that.......
I don't think it hurts anything to wear a simple chest rig / vest so you can have 3-4 mags on your person & readily assessable during a class. It certainly isn't required and I've seen guys do just fine without one but wearing one just makes it easier to focus on learning. Nobody wants to wait for you every single time you run out of ammo because you want to wear nothing but a pair of Speedo’s and a tank top. :D Not to mention you could be too pre-occupied with your mag situation to learn anything. Or at the very least you will miss parts of it; then screw up a drill, miss the round count for the drill, etc. Trust me, it has happened to me. You get too pre-occupied with the condition of your weapon, mag situation, hydrating, and boom you missed something that you paid your hard earned money to learn. I’d hope you are attending the class in the first place to learn how to properly deploy your weapons. Accuracy, weapons handling, malfunction drills, reloads, etc come first. Gear is completely secondary. It should help you learn, not be the focal point.
I’m not saying you need to run out and spend $500 on a CIRAS or RAV and be geared out like a Mil or overseas security contractor. A simple and relatively in-expensive Eagle, Blackhawk, TAG, etc chest rig or grap-in-go bag that holds 3-4 mags is fine. As a civilian will you ever use it outside of the class; probably not. Unless the zombies arrive, Al-Qeada launches a Red Dawn / D-day style assault, or my favorite the Shit-Hit-The-Fan situation arrives. Is it totally out of the question; no but the chances are damn slim. I’d bet some homeowner during the New Orleans hurricane was wishing he had one though.
Personally I normally get by with a simple belt set-up and Redi-Mag if it’s an AR oriented class. I might keep one or two more in a pants pocket to keep the belt pouch hot but that’s about it. That keeps 4-5 carbine mags readily accessible. My belt will also hold four 1911 mags or three Smith & Wesson/Glock mags depending on what I’m shooting & how I have it configured. For most classes that I’ve attended that’s more than enough. Sometimes I will wear my simple chest rig for convenience or if it’s a non-AR oriented class but my belt & Redi-Mag are my 1st gear choice for a class. This keeps my head in the class and not wondering if I have enough ammo on me to finish the drill.
nationwide
04-02-07, 21:51
"Civilian appropriate" training is out there.
I was thinking about this today, before I checked the thread and read your comment.
You know, there really is no difference between a Citizen's and a LEO's use of deadly force. The techniques, decision processes, and legal ramifications are nearly identical, except in some situations you can argue a "duty to act" for an on-duty LEO.
You have the same legal standards to engage someone with your firearm. You have the same mechanical skill needs, both being human. And you have the same psycological/emotional considerations as well.
I've taken training both as a LEO and a private Citizen, and the more I think about it, the less difference should be made, with regard to use of force.
The only different decision a private Citizen has to make is "fight or flight". LEO's usually don't get to make that call.
Jay Cunningham
04-03-07, 19:44
From John Farnam:
22Mar07
Rifle Slings:
Today, a friend called and wanted my advice on a sling for his new DSA/FAL. When I provide such advice, the question I usually ask first is: "What is the rifle for?" Put another way: "Whom are you trying to impress: your friends, or your enemies?"
Quite often, new purchasers have failed to think that one through. Assuming your rifle is for serious, rather than recreational, purposes, we need to know the context. In most of our Urban Rifle Classes, the context is "Domestic Policing/Domestic Personal Defense." We also instruct classes in "Military Rifle," but that context is not the same.
In Military Rifle classes, the emphasis is (1) functioning as a part of a team, (2) long-range, lethal engagement of enemy soldiers, (3) aggressively confronting, at gunpoint, persons of unknown intent, and (4) fire superiority.
In Urban Rifle classes the emphasis is on (1) functioning as an individual operator, (2) constructively interacting in a non-threatening manner, while armed, with persons of unknown intent, (3) relatively close-range, lethal engagement of VCAs who represent a direct threat to innocents, and (4) careful, individual shots, keeping in mind that the our ammunition supply is limited, resupply is unlikely, and errant shots, by definition, are going to hit something we didn't want to hit.
Within the later context, I have the best luck with a two-point sling. The one made by Blue-Force is excellent. Three-point slings may work fine in some military situations, but they do not lend themselves to a "grab-and-go" circumstance, as they take too long to climb into and get adjusted. One-point slings are fast, but the rifle tends to "dangle." The best one-point sling currently available is made by my friend and colleague, Henk Iverson, at Strike Tactical.
When using a two-point sling, attachment points need to be on the top side of the rifle, rather than on the under side. That way, the rifle will hang right-side-up when carried in front. The front attachment point needs to be near the front sight, but it may have to be on the left side, rather than directly on top, as attachment points on top obscure the sighting plane. Any good gunsmith can get this set-up installed.
At the end of the day, you should be able to comfortably sling your rifle in front, or to the rear, and still be able to quickly mount it from any starting posture Also, while the rifle is mounted, you should be able to quickly shift shoulders without the sling getting in your way or preventing you from moving the rifle from one shoulder to the other.
Without a suitable sling, your serious rifle is handicapped. And, after properly equipping yourself, you need to get into an Urban Rifle Course, with us or any other competent instructor, where you can run yourself and your equipment hard. Only then can you be relatively sure that you have respectable gear that is going to hold up and serve you adequately when it has to.
/John
Jeff first of all.....Thanks for starting this thread! For the rest of you I have to take my hat off to as well, there are some great points made here! I have had some cool and fun training in the military and from other Federal LEO's and have to say that I have picked up some habits that I wouldnt have in Civilian world! But I use them! I had to sit back and think a little about some of the mannerism Jeff talked about and I will be doing some things alot different! For the most part very informative! Thank You Gentlemen!
Grunt Out!
Re the dynamic drills. You are correct that you will likely never need them. Or the carbine for that matter.
I include drills like that for certain classes so that people can get to do things that they might not normally get to do.
Not sure what you consider "obscene" amount of shooting, but the number 1 man in that particular might shoot 60-90 rounds during each iteration.
Considering that in my other (real) classes we will shoot up to 1k a day, it is perhaps that your frame of reference is narrow.
Not sure about your expectations there Rob....
I sure am glad I had about 14 mags on me that day, not so sure it was great on the speed reload drills, Pat, when your comment to me was, "Mac, you're about to do a lot of shooting."
I sure am glad I had about 14 mags on me that day, not so sure it was great on the speed reload drills, Pat, when your comment to me was, "Mac, you're about to do a lot of shooting."
Yep, the guy next to me had 13 mags on him. He was shooting long after the rest of us were done.:D
After some thought (I won't claim it was considerable thought) I think this thread has been dancing around the real issue.
What is the purpose of civilian training? Before someone knee-jerks hear me out.
Is it to ingrain basic, intermediate and advanced shooting techniques?
Is it to ingrain muscle memory to get the civilian shooter familiar with his/her gear they would use in an emergency?
Is it to ingrain muscle memory to get the civilian shooter familiar with his/her gear they would use in a "typical" self-defense situation?
Is it some sort of combination of the above?
The purpose of the training should dictate the gear used, IMO. If you're there to get pure shooting techniques right every time then gear isn't as important. If you're there for the entire package then yes gear is important.
However, the 3-5 days of a course should never be a substitute for practice both dry and live fire, using the gear you're likely to use.
Those are all excellent questions.
The answers will vary considerably since the needs and desires of "civilians" (including police) are widely varied.
People should ask those questions and others like them as they continue to participate in formal instruction as well as those who are just starting. At some point, everyone's needs and desires can and will change, probably constantly over time.
The above post is sort of what I was thinking when I stated that I would love to teach a course devoted to a typical civilian, or "low gear" course with the AR. The key would be to have ALL the students have a very good understanding of their rifle/carbine with all the bugs worked out with both them and their equipment, and then concentrate on running the system in realistic scenarios they may face with the same expectations across the board. This would have to be a specialized class and not a typical course.
When I train my P.D. people, it works well because all my students are in the same type of job, and using similar gear. This is different from a private sector course where you have all sorts of folks showing up with many different backgrounds and use and a multi faceted conglomeration of firearms and gear. I know for a first hand fact that Pat Rogers does an outstanding job with both types of classes. The open classes are very tough to keep on track, as everyone has different goals and expectations as well as very different experience levels coming in to the course.
The key would be to have ALL the students have a very good understanding of their rifle/carbine with all the bugs worked out with both them and their equipment, and then concentrate on running the system in realistic scenarios they may face with the same expectations across the board. This would have to be a specialized class and not a typical course.
This is the sort of class I'd like to attend as well.
John_Wayne777
04-10-07, 07:03
concentrate on running the system in realistic scenarios they may face with the same expectations across the board.
I sort of break things down into three categories:
Level 1 -- Basic manipulation of the weapon, basic maintenance of the weapon, fundamentals of accuracy, basic movement, etc.
Level 2 -- Level 1 skills + the introduction of speed, multiple targets, advanced movement, failure drills/transitions to backup/secondary weapons, stress courses, low light etc.
Level 3 -- Level 1 + Level 2 skills + shoot/no shoot scenarios, force on force training....attempting to place the student in a scenario that is as close to the real thing as you can to simulate the split second decision making necessary in an actual gunfight.
There are a number of institutions and/or instructors who do a very good job at level 1 and level 2 stuff.....
But hardly anybody does the level 3 stuff.
Every time I have been to Blackwater I have suggested dedicated level 3 courses....especially for handgun.
As yet, no joy.
If I were to compare it to martial arts, level 1 would be "This is how you throw a punch". Level 2 would be "This is how you make effective combinations and react to an opponent's moves."
Level 3 would be putting on pads and doing some sparring.
While a few vocal yahoos on TOS have poopoo'd the idea, there are a few instructors (Randy Cain being one of them) that utilize airsoft for force-on-force training. I have yet to make it to one, but from what I hear it's quite the eye-opener. I would imagine that would take it to your "level 3".
John_Wayne777
04-10-07, 09:02
While a few vocal yahoos on TOS have poopoo'd the idea, there are a few instructors (Randy Cain being one of them) that utilize airsoft for force-on-force training. I have yet to make it to one, but from what I hear it's quite the eye-opener. I would imagine that would take it to your "level 3".
I think the revulsion to "training" with airsoft comes from the vocal group of airsofters who believe that their little adventures count as "training"...
That being said, people who actually know what they are doing can certainly use airsoft "weapons" to do training that is of actual benefit.
Personally I would prefer simunitions based training over airsoft if I could get it. Unfortunately that isn't always an option...:(
In the old days some guys used to use revolvers with primed cases with wads of cotton stuffed into them as training cartridges. I hear tell that was fairly effective.
In the old days some guys used to use revolvers with primed cases with wads of cotton stuffed into them as training cartridges. I hear tell that was fairly effective.
BTDT. At room distances you know you've been hit. Drives the lesson home.
Also had the opportunity to use a PRISM trainer with the little cartridges that shoot lasers at a screen. Well this one had a paintball type gun that fired a nylon ball, about the size of a paintball, at you if you didn't use cover.
I have recently contracted with a new training group to provide live weapons training for the organization. My training utilizes well documented and proven techniques and training into a very fluid, SAFE, 360 degree range concept. These live fire techniques can then be applied into disciplined force on force training directed by veteran police officers using airsoft weapons as a training tool and not a lifestyle.
www.forcevsforce.com
The main player behind this company, Steve Trujillo, is one of the few folks out there who has actually made some incredible shots in the real world. I assisted in the investigation on two of his shootings, as well as working with him in the training environment for almost 18 years. He is a first class gunfighter, and has proven himself in the field with pure applied skill. I will contact him about starting to post here.
Heavy Metal
04-12-07, 22:09
MILES gear was always fun.
Only problem with it was cheaters and the fact that concealment was cover as a leaf can stop a low powered laser.
Pat_Rogers
04-13-07, 06:03
The above post is sort of what I was thinking when I stated that I would love to teach a course devoted to a typical civilian, or "low gear" course with the AR. The key would be to have ALL the students have a very good understanding of their rifle/carbine with all the bugs worked out with both them and their equipment, and then concentrate on running the system in realistic scenarios they may face with the same expectations across the board. This would have to be a specialized class and not a typical course.
When I train my P.D. people, it works well because all my students are in the same type of job, and using similar gear. This is different from a private sector course where you have all sorts of folks showing up with many different backgrounds and use and a multi faceted conglomeration of firearms and gear. I know for a first hand fact that Pat Rogers does an outstanding job with both types of classes. The open classes are very tough to keep on track, as everyone has different goals and expectations as well as very different experience levels coming in to the course.
Thanks for the kind words Brother D!
You are correct re commonality of mission and equipment making life better. I am finishing up a mil class today. We are averaging 900rds/day/Shooter for the week, and very few problems (once more "match" triggers have no place in a carbine - KAC 2 stage failure)- what a surprise...).
Gear issues have long since been worked out since they have all deployed multiple times and this means that what they are receiving has to do with reality and not conjecture of those who fantasize in dark corners in front of computer screens.
While i truly enjoy the open classes, the diversity of people, reasons for attending and almost constant gear and gun problems (as well as lack of discipline that sometimes crops up) makes it harder work (and for less money).
Off to the range for more....
Rather than re-post twice, I updated another thread I had on a similar subject and am including a link to the post here.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=48108#post48108
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