View Full Version : Morality of shooting Russian ammo?
justin_247
01-03-10, 06:29
A short time after I was considering purchasing a S&W M&P 15R upper receiver assembly upon my return to the states, I was reading some world news and it now seems to me that the Russians are truly becoming an adversary of the United States. In the early 2000s I wasn't quite sure if this the was future of Russia even though it seemed like that was the direction they were slowly moving (for a while I thought they would become somewhat neutral / non-aligned), but now they've pretty much cemented their position. :mad:
I'm generally a free-trader, but I don't know what to think about buying ammo from a country that is helping the enemies of the U.S. Being that I'm in the military, I had a knee-jerk reaction at first... but then I thought about my free-trade credentials...
What do you guys think? I know there are a lot of people here who shoot Russian ammo, such as Wolf and the various [insert color here] Bear brands, as well as shoot old Russian surplus ammo, so I'd like to hear what you all think, as well.
Also, what company actually imports the Russian 5.45mm surplus (not brands like Wolf) for the various dealers, and what is the primary Russian export company?
Oh my god...
Enemies of the US... Russia neutral? Do you have a glimp of an idea about politics?
Get your bloody ammo. Ammo has no morality. Morality is strictly bound to an acting human being.
Otherwise would it be immoral to buy US ammo.. Why? For the bloody same reasons you have stated in your post...
For godīs sake..
Stay safe
Jan
justin_247
01-03-10, 06:48
Oh my god...
Enemies of the US... Russia neutral? Do you have a glimp of an idea about politics?
Since you're woefully ignorant, during the 90s nobody was really sure what direction Russia was heading in. In fact, for a short period of time the country was remarkably pro-US. And after 9/11, the Russian people were the single strongest supporters of the War on Terror outside of the US, and this reflected in their policies until the end of 2002.
Get your bloody ammo. Ammo has no morality. Morality is strictly bound to an acting human being.
First of all, I'm in the US military and morality is extremely important to what we do. What the money used to purchase that ammo is then turned around and used for is a moral issue.
Otherwise would it be immoral to buy US ammo.. Why? For the bloody same reasons you have stated in your post...
Sorry, dude, I don't draw a moral equivalence between the US and Russia. The AK-47 has killed more people in the twentieth century than the M-16 because the Russians (primarily the USSR) actively supported the vast majority of the world's totalitarian governments.
I am in the military,too.. And I lead men into combat... At least I studied politics.
Your point of view is a little bit too tight,hm?
What did the US in Cuba, South America, Phillipines,or the early Afghan war? M16 killed a lot of people too, innit?
Do what you think you have to do. But that kind of thinking is as dangerous than any other of your so called immoral systems..
justin_247
01-03-10, 07:20
I am in the military,too.. And I lead men into combat... At least I studied politics.
Your point of view is a little bit too tight,hm?
What did the US in Cuba, South America, Phillipines,or the early Afghan war? M16 killed a lot of people too, innit?
Do what you think you have to do. But that kind of thinking is as dangerous than any other of your so called immoral systems..
I'm not saying anything further to you, JMB. Thanks for your initial comment and have a nice day.
Oh my god...
Enemies of the US... Russia neutral? Do you have a glimp of an idea about politics?
You response was far less intelligent than his question, this while being offensive at the same time.
If you are a leader, you apparently need to refine your discussion methods so that they are educating rather than demeaning.
Ammunition manufacturers are not nationalised. Why should you discriminate towards them based on their country of residence? Sure, the factories employ Russians. They pay tax to the Russian government. But if you're going to trace where the money goes that far you can barely buy a single thing.
What about the Chicoms? How much Made in China isn't there on the shelves?
Personally I don't care. Unless it's from a government owned enterprise somewhere, I'd think twice about that..
The US Government has bought millions of rounds of Russian 7.62x39mm for use in Iraq and Afghanistan, and for training purposes.
I shot Chinese and Yugo ammo in the 80's, Russian, Czech, Hungarian, former DDR ammo in the 90's, and have shot a whole lot of Russian and Serbian ammo in the past decade.
Not something to get overly torqued over.
RogerinTPA
01-03-10, 08:40
We have (Russians and the US) have been historical adversaries (Cold War) since WWII. The only time we have taken our fingers off the nuclear trigger, was for a year or so after the "wall" came down. During my Service in various leadership positions, up to Division and Corp level, all our training was specifically focused towards destroying Russian (and Russian trained) forces globally. Our cultures, both being people who are rugged individualist (though theirs are of the extreme) are unwilling, in able, or incapable, of bowing to the other. Russian hard liners, like Putin, have always been in the background in the Russian Federation. Putin, while he was the President, made no bones about bringing Russia back to her former "greatness" in military power, and now pulling strings as the Prime Minister. This is nothing new.
So...it all depends on your level of morality, your personal wealth, your way of thinking, and your firearms training goals. If you choose to or not, so be it.
On a personal note, if I was on Active Duty, I would prefer to use there resources to build my firearms skills, in order to use said skills, against a possible enemy in the future, on the cheap.;)
ThirdWatcher
01-03-10, 08:43
Gentlemen, this is a forum and you should be prepared to defend your ideas without being offended... at the least, agree to disagree. We are all friends here.
justin_247
01-03-10, 08:52
Ammunition manufacturers are not nationalised. Why should you discriminate towards them based on their country of residence? Sure, the factories employ Russians. They pay tax to the Russian government. But if you're going to trace where the money goes that far you can barely buy a single thing.
Well, most of the surplus ammo was in fact manufactured by nationalized companies in the old USSR. And much of the contemporary equipment is marketed by a Russian state-owned company, Rosoboronexport.
What about the Chicoms? How much Made in China isn't there on the shelves.
Admittedly, a lot of people on this site and others rail against Chinese manufactured goods on a regular basis. I would like to try their 5.8x42mm ammo.
The US Government has bought millions of rounds of Russian 7.62x39mm for use in Iraq and Afghanistan, and for training purposes.
True, and helicopters, too. I don't see this continuing for much longer, though.
I shot Chinese and Yugo ammo in the 80's, Russian, Czech, Hungarian, former DDR ammo in the 90's, and have shot a whole lot of Russian and Serbian ammo in the past decade.
I shoot a lot of Serbian ammo (Prvi Partizan), too, but I haven't tried any Russian stuff. I haven't even shot Wolf, although I'm buying a few hundreds rounds when I get back to see how I like it.
Not something to get overly torqued over.
Just looking for opinions, that's all. This post wasn't actually generated by my own dislike of it, but rather seeing people railing against it on a regular basis.
On a personal note, if I was on Active Duty, I would prefer to use there resources to build my firearms skills, in order to use said skills, against a possible enemy in the future, on the cheap.;)
This is actually my primary line of thinking, but, like I said in my comment immediately above, I was curious as to other people's opinions.
And now that many of the Islamic militants are converting to AK-74s, the more surplus 5.45 we take off the market, the more they will have to pay. ;)
The US Government has bought millions of rounds of Russian 7.62x39mm for use in Iraq and Afghanistan, and for training purposes.
I shot Chinese and Yugo ammo in the 80's, Russian, Czech, Hungarian, former DDR ammo in the 90's, and have shot a whole lot of Russian and Serbian ammo in the past decade.
Not something to get overly torqued over.
Exactly. The US military has purchased "enemy" equipment before in order to maximize supply and logistics in hostile areas. Buying Russian small arms ammunition at $.05-$.50 a cartridge won't exactly pay off their debt and give everyone a bottle of vodka.
Just don't discuss matters of national security around your Russian ammo and you should be fine.
Seriously, if sometime in the next couple of decades we will be in conflict with Russia, I'd rather their practice ammo get consumed by US citizens than Russian citizens. That's just me, though...
justin_247
01-03-10, 10:04
Just don't discuss matters of national security around your Russian ammo and you should be fine.
Seriously, if sometime in the next couple of decades we will be in conflict with Russia, I'd rather their practice ammo get consumed by US citizens than Russian citizens. That's just me, though...
I've believed for a long time that the biggest threat from Russia isn't Russia, but the arms that they sell to our enemies. In this case, they don't seem to mind selling them to us, either.
Robb Jensen
01-03-10, 10:04
As the old saying goes "buy it cheap and stack it deep".
Jay Cunningham
01-03-10, 10:05
I'd rather their practice ammo get consumed by US citizens than Russian citizens.
Ha! Why shoot up all the good stuff when you can use up the Russkie stuff!! lol!!1 awesome
Ha! Why shoot up all the good stuff when you can use up the Russkie stuff!! lol!!1 awesome
This is likely a KGB plan to disable all the civilian owned weapons in the US. If they can encourage enough people to keep shooting steel cased, laquer coated ammo it will damage their extractors and gum up their chambers enough to render their weapons inert. This was actually part of the plot in Red Dawn, but they had to cut out some of the scenes to deal with time constraints.
Here's another possible way to look at it.
It appears that most (if not all) of the surplus 5.45 ammo (made during the time of the USSR) is being sold by an entity in Ukraine. The Soviets had an ammo plant in what is now their separate country.
A significant portion of the the people in Ukraine want to side with the "West" and some even want to join NATO. Russia wants to bring Ukraine back under its complete domination.
I assume that the money for this surplus ammo goes to a Ukrainian company and/or government entity. So if we buy this surplus ammo from Ukraine then the money we spend would be helping Ukrainians.
From that perspective buying the surplus Soviet/Russian 5.45 may actually be helping a current potential ally (Ukraine) and frustrate the current intentions of Russia. Granted we'd have to buy a LOT of Ukrainian ammo to have any practical impact, but morally we would presumably be benefiting the Ukrainians and frustrating the Russians.
Jay Cunningham
01-03-10, 10:29
This is likely a KGB plan to disable all the civilian owned weapons in the US. If they can encourage enough people to keep shooting steel cased, laquer coated ammo it will damage their extractors and gum up their chambers enough to render their weapons inert. This was actually part of the plot in Red Dawn, but they had to cut out some of the scenes to deal with time constraints.
You're right!
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_wW_MKCdrHDI/ShPaFrs74SI/AAAAAAAABcM/rsSWbvqq9TU/s320/KGB.jpg
John_Wayne777
01-03-10, 10:33
We live in a world where half of what we buy is made in China or any number of other countries with interests hostile to ours, drive cars powered by oil from nations who sponsor terrorism and our government function is largely financed by a bunch of people most of us wouldn't walk across the street to piss on.
...so using Russian ammo is probably the least of our worries. ;)
RogerinTPA
01-03-10, 10:42
Just don't discuss matters of national security around your Russian ammo and you should be fine.
That cracked my ass up! I needed a good laugh this morning.:p
You're right!
You're right they're still watching, but they have a friendlier name now. :)
FSB: Federal'naya Sluzhba Bezopasnosti (Federal Security Service)
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/russia/fsb/fsb_logo.gif
Can I have the last six minutes of my life back?
Submariner
01-03-10, 12:06
The US Government has bought millions of rounds of Russian 7.62x39mm for use in Iraq and Afghanistan, and for training purposes.
Gee, would it not have been better to save all the 7.62X39 which we destroyed after we conquered Iraq? We might not have had to buy so much.:rolleyes:
The US Government has bought millions of rounds of Russian 7.62x39mm for use in Iraq and Afghanistan, and for training purposes.
Not something to get overly torqued over.
Along with contracting Russian helicopters complete with vodka fueled pilots, using Russian howitzers with Russian ammo, Russian mortars, heavy machine guns, etc, etc.
Shoot your ammo-it doesn't care where it comes from. Honestly, I'd say you're overthinking this whole thing. Then again-I shop at Walmart, so I'm aiding the enemy as well.
I am too poor to let politics determine the country of origin of my ammo. I may sometimes steer away from corrosive in some things, but only because I sometimes don't have the time (4 kids) to clean my weapons immediately as much as I would like to.
I say take advantage of cheap ammo while we can...it won't last forever..
Oh my god...
Enemies of the US... Russia neutral? Do you have a glimp of an idea about politics?
Get your bloody ammo. Ammo has no morality. Morality is strictly bound to an acting human being.
Otherwise would it be immoral to buy US ammo.. Why? For the bloody same reasons you have stated in your post...
For godīs sake..
Stay safe
Jan
what's a "glimp"?
I am in the military,too.. And I lead men into combat...
really? well shout it out! you'll find a lot of bros here...
what branch, rank, currently stationed?
or is that "opsec"?
Alpha Sierra
01-03-10, 13:29
Let me ask a pointed question, and no offense is meant. Just to make you think.
Evidently you are at least considering the possibility that having any financial deals with businesses based or that originate in a country that you consider our enemy is immoral.
So if you think that way, why don't you just act on your convictions? What does it matter what anyone else thinks?
geminidglocker
01-03-10, 14:28
Before I injured my back I had gotten my run time down to ten miles in ninety-minutes. I was intending to go to Ranger school, finish another four years in the U.S. Army, and then learn the Soviet National Anthem, and go join their military. I wanted to fight against Chechnya, and Georgian Muslim separitsists and Terrorists. We had our 9-11-01, they had the Beslan incident and the incident at Mocow Theatre. I just want to kill terrorists. I don't care who I fight for. I still contribute what I can in the way of simple propaganda and intelligence, but now that I'm out of the fight, that's the best I can offer. Remember this though, the Soviet people were as offended by Beslan as we were by 9-11. We are united against the same enemy.
In Beslan, Civilians are prohibited from owning Military weapons and ammo, however When the townspeople showed up at the site with loaded AK mags to donate to the Soldiers, nobody said a word, nor were the civilians questioned nor detained. God Bless Mother Russia.
I don't care where My ammo comes from as long as it goes Bang!!!!!:D
Hell If I did care I would be having sleepless nights over all the Steel core i bought for My AK that was made in China. remember the 60 bucks a case ?I bought Thousands of rounds in the 80's.
After Clinton ban all ammo from them I started Buying wolf for my AK.Now I am into the M-4 after being trained on it ,I Buy my 5.56 at the cheapest price I can find it.you know come to think of it, I have not shot any US made ammo in My M-4.
Even My pistols, My carry ammo is US ,but my practice ammo has always been the cheapest I can find, which is most of the time Russian.
Since you're woefully ignorant, during the 90s nobody was really sure what direction Russia was heading in. In fact, for a short period of time the country was remarkably pro-US. And after 9/11, the Russian people were the single strongest supporters of the War on Terror outside of the US, and this reflected in their policies until the end of 2002.
Familiarize yourself with the book titled The Grand Chessboard by Zbigniew Brzezinski. It can be freely downloaded from www.scribd.org and a few other sites in .pdf form. EXCELLENT read.
Despite all of the general crap between both nations we are using Soyuz to maintain the Space Station. We're constructing the last of 4 External Tanks down in New Orleans East now... We're using Russian air space and Russian controlled land routes for our supply lines in Afghanistan. Something IS gonna give.
Not true. As a matter of fact the U.S has purchased even more foreign ammmunition and military equipment for ongoing training in Iraq and Afghanistan as well as for use by U.S military personnel for familiarization training.
Islamic insurgents will use whatever weapons they can get their hands on. Don't overthink this too much.
Well, most of the surplus ammo was in fact manufactured by nationalized companies in the old USSR. And much of the contemporary equipment is marketed by a Russian state-owned company, Rosoboronexport.
Admittedly, a lot of people on this site and others rail against Chinese manufactured goods on a regular basis. I would like to try their 5.8x42mm ammo.
True, and helicopters, too. I don't see this continuing for much longer, though.
I shoot a lot of Serbian ammo (Prvi Partizan), too, but I haven't tried any Russian stuff. I haven't even shot Wolf, although I'm buying a few hundreds rounds when I get back to see how I like it.
Just looking for opinions, that's all. This post wasn't actually generated by my own dislike of it, but rather seeing people railing against it on a regular basis.
This is actually my primary line of thinking, but, like I said in my comment immediately above, I was curious as to other people's opinions.
And now that many of the Islamic militants are converting to AK-74s, the more surplus 5.45 we take off the market, the more they will have to pay. ;)
It's not like your buying from Robarms or Leatherman...
:p
Submariner
01-03-10, 15:52
We live in a world where half of what we buy is made in China or any number of other countries with interests hostile to ours, drive cars powered by oil from nations who sponsor terrorism and our government function is largely financed by a bunch of people most of us wouldn't walk across the street to piss on.
...so using Russian ammo is probably the least of our worries. ;)
Yup. Wait until they stop taking Yankee dollars...
Army Chief
01-03-10, 19:12
I've little interest in Russian ammunition because of quality issues, but I do think that the OP's question was valid, probative and worth considering. Some of the responses I saw here caused me to double check my browser's address bar to make sure I was actually watching this unfold on M4CN.
Personally, I tend to take my cues from the same government that most of us serve -- or have served -- for much of our adult lives. If there were cause for open alarm here, or some reason to be concerned about the trade impact of supporting the munitions production base of a potential competitor, then I believe at some point the government would step in and either stop commercial importation and sales or begin applying tarriffs, etc. to make these products less competitive in our market.
On a private, individual level, we each have to make our own decisions on issues like this. Personally, I don't see an especially strong moral component in play here. Russia is not a trusted friend, but neither are they the old CCCP. Even if they were, the fact that they are exporting ammunition to us sort of negates most of our concerns, since from their perspective, they are supplying ammunition to people who could very well end up using it against them.
AC
Why should anyone care where the ammo or weapon came from as long as you're the one using it? This should give you a boner:
http://i46.tinypic.com/2d01fkz.jpg
Russians can have all my pretty paper currency if they give me their bullets and guns.
decodeddiesel
01-04-10, 10:40
The Libertarian in me is screaming "when we stop trading is when we go to war."
ForTehNguyen
01-04-10, 10:42
damn that crate of PKMs is sweet
The Libertarian in me is screaming "when we stop trading is when we go to war."
absolutely, its bad business to shoot/bomb your business partner
Man... this sucks... I was made in the Soviet Union... so should I take a moral stance against myself?
Honestly, O.P. I would not worry about it. If I have no problems buying ammo from a nation that I lived in and my parents could not wait to get the F out of, then you should not have a problem buying ammo from them either lol.
There is no morality here, at the end of the day your purchase of a few hundred or even ten thousand rounds of ammo from the Russian Federation is but a small drop in the bucket. In 2009 we imported 245,000 Barrels per day from Russia. Lets use an avarage of $75/Barrel, thwt would be $18.4Mil/day in oil from Russia. I doubt you will buy that much ammo in your entire life.
So if the US spends more money with Russia in one day than you will in your entire life, is it really worth the worry?
I doubt it.
CarlosDJackal
01-04-10, 12:48
Ask yourself these questions:
(1) Are you aiding any past, present, or future enemy by purchasing ammo that is already in these United States?
(2) Will your decision not to purchase x-rounds of Wolf ammo going to make a difference on the balance of power anywhere?
(3) Would there even be a debate if our very own government trusted us enough to actually sell us surplus stocks of ammo and other items versus destroying these or giving them away to other countries (most of whom use the same supplies against us)?
Personally, I have no issue buying ammo or other items that are supposedly made in Russia. They are inexpensive and allows me to shoot more and train more. it's not like I am placing an order directly tot he factory to produce and sell me the ammo. As far as the original manufacturers are concerned, what I purchase has already been bought and paid for before they even land on out shores.
If you are going to take this type of a stance against Russian ammo, are you going to take a similar stance against Arab Oil, (cheap) Chinese products, etc.? YMMV.
To me, the morality of buying Saudi (or Venezuelan, for that matter) oil is much more questionable. For those who question morality of using Russian ammo: have you guys switched to non-gasoline public transport, bicycles and horses for your transportation needs?
Russian ammo to me as at about the same level of "morality" as Chinese-made slippers.
rubberneck
01-04-10, 13:46
Russia is a major exporter of metals (especially precious metals) and Oil. At any given time the gas you put in your car or the oil used to lubricate it could be Russian. I don't think there is any moral implication for using Russian ammo.
IMHO the Chinese are more of a threat to our way of life than the Russian's and you can't swing a dead cat without hitting something made in China, not to mention they own billions and billions of dollars worth of our treasury bills.
Von Rheydt
01-04-10, 14:51
Here's one for you.
Back when we were facing the Russian hordes etc, etc. I had official access to AK's and AMD65 - the Hungarian one with the grey plastic, nicer quality IMHO.
Anyway to be able to shoot these we needed the correct ammo. I requisitioned the ammo and received 5K. Now I had to personally go and grovel to get this ammo. During my grovelling I was told by an ammunition supply Warrant Officer type god that the British Army bought it from a well known arms dealer. He had bought it from an "intermediary" company because his own respectable company could not buy ammo from the Libyans. And, you guessed it, the Libyams had received the ammo from the Russians.
Wheels within wheels.
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