New Finish stronger than IonBond????

[MikeCLeonard]

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/

Anyone seen or know anything about this new finish being used on CZ's new 1911? They seem to be saying it's much tougher that IonBonds DLC finish which would be pretty amazing.

[Dos Cylindros]

Interesting. I know (but not from first hand experience) that ion bond is very tough and resistant to wear, I am glad to see the newer finishes leaning this way and protecting against rust.

[theJanitor]

i thought it was a melonite type finish. i had this done to a stainless 1911 and it seems indestructible. ion-bond is still a great finish, that is hard to beat.

Melonite done by Drake Oldham:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h30/grandprixboy/AAdrake1911037.jpg

[MikeCLeonard]

It was my understanding that the melonite finish is not actually a black finish, but a surface treatment that protects rust...and that the actual black finish is a top layer to the melonite.

For example: Glocks tenifer finish which is pretty much the same thing as melonite can be scratched without too much trouble...but is very resistant to corrosion.

[WS6]

QPQ is the toughest finish I am aware of, it is actually a surface treatment. My P226 Elite ST went in for it the other day.

[d90king]

Skeptical.... Must see to believe, but I guess I like a little honest wear on my 1911's anyway...

Its kinda a shame that DW ruined a great niche market that they once filled... 2k for a DW.:rolleyes: PASS...

[theJanitor]

It was my understanding that the melonite finish is not actually a black finish, but a surface treatment that protects rust...and that the actual black finish is a top layer to the melonite.

For example: Glocks tenifer finish which is pretty much the same thing as melonite can be scratched without too much trouble...but is very resistant to corrosion.

as was my understanding, but it must be such a great base layer, that i can't scratch mine either.

D90, i wholeheartedly agree. $2k DW is just too much. I bought a full house Bob Miller built on a DW for less than that. used, of course

[maximus83]

Skeptical.... Must see to believe, but I guess I like a little honest wear on my 1911's anyway...

Its kinda a shame that DW ruined a great niche market that they once filled... 2k for a DW.:rolleyes: PASS...

Amen brother. At 1200 to 1300, a DW Valor was an appealing option. At 2K, it's an overpriced, mass-produced 1911 that is nowhere nearly as attractive as simply stepping up to a Wilson, Brown SF, or Springfield Pro. Heck, if I'm going to spend 2K, may as well spend $200 to $500 more and get something that's proven to be top of the line reliability and performance.

[ToddG]

SIG used a QPQ on the slides for a while mid-decade. The finish was so strong that it accelerated wear on frame rails and the barrel surface. A little imperfection in the slide, like a burr, instead of breaking off with use would instead gouge the holy hell out of whatever parts it mated with.

A super-tough finish is great, but not if it interferes with the overall function of the gun.

[WS6]

SIG used a QPQ on the slides for a while mid-decade. The finish was so strong that it accelerated wear on frame rails and the barrel surface. A little imperfection in the slide, like a burr, instead of breaking off with use would instead gouge the holy hell out of whatever parts it mated with.

A super-tough finish is great, but not if it interferes with the overall function of the gun.

I thought this was one of their Nitron formulas that did this and was unaware that SIG had ever QPQ'ed a handgun. I thought Ilaflon, Ceracote, Nitron, Blued, Nickle, Natural SS were the only finishes offered OEM by them "recently". Do you have more info on this?

[ToddG]

"Nitron" has been many different finishes and processes over its existence. SIG always calls it Nitron no matter what the process is and what vendor is applying it.

This is just like Glock, which has changed the exact process for "tennifer" more than once but continues to call it tennifer.

[WS6]

"Nitron" has been many different finishes and processes over its existence. SIG always calls it Nitron no matter what the process is and what vendor is applying it.

This is just like Glock, which has changed the exact process for "tennifer" more than once but continues to call it tennifer.

Ahhh...I was not thinking. You said they QPQ'ed the slide. You CAN'T QPQ aluminum, so you had a QPQ'ed slide on aluminum, and if a burr made it through the ano...like you said...

I was thinking about steel-frame guns.

[MikeCLeonard]

SIG used a QPQ on the slides for a while mid-decade. The finish was so strong that it accelerated wear on frame rails and the barrel surface. A little imperfection in the slide, like a burr, instead of breaking off with use would instead gouge the holy hell out of whatever parts it mated with.

A super-tough finish is great, but not if it interferes with the overall function of the gun.

Todd, I have been planning on having my M&P 9 slide & barrel either QPQ'd or IonBonded. I have a few pistols with IonBond's finish and really like it...but have been curious about giving the QPQ finish a try.

Do you see any possible issues with the QPQ finish on the M&P platform?

Thanks!

-Mike

[ToddG]

Has the finish on your M&P failed in some way?

[Marcus L.]

Has the finish on your M&P failed in some way?

....the nail has been hit on the head.

[WS6]

Has the finish on your M&P failed in some way?

I like the QPQ for its protection of the bore. I have several pistols that have scratches in the bore that I have no clue where they came from as they were always cleaned properly with a brass brush. The QPQ will almost double the hardness of the bore.

Also, I have found the barrel-hoods on SIGs really like to rust. In fact, SIGs just seem to enjoy rusting in my (limited) experience. QPQ is like hard-chrome, except better in every way and non-reflective (albeit much more permanent).

I think it is an advancement on standard finishes and bore linings. Just because something has not failed, does not mean it cannot be improved upon.

Just .02 from a self-proclaimed OCD perfectionist.

[Dave Berryhill]

I have no idea what that is but there are some new finishes finding their way into the firearms market that we all will be learning more about in the near future. FailZero (Nickel Boron) and some PVD coatings to name a few.

As for the info provided by the link from the OP, one of the claims is, "This finish is bonded to the metal down below the surface." That sounds pretty high tech until you realize that bluing (black oxide) and parkerizing (manganese or zinc phospate), two of the oldest firearms finishes around, also bond to the metal down below the surface as does any other finish that chemically reacts with the steel.

I'm not knocking the finish, I'm cutting through the hype.

[WS6]

I have no idea what that is but there are some new finishes finding their way into the firearms market that we all will be learning more about in the near future. FailZero (Nickel Boron) and some PVD coatings to name a few.

As for the info provided by the link from the OP, one of the claims is, "This finish is bonded to the metal down below the surface." That sounds pretty high tech until you realize that bluing (black oxide) and parkerizing (manganese or zinc phospate), two of the oldest firearms finishes around, also bond to the metal down below the surface as does any other finish that chemically reacts with the steel.

I'm not knocking the finish, I'm cutting through the hype.

I didn't read that, but yes, I think it's sad that everything involves hype now, but to be fair, everything I know of is based around the 8th grade education level. That is how we are taught to educate our patients in the hospital. 8th grade level (as a default approach of course), so their description isn't so horrific we you take into account that they are aiming to reach everyone from your level, who can break down what actually is going on, down to "bubba's" level.

More about QPQ (not on 8th grade level):


In a liquid nitriding bath, nitrogen-bearing salts produce a controlled
and highly uniform release of nitrogen at the interface of the workpiece.
Nitrogen diffuses into, and chemically combines with, nitride-forming
elements in the metal, producing, through catalytic reaction, a tough,
ductile compound layer with exceptional engineering and wear properties.

This compound layer has wear properties that are 200% to 1000%
greater than the original material, and greatly enhanced resistance
to corrosion, and galling.

Subjacent to the compound zone is another distinctive region,
the diffusion zone. This evolves from progressive diffusion of the
nitrogen, and consists of a solid solution of nitrogen in the base material.
The diffusion zone contributes a critical fourth benefit of salt bath nitriding:
substantial enhancement of fatigue strength, typically 20% to 100%.

Salt bath nitriding / liquid nitriding is a highly active process;
more intense, and more efficient than gas nitriding, or ion nitriding.

Salt bath nitriding / liquid nitriding is performed following heat treating and
finish machining. Dimensional stability of processed parts is unchanged,
and core properties are uncompromised, providing heat treat temperatures
were higher than the salt bath nitriding solution (typically 1060-1075°F).
Parts that have been processed in a salt bath nitriding / liquid nitriding
solution can be quenched in water, air, or oil.
From: http://www.hefusa.net/salt-bath-liquid-nitriding.htm

[MikeCLeonard]

Has the finish on your M&P failed in some way?

Nope it hasn't, but I just like to have the best available finishes I can on my firearms. I have never had a factory finish that didn't start wearing on the edges with very little use & holstering which doesn't make them function any worse...just bugs me...this including my M&P.

[WS6]

Nope it hasn't, but I just like to have the best available finishes I can on my firearms. I have never had a factory finish that didn't start wearing on the edges with very little use & holstering which doesn't make them function any worse...just bugs me...this including my M&P.

QPQ will show surface wear, but the changes in the metal extend to .004-.005" below the surface, so yes, you will see wear, but the property of those shiny spots will be the same as the non-shiny spots. Those uber-tough Glock slides are not QPQ on the surface, they were 'parked on top of the QPQ. Look at a Glock barrel if you want to see how QPQ wears. It wears just like bluing, only a lot more long-lived (same pattern I mean, you still get barrel-smiley with a Glock, just takes a lot longer).

[Marcus L.]

Also, I have found the barrel-hoods on SIGs really like to rust. In fact, SIGs just seem to enjoy rusting in my (limited) experience. QPQ is like hard-chrome, except better in every way and non-reflective (albeit much more permanent).

I have worked beach and marine patrol for several years now with a Sig P229 and I work on the other officer's Sigs. Provided that officers clean them once every week or two, and clean them after water and sweat exposure, the corrosion isn't much more of a problem than the Glocks, Hk USPs, and M&Ps used in the area. Sigs like oil, and a little bit of oil on the top of the locking lug rides up on the hood during cycling.

The primary corrosion problems are usually the magazines in nylon belt pouches which absorb sweat, the magazine release button, and the decocker and slide release levers. You can swap out the carbon steel controls with Sig nickel ones, and you can put some oil in the nylon of the pouches to resist moisture. Those little changes work wonders in keeping your Sig rust free. The only other problem is the annoying Siglite night sights which are made of carbon steel......cheap crap. Replace them with Trijicons and the problem is solved. Oh, and replace those grip screws with stainless ones.

As far as refinishing the stainless Sig slide, I think it's a waste of time unless you want a show pistol. For me, a little holster wear and a few scratches ensures that I want to use it as a combat pistol. ;) Some of our guys who have had custom finishes done have had some parts go out of spec leading to function problems.

[WS6]

I have worked beach and marine patrol for several years now with a Sig P229 and I work on the other officer's Sigs. Provided that officers clean them once every week or two, and clean them after water and sweat exposure, the corrosion isn't much more of a problem than the Glocks, Hk USPs, and M&Ps used in the area. Sigs like oil, and a little bit of oil on the top of the locking lug rides up on the hood during cycling.

The primary corrosion problems are usually the magazines in nylon belt pouches which absorb sweat, the magazine release button, and the decocker and slide release levers. You can swap out the carbon steel controls with Sig nickel ones, and you can put some oil in the nylon of the pouches to resist moisture. Those little changes work wonders in keeping your Sig rust free. The only other problem is the annoying Siglite night sights which are made of carbon steel......cheap crap. Replace them with Trijicons and the problem is solved.

As far as refinishing the stainless Sig slide, I think it's a waste of time unless you want a show pistol. For me, a little holster wear and a few scratches ensures that I want to use it as a combat pistol. ;) Some of our guys who have had custom finishes done have had some parts go out of spec leading to function problems.

I had mine done because I DIDN'T want a show-pistol (natural ST finish). I just based my experience on what goes on in my gun-safe, and what I have seen time and time again at gun-stores. If you look at the SIGs that have been on display more than a few weeks, they all seem to have rust. Never seen this on any other decent pistols for sale.

Very good advice for practical rust prevention.

What material are Trijicon's made from?

[Marcus L.]

I had mine done because I DIDN'T want a show-pistol (natural ST finish). I just based my experience on what goes on in my gun-safe, and what I have seen time and time again at gun-stores. If you look at the SIGs that have been on display more than a few weeks, they all seem to have rust. Never seen this on any other decent pistols for sale.

Very good advice for practical rust prevention.

What material are Trijicon's made from?

The Trijicons are machined from some sort of corrosion resistant alloy.....not sure what. It's probably the best overall night sight on the market.

The Sig barrel is cold hammer forged carbon steel. Carbon steel wears better than stainless and is stronger overall. As you add nickel or chrome you tend to lose some of those properties that allow the steel to be both elastic and hard. However, a little oil on it for lube will also solve your rust problem. Gun stores usually clean off all the oil and lube on the pistols to show them so that customers won't get their pretty fingers oily. Customers touch the carbon steel parts of it with dirty hands, and thus you get rust spots on the guns in the store.