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rocket
01-03-10, 14:11
At the risk of not starting another 1911 thread, is there a comparison thread for quality 1911's for the money. I've searched and read many threads bashing kimber and taurus. Praises for Springfield. I would like a more extensive and objective comparison between manufacturers if there is one. Any links please? Thanks.

usaffarmer
01-03-10, 14:27
The kimber desert warrior that i have runs like a top. I just wish it had front checkering. I changed the ambi-safety and added a mag well. It runs better than my wilson cqb elite in cold sub 10* weather. and they are not really wet with lube which in the cold weather will hinder operation.

I have had a couple kimber tle handguns and they all ran fine.

The Taurus will not fit in standard holsters, will not take mil-spec parts, and a couple companys have come out with better sights for them. So out of the box if you dont like it and dont want so sink a lot of money into it, dont buy it. Reliabilty i have heard alot of good things about them. BUT would I bet my life on it, not with out running it for 1000 plus rounds with both social and range ammo.

Back to the kimber thing... I have seen some come into the shop with failer to feed and failer to extract, we sent the back to kimber and they come back with new barrels and new slides, Now why in the hell are you replacing a slide on a 1911? shouldnt that be done right the first time around? but they did take care of it and it was fine after that.

The springfields i have had a chance to shot where very nice for the price, again ambi safetys would have to go. I dont have alot of experiance with them since i dont own one, and haven't.

Good luck, there are a gaggle of companies that make great 1911's and just as many that are not.

rocket
01-03-10, 14:50
Thanks for the info...I guess what I'm looking for is a comparison for other brands, such as Colt, S&W, I hear good things about Dan Wesson, etc. I just didn't want to start another thread, so I'm looking for links on here or other websites. I've been steered away from Kimber and Taurus by what I've read on this forum. I'm not in the market for a 1911 yet, but perhaps in about a month. That being said, I'd like a good production 1911 to start with to eliminate intial cost and go from there. I'd just like to do a bit of research for a while. Budget: $1000-$1200.

moyler
01-03-10, 17:10
...I'd just like to do a bit of research for a while. Budget: $1000-$1200.

Gaggles of 1911 information on these forums: http://forums.1911forum.com/ and: http://forum.m1911.org/

For your budget, I would look for a Dan Wesson Valor. Reason: No MIM, well built, government slide, fixed sights.

rocket
01-03-10, 17:20
Gaggles of 1911 information on these forums: http://forums.1911forum.com/ and: http://forum.m1911.org/

For your budget, I would look for a Dan Wesson Valor. Reason: No MIM, well built, government slide, fixed sights.

Fantastic! Exactly what I needed. Thanks a lot!

subzero
01-03-10, 17:24
Gaggles of 1911 information on these forums: http://forums.1911forum.com/ and: http://forum.m1911.org/

For your budget, I would look for a Dan Wesson Valor. Reason: No MIM, well built, government slide, fixed sights.

Doesn't the Valor have the adjustable Novak rear?

I've fingered a couple, I've been impressed regardless of the adjustable sight.

To the OP: rob_s has a good thread here (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=3096) comparing a Wilson CQB, a YoBo and an Ed Brown 1911. It's a good read.

moyler
01-03-10, 18:31
Doesn't the Valor have the adjustable Novak rear?



You are right, they are the adjustable defensive sights. Profile is similar to the fixed variety. Changes my opinion only slightly, though I prefer fixed sights.

Thanks.

usaffarmer
01-03-10, 19:58
I have seen used warriors for 750 to 900 bucks. The springfield TRP tactical is a nice buy and used in your price range. Smith makes some good ones as well. Go to a shop and finger a couple or all of them. Thats the best way, you can read and read all you want. Untill you pick on up, you just dont know.

milosz
01-03-10, 20:33
The Valor is going to Heinie Straight-8s for the 2010 model year. Also going way up in price, per the 1911forum.com forums. There will be a stainless model (MSRP ~$1650) and a black model (with their metal treatment that's similar to Melonite/Black Diamond) for a touch over $2k MSRP.

Dan Wesson puts out a good product, but the Valors are within a couple hundred street price on some models of Brown/Wilson and just about equal to a Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special. That will be a tough sell, IMHO.

milosz
01-03-10, 20:42
To the larger question - it's not as easy as with something like an AR-15 as far as a checklist. The 1911 criteria are more subjective (function is objective, of course, but hard to spot from looking the pistol over or checking off specs).

Colt makes a good base pistol in either Series 80 or Series 70 form these days. They're a bit higher than Springfield's base model because of finishes (blued vs. parked) and material (almost no MIM in a Colt, if you care) and where they're built (Springfield frames come from Brazil for lower end models, all Colts are made in the US).

Dan Wesson was the mid-range champion for a couple of years - bobtail commanders for $1k, full-size Valors for $1300ish, plain stainless 1911s for $800-1000. Their prices are going up across the range this year.

http://www.10-8performance.com/id8.html - Hilton Yam on the qualities required of a duty 1911

moyler
01-03-10, 21:34
The Valor is going to Heinie Straight-8s for the 2010 model year. Also going way up in price, per the 1911forum.com forums. There will be a stainless model (MSRP ~$1650) and a black model (with their metal treatment that's similar to Melonite/Black Diamond) for a touch over $2k MSRP.

Dan Wesson puts out a good product, but the Valors are within a couple hundred street price on some models of Brown/Wilson and just about equal to a Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special. That will be a tough sell, IMHO.

About a year ago I remember seeing them for around $1,100. - $1,150 at Bud's and on GB. Looks like whatever the best bang for the buck is, usually ends up going up, in bucks.

I ended up purchasing one of the more expensive offerings on your end-list and was quite disapointed, I wish I had bought the Wesson. The best pistol in those deep waters, in my opinion, is made by Ed Brown.

David Thomas
01-04-10, 11:36
At the risk of not starting another 1911 thread, is there a comparison thread for quality 1911's for the money. I've searched and read many threads bashing kimber and taurus. Praises for Springfield. I would like a more extensive and objective comparison between manufacturers if there is one. Any links please? Thanks.


The trouble is that Sprinfield and Kimber have been building a ton of 1911's in a ton of variations with quality control that has had its ups and downs over a span of many years. There are too many variables for any real meaningful or extensive comparison in my opinion.

With Kimber and Sprinfield's non-custom shop guns, it is a bit like rolling the dice. I have had great luck with Kimber, but all of mine are older - I think they are all atleast 5 years old or older. New Kimbers do not have a very good reputation.

If you are just getting into 1911's there are at least 2 great buys in the EE of this forum right now. One Yost 1* with a well documented past and a Wilson that appears to be thoroughly tested. There may be others as well.

In my opinion, you cannot get something for nothing when it comes to 1911's. Either you pay for quality in the begining (price tag of $1,500 or more) or you gamble on an inexpensive 1911. However, if you chose the later, do not be surprised if you find out that you have a 1911 that is unreliable or has a part break.

joe138
01-04-10, 13:19
Check out 10-8 forums, plenty of information on the 1911.

d90king
01-04-10, 13:25
The Valor is going to Heinie Straight-8s for the 2010 model year. Also going way up in price, per the 1911forum.com forums. There will be a stainless model (MSRP ~$1650) and a black model (with their metal treatment that's similar to Melonite/Black Diamond) for a touch over $2k MSRP.

Dan Wesson puts out a good product, but the Valors are within a couple hundred street price on some models of Brown/Wilson and just about equal to a Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special. That will be a tough sell, IMHO.

If the pricing you quote is accurate, they have ruined the perfect niche that they filled....

theJanitor
01-04-10, 14:33
The trouble is that Sprinfield and Kimber have been building a ton of 1911's in a ton of variations with quality control that has had its ups and downs over a span of many years. There are too many variables for any real meaningful or extensive comparison in my opinion.

With Kimber and Sprinfield's non-custom shop guns, it is a bit like rolling the dice. I have had great luck with Kimber, but all of mine are older - I think they are all atleast 5 years old or older. New Kimbers do not have a very good reputation.

If you are just getting into 1911's there are at least 2 great buys in the EE of this forum right now. One Yost 1* with a well documented past and a Wilson that appears to be thoroughly tested. There may be others as well.

In my opinion, you cannot get something for nothing when it comes to 1911's. Either you pay for quality in the begining (price tag of $1,500 or more) or you gamble on an inexpensive 1911. However, if you chose the later, do not be surprised if you find out that you have a 1911 that is unreliable or has a part break.

agreed. the life cycle of a quality 1911 is SO long, that used guns are the only way i'll go at this point, even if i'm getting a base pistol for a gunsmith-build. there really is no need to pay for a brand-new pistol when there are quality used one's right now. i'm looking hard at the one that David referred to. it would make a great carry/HD gun, for sure

Kent

theJanitor
01-04-10, 14:35
If the pricing you quote is accurate, they have ruined the perfect niche that they filled....

they did ruin it. over $1900. they had a great thing going

http://cz-usa.com/products/view/dan-wesson-valor/

ToddG
01-04-10, 15:13
Hmm, comparing 1911s.

I'd compare them to Ford Mustangs.

The Mustang has been around for a long time and many consider them classics.

Many of the "classic" Mustangs can't actually meet modern standards of reliability and performance, but fans like to pretend they did.

A lot of people think they're wicked cool. The majority of people who own them don't actually own one of the wicked cool ones, but like to pretend they do.

Most people who own them can't actually do anything with them that they couldn't do with a Corolla, but they like to pretend they could.

A lot more people own 6cyl Mustangs than own GT500s but every Mustang owner acts like he's got a GT500.

If you beat a Mustang owner, he'll blame the road or say you're just a more skilled driver. If a Mustang owner beats you, he'll tell you how much better his car is than yours.

Comparisons are fun!

William B.
01-04-10, 16:39
Hmm, comparing 1911s.

I'd compare them to Ford Mustangs.

The Mustang has been around for a long time and many consider them classics.

Many of the "classic" Mustangs can't actually meet modern standards of reliability and performance, but fans like to pretend they did.

A lot of people think they're wicked cool. The majority of people who own them don't actually own one of the wicked cool ones, but like to pretend they do.

Most people who own them can't actually do anything with them that they couldn't do with a Corolla, but they like to pretend they could.

A lot more people own 6cyl Mustangs than own GT500s but every Mustang owner acts like he's got a GT500.

If you beat a Mustang owner, he'll blame the road or say you're just a more skilled driver. If a Mustang owner beats you, he'll tell you how much better his car is than yours.

Comparisons are fun!

Do you see a lot of 1911's fail in your profession? Do you see any makes of 1911 that stand out as better or worse in your opinion?

theJanitor
01-04-10, 16:53
Hmm, comparing 1911s.

I'd compare them to Ford Mustangs.

The Mustang has been around for a long time and many consider them classics.

Many of the "classic" Mustangs can't actually meet modern standards of reliability and performance, but fans like to pretend they did.

A lot of people think they're wicked cool. The majority of people who own them don't actually own one of the wicked cool ones, but like to pretend they do.

Most people who own them can't actually do anything with them that they couldn't do with a Corolla, but they like to pretend they could.

A lot more people own 6cyl Mustangs than own GT500s but every Mustang owner acts like he's got a GT500.

If you beat a Mustang owner, he'll blame the road or say you're just a more skilled driver. If a Mustang owner beats you, he'll tell you how much better his car is than yours.

Comparisons are fun!


some of us even have humor. as a diehard 1911 guy and a former owner of a 65 mustang, i found this downright funny :D

David Thomas
01-04-10, 17:19
some of us even have humor. as a diehard 1911 guy and a former owner of a 65 mustang, i found this downright funny :D

Funny, but also very accurate.

I always hated the 4 cyl mustangs of the 80's.

ToddG
01-04-10, 17:26
Do you see a lot of 1911's fail in your profession? Do you see any makes of 1911 that stand out as better or worse in your opinion?

The most honest assessment I can offer is that it's more about the person than the gun. Someone who understands how to make a 1911 work is going to be fine... he's probably got good parts that are properly fitted in a quality gun. Someone who bought a 1911 simply because The Internet told him to is likely going to have all sorts of problems.

If I were going to buy a 1911 for myself, I honestly don't know where I'd start. Actually, I do. I'd call Larry Vickers and buy whatever he told me to. :cool:

BT2012
01-04-10, 17:34
If I were going to buy a 1911 for myself, I honestly don't know where I'd start. Actually, I do. I'd call Larry Vickers and buy whatever he told me to. :cool:

Yes, Larry has a very short list of recommendations.

William B.
01-04-10, 17:53
The most honest assessment I can offer is that it's more about the person than the gun. Someone who understands how to make a 1911 work is going to be fine... he's probably got good parts that are properly fitted in a quality gun. Someone who bought a 1911 simply because The Internet told him to is likely going to have all sorts of problems.

If I were going to buy a 1911 for myself, I honestly don't know where I'd start. Actually, I do. I'd call Larry Vickers and buy whatever he told me to. :cool:

I own two 1911's that have no internal modifications. A SW1911PD and an early Sig Arms GSR. I'm confident in them both, but I have been considering the practicality of a Glock lately. The reputation, parts availability, and simplicity of operation are pretty attractive.
That being said, however, the 1911 is a battle-proven firearm, there are many replacement parts for it, and it isn't difficult to operate. My SW has given me no problems since about 500rds. It has well over 1,000 now. The Sig is 500rds into its break-in and I've had zero problems with it.

William B.
01-04-10, 17:53
Yes, Larry has a very short list of recommendations.

Are these recommendations available for my viewing pleasure?

BT2012
01-04-10, 18:08
Are these recommendations available for my viewing pleasure?

He gave the thumbs up on Wilson, NH, Ed Brown, Les Baer and Springfield Custom. Only 5" barrels are recommended and if you had any 1911s with shorter barrels running reliably go buy yourself a lotto ticket :D.

Dos Cylindros
01-04-10, 18:08
I will echo others in their recommendations of the information to be obtained at 10-8 performance and 10-8 forums.com. Hilton Yam and the people who post there make their recommendations on daily use. Few guns get abused and mistreated like an open carry duty gun. I have owned 1911's of all types now and I will give my experience.

Kimber: I owned two, and neither of them ever proved reliable. I know some work for alot of poeple, my two examples did not. Both of these were commander (or Kimbers verison of) length guns.

Les Baer: I owned a full size 5" Thunder Ranch for a long time and it was a great gun. It never malfunctioned and ran like a top. I regretfully sold it off to fund another project and I wish I had not (do in no part to the fact that it was serial number TRS0098!).

Wilson Combat: I owned a CQB compact which was nothing but trouble from the word go. It would not even reliably feed factory manufactured 230 grain hardball. It went shortly after I purchased it and began testing it for carry use.

Springfield Custom: My current 1911 is a custom carry built from the ground up by the Springfield Custom Shop. It is a full size, steel framed gun and is the finest 1911 I have ever had my hands on (those of you who are familiar with Springfield Custom can relate to their quality). Has never malfunctioned, is a tack driver and also looks good to boot.

MARS Armament Colt Axiom: This is currently being built as I type this so I don't know yet. Given Steve Morrisons reputation, and my conversations with him, plus his work on one of my M4 uppers I have no doubt it will be the equal or better than my Springfield Custom. This is also a full size steel frame 1911.

In short, the only 1911's I have had problems with are non full size guns. Not to say that the smaller formats can't be made to run right, it's just a crap shoot sometiemes. This feeling is echoed by 10-8 performance. You just have to realize that there are few bargains to be had in the 1911 world. Hilton's web site explains it best by saying "you can buy two to four of the current duty handguns for what you would spend on one good to go 1911."

Ed L.
01-04-10, 18:11
My Kimber Warrior was nothing but trouble. I ditched it after 3 trips to two different gunsmiths.

While some people have had very good examples, other people have had far less success.

10-8 no longer recommends the Warrior, as this thread linked indicates: http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=custom1911&Number=56972&Searchpage=6&Main=56857&Words=&topic=&Search=true#Post56972

rocket
01-04-10, 18:51
So, it seems a lot of people have had various problems with a variety of different 1911's regardless of make and model. The reoccurring theme seems to be: 5" model and stay away from Kimber. All others, Les Baer, DW, Colt, S&W, SA, Wilson, etc....we're pretty much rolling the dice?? I've been browsing the other fourms as I"ve been suggested, and I've heard less complaints about S&W than any other model. Colt S70 seems to also get good reviews. I don't have $2000 or more:( to really play with. I'm still working on a AR build. I think I'm going to go with the S&W or possibly Colt gold cup match S70. It seems like the "safest" bet in a platform of unknown reliability. Although I'll keep my eye on the EE...unfortunately, this will be a layaway item for probably a month...did I mention I'm purchasing an M&P 45 as well? Ahhhh, no children or wifey....it could be worse!:D Thanks for all the help everyone! Oh, one last question, anyone play around with DW's 10mm 1911??

Mark Phelps
01-04-10, 18:53
In short, the only 1911's I have had problems with are non full size guns. Not to say that the smaller formats can't be made to run right, it's just a crap shoot sometiemes.

I really think you are on to something. I own Springfields, Kimbers, even an el-cheapo Rock Island G.I. model. All have been great guns, but all are full size models with good mags.

nking
01-04-10, 19:31
The most honest assessment I can offer is that it's more about the person than the gun. Someone who understands how to make a 1911 work is going to be fine... he's probably got good parts that are properly fitted in a quality gun. Someone who bought a 1911 simply because The Internet told him to is likely going to have all sorts of problems.

There is some true wisdom in this post. I have seen every brand have some issues and every brand hit home runs. If anything, the operator's understanding of the platform seems to be the deciding factor.

theJanitor
01-04-10, 21:10
He gave the thumbs up on Wilson, NH, Ed Brown, Les Baer and Springfield Custom. Only 5" barrels are recommended and if you had any 1911s with shorter barrels running reliably go buy yourself a lotto ticket :D.

and yet he pulled his name from the signature model. i have a Vickers built colt. and it's perfect - shoots straighter than a laser, and runs and runs. since i'm allergic to cleaning, this is a plus:D

Dos Cylindros
01-04-10, 21:13
I really think you are on to something. I own Springfields, Kimbers, even an el-cheapo Rock Island G.I. model. All have been great guns, but all are full size models with good mags.

I am just of the opinion that the full size 5" gun was the way it was initially designed. Unlike Glock, S&W M&P, Sig, H&K, etc the format does not adapt as well to the "cut down" formats. That being said, most of the higher end 1911 manuacturers can make a commander size gun run correctly. By higher end I mean semi custom like Wilson, Baer, Springfield Custom and not production guns like Kimber and even some of the Springfield Aromory production guns. This includes Kimbers "Custom Shop" which is a total misrepresentation of the phrase as they actually do not have a true custom shop. Also almost any commander done by a knowledgeable custom smith will most likely run correctly.

theJanitor
01-04-10, 21:16
So, it seems a lot of people have had various problems with a variety of different 1911's regardless of make and model. The reoccurring theme seems to be: 5" model and stay away from Kimber. All others, Les Baer, DW, Colt, S&W, SA, Wilson, etc....we're pretty much rolling the dice?? I've been browsing the other fourms as I"ve been suggested, and I've heard less complaints about S&W than any other model. Colt S70 seems to also get good reviews. I don't have $2000 or more:( to really play with. I'm still working on a AR build. I think I'm going to go with the S&W or possibly Colt gold cup match S70. It seems like the "safest" bet in a platform of unknown reliability.


i still have a 1st gen kimber, from their custom shop. it was a good gun, but after 10+ years and alot of rounds, it needed a freshening up. after a trip to the gunsmith and alot of $$ later, it runs like a raped ape. it used to run mike a mildly molested one

stay away from the cold cups. i sold all of mine. they don't shoot any straighter, or run any more reliably than a GI colt. and they have fragile sights. and the serrations and sight cuts, make modification very difficult.

theJanitor
01-04-10, 21:23
I am just of the opinion that the full size 5" gun was the way it was initially designed. Unlike Glock, S&W M&P, Sig, H&K, etc the format does not adapt as well to the "cut down" formats. That being said, most of the higher end 1911 manuacturers can make a commander size gun run correctly. By higher end I mean semi custom like Wilson, Baer, Springfield Custom


on a tangent to this. i bought a matched pair of Baer commanders, in consecutive serial numbers. my little brother took one, and i took the other. both of our were not very reliable, even after 1000 rounds and replacement springs, etc.

a very knowledgeable friend of mine said that consecutive serial number Baer commanders are odd (at first i was happy about this, as maybe they were rare).
he mentioned that normally the consecutive serial numbers were used for commander/government sets. after some close inspection, it seems that this was the case for our guns. a government frame was cut down to the commander length, but internally, wasn't recut to commander size.

just my sample of one, for your reference

MarshallDodge
01-04-10, 23:39
Here is a chart that I am working on: Fighting 1911 Chart (http://home.comcast.net/~fun2shoot/1911/1911r2.html)
All of the information that is on the chart is based on what I have read on the builder's website or from people that own the guns and understand how they are built. It is a work in progress and if you would like to add anything or see a need for correction then please let me know.

The problem with a 1911 chart is that it most 1911 manufacturers are mostly based on reputation. They can use good parts but if they turn out a lemon every other gun then they are not really a good builder.

For a fighting 1911 I would recommend a Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special or Dan Wesson Valor. You can find either one for around $1500.

The Springfield Loaded models are a good entry level 1911. They have a decent reputation and if you have any issues, Springfield has excellent customer service.

novak1911freak
01-04-10, 23:53
My .02....

I have to preface this by saying that I love the 1911 as a platform in that it is a blank canvas that can be transformed into anything from a true BBQ (Beauty) gun, fully engraved to a tacti-gay mall ninja special (Any manufacturers response pistol comes to mind)....

I own a 1911 built by Nighthawk....... mine has gone bang every time I pull the trigger but I have developed unusual wear in places that shouldn't be wearing....Nighthawk has recently had some QC issues...... they have offered to fix it for free but as long as it does not affect the functioning of the gun, I really don't care, that being said, the gun should never have left NH that way, especially for 2800.00........ I would expect a Glock to leave the factory like that.... If the OP is seriously considering a 1911, I would do a lot of research and I would consider saving your pennies and purchasing a full custom from a reputable custom shop like any of the Louder Than Words crew.... I am scrimping and saving for a full house custom from Jason Burton at Heirloom Precision.....


Rob can attest to the next point.... 1911s are an incredibly expensive hobby.... semi customs are outrageously pricey... I have been looking at a Wilson and they start around 2700.00, Nighthawks do not fare any better with their cheapest model at around 2350.00.... not to mention the mags, extra grips, ammo for .45, custom holster leather..... and that's only if you want to do some plinking at the range and CCW.... if you want to compete with a 1911.... that is a whole other beast....

Like I said at the beginning, I love the 1911 and I will fork out the money for the hobby but I would caution the OP to do a lot of research before dropping any money on a 1911.... I do like the others suggestions of the 10-8 forum or asking Larry Vickers what he would carry....

milosz
01-05-10, 00:07
An entry-level Wilson or Nighthawk (CQB or GRP, respectively), should be about $2200 retail, maybe a hair less.

milosz
01-05-10, 00:08
and yet he pulled his name from the signature model. i have a Vickers built colt. and it's perfect - shoots straighter than a laser, and runs and runs. since i'm allergic to cleaning, this is a plus:D

I think that was a cost issue - Nighthawk pushed the MSRP of the 10-8 and Vickers models north of $3k, when they started out ~$2500.

WillBrink
01-05-10, 08:55
The most honest assessment I can offer is that it's more about the person than the gun. Someone who understands how to make a 1911 work is going to be fine... he's probably got good parts that are properly fitted in a quality gun. Someone who bought a 1911 simply because The Internet told him to is likely going to have all sorts of problems.

If I were going to buy a 1911 for myself, I honestly don't know where I'd start. Actually, I do. I'd call Larry Vickers and buy whatever he told me to. :cool:

Yup, what Vickers told me to, or Yam told me to, or other authorities on the 1911 who have forgotten more about 1911s then most will ever know. :cool:

Aubrey
01-05-10, 11:49
Here is a chart that I am working on: Fighting 1911 Chart (http://home.comcast.net/~fun2shoot/1911/1911r2.html)
All of the information that is on the chart is based on what I have read on the builder's website or from people that own the guns and understand how they are built. It is a work in progress and if you would like to add anything or see a need for correction then please let me know.

IIRC there was a thread on another site a year+ ago that indicated that Kimber now machines their frames from billet and no longer uses forgings. I have no personal knowledge of this, but I trust the person that posted it.

With the sunset of the ban on high-capacity magazines for many parts of the US, with the increase in cost of ammo, and with the availability of viable alternatives, the 1911 is becoming more and more the weapon of choice for nostalgics (myself included) and less and less the choice for those folks who train/shoot as much as those of a warrior mindset should.

A functional 1911 does not have to cost $2K, but on the other hand it is much easier to sink the price of 3x-4x the cost of a 9mm Glock or M&P in caliber of your choice into a 1911. Enter at your own risk.

William B.
01-05-10, 11:57
Here is a chart that I am working on: Fighting 1911 Chart (http://home.comcast.net/~fun2shoot/1911/1911r2.html)


Thanks for sharing. That looks like a very interesting project.

rob_s
01-05-10, 12:13
- You have to be very good to take advantage of its sole advantage, over other pistols.
-They require a commitment, not in training or maintenance time, but in up front cost, periodic maintenance, replacement costs, which all but require a smith, or very switched on end user.


I'd like to expound on these two, but I'm not sure if I'm disagreeing with you or not...

What I have found is that they 1911 is a gun that is better suited for those that have more time for maintenance of the machine and less time for maintenance of the man, while other designs are the inverse.

The 1911 is a very forgiving gun to shoot passably well. With a heavy steel frame, a very short trigger (even on the shittiest of guns) and an easy short and crips reset (not so much on the very shitty guns), if the sights are any sort of modern dovetail design and not the original GI bumps just about anyone can be getting good hits pretty quickly. What it does, in my own experience, is mask deficiencies in ability very, very well.

This does not mean that every 1911 shooter is a shitty shooter. But a whole lot of them are. It took me figuring this out for myself, about myself, to start to notice it in others. When I went away from the 1911 for admin/cost/other reasons I found that I couldn't hit a damn thing. My initial take was to blame the new gun, when in fact it was that the 1911 allowed me to be so lazy for so long.

theJanitor
01-05-10, 12:36
Bob, very well said. well said indeed.

John_Wayne777
01-05-10, 12:49
You really need to look at where some of the posters are coming from, and their experience. Are they collectors, casual shooters, casual CCW's, plinkers, casual competitors, cops, or hard core end users? Many will lead you down paths based on personal prejudice, based on nothing more then romance, nostalgia,politics, dead Nazi's, etc etc, and some are just ":fat old bald guy's"


Absolutely...and I don't know of anyone walking the planet who has more experience with the 1911 than Mr. Vickers. He has been an end user of the gun, a man who trained others to use it at a high level, one of the people who helped keep the 1911's of an elite unit up and running, and is also an award winning gunsmith.

I saw on another board where his recommendations on Tactical Arms about the 1911 came under some fire. "Who the hell is he, anyway?"

Umm...unquestionably one of the foremost experts on the 1911 walking the planet...that's who. "Aww...he doesn't know what he's talking about! My Colt Officer's model has run just fine! I've put almost four hundred rounds through it with no problems!"

:rolleyes: Whatever, dude.

I strongly urge ANYONE who is pondering paying serious money on 1911's to go to a Vickers 1911 operator's class first. That is a sound investment of $400 dollars. It will help you learn what to look for in a 1911 when pondering a purchase, how to test a gun to figure out if it has any issues, how to maintain the weapon, and ultimately whether or not you really want to be a 1911 guy.

Here's an AAR I did on the June 2009 session of that class:

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=32267

I like 1911's a lot. I drooled over the Colt .38 Super Templar brought to the Vickers class. I've got a couple of Sistemas I love to play with and work on in addition to my other 1911's. Getting to fondle Ken Hackathorn's personal ivory-gripped carry 1911 this year was one of the coolest things I've ever done.

...but I'm pretty much done with the 1911 as a tool for serious social purposes. It's just too expensive for my blood when I can spend the same money and buy 3 or 4 plastic guns that I can shoot every bit as well.

R Moran
01-05-10, 13:01
Real quick, then I have to get on the road...

I will concede, hell, I even used to champion it, the 1911, is a very easy gun to shoot. LAV calls it a crutch.
That, given comparable training resources, IE: ammo and time, you will go further faster with a 1911, no doubt.

But...at what cost? Again, it's expensive to obtain, shoot, and maintain(long run). It's heavy and has a low mag capacity, and, the revolver thread, not withstanding, more rounds is always a good thing.

You don't have to look all that far, to see some very good shooting being done with Glocks, & M&P's. Some very good shooters at work, shoot nothing but work guns, on work time, and they have 8# connectors. I've seen them shoot perfect scores out to 50 yards. its not very hard to become reasonably proficient with guns, that don't have the shoot-ability of the 1911.

Perhaps, I'm a bit unwashed, uncouth, uncivilized, or just lower class:D but things like "glass rod", "crisp" triggers, reset length, creep, etc. etc. were always sorta lost on me. Yea, light trigger, got it, but everything else is sorta nit picking.
On a side note, I always love when guys, usually on the aforementioned web sites, list the work they've had done on their new pet 1911, showing that they specified a trigger weight of X.X# and "crisp" as if to show the smith they they are somehow a more discerning customer then the average schmoe that comes to them:rolleyes: Like the smith cares, or is reading it, and going, "Oh yea, CRISP" probably does everyone of them, exactly the same.

I recently got to handle the G-lock of an operator from a very high speed unit, he described the trigger as a 3.5# connector with some work, if you can't shoot that gun very very well, dude give it up.
Another side note, you'd be surprised to see what a "real fighting gun" has, that all the "fat old bald guys" insist they don't.

In the end, I've seen far to many, new shooters, get issued a box stock Glock, Beretta, Sig, etc. and in a short time, with quality instruction, be able to shoot the minimum on a fairly comprehensive, hard qual, which is not your average PD or CCW qual, to believe you have to have a 1911 to shoot well.

Like you, I did alot of sole searching, and got honest with my self, taking a look at the calendar, didn't hurt either:D listend to a few guys, who actually carried the gun in combat, and saw more rounds go down range out of it then just about anyone on the planet, and don't recommend it, I moved on.

BTW: don't get me started on "combat proven"...

Bob

Aubrey
01-05-10, 17:05
...the 1911 is becoming more and more the weapon of choice for nostalgics (myself included) and less and less the choice for those folks who train/shoot as much as those of a warrior mindset should...


...you'd be surprised to see what a "real fighting gun" has, that all the "fat old bald guys" insist they don't....
Bob

Bob,
I'd appreciate it if you'd refer to us as "nostalgics". I did after all make a new-year's resolution to lose a few pounds. :D The "old" part and the "bald" part are not likely to show much improvement, however.

MarshallDodge
01-05-10, 17:58
LAV likes Colts, he believes Colt has already ****ed up everything you can on the gun, and worked it all out, much like the AR, they've been build them for almost 100 years, they probably know how to do it.

I would never buy a new Colt 1911. Their quality control is mediocre and the fit and finish is pretty poor for the dollar spent but I guess that is why gunsmiths love them......gives them something to work on. ;)

William B.
01-05-10, 19:18
This thread is beginning to hurt. Like when you're in church feeling guilty because you know God intended this particular sermon for YOU. Just for the record, though, I've never been one of these arrogant guys who bashes the polymer guns.... all this being said, any advice on how much to ask for a Sig GSR in excellent condition with 500rds through it?

rocket
01-05-10, 19:47
At the risk of not starting another 1911 thread, is there a comparison thread for quality 1911's for the money. I've searched and read many threads bashing kimber and taurus. Praises for Springfield. I would like a more extensive and objective comparison between manufacturers if there is one. Any links please? Thanks.


It's great how this thread progressed into something much more involved than what I had originally intended. :D But, it's been a terrific read! Thanks for all who have contributed...unfortunately, I'm starting to feel a little guilty for wanting a 1911 now.:confused: Nah! I'm all over one! Final decision, I'm going with DW! Now, which model?:eek:

JHC
01-05-10, 19:53
I don't see the mystery of finding a good running 1911 due my amazingly good luck with them starting in 1981. All of these ran fine out of the box.
2 Colt Combat Commanders
1 Colt LW Commander
3 Colt Government models
1 Colt Gold Cup
1 SA Loaded
1 GI Ithaca
1 SA TRP
I only own the last two right now. In hindsight, I'd rather have bought one or two Wilson/SA Custom grade instead of all these service grade but they served me well with a lot of rounds through them.
I've only had the TRP a little more than a year and it has impressed me. It ran 1200 flawless rounds out of the box with some lube added until it's first cleaning. I'm at around 2500 now and it's yet to fail to feed, fire or eject.

Way more often than not I'm carrying a G19 and I shoot a lot more Glock 9mm than anything else for a variety of reasons but I don't sweat 1911s either.

MarshallDodge
01-05-10, 19:58
Final decision, I'm going with DW! Now, which model?:eek:

They are in the middle of some model changes but something along the lines of the Classic Bobtail or the Valor would be my choice.

Aubrey
01-05-10, 20:17
I would never buy a new Colt 1911. Their quality control is mediocre and the fit and finish is pretty poor for the dollar spent but I guess that is why gunsmiths love them......gives them something to work on. ;)

FIT AND FINISH are not what make the Colts superior to most. They did not reverse engineer the design and know what the proper dimensions and tolerances are for a functional pistol. The vast majority of their parts are made from proper materials and not some value-engineered substitute. Sure their designs are antiquated in some respects, but if reliability is a priority, Colt is one of the few viable production guns.

The biggest problems with 1911s today is that there are too many manufacturers assembling pistols with too little labor from too many different sub-tier suppliers. It is a design of a bygone era of craftsmen and pride in production that is being built in an era of instant gratification by corporations focused on profits and not performance of their products.

rocket
01-05-10, 20:32
They are in the middle of some model changes but something along the lines of the Classic Bobtail or the Valor would be my choice.

I'd love to get my paws on the classic bobtail, but they're impossible to find. The only one I've seen so far is in 10mm. Also, this is going to be a 30 day layaway which limits my options. Anyone know where someone has one in stock in .45?I'm not familiar with 10mm on any platform.

MarshallDodge
01-05-10, 21:00
FIT AND FINISH are not what make the Colts superior to most. They did not reverse engineer the design and know what the proper dimensions and tolerances are for a functional pistol. The vast majority of their parts are made from proper materials and not some value-engineered substitute. Sure their designs are antiquated in some respects, but if reliability is a priority, Colt is one of the few viable production guns.

The biggest problems with 1911s today is that there are too many manufacturers assembling pistols with too little labor from too many different sub-tier suppliers. It is a design of a bygone era of craftsmen and pride in production that is being built in an era of instant gratification by corporations focused on profits and not performance of their products.
Where are you getting your information about them putting better parts in their guns? Everything I have handled of their product looked mediocre so why should I pay the extra $$ for a mediocre pistol with off center spring tunnels and crooked slide flats. Who knows what else may be wrong.

I agree with you on the sub-tier stuff coming out today. It is really a sad direction some of the companies have headed. The top ones are building the parts in house for this very reason.

MarshallDodge
01-05-10, 21:05
I'd love to get my paws on the classic bobtail, but they're impossible to find. The only one I've seen so far is in 10mm. Also, this is going to be a 30 day layaway which limits my options. Anyone know where someone has one in stock in .45?I'm not familiar with 10mm on any platform.

Check with Severns Custom 775-790-0681

Thomas M-4
01-05-10, 21:18
FIT AND FINISH are not what make the Colts superior to most. They did not reverse engineer the design and know what the proper dimensions and tolerances are for a functional pistol. The vast majority of their parts are made from proper materials and not some value-engineered substitute. Sure their designs are antiquated in some respects, but if reliability is a priority, Colt is one of the few viable production guns.

The biggest problems with 1911s today is that there are too many manufacturers assembling pistols with too little labor from too many different sub-tier suppliers. It is a design of a bygone era of craftsmen and pride in production that is being built in an era of instant gratification by corporations focused on profits and not performance of their products.


This is what most people don't understand. When the 1911 was designed when you had to crank your car with a handle that had a nasty habit of breaking your wrist or arm :eek: and on the steering column it had a lever to advance the timing in the engine for crying out loud:p You look a pics of the factories at the time they employed hundreds of skilled people to fit and polish those parts by hand :eek:
Today you are going to pay a single person to do that are you are going to have to learn to do it your self.

Aubrey
01-05-10, 21:27
Where are you getting your information about them putting better parts in their guns?

Check with the reputable 1911 'smiths and I believe you will find that most will advise that they will not recommend replacing many of the internals of a real-deal Colt's when doing upgrades. I own no Colt's 1911s and am serving no Kool-Aid here.

rocket
01-05-10, 21:27
Check with Severns Custom 775-790-0681

Thanks, I'll give them a call.

Dave Berryhill
01-06-10, 09:10
...
- All 1911's are not created equal
- 1911's all but require hand fitting
- You have to be very good to take advantage of its sole advantage, over other pistols.
-They require a commitment, not in training or maintenance time, but in up front cost, periodic maintenance, replacement costs, which all but require a smith, or very switched on end user.
- Setting all that aside, its still a heavy gun with low capacity.

Well said and I couldn't agree more. A 1911 is definitely not THE pistol for everyone and there are many good alternatives. They do require a higher level of technical knowledge and skill to be an advantage over some other modern pistols.



You really need to look at where some of the posters are coming from... some are just ":fat old bald guy's"


Well, I'm getting old and I'm working on the "fat" and the "bald" parts but I'm not completely there yet. :D

Mark Phelps
01-06-10, 09:21
I go with the opinion that every problem is magnified a thousand-fold when announced on the internet. When something actually breaks in my Springfield Loaded, I'll put more merit into the argument.

WillBrink
01-06-10, 09:54
You really need to look at where some of the posters are coming from, and their experience. Are they collectors, casual shooters, casual CCW's, plinkers, casual competitors, cops, or hard core end users? Many will lead you down paths based on personal prejudice, based on nothing more then romance, nostalgia,politics, dead Nazi's, etc etc, and some are just ":fat old bald guy's"

Bob

I would only add to your excellent post, that most buyers of 1911s don't really look at exactly what the gun is intended for, which should actually dictate the decision and which affect the cost. You have people drop 3k on a gun they will use for nothing but occasional plinking, while another will drop $800 on a duty gun.


If the use is simply for plinking, a few IDPA matches, occasional courses and such, there's a lot of less expensive to mid prices 1911a people can chose, and if it has troubles, no one will die because of it. You have no one to blame but yourself when it goes bad, but it wont get you killed.

If the intended gun is a true hard use duty, CCW, high rnd count courses, combat gun you may risk your life on ( or a "thuging gun" as one well known experienced combat shooter I know refers to it...) then the choices become limited quickly.

The latter gun can always act in the former category, but NEVER the reverse.

BTW, LAV might say "get a Glock" but I bet Yam would say "get an MnP!" :D

PLCedeno
01-06-10, 11:34
Hmm, comparing 1911s.

I'd compare them to Ford Mustangs.

The Mustang has been around for a long time and many consider them classics.

Many of the "classic" Mustangs can't actually meet modern standards of reliability and performance, but fans like to pretend they did.

A lot of people think they're wicked cool. The majority of people who own them don't actually own one of the wicked cool ones, but like to pretend they do.

Most people who own them can't actually do anything with them that they couldn't do with a Corolla, but they like to pretend they could.

A lot more people own 6cyl Mustangs than own GT500s but every Mustang owner acts like he's got a GT500.

If you beat a Mustang owner, he'll blame the road or say you're just a more skilled driver. If a Mustang owner beats you, he'll tell you how much better his car is than yours.

Comparisons are fun!

Very interesting analogy-here's my story.

In 2008 i purchased a new Mustang Gt. It was fast but not fast enouth. So i had the engine, computer and exhaust modified for an added 25 horsepower. Total cost about $2500.00. I loved that car despite the fact that it suffered a complete shut down on the highway the first day i asked my 12 year old son to come out with me to show off (2000 miles on the odo). I drove it all over the place really fast and got the only three speeding tkts of my life all within a four month period of time. I didnt care. Then the winter came. The car could not safely be driven on snow or ice since the back-end is weightless. Snow tires had little effect. In effect the car became useless in the winter. I sold it and got a Jeep. It may be less flashy but the Jeep works no matter what.

I purchased a Colt 1911 70 Series also in 2008. It was beautiful and reliable. The trouble was that the hammer bite got so bad i was developing a permanent scar. It occurred to me to have it customized to deal with this issue. Well if they were going to take care of the hammer and grip safety then why not a trigger job. Then why not Tritium sights. Then why not front strap checkering. This went on and on until when i got the gun back five months later i was short almost $2000.00. I went to the range in my modified Mustang GT to enjoy my baby (1911). I got several failures to feed, extract and the slide to remain open on the last round. You can only imagine the brain freeze i got at that moment. I paid someone else to fix the problem then sold the 1911 and got another Glock and an M&P 40. The Glocks and M&P's may be less flashy but they work no matter what.

I still love Mustang GT's and 1911's but would not buy either for there intended purposes.

MarshallDodge
01-07-10, 10:45
I am not sure why these threads always have to turn into the 1911 vs. the [insert polymer gun of choice] thread. ;)

There is no doubt that a 1911 system is easier to shoot. Yes, there are folks like those on M4carbine who shoot thousands of rounds a year and have become very efficient with their polymer guns but the majority of the gun population, that only shoot a dozen boxes of ammo a year, will almost always do better with a 1911 pistol. With a little care, most any 1911 on the market will last them a lifetime.

Speaking of care. If you decide to go with the 1911 platform, choose a model with a good reputation, feed it good ammo, use good quality magazines, and keep it lubricated. I like to make my own ammo, use Chip McCormick mags, and Super Lube grease and Weapon Shield CLP are the lubricants that I use.

I know I am preaching to the choir here but hopefully there are those that can glean some information from this post.

rob_s
01-07-10, 11:11
I will concede, hell, I even used to champion it, the 1911, is a very easy gun to shoot. LAV calls it a crutch.
That, given comparable training resources, IE: ammo and time, you will go further faster with a 1911, no doubt.

But...at what cost? Again, it's expensive to obtain, shoot, and maintain(long run).


Cost is relative. The guy that makes $30/year but has plenty of time on his hands to get to the range will have a different definition of cost than the guy that makes $200k/year and works 80 hours/week to make it. The second guy doesn't see $2k as a major expense in a pistol, and needs that crutch to be able to get better hits. The fact that he gets to the range less often means that the other costs like ammo and maintenance are also greatly lessened.

ToddG
01-07-10, 11:11
There is no doubt that a 1911 system is easier to shoot. Yes, there are folks like those on M4carbine who shoot thousands of rounds a year and have become very efficient with their polymer guns but the majority of the gun population, that only shoot a dozen boxes of ammo a year, will almost always do better with a 1911 pistol. With a little care, most any 1911 on the market will last them a lifetime.

I think that's an overstated argument.

If hypothetically we had someone who went out and bought a top-grade reliable tuned 1911 but who still was going to "only shoot a dozen boxes of ammo a year," sure his gun will probably last years without any need for knowledgeable maintenance. And in a calm setting against static targets, he might get smaller groups or faster splits.

But the kind of person who only shoots a few hundred rounds per year also rarely invests in a top-grade 1911. He's more likely to get a gun with inherent design, part, or manufacturing deficiencies. He's probably not going to have the light, crisp trigger that makes the 1911 "easier to shoot." He'll think that just because his gun fired 50 rounds of hardball, it will feed 200gr +p JHPs fine. And when something starts to go wrong, he's going to stuck with a gun that he probably can't fix with a simple parts swap.

More importantly, though, is the fallacy of depending on the guy who shoots 500 rounds per year as a gauge of skill. Sure, a lighter shorter trigger pull is going to be easier for him to use when practicing at the range. But even under the stress of mild competition we see that go out the door. Yanking a trigger is yanking a trigger. Anticipating recoil is anticipating recoil. Those things aren't magically fixed just because you have John Moses's Own Gun in your hand.

I've also seen far more novice 1911 shooters have manual of arms issues

gripping the gun in a way that knocks the safety lever on during firing
failing to disengage the safety when drawing or picking the gun up
holstering with the safety off
and of course the gold standard of 1911 design love: failure to fire because the grip safety is not properly disengaged


This is precisely why you can't simply take someone's bullseye shooting score and assess whether a particular gun is "better." Or measure splits to determine which is better, etc. There is a complicated system involving the gun and the shooter. Having an awesome trigger is all well and good, but it doesn't overcome other shortcomings especially when you add things like stress and movement to the scenario.

silentsod
01-07-10, 12:17
I am not sure why these threads always have to turn into the 1911 vs. the [insert polymer gun of choice] thread. ;)

There is no doubt that a 1911 system is easier to shoot. Yes, there are folks like those on M4carbine who shoot thousands of rounds a year and have become very efficient with their polymer guns but the majority of the gun population, that only shoot a dozen boxes of ammo a year, will almost always do better with a 1911 pistol. With a little care, most any 1911 on the market will last them a lifetime.

Speaking of care. If you decide to go with the 1911 platform, choose a model with a good reputation, feed it good ammo, use good quality magazines, and keep it lubricated. I like to make my own ammo, use Chip McCormick mags, and Super Lube grease and Weapon Shield CLP are the lubricants that I use.

I know I am preaching to the choir here but hopefully there are those that can glean some information from this post.

I agree a 1911 is easier to shoot in that it's excellent trigger and high inertia can mask problems with technique. A gun with that weighs 3lb loaded and a 3.5-5lb trigger with less than an 1/8" travel is lenient on the shooter.

Switching to a polymer wundergun which weighs 3/4lb less and a trigger pull upwards 7lb with a lot more travel begins to show you the nuances and flaws in technique. I recently diagnosed what I had originally thought was a trigger control problem and determined it is a grip pressure problem (because dry fire experimentation is cool!). I guarantee you I would not have learned it was my grip shooting a 1911 as years of shooting it never saw this crop up.

Another issue that's been mentioned is the grip safety not always disengaging on draws, grabs from the table, etc where you move really fast. This issue occurred enough (probably 1 in 200 draws) that I'm about ready to rubber band the grip safety in place, if not pull the safety and remove material so it takes next to nothing to disengage.

There are shooters who use 1911s who could pick up just about anything and make me look like a defective monkey holding a pistol and picking it's nose. It is my opinion, though, that the 1911 for low round count shooters will do a lot to mask problems. Whether or not that's a good thing is debatable; my opinion as a medium round count shooter (approx. 14k rounds per year, likely to increase as a Dillon is probably to be in my near future with an RCBS in the present with a finicky powder feed resulting in slowed production) is that it's a bad thing.

ETA: I think the chart is cool, but things like the appropriate gap between frame ramp and barrel ramp, link down timing, properly tensioned extractor, ejector that doesn't stick into the mag well, etc seem to me to be pretty impossible to put into a chart as they're all a case by case basis.

MarshallDodge
01-07-10, 12:28
I think that's an overstated argument.

It wasn't an argument, it was purely based on what I have seen when hanging out with other shooters. :)

These are people that come to the range a couple times a year, shoot some holes in a silhouette at 21 feet, talk about how great their gun is because all of their shots hit the paper, and go home. Then there are those that buy a Glock, then a Sig, then a 1911, and settle on the 1911 because their groups shrink. To them, the 1911 is more accurate because they shoot it better, not because they suck at pulling a trigger.

I agree that none of them have learned to shoot correctly but this is the majority of gun owners out there. Unfortunately when I go shooting with someone, and they see how well I shoot, they ask what kind of gun I am shooting instead of asking how many years and thousands of rounds of practice that it took for me to shoot accurately.

You and I both know that the key to shooting a handgun is proper training and practicing often. I don't steer people in one direction or another when they are purchasing a handgun. I show them a variety of quality guns, talk about the pros and cons, and let them make the decision. After that, I tell them to purchase lots of ammo and some training because that is the key to using any platform.

ToddG
01-07-10, 12:43
I agree that for someone who is only going to "practice" (and I use that term loosely) once or twice a year and then measure his success by the size of the groups he gets while standing still shooting a non-threatening static paper target... the 1911 is going to turn in better groups for some people.

MarshallDodge
01-07-10, 12:48
ETA: I think the chart is cool, but things like the appropriate gap between frame ramp and barrel ramp, link down timing, properly tensioned extractor, ejector that doesn't stick into the mag well, etc seem to me to be pretty impossible to put into a chart as they're all a case by case basis.

Thanks. 1911's, just like AR's, are really based on the reputation of the builder and the parts quality that they use. For example, Rock Island 1911's seem to be pretty good out of the box but their longevity has always been questionable. Kimber can turn out good guns one day and jam-o-matics the next.

1911's are not black magic. Every builder knows what it takes to build a good one, it is when they start to cut corners that the problems show up.

R Moran
01-07-10, 18:52
Bob,
I'd appreciate it if you'd refer to us as "nostalgics". I did after all make a new-year's resolution to lose a few pounds. :D The "old" part and the "bald" part are not likely to show much improvement, however.

Aubrey, as someone who'd has always had a few extra pounds, has had knee surgery, and feeling the miles, has not lost any hair, but, interestingly, now has it where its never been before....I know about the "OLD" part, however, its a reference to a post made on our favorite forum.:D

Bob

tinman44
01-07-10, 19:56
i know i'll likely get pounded for this but i kinda look at this issue in a similar fashion i did when i played paintball weekly. I had cheap reliable gear and the top dollar equipment that had wierd problems as well. It boiled down to the skill mostly. The better or rather more expensive gun (i believe you get what you pay for) for me had less problems than the cheaper. I do understand this is not apples/apples but rather apples/oranges but i personally feel training/practice is THE deciding factor and i'm betting all agree. I just let everyone shoot what they want and i shoot what i want. if you're trying to decide.....buy both or rent both, go to a class and borrow one? there are so many possibilities besides "hey forum dudes whats the best gun and please state facts" that said m4carbine.net is my source for experience.

R Moran
01-07-10, 20:17
These threads always go this way, because, generally someone makes a comment, almost always, regarding the near mythical abilities of a 1911, or some such stuff, and then it off to the races.....

Regarding Colts, my understanding, almost all the issues were cosmetic, and not functional. IE: The off center recoil spring tunnel, was really a matter of being over polished on one side, so it appeared off center.

Guys like Hackathorn, Yam, and Vickers, in general do not make recommendations to line their pockets. In fact, LAV isn't even building guns anymore, and Hilton, has also put it on the back burner, so to insinuate, that Vickers recommends Colts, so he can make money off of you, is wrong.
In fact most gunsmiths I know, and have talked to, were pretty honest guys, who would talk me out of work, and save me money.

Build quality, just like with AR's, there is nothing magic about it, but it cost money to have them built properly, and that's where the magic comes into play. You are simply not going to get a quality duty/defensive ready 1911 for Glock prices.

For those of you, who have not had any issues with your mid quality 1911's, good for you, hope it works out. Again, round count, to steal a phrase from Rob, is relevant. Guys like Yam and Vickers, make recommendations based on round counts much higher then posted here. 2500 rounds would be hit in weeks, not months or years. When guns see issues at 10,000 rounds, it may be fine for the "average" user, but when that 10,000 comes around very soon, and often, it become a maintenance nightmare. Is that me or you, maybe not, buts its something to take into consideration.
In fact, I could almost argue, that it would take training at that level, and those round counts, to truly see the benefit of a tuned 1911.

I've had little issues with my 1911's, but they were all Colts, save 1 early Kimber, and all saw the attention of very competent, if not well known smiths. I would be a fool, to, discount Vickers opinion, because my handful of 1911's, and "personal" experience, doesn't match his.
In the anecdotal category, I just saw an Ed Brown SF model, have a few, somewhat uniquely 1911, malfunctions.

Shoot-ability,
I've said it before, when most people say "I shoot best with a 1911" they really mean I shoot less bad with a 1911.
I find it interesting, that most everyone, abhors "buying skill", yet, isn't that essentially, what some are now advocating, by going with a 1911?
If you can not take a Glock, with a 3.5# connector, or an M&P with a pro-sear, or either one bone stock, for that matter, and shoot it reasonably well, if not spectacularly, you do not need a 1911, you need training. And the extra money spent on a high grade 1911, could be better spent on a few days with LAV.
And, really, if you are going to carry a gun, make the time to get some decent training, regardless of your weapon choice, its the right thing to do.

I like 1911's, I still have a few, one even belonged to the original armorer for Vickers old unit. He was the guy who started me on 1911's, that was 20 + years ago, things are different now.
If you choose one, choose wisely, and knowledgeably, know what you are getting into and why.
Don't buy into all the myth, Jedi knight, light-saber, dead Nazi, bull shit.

In the end, it only holds 7 rounds.

Bob

R Moran
01-07-10, 20:27
Rocket,
Good luck with your DW, from everything I heard, they are good guns. Enjoy it. I would however, recommend, looking to get into one of Vickers 1911 operator courses. Very enlightening, and he shows just what the 1911 can do, and why it was the choice of some very elite shooters, for a very long time.

If your still looking, and just going to start dabbling in the 1911 world, you may want to look at a SA Loaded or Colt 1991a1, depending on your style preference, shoot it for awhile, see how you like it, check into LAV's classes, even his basic pistol course, and let nature take it course.

Bob

Dunderway
01-07-10, 21:01
Very interesting analogy-here's my story.


I purchased a Colt 1911 70 Series also in 2008. It was beautiful and reliable. The trouble was that the hammer bite got so bad i was developing a permanent scar. It occurred to me to have it customized to deal with this issue. Well if they were going to take care of the hammer and grip safety then why not a trigger job. Then why not Tritium sights. Then why not front strap checkering. This went on and on until when i got the gun back five months later i was short almost $2000.00. I went to the range in my modified Mustang GT to enjoy my baby (1911). I got several failures to feed, extract and the slide to remain open on the last round. You can only imagine the brain freeze i got at that moment. I paid someone else to fix the problem then sold the 1911 and got another Glock and an M&P 40. The Glocks and M&P's may be less flashy but they work no matter what.

I still love Mustang GT's and 1911's but would not buy either for there intended purposes.

You gave a good example of one of the problems with 1911s: Very few people want a 1911, they want a tactical/race gun which is based on the 1911 design.

If I was going to buy a new 1911, I would get a new Colt S70, bob the hammer, add a wilson thumb safety and be done with the damn thing. I would more than likely have a reliable gun for under $1,000.

People expect handgun perfection from a 1911 and for that you do have to pay $3,000 or more. For a good reliable gun that is in a configuration that exploits it's originally intended use, you do not.

I could spend thousands on reliabilty, ergonomic, and accuracy enhancements to a Glock if I wanted to, but I certainly would not. A 1911 doesn't have to be that much different.

Hunter Rose
01-07-10, 21:03
In the end, it only holds 7 rounds.

Bob

As one who has loved the 1911 for years, this is the fact that turned me away from the 1911 as a CCW. I layed my HK USP on top of a 1911 and realized they're the same damn size. Then I took an EAG class with my USP and noted how much more often the guy next to me with a 1911 was having to re-load. Then there's the larger start up costs, more finicky nature, and more intensive maintenance schedule. So for me I saw the HK light (or drank too much Kool-Aid).

I also will agree with your analysis of the training aspect of it. When I shoot the USP often, I am very proficient with it. When I am deployed for months and do not get to shoot/train, I have to re-learn the USP when I get back, whereas the 1911 shoots easier initially, mainly because of the trigger that can help compensate for my poor technique as I re-aquant myself with pistol shooting.

As for the original question, it has been answered by those more eloquent than me. If you want a decent example, pay the entrance few and have a Series 70 Colt worked over by John Harrison, Steve Morrison , etc.

Dunderway
01-07-10, 21:06
Regarding Colts, my understanding, almost all the issues were cosmetic, and not functional. IE: The off center recoil spring tunnel, was really a matter of being over polished on one side, so it appeared off center.



I have observed the same for the past few years. Every issue that I have read/seen with a new 5" Colt has been cosmetic and not functional. Their pistols seem to fall in line with their ARs recently. They're not for looking at, they're for shooting.

R Moran
01-07-10, 22:17
You gave a good example of one of the problems with 1911s: Very few people want a 1911, they want a tactical/race gun which is based on the 1911 design.

If I was going to buy a new 1911, I would get a new Colt S70, bob the hammer, add a wilson thumb safety and be done with the damn thing. I would more than likely have a reliable gun for under $1,000.

People expect handgun perfection from a 1911 and for that you do have to pay $3,000 or more. For a good reliable gun that is in a configuration that exploits it's originally intended use, you do not.

I could spend thousands on reliability, ergonomic, and accuracy enhancements to a Glock if I wanted to, but I certainly would not. A 1911 doesn't have to be that much different.

This is the part of the conversation that always got me in trouble over at the other forum.

1911's, only survived for as long as they have, because of the enhancements.

I used to have a 1911 like you described, a old rollmark '91, mmc fixed rear sight(talk about old school), kings thumb safety, bobbed hammer, beveled magwell, trigger job...good enough gun, I guess, i shot it at a Thunder Ranch course, and that was the end of it, it became a night stand gun, seeing little use, in lieu of my more modern 1911's.
I do believe, though, that internally, Colts are very good guns, with much of the fitting and quality, that a smith will do to a lower quality gun.

But, w/o a beavertail, tritium front sight and light rail, it was out of the picture, things that are basically built into a G-lock of M&P.

When I was still a "1911 guy", it had to be a modern 1911, otherwise, a Glock.

Bob

rob_s
01-08-10, 06:26
Interesting to see how these threads always wind up in the same place. You get a guy asking questions about the 1911 and it winds up in the same place every time; the fans extolling the virtues and the un-fans telling them why they are idiots. What starts out as a question about how one goes about selecting a quality 1911 turns into people posting "you shouldn't even bother".

I'm somewhere in between. I like the 1911, but can't afford to outfit myself and the lil' woman with the 1911s I'd want us to have, so it's Glocks for us based almost entirely on the cost issue and nothing else. I understand why people like the 1911, and don't begrudge anyone that wants to use one or is happy with it.

On the original topic, it looks like his question was answered early on as someone posted a link to a 1911 comparison chart that at least lists the specs/dimensions of various guns. I'm not sure it does what the AR Chart does since it doesn't go into the desirable features and what makes them so. You always hear people say "any competent 'smith can make a 1911 run", but you rarely hear what they do to get it that way.

I do think it would be interesting to have someone post pictures of the details. Before and after shots maybe. What did you start with, and what did you end up with. Not the big overall shots, not the detail shots of the fancy checkering or bordering or blended sights, but the innards of the thing and maybe the basics of beavertail, dovetail sights, and extended thumb safety, which I think most people would agree are the bare necessities to bring a 1911 up.

R Moran
01-08-10, 08:00
I blame Todd;)

This is a discussion forum, and we discuss things. Like I said earlier, generally someone says something, we disagree with, or is flat out wrong, and this being the Internet, well, we just can't have that, can we??

The difficulty with answering the OP's question, Lie's in...

He never really indicated the guns intended use

The 1911 market is all over the map, and constantly changing

The actual experience level of those making the recommendations, and their individual criteria, for what makes a good gun.

A chart, like Rob's would be difficult, as Rob's, is at least in part, based on the TDP, that really doesn't apply to a 100 year old gun. Hell, some point out it doesn't apply to a 40 year old gun like the M16fow. Again, figure in the multiple of different uses for the gun, from bullseye to secondary for an elite operator making entry to save a hostage.

The gun requires hand fitting of parts. I'm not a smith or engineer, I don't know why, only that it just seems to be so. Maybe our resident smart guy(Aubrey) could answer.
That proper fitting is somewhat subjective, and dependent on the builder. I have a cardboard target in the corner, with hand drawing's from LAV on it, illustrating how certain parts are supposed to and not supposed to fit together. LAV, in his class, goes into more detailed descriptions, of the parts fit, and how they are all inter related, even parts, you think would have nothing to do with each other.
I'm sure somewhere, someone, will look at the chart and say..."WTF!"

I don't think anyone is an idiot for wanting a 1911. They're cool guns, that are great to shoot, and fill many different roles.
What I think is wrong, are shooters, of undetermined ability and knowledge, making decisions based on hype, myth and BS.

Bob

Stretz Tactical Inc
01-08-10, 08:32
Stay away from Kimber. I had a warrior and it went back to the factory 6 times in the first year. They never fixed all the problems and I ended up selling it. I know other people who have had problems with different models. A lot of the top 1911 guys will tell you to stay away from them as well.

rob_s
01-08-10, 08:38
I agree that it may be difficult lacking a TDP, but I've long since stopped making reference to that document myself. I believe maybe 1 in 10 that claim to have seen it have actually seen it, and I've certainly never seen it. If you go back to the early predecessor thread(s) to the current Chart thread you'll find me asking a lot of questions about what is desirable and why. Not "which stock, grip and rail system" but "which barrel steel, which assembly method, etc." which go more to the DNA of the gun.

The 6.8 guys made their own chart without any TDP to go by. They agreed on the features that differentiated one product from another and listed the specs instead of listing checkmarks (I greatly prefer the "spec" version of the M4 Chart to the "x" version).

If we could get some feedback from people in the know about things like one-piece barrel, cast vs. forged frames, slide and frame materials, small parts MIM or machined, etc. that sort of information could be compiled into a document with it's own "explanation of features" explaining why one way would be preferred over another. For example, an explanation of why a two-piece barrel may be problematic, or why MIM has a bad rep, or why forged frames are preferred over cast, etc.

The first step would be to develop the list of features:
Frame material
Frame construction (forged/cast)
Slide material
Slide construction (forged/cast (does anyone even make cast slides?))
Small parts (MIM/bar stock)
Barrel (two/one piece)
etc.

Then assembly issues. Forgetting aesthetics and cosmetics and personal preferences like bevels and trim work, focus on the internals and proper angles of this or dangles of that (I don't have the expertise here) that some 'smiths or other afficianados could address. Before and after pictures from reputable 'smiths of what they do to change the "lockup" would be helpful here. What is the point of "welding up the frame"?

Yes, application of the final product is important. Just like the M4 Chart is for "critical use firearms" I think the focus of most reading this forum would be of the same type for the 1911 as well. Concessions could be made to competition shooters/guns I suppose but I'd rather avoid that.

I have no problem volunteering for the writing and the compiling. I just need the education and resources to ask questions of to do it. I didn't know what I was getting into when I started the M4 Chart either, and that all started as a project for me myself and I to get a handle on things for my own purchases.

theJanitor
01-08-10, 10:12
Stay away from Kimber. I had a warrior and it went back to the factory 6 times in the first year. They never fixed all the problems and I ended up selling it. I know other people who have had problems with different models. A lot of the top 1911 guys will tell you to stay away from them as well.

except if you want a full house gun, i suppose:

Larry Vickers Kimber (for sale on another board for a truly serious amount of $$)
http://www.pt-partners.com/general/images/Vickers-02.JPG

R Moran
01-08-10, 11:17
Earlier Series 1 Kimbers, are generally held in a higher regard, then later guns, 1 or 2, and definately not an external extractor.

Rob, I hear what your saying, I think,... take the difficulty you had with "The chart" and multiply it 10 fold.
The AR is now where the 1911 was 20 or 30 years ago, and will eventually end up in the same place.

With the wide degree of varying end users, manufacurers of parts and weapons, gunsmiths, catering to different diciplines, etc. etc. I think it would be an enormous undertaking, all for a gun that only holds 7 rounds. NOt sure it would really be worth the effort.

Alot of what your asking is answered in LAV's operator class, and I'm sure much more in the gunsmithing class.

Would be interesting to see though.

Bob

rob_s
01-08-10, 11:32
Rob, I hear what your saying, I think,... take the difficulty you had with "The chart" and multiply it 10 fold.
The AR is now where the 1911 was 20 or 30 years ago, and will eventually end up in the same place.

With the wide degree of varying end users, manufacurers of parts and weapons, gunsmiths, catering to different diciplines, etc. etc. I think it would be an enormous undertaking, all for a gun that only holds 7 rounds. NOt sure it would really be worth the effort.

Alot of what your asking is answered in LAV's operator class, and I'm sure much more in the gunsmithing class.

Would be interesting to see though.

Bob
I'm going to muck around with it for a bit. I've started down the path with other topics for Charts and while not all of them have panned out into things I'd share publicly I've learned a lot about those topics.

I'm going to hunt around some custom 'smiths' pages and look at terminology they use that I don't understand and see if I can get it explained. I know there are things that better 'smiths do in terms of how the barrel mates up with the slide, and the frame, etc. and if I can understand these changes and get pictures then I can include it in a chart and explanation of features.

Business_Casual
01-08-10, 11:43
What about the magazine voodoo? Pure black magic at times.

This spring with that follower all in the body from XYZ company. I had great luck with regular Colt magazines, never loaded more than 7 at a time even in CMC Power Mags. Or is that a "whole 'nother can of worms" as they say?

M_P

Amp Mangum
01-08-10, 12:35
Power Mags work fine loaded to 8rds.

MarshallDodge
01-08-10, 12:47
Build quality, just like with AR's, there is nothing magic about it, but it cost money to have them built properly, and that's where the magic comes into play. You are simply not going to get a quality duty/defensive ready 1911 for Glock prices.
I completely agree with this statement. You see the same mentality when it comes to choosing a carbine. People want an AR for the same price as an AK variant. It's just not going to happen. You are not going to find a good 1911 for under $500.

Comparing a 1911 to a Glock is just not a good comparison. There is a lot of machining and QC that is involved in making a good 1911. Tolerances are tighter, fit and finish is typically better, and accuracy is higher.




If we could get some feedback from people in the know about things like one-piece barrel, cast vs. forged frames, slide and frame materials, small parts MIM or machined, etc. that sort of information could be compiled into a document with it's own "explanation of features" explaining why one way would be preferred over another. For example, an explanation of why a two-piece barrel may be problematic, or why MIM has a bad rep, or why forged frames are preferred over cast, etc.

The first step would be to develop the list of features:
Frame material
Frame construction (forged/cast)
Slide material
Slide construction (forged/cast (does anyone even make cast slides?))
Small parts (MIM/bar stock)
Barrel (two/one piece)
etc.


I started to put a lot of that information in the chart. The tough part is that you have to go by the word of the builder or what you read on the internet.

According to what I have read on the internet:
-Springfield claims that they see very little issues with their MIM parts and based on what I have seen I would have to agree.
-Many people have seen issues with Taurus and Kimber MIM parts.
-Bob Serva, who owned Dan Wesson before he sold it to CZ, and now owns Fusion, has said that MIM has it's place in a 1911 and has seen good success using MIM parts.
-There are MIM parts in Glock and M&P pistols as well as quite a few other pistols on the market.

-All of the 1911 beavertail safeties on the market are investment cast or MIM.

-Caspian frames, which a lot of gunsmiths use to build their guns on and are considered a high quality frame, are investment cast.

I recall reading a thread on the 10-8 forums about experiences with MIM vs. Forged. There seemed to be just as many folks posting about broken MIM parts as there were forged with the two biggest items were Kimber MIM barrel bushings and Colt forged slide stops.

That being said, it is hard to put a finger on what is the "best" 1911 on the market. Based on personal experience and that of others that own them, I feel the best valued 1911 on the market right now is a Les Baer TRS. They are well built without a lot of frills and made to run reliably with a minimum amount of maintenance. The only downside is the finish. The bluing is not as stout as Melonite, Tennifer, etc. but this can always be upgraded. This is where the Dan Wesson Valor shines.

The M&P system with the steel blocks mounted in the frame makes me wonder if they could build a 1911 system on that platform. I still like having a thumb safety but they could loose the grip safety and barrel link system of the 1911 while using the barrel lockup, ejection, and extraction system that the M&P uses.

MarshallDodge
01-08-10, 12:50
Power Mags work fine loaded to 8rds.

I have run Chip McCormick mags for years and leave the factory mags in the box. In the 4-4.25" length guns I find the best reliability with the Power Mags but the Shooting Stars run great in the 5" guns.

rob_s
01-08-10, 12:53
There's two routes to take. One is no judgment call, just list the material or the process and let the reader make up their own mind. The other is to do the explanation of features and explain that while MIM may be well served on some parts it's not a good idea on others, etc.

In the case of MIM it may get more complicated as some companies are using it for one part and not for another. My personal opinion is that it's fine for the grip safety but I'd rather have bar stock for all the other parts like fire-control and safeties.

Even if no judgment call is made, the potential issues and what to look for could be explained.

nking
01-08-10, 14:00
Stay away from Kimber. I had a warrior and it went back to the factory 6 times in the first year. They never fixed all the problems and I ended up selling it. I know other people who have had problems with different models. A lot of the top 1911 guys will tell you to stay away from them as well.

Yeah, they're pieces of junk. Heck, mine completed the 2K challenge and has never gone back to the factory, but what do I know?

Who are these "top 1911 guys" you speak of? It's easy to put words in the mouth of an anynomous expert. I am not an expert, but I have spoken to a few. All claimed that while they are not as collectable as a Colt, Kimbers are well made.

I will, however, concede that it is typically easier to get a nice trigger job with ignition parts machined from bar stock.

P.S. I'm not trying to be combative here. I just don't like people getting steered away from the brand without concrete evidence.

http://members.cox.net/nkpiano/001TSS.jpg

Dos Cylindros
01-08-10, 14:11
Yeah, they're pieces of junk. Heck, mine completed the 2K challenge and has never gone back to the factory, but what do I know?

Who are these "top 1911 guys" you speak of? It's easy to put words in the mouth of an anynomous expert. I am not an expert, but I have spoken to a few. All claimed that while they are not as collectable as a Colt, Kimbers are well made.

I will, however, concede that it is typically easier to get a nice trigger job with ignition parts machined from bar stock.

P.S. I'm not trying to be combative here. I just don't like people getting steered away from the brand without concrete evidence.

http://members.cox.net/nkpiano/001TSS.jpg

Is your gun a series 1? Does it have an external extractor? If the answer to #1 is yes and the answer to #2 is no, then that might explain why you have not had any trouble so far. You also have a full size 1911 which are far more forgiving than shorter formats.

As previously posted, I have owned two Kimbers and neither worked both pro length models which are Kimber's version of the commander. Mostly feedway problems.

I echo the statements of others made here in that you deffinately get what you pay for when it comes to the 1911. I have learned the hard way and will now only own guns built by reputable custom shops. A few examples would be Springfield Custom (own one and love it), MARS Armament (build in progress), Heirloom Precision, Rodgers, Harrison, Berryhill Etc...

These guns come at a price though and they are not for everyone.

nking
01-08-10, 15:39
It's a series II with internal extractor. My point is that you can get a sweet shooting 1911 without breaking into four figures. Does the fit and finish match a one-off custom? Absolutely not. But it will still shoot every time I pull the trigger and group smaller than I can. I also own a 4" and 3" 1911 that works every time, too.

Get the feed ramp geometry right, ejector the proper length and angle, extractor beveled and tensioned properly, and use proper springs/magazines you'll get one that works every time. Magazine springs on the smaller models should be stiff.

rob_s
01-08-10, 15:55
Are we really going to go down this "my sample of one, (or two, or five) is good so they all must be great/shit" path. again? really?

R Moran
01-08-10, 16:14
AND WERE OFF!!!

Mag's are another ball of wax, what works good in your individual gun, may not work good in others, even if its the same make and model gun, though some generalized patterns can be seen.

MarshallDodge,
M&P's come with thumb safeties if you like, otherwise the only thing you left, is the trigger, admittedly, the single thing that keeps the 1911 around. Put a pro-sear in an M&P and a trigger job, and you get very close to a 1911, close enough, it'd be a wash for most shooters, and then the other advantages of the M&P(or Glock) start to carry more weight.

Parts and Build quality,
Like it or not, that becomes subjective. While some abhor cast, Caspian frames were used for some top notch, real deal guns, LAV says they're as good as any.
Many feel mim sux, well if its crappy mim, but good quality mim, is better then poor quality forgings. Aubrey, is pretty sharp on that kinda stuff...
What one smith likes or dislikes, even if he's completely honest, could be very different then others.
Some manufactures skip manufacturing steps, and have no issues, because the guns generally don't see hard use.
Some people insist on, all forgings, hand fitting, etc. because that's the only way a "real gun" is made, see my comments about fat old bald guys. They have no real,factual, basis for their comments, like liberals, its all about feelings.:D

nking,
Who are they? Look up Vickers, Hackathorne or Yam. I sincerely doubt, you or most anyone has the collective knowledge of the 1911, that these three do. Especially, as two of them, use or have used it operationally.

Glad to see your individual Kimber series 2 is running good. But as Rob just eluded too, it a sample of one. Keep in mind, when serious end users, decide a particular gun, is "unreliable", it doesn't take a large percentage of guns. When LAPD, removed the G21 from it authorized list, it was only like 1 or 2% of the guns that had problems, to them it was unacceptable. Why risk it?

A search here will see the same argument applied to the various low tier AR's.

There are plenty of 1911's out there, in every conceivable configuration, at every price point, to meet almost any need. But, like the various "Fast, cheap and good, pick any two" you have to know what you are getting into.

Bob

MarshallDodge
01-08-10, 17:05
Yeah, they're pieces of junk. Heck, mine completed the 2K challenge and has never gone back to the factory, but what do I know?

Yes, it did complete an impressive challenge. Unfortunately they are too hit and miss for me to recommend one even though I have two pre-series II Kimbers and they have treated me very well.



M&P's come with thumb safeties if you like, otherwise the only thing you left, is the trigger, admittedly, the single thing that keeps the 1911 around. Put a pro-sear in an M&P and a trigger job, and you get very close to a 1911, close enough, it'd be a wash for most shooters, and then the other advantages of the M&P(or Glock) start to carry more weight.
I don't want this to turn into a M&P vs. the 1911 but I do have an M&P40 and like it, took it to a pin match last night as a matter of fact. Mine does not have the thumb safety because I didn't like where S&W put it and how it operated.

I can shoot the M&P pretty well in stock form but after nearly 20 years of running a 1911, it is taking some getting used to. Shooting the M&P has actually improved my shooting with the 1911 due to having to concentrate more on the trigger.

The M&P is not a 1911 and a 1911 is not an M&P. ;)

milosz
01-08-10, 18:05
M&P's come with thumb safeties if you like, otherwise the only thing you left, is the trigger, admittedly, the single thing that keeps the 1911 around.
I need to try one again, but my experience with the M&P45 was that I couldn't ride the safety with my thumb like a 1911 and it hurt my thumb with every shot unless I put my shooting hand thumb low.

re: your earlier statement about grip safeties being either MIM or cast, I believe Wilson Combat just came out with a forged grip safety. I imagine it's right pricey though.

Stretz Tactical Inc
01-14-10, 00:17
Yeah, they're pieces of junk. Heck, mine completed the 2K challenge and has never gone back to the factory, but what do I know?

Who are these "top 1911 guys" you speak of? It's easy to put words in the mouth of an anynomous expert. I am not an expert, but I have spoken to a few. All claimed that while they are not as collectable as a Colt, Kimbers are well made.

I will, however, concede that it is typically easier to get a nice trigger job with ignition parts machined from bar stock.

P.S. I'm not trying to be combative here. I just don't like people getting steered away from the brand without concrete evidence.

http://members.cox.net/nkpiano/001TSS.jpg

I don't even have to awnser this, it was done for me ;) If you have a kimber that works great, it's the equivilent of a glock 22 working with a light attached - some do, some don't.

MarshallDodge
01-15-10, 18:48
I had forgotten about this thread but thought some here would be interested in a discussion about part quality from Chuck Rogers and some other experts: Link (http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=224275)

Lots of good pictures sprinkled through the thread.

hatidua
03-17-10, 11:22
If I took the majority advice/opinions in this thread, I'd put my 1911's on gunbroker for sale this afternoon :(

....ain't gonna happen :p

d90king
03-17-10, 11:33
Sadly what could have been an excellent project with helpful info, appears to be going full retard... I am sure the "my Taurus runs flawlessly and passed the 2k challenge" guys will be along shortly.

MarshallDodge
03-17-10, 12:37
Sadly what could have been an excellent project with helpful info, appears to be going full retard... I am sure the "my Taurus runs flawlessly and passed the 2k challenge" guys will be along shortly.

Are we talking about this thread or something else?

dtibbals
03-17-10, 13:12
I have owned a custom shop Kimber and was not happy with the pistol at all! I sold it and never looked back. I know have a Colt Commander that was worked over that has been 100%. I bought the gun used and it is worth about $1200. I also have a Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special that I bought used for $1300 out the door and it is a solid well built always work pistol. My crown jewel is my Wilson Combat CQB Tactical LE. The Wilson is by far the best pistol in my collection and can be found used for the $1900-$2200 range, new is around $2700.

I would suggest you look for a higher end pistol that is used, you will be very happy you did!

David

JonInWA
03-17-10, 14:30
I'm personally ambivalent about the 1911-I have 3; a 1945 Remington Rand M1911A1, a SIGARMS GSR XO (very early second generation with the high-quality internal components, and set up by an expert {and recently thoroughly gone through and re-set as needed by an expert}), and a Nighthawk Custom Talon II; I've previously had a Colt Custom Shop Combat Commander.

When it's properly manufactured, and with quality materials/component parts, properly set-up and running correctly, a 1911 is sinfully rewarding-superb ergonomics, short trigger reset, excellent pointability, etc.

The problem is that there really is no getting around the fact that the 1911 was designed around early 20th century materials, manufacturing techniques, use of ball ammunition, and relatively low use patterns. They have a preponderance of small parts, most of which require hand fitting to some extent. I simply do not trust any 1911 to the extent that I do my Glocks. In a 1911, if something breaks (and, realistically, I'd suggest that it's not an "if" situation, but a "when"), you'd better have 1) some specific gunsmithing skills in fitting parts; 2)possession or access to machine tools; 3) or access to a skilled 1911-knowledgeable/experienced gunsmith (with a reasonable turn-around time...) and 4) a spare gun.

Conversely, with a Glock, if a problem develops (which actually will be pretty rare, in my experience/observation), it's usually resolvable with a simple parts swap, with no fitting required. Additional advantages are that they're made of materials preclusive of rust, and require singularly little in the way of operator maintenance and lubrication-ditto regarding their magazines.

I enjoy and cherish my 1911s. They are a magnificent example of design, manufacturing, and operation. But they can be fickle-both intrinsically, as well as regarding magazines and ammunition, and require a not insignificant amount of dedication, knowledge, resources and skill. If your objective is to have a reliable .45 ACP chambered firearm capable of placing rounds downrange in a defensive scenario regardless of environment, I would strongly recommend considering Glock, HK, Smith & Wesson M&P, Ruger P90, etc.

While I think that regarding a 1911 the best thing is to start off with a quality gun (i.e., Colt, Nighthawk Custom, Dan Wesson, Wilson, etc), the reality is that even these guns are no guarantee of being problem-free down the line. Realistically, they will be made of quality materials, by quality assemblers, and will be testfired for function (significantly so in the case of most semi-custom/custom shops) and tweaked accordingly before the gun reaches you. But even with the highest-quality 1911s, I think that it's inevitable that you'll encounter operational issues at a subsequent point with use-just view some of the forums like this one, m1911.org, 1911forum.com, etc.

The 1911 platform is a classic one-but I think that it's been rendered significantly obscelescent by more modern designs, especially for duty/self-defense purposes. Not worthless, or necessarily ineffective by any count (and there are certainly vehement dedicated users in the current LEO community: to wit, see the 10-8 Service 1911 forum)-but in my opinion, there are simply better, more durable, more reliable platforms available, particularly when one's life, or the life of loved ones/partners/teammates/squad is potentially at stake. What I would consider to be somewhat of an interesting point is that I've heard from a reliable friend (and in all fairness, one with Glock) that at least half of the LAPD SIS squad has chosen to remain with the Glock G21 as their sidearm of choice, despite the availability of the SIS-specific Kimber 1911 models.

While there's something to be said for prestige and heritage, I'll personally choose ruggedness, reliability, and ability to put rounds downrange, on target, as required-without excuses.

Best, Jon

CQC.45
03-18-10, 09:45
Hmm, comparing 1911s.

I'd compare them to Ford Mustangs.

The Mustang has been around for a long time and many consider them classics.

Many of the "classic" Mustangs can't actually meet modern standards of reliability and performance, but fans like to pretend they did.

A lot of people think they're wicked cool. The majority of people who own them don't actually own one of the wicked cool ones, but like to pretend they do.

Most people who own them can't actually do anything with them that they couldn't do with a Corolla, but they like to pretend they could.

A lot more people own 6cyl Mustangs than own GT500s but every Mustang owner acts like he's got a GT500.

If you beat a Mustang owner, he'll blame the road or say you're just a more skilled driver. If a Mustang owner beats you, he'll tell you how much better his car is than yours.

Comparisons are fun!

**Apology for the the car-related thread drift**

Ah, so we are going to bash the mustang...let see:

Most "classic" muscle cars cannot meet MODERN standards for performance, reliability, etc. (Yes I see the 1911 analogy here...)

New six cylinder mustangs have 315 hp and 275ft/lbs of torque. Wait a second, thats more HP AND Torque than that really cool new v6 camaro...all in a lighter platform! Oh and 31MPG

The new mustang GTs have 412hp and RAN EVEN (http://blog.caranddriver.com/2011-ford-mustang-gt-an-even-more-potent-track-pack-to-complement-the-400-hp-5-0-liter/) with a BMW M3 (which is 200lbs less than and twice the price of a mustang) at Gingerman Raceway. 26MPG as well.

GT500s have the 5.4 with 550hp, but it is now all aluminum block shaving 120lbs off the car.

Not to mention the countless other models by aftermarket companies (Saleen, Roush, Steeda, etc.)

Then we get into the aftermarket part market, which I would liken to the Glock or 1911 aftermarket part market (every kind of part imaginable)

Yes, a mustang fan right here.

Having said all of that, yes there are way to many V6 SN95 mustangs on the road being driven by high school kids....and this is all in good fun.

Now, back to 1911s.....;)

John_Wayne777
03-18-10, 11:58
Sadly what could have been an excellent project with helpful info, appears to be going full retard... I am sure the "my Taurus runs flawlessly and passed the 2k challenge" guys will be along shortly.

No, because if they show up I'll ban them.

Seriously, fellas...this sample of 1 nonsense has to stop.

Carry on. :)

CAVDOC
03-18-10, 13:29
I don't know if it means anything and perhaps somewhat off topic, but when in Iraq in 2004-5 I saw a fair number of 1911's being used from box stock GI to some sticking out of holsters that looked like they could be les baers. when I went to Afghanistan in 2008, even though we were co located with a SF compound at our post I did not see a single 1911?
were they or ammo not available or had shortcomings in performance (due to age,servicing, failures to function?) put them on the shelf in favor of other designs? just a thought

JonInWA
03-18-10, 19:16
I believe that some, if not many of the "Tier One" units have switched to Glocks, predominantly the G17, G19, G22 and G21s. I would also expect that there is some representation of the HK 45/45C and earlier USP models (as well as possibly/plausibly P2000 and P30 varients, etc.). And, of course, there are the Beretta M9 and SIG M11s. The Glocks and HKs are particularly attractive due to their low maintenance/lubrication requirements, durability, relative imperviousness to climate, and light weight. The 1911, on the other hand, is lubrication intensive, fairly heavy, and at a practical minimum to be readied for firing requires the additional motion/muscle memory of releasing the safety-but realistically, to preclude operational jamming from dust/dirt, thay are also apparently often carried in the hammer down configuration, as discussed by Larry Vickers awhile back.

Additionally, problems that can crop up with a 1911 can often require higher echelon support, which is not necessarily an available field option to such units on mission.

I believe that some units and/or individuals in such units have some individual/organizational latitude beyond the standard Beretta M9/SIG M11 standard issue sidearms.

Best, Jon

hossb7
03-19-10, 00:53
after reading this thread, along with a majority of the links posted in it, i can certainly say that i am much more educated about what it takes to run an effective 1911.

i'm going to be buying a low round count SA loaded from a good friend of mine this month for $500, so i figure for the price i can't go wrong.

if i shoot it for a bit and find that it needs some tooling - so be it. a lot of the guys who run 1911's in classes ive been too have had their guns worked on by John Jardine (but i dont think i've seen his name mentioned in this thread?)

either way, an SA Loaded for $500 is (IMHO) a great entry to the 1911 world.

:)

MarshallDodge
03-19-10, 23:14
Not all Wilsons are created equal - Link (http://forums.1911forum.com/showpost.php?p=2594185&postcount=5)

When questioned on why Wilson charges more for their BulletProof products:

Original post from skipsan on the 1911 forum:

The "Bullet Proof" thing is a pet peeve I have with Wilson. A BP exractor sells as a loose spare part for $33. A non-BP extractor sells for $30. Both claimed to be machined from forged bar stock. What could possibly make a BP part quantifiably superior to a non-BP part is beyond me, given that both are machined, bar stock parts. Extrapolating that to the balance of the parts that are either BP or not-BP, and there's probably a $10 difference in total cost of a pistol with BP parts than one with plain 'ole common parts. To play that marketing game with a $2500 pistol is something I don't understand.

If the difference were forged vs cast or MIM, that might be more palatable, but when both candidates are machined from forgings, I don't get it.

Answer from WilsonCombatRep:

The bulletproof extractor is STANDARD on a CQB along with the BP slide stop.

The bulletproof upgrade consists of beavertail, thumb safety, and mag catch. The standard part in that scenario is a casting. The BP upgrade IS an upgrade over cast parts. Other BP, machined from bar stock parts that are standard are extractor, slide stop, firing pin, fpin stop and ejector.

There are a multitude of reasons why the BP parts are BETTER than standard and also why they are more expensive. The Bulletproof extractor uses a different alloy that has to be machined on different equipment and heat treated with different (more costly) equipment/processing. the Bulletproof parts also have an unconditional lifetime guarantee against breakage which may matter a lot to someone who is having a custom gun built by a gunsmith other than us. For some folks, that is worth the small difference in price between a standard extractor and a BP extractor.

As far as the cost of bulletproof parts, I guarantee you that the profit margin on the cast parts is far better in every way. That is why we continue to sell cast parts The cast part comes out of a bag from a casting house and gets deburred and blued (if carbon)and put into another bag. Most cast parts require very little machining after casting except for slide stops which should have the axle machined for concentricity.

You can build a fine gun out of cast parts. In our view, you can build a much better gun out of barstock parts. The only thing a company needs to set up a shingle to sell cast parts is seed money and a vendor. To develop, design, and machine a bulletproof part takes the machinery, a design engineer, master CNC machinist, and a team of gunsmiths to assist in prototyping and design. We happen to have all of this in place.

When we build a bar stock part like a BP thumb or grip safety we control every aspect of the process-we program the CNC, we buy the steel, we ensure the heat treating, and we control the quality going in and out. The only thing we don't control is the heat treating of the part.

In contrast, none of the 1911 parts houses that sell cast parts produce their own parts. They may own a mold,sitting at a vendors shop somewhere miles away from their building, but they don't own or control a casting foundry, so they are at the mercy of the vendor to supply the part to the level of quality that they need and to ensure their specs are met.

In short, for us to offer a "lifetime" performance guarantee, we need to control the manufacture of the part from start to finish. BP allows us to do that, in a more finely finished product that actually requires slightly less massaging, with less trashed parts.

There is MUCH more to bulletproof parts than meets the eye. If you have a gun with a bulletproof upgrade you can see and feel the difference.

All my personal guns get the upgrade, that's for sure. And I pay for them just like you all.

So before anyone asks-every part in a current Supergrade, CQB Elite, MS Sentinel, and Ultralight Carry are Standard with ALL Bulletproof parts. Every part on these guns is machined from bar stock or a forging. To upgrade any other gun in the lineup is a nominal upcharge.

So there you go folks, not all "machined from bar stock" components are created equal either.

HK45
03-19-10, 23:22
No, they haven't, and no offense but I don't know where you could have gotten that idea. Very few units have the ability to pick and choose their weapons, far fewer than commonly believed. Even within the very few units that have some choice it is a limited choice. The Beretta predominates, unfortunately. Personal weapons or battlefield pickups were more common in the beginning but there has been quite a crackdown on that. I always carried a 1911 locked and cocked in the Marines but I know it was common, if not required, in other services to carry hammer down and even unloaded when the 1911 was the mass issued weapon.


I believe that some, if not many of the "Tier One" units have switched to Glocks, predominantly the G17, G19, G22 and G21s. I would also expect that there is some representation of the HK 45/45C and earlier USP models (as well as possibly/plausibly P2000 and P30 varients, etc.). And, of course, there are the Beretta M9 and SIG M11s. The Glocks and HKs are particularly attractive due to their low maintenance/lubrication requirements, durability, relative imperviousness to climate, and light weight. The 1911, on the other hand, is lubrication intensive, fairly heavy, and at a practical minimum to be readied for firing requires the additional motion/muscle memory of releasing the safety-but realistically, to preclude operational jamming from dust/dirt, thay are also apparently often carried in the hammer down configuration, as discussed by Larry Vickers awhile back.

Additionally, problems that can crop up with a 1911 can often require higher echelon support, which is not necessarily an available field option to such units on mission.

I believe that some units and/or individuals in such units have some individual/organizational latitude beyond the standard Beretta M9/SIG M11 standard issue sidearms.

Best, Jon

rob_s
03-20-10, 07:50
My point is that you can get a sweet shooting 1911 without breaking into four figures.
Can? Yes. Likely to? I am sorry but no. This, of course, depends on your definition of "sweet shooting". Yes, you can buy a $500 1911 that will run for the Saturday morning IDPA match wherein you'll fire 80 rounds, then take it home, detail strip it, clean it, and put it back in the safe until next month. Many of these people will declare their gun to be "flawless". However, put that same guy in a class where he fires 3x as many rounds before lunch on TD1 as he's ever fired in one sitting, and problems start to appear most riki tik.


Get the feed ramp geometry right, ejector the proper length and angle, extractor beveled and tensioned properly, and use proper springs/magazines you'll get one that works every time. Magazine springs on the smaller models should be stiff.
Herein lies the problem. You go ask all the gunsmiffs out there what that geometrey, length, and angle are and you'll start getting a ****load of hemming and hawing, jawing and jacking. Most, frankly, don't know. Just like mot AR makers don't know what HPT and MPI really mean in the government specs, most 1911 smiffs (based on my attempts at research) don't know the right numbers for the 1911 either.

If I was going to revive my attempt at the 1911 comparison chart I would need a copy of the government drawings, specs, and diagrams for the original (or probably better, last) issued 1911 pattern firearm. What we would be after is the measurements for the fire control components and the internals of the gun. So while I'd want a 1911 that had all of the exact correct dimensions for the sear, I would only really be interested in the internal dimensions for the thumb safety as the original GI pad is non-critical to the operation of the firearm. Same could be said for the grip safety, where we would want the engagement surfaces to be correct but the profile on the exterior of the gun may vary.

And, just like with the AR, we could make accommodations for new and "better" designs but we would need people with the ability to demonstrate WHY their way is better, and not just different.

Which, IMHO, brings us to where the 1911 market SHOULD BE: a product that exactly replicates the original internal dimensions and materials with slight external improvements based on a modern user interface:
1) High cut front strap
2) Novak sight cuts
3) beavertail grip safety
4) extended thumb safety.

What we need, in short, is for BCM to make a 1911! :D

JonInWA
03-20-10, 19:42
No, they haven't, and no offense but I don't know where you could have gotten that idea. Very few units have the ability to pick and choose their weapons, far fewer than commonly believed. Even within the very few units that have some choice it is a limited choice. The Beretta predominates, unfortunately. Personal weapons or battlefield pickups were more common in the beginning but there has been quite a crackdown on that. I always carried a 1911 locked and cocked in the Marines but I know it was common, if not required, in other services to carry hammer down and even unloaded when the 1911 was the mass issued weapon.

HK45-I agree with you-Sorry, I thought that would be implicit from my using the "Tier One" unit terminiology early in my response (which by definition I meant just those few/select units, not the entire US armed forces-and I realize that there may be limited individuality options within those units as well). Mea culpa, mea culpa, woe is me! The next time I'll be more explicit up front.

Best, Jon

opmike
03-20-10, 23:49
I got a BCM middy for right around 1000 with everything except a light and optic. Is such a thing simply not possible with a 1911?

Can one not buy a 1911 that can stand up to a comparable (as far as handguns go) amount of use and abuse as the Noveske, Daniel Defense, BCM, etc. carbines around the 1K mark?

Not trying to be argumentative at all, just curious. Seems like most of the recommendations are models that start 1500+, or near 1K models that will potentially need 500+ in gunsmithing.

Interesting how it getting a squared away rifle can be an almost cheaper proposition.

Matt Edwards
03-21-10, 23:02
JoninWA,
You have nothing to be sorry about. Drive on Bro.

DocGKR
03-27-10, 17:45
"Can one not buy a 1911 that can stand up to a comparable (as far as handguns go) amount of use and abuse as the Noveske, Daniel Defense, BCM, etc. carbines around the 1K mark?"

I don't believe any of the 1911's in that 1K price range will be as durable--you will likely need to go up to 2-2.5K to get that in a 1911. On the other hand, you CAN get that level of durability and reliability from 9 mm Glocks, M&P's or the HKP30/HK45 for far less than 1K...

bobdavis
03-30-10, 08:24
I still like having a thumb safety but they could loose the grip safety and barrel link system of the 1911 while using the barrel lockup, ejection, and extraction system that the M&P uses.

Aren't you talking about a Hi-Power then? It's always seemed that, with the exception of the whole 9mm vs. .45 issue and the "cheater" trigger, Browning's Hi-Power solves the issues that everyone seems to have with the 1911. High capacity, no grip safety, great ergos, slim design, pretty to look at, easy to shoot - it's got it all, and it seems to be way more reliable than what one reads about 1911's on the 'net.

Thoughts? Am I full of it?

bob

badboy522
03-30-10, 09:02
Hmm, comparing 1911s.

I'd compare them to Ford Mustangs.

The Mustang has been around for a long time and many consider them classics.

Many of the "classic" Mustangs can't actually meet modern standards of reliability and performance, but fans like to pretend they did.

A lot of people think they're wicked cool. The majority of people who own them don't actually own one of the wicked cool ones, but like to pretend they do.

Most people who own them can't actually do anything with them that they couldn't do with a Corolla, but they like to pretend they could.

A lot more people own 6cyl Mustangs than own GT500s but every Mustang owner acts like he's got a GT500.

If you beat a Mustang owner, he'll blame the road or say you're just a more skilled driver. If a Mustang owner beats you, he'll tell you how much better his car is than yours.

Comparisons are fun!


Oh yes soooo true and damn funny...LMAO

JonInWA
03-30-10, 11:00
Bob, I hardly think that you're full of it, but speaking from the point of someone who has one (and has had two others previously-and all .40), I think that there are some caveats that need to be placed on the Hi-Power- I'm talking only about current, post-1994 guns with the cast receiver:

1) The square, unbeveled (and realistically, pretty much unbevel-able to any significant extent) magazine well makes speedy insertion of magazine reloads a bit of a challenge, requiring much practice/built-up muscle memory-and even then it's still a bit dicey;

2) Out-of-the-box triggerpulls on contemporary Hi-Powers are notorious for often being at least heavy, and often gritty as well, necessitating a trigger job;

3) We've had some excellent discussions on Hi-Power longevity in the fairly recent past. Informed consensus is that they're pretty much 30,000 to 35,000 round guns, with barrels likely needing to be replaced around the 15,000 round point. However, up to that point, I think that a modern Hi-Power is at least as durable as a 1911 (despite some fiddly small parts, particularly in the trigger-to-sear process)-but a 1911, due to a combination of heavier construction and orientation around a lower-pressure cartridge (primarily) will likely last significantly longer-so a long as judicious attention is paid to lubrication, maintenance and scheduled spring and parts replacements.

4) Hi-Powers, as they come have some undesirable gripping characteristics, given their smooth front- and rear backstraps. This is easily resolved, through the use of things like skateboard tape, grips (i.e., Hogue's rubber Fingergroove grip {which additionally nicely "bulks up" the Hi-Power frame, which for me is a bit too thin, ironically-with the Hogue grip addition, my trigger finger is positioned "just right"} and stippling. Informed judgement is that you're a bit on the edge regarding checkering, due to the lack of frontstrap metal thickness, although some can do it.

5) Cost and availability. Hi-Power production is modest at best, reportedly being limited to about a thousand per year to the US. Parts are made in Belgium, assembled and finished in Portugal, and then imported. Not the most cost-effective or profitable business model for a gun manufacturer, and it's probably the Hi-Power's status as a desirable classic (and, to be fair, its continued intrinsic viability) that preserves its continued production. Pricing is relatively astronomical in comparison to most of its contemporaries-$800-plus for a MK III, higher for polished and blued Standard models, even from high volume discounting stores. That's up there in HK territory, and I'm just not sure that a contemporary Hi-Power is functionally and/or durably comparable to an HK P30 and/or HK45-to say nothing of less-expensive Glocks and M&Ps. Then again, it is a classic...

6) Springing. The .40 Hi-Powers in particular have a very heavy recoil spring (20 lb), making jacking the slide a bit of an effort-especially with slippery hands. Recoil spring re-insertion after field stripping is a bit of an acquired skill as well.

7) Trigger reset is long-as in letting the trigger go all the way foward, like a revolver. Not a big deal (unless you're just coming off a 1911 or a Glock and have your muscle memory built up on a short reset point).

Otherwise, I agree-the Hi-Power is an often overlooked alternative, and I think a very viable one, within given constraints. I actually trust a contemporary out-of-the-box Hi-Power more so than a similar 1911.

Best, Jon

jmp45
03-30-10, 12:52
Having very little experience with a 1911, I've been interested in either the S&W 1911 or a Springfield 1911, preferring the S&W. I haven't seen much buzz about the S&W and I'm wondering if there are issues with it.

S&W - http://tinyurl.com/jtbp5
Springfield - http://tinyurl.com/yfk9rn8

MarshallDodge
03-30-10, 13:27
Having very little experience with a 1911, I've been interested in either the S&W 1911 or a Springfield 1911, preferring the S&W. I haven't seen much buzz about the S&W and I'm wondering if there are issues with it.

S&W - http://tinyurl.com/jtbp5
Springfield - http://tinyurl.com/yfk9rn8

I lean toward the Springfield because:

1. It does not have the firing pin safety system. Springfield uses a custom lightweight firing pin which is a simpler solution and works just as well in preventing the gun from firing when dropped.

2. The S&W uses an external extractor which I have mixed feelings on based around how they perform in the 1911. You can find many more gunsmiths that know how to make the internal extractor design work, and work well.

jmp45
03-30-10, 13:47
Thanks MD, your input is much appreciated..

d90king
03-30-10, 14:02
I lean toward the Springfield because:

1. It does not have the firing pin safety system. Springfield uses a custom lightweight firing pin which is a simpler solution and works just as well in preventing the gun from firing when dropped.

2. The S&W uses an external extractor which I have mixed feelings on based around how they perform in the 1911. You can find many more gunsmiths that know how to make the internal extractor design work, and work well.

I agree with Marshall on the SA as the option I would choose...

On the external extractor I am slowly getting less caught up on them after seeing what Paul L @ Pistol Dynamics is doing with them and the reliability his pistols have shown while using them.

I have also heard some good things about the S&W version from some guys who know 1911's and what makes them run... The purist will never like them (EE) because JMB didn't use them on the 1911 but times are changing...

MarshallDodge
03-30-10, 14:36
I agree with Marshall on the SA as the option I would choose...

On the external extractor I am slowly getting less caught up on them after seeing what Paul L @ Pistol Dynamics is doing with them and the reliability his pistols have shown while using them.

I have also heard some good things about the S&W version from some guys who know 1911's and what makes them run... The purist will never like them (EE) because JMB didn't use them on the 1911 but times are changing...

I agree that the external extractor is a better option but I am still not sure that S&W's version is the way to go.

Sidewinder6
03-30-10, 15:48
As this discussion had recent activity, I scrolled back through from the OP forward and clicked on the link for Post # 35 in this thread and the link has been hijacked. I had one of those AntiVirus hijacking pop ups that I had to kill.

A note to the other members here. Careful.

Redhat
03-30-10, 17:59
I agree that the external extractor is a better option but I am still not sure that S&W's version is the way to go.

MD,

Do you have a reason for this view on the S&W external extractor?

Thanks

bobdavis
03-30-10, 21:07
Lots of great points, Jon. Thank you.

I really enjoy shooting my Hi-power, but the Glock 19 is what I tend to carry. You're dead on about the springing - it's a huge difference between a Glock and a BHP, and the possible slickness is an issue that's never been an issue for me, but it's been a concern... if you get what I mean.

I'm surprised about the "Informed consensus is that they're pretty much 30,000 to 35,000 round guns, with barrels likely needing to be replaced around the 15,000 round point." statement. I know the lugs in the slide can get rounded off, but what else can be a problem?

I really like shooting hi-powers, and would carry it (it's slim, points well for me, I like 9mm, etc.) if I got as automatic with it as I am with a Glock.

Is there a more modern alternative that's as "carryable" as the BHP? I'm primarily thinking about the thickness of the slide (esp. when compared to a Glock - which is chunky, I think).

bob



Bob, I hardly think that you're full of it, but speaking from the point of someone who has one (and has had two others previously-and all .40), I think that there are some caveats that need to be placed on the Hi-Power- I'm talking only about current, post-1994 guns with the cast receiver:

1) The square, unbeveled (and realistically, pretty much unbevel-able to any significant extent) magazine well makes speedy insertion of magazine reloads a bit of a challenge, requiring much practice/built-up muscle memory-and even then it's still a bit dicey;

2) Out-of-the-box triggerpulls on contemporary Hi-Powers are notorious for often being at least heavy, and often gritty as well, necessitating a trigger job;

3) We've had some excellent discussions on Hi-Power longevity in the fairly recent past. Informed consensus is that they're pretty much 30,000 to 35,000 round guns, with barrels likely needing to be replaced around the 15,000 round point. However, up to that point, I think that a modern Hi-Power is at least as durable as a 1911 (despite some fiddly small parts, particularly in the trigger-to-sear process)-but a 1911, due to a combination of heavier construction and orientation around a lower-pressure cartridge (primarily) will likely last significantly longer-so a long as judicious attention is paid to lubrication, maintenance and scheduled spring and parts replacements.

4) Hi-Powers, as they come have some undesirable gripping characteristics, given their smooth front- and rear backstraps. This is easily resolved, through the use of things like skateboard tape, grips (i.e., Hogue's rubber Fingergroove grip {which additionally nicely "bulks up" the Hi-Power frame, which for me is a bit too thin, ironically-with the Hogue grip addition, my trigger finger is positioned "just right"} and stippling. Informed judgement is that you're a bit on the edge regarding checkering, due to the lack of frontstrap metal thickness, although some can do it.

5) Cost and availability. Hi-Power production is modest at best, reportedly being limited to about a thousand per year to the US. Parts are made in Belgium, assembled and finished in Portugal, and then imported. Not the most cost-effective or profitable business model for a gun manufacturer, and it's probably the Hi-Power's status as a desirable classic (and, to be fair, its continued intrinsic viability) that preserves its continued production. Pricing is relatively astronomical in comparison to most of its contemporaries-$800-plus for a MK III, higher for polished and blued Standard models, even from high volume discounting stores. That's up there in HK territory, and I'm just not sure that a contemporary Hi-Power is functionally and/or durably comparable to an HK P30 and/or HK45-to say nothing of less-expensive Glocks and M&Ps. Then again, it is a classic...

6) Springing. The .40 Hi-Powers in particular have a very heavy recoil spring (20 lb), making jacking the slide a bit of an effort-especially with slippery hands. Recoil spring re-insertion after field stripping is a bit of an acquired skill as well.

7) Trigger reset is long-as in letting the trigger go all the way foward, like a revolver. Not a big deal (unless you're just coming off a 1911 or a Glock and have your muscle memory built up on a short reset point).

Otherwise, I agree-the Hi-Power is an often overlooked alternative, and I think a very viable one, within given constraints. I actually trust a contemporary out-of-the-box Hi-Power more so than a similar 1911.

Best, Jon

JonInWA
03-31-10, 08:34
Bob there's an excellent multi-page thread titled "Any Experiences With .40 Cal. Hi-Powers?" locatable through the Search function here, where we pretty thoroughly discussed the pros and cons of the Hi-Power in great detail-both 9mm and .40 (with some very experienced and credible participants).

I'm not suggesting that the Hi-Power is necessarily a bad choice for carry, but that it has some vicissitudes that need to be factored in with your decision process.

Any contemporary firearm selection for carry involves compromises, either in the firearm itself, or in one's selection of support accessories-i.e., holster, clothing, ammunition, etc.

I personally usually cary a Glock-either a G17, G19 or G21. Yes, they're certainly chunkier than a Hi-Power, but they're also lighter, so the trade-off works for me (along with other factors, such as durability, weather imperviousness, etc.).

An other alternative (particularly size-wise) might be along the lines of the CZ75/P01/PO7, but there are compromises with them as well.

I think that if you search the forum here, as well as other similar forums, you'll find that there's a large consensus that the best guns for carry and hard use are the Glock G17/G19, the HK P30/HK45/HK45C, and the Smith & Wesson M&P-but there are certainly many other viable selections available.

Best, Jon

Redhat
03-31-10, 19:03
MD Thanks,

I checked his site but couldn't find much. My issue pistol is an M9 so I suppose cleaning an ext extractor is no big deal for me. Incidentally, my other 1911 is a Colt 70 series.

DacoRoman
04-01-10, 00:16
I'm fascinated with the fact that Paul Libenberg chooses to use external extractors on his pistols. But if modern guns can use an external extractor, than one would think that a 1911 can be made to work with one too, with less worries about properly tensioning the extractor, etc., but having said this, maybe the reason why some external extractors don't work well with 1911's is because they interfere with the controlled feed system by essentially having too much tension.

Does anyone own a Pistol Dynamics gun? How does it run, and how does it compare to the Wilson Combat, Nighthawk, Ed Brown, etc guns?

d90king
04-01-10, 08:43
I'm fascinated with the fact that Paul Libenberg chooses to use external extractors on his pistols. But if modern guns can use an external extractor, than one would think that a 1911 can be made to work with one too, with less worries about properly tensioning the extractor, etc., but having said this, maybe the reason why some external extractors don't work well with 1911's is because they interfere with the controlled feed system by essentially having too much tension.

Does anyone own a Pistol Dynamics gun? How does it run, and how does it compare to the Wilson Combat, Nighthawk, Ed Brown, etc guns?

I know a couple guys who own several and they are top notch and run like a sewing machine... If the extractor is fit properly they will be GTG just like any other part on a 1911... It all boils down to proper fitting.

I don't think you will find many who will knock a pistol built by Paul, his work is excellent and I don't believe he would use EE if he didn't believe in them...

Check out the custom build forum on www.m1911.org and you will see some. Look at the one he recently built for "dogdollar"

DacoRoman
04-01-10, 21:21
I know a couple guys who own several and they are top notch and run like a sewing machine... If the extractor is fit properly they will be GTG just like any other part on a 1911... It all boils down to proper fitting.

I don't think you will find many who will knock a pistol built by Paul, his work is excellent and I don't believe he would use EE if he didn't believe in them...

Check out the custom build forum on www.m1911.org and you will see some. Look at the one he recently built for "dogdollar"

His pistols are really easy on the eyes and seem to be held in very high esteem. I would love to try one out.