Forward grip position

[B52U]

For those that utilize a forward vertical grip, where is the most advantageous position on the rail (closer to the sight post or closer to the magazine well) and why?

[SWATcop556]

For me, closer to the FSB. I gave more control over muzzle rise and o can drive the gun better.

If you run it close to the magwell, why not utilize the magwell as a grip and save the $$$ from the VG for more ammo. :cool:

[Failure2Stop]

This has been gone over many many times before and has a lot to do with upper body position, technique, strength, and proficiency.

Those that are in the top percentages of rifle/carbine run-n-gun and tactical shooting tend to use the VFG as more of a handstop than an actual grip. The Magpul angled foregrip shows what the underlying structure of the grip basically is. Some have their hand a little "flatter" on the rail, and some drop their ring and little finger (rarely also the middle finger) onto the VFG, but that's about it. So the VFG would be placed just inside the knife-edge of the hand while in a non-VFG grip.

However, there are other circumstances that will alter hand position/VFG position-
Thumb extended, thumb over top rail, or index finger pointing- some will require more distance from the end of the rail than the others.
Body position will change how far out on the HG you grip.
Rail length will change grip position, especially if you are sticking lights to a 7" rail.
Of course, this assumes that you understand and can apply the advantages of a more extended grip on the HG in the first place.

An extended grip in the manner I have described, whether using a VFG or not, has been proven to be a superior grip to a magwell hold or near-magwell VFG grip, and far better than a "gripping" hold on the VFG (as if it were a broomstick). The further out on the barrel you can grip the easier it will be to drive the gun, reduce muzzle bounce, and present the gun faster. However, if you want to be slow and inaccurate, the near-magwell chicken-choker hold would be the way to go.

[SWATcop556]

F2S with the more technical answer. :D

[B52U]

My apologies for beating a dead horse. Thanks for the response.

[Failure2Stop]

Don't take my initial response wrong- it was really explaining why you won't see a lot of senior members, Industry Professionals, and Subject Matter Experts weighing in on this- not because they aren't competant in discussing it, but rather that most of them are tired of arguing about it.

It's not your fault, it's just the circumstance.

[Surf]

It just depends.+1

:)

[Pappabear]

F2S

Good info. It may have been beaten to death in the past, but I had not seen it and wondered. Muzzle flip seems the best answer for me. I have a very short rail on one carbine and wondered what the sacrifice was. Good info.

[Surf]

F2S

Good info. It may have been beaten to death in the past, but I had not seen it and wondered. Muzzle flip seems the best answer for me. I have a very short rail on one carbine and wondered what the sacrifice was. Good info.For myself and I am way far out on the fore end which is why I like an extended or aftermarket rail or tube type of fore end. Muzzle rise / control is one of the big ones but just as important for me is the ability to more rapidly transition from target to target but perhaps more importantly is the ability to stop the rifles momentum more quickly on target. Which as mentioned above is often referred to as "driving the gun". Using these methods, overall speed and accuracy is greatly increased for myself.

As for true carbine length set ups, since my arm length extension is shortened due to the fore end hand guard length, I tend to use a "C" clamp grip, where I wrap my support thumb over the top of the hand guard, whenever possible. I am a finger pointer type (from my competitive shotgun days) but I often have to modify that as I tend to burn my finger quite often on the FSP / barrel area. I will also say that on a rifle length AR/M16 type without a VFG, I will also use a long extension of my arm and a "C" clamp grip. On my work gun I use a combat style thumbs forward grip similar to a pistol grip and not a "C" clamp grip. This is because of my rifle / light set up. The VFG combined with the thumbs forward grip allows me to have the same control as the "C" clamp grip.

[USMC03]

What works for *me* based on my body size, the way I have my carbine set up, ergonomics, and what helps be drive the gun the best.


http://03designgroup.com/photo/vertical-foregrip-placement/icon-vertical-foregrip-placement.jpg
03designgroup | Vertical Foregrip Placement http://demigodllc.com/icon/extwh3.png (http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/vertical-foregrip-placement)

[crazymoose]

I've always liked a VFG somewhere in the first half of the rail, to be used in achieving a grip not unlike that of my support hand on a "thumbs forward" grip for my 1911s and Glocks. My thumb wraps around the side/top of the rail, my other fingers are underneath on the rail, pushed up against the VFG. Now I have been using a Magpul AFG for this grip in the same location and am very pleased by the results.

The best advice is to shoot a whole lot and find what works for you. Shooting fads come and go. In the '80s, putting your support hand index finger on the trigger guard was the wave of the handgunning future. Farther back then that, if you had a subgun or assault rifle, you weren't shit unless you were shooting on full auto from the hip, often in a weird squat like you were trying to take a dump. In another 10 years, another trend will take over, and people will look at pictures of the now-modern technique and laugh at how we shot with our arms stretched straight out, hands gripping way the hell down at the end of the HG/rail. My prediction, anyway. Seriously, though, if it works, who cares if it looks dumb?

[freakshow10mm]

I'm 5-10 with average reach. My 11.5 inch M16 with YHM QD flash suppressor is the same length as the stock extended fully and my left arm extended fully, to give a visual.

I have a stubby VFG about two slots from the delta ring. I use the "Costa" grip as in the first DVD set or the half & half:

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/Magpul_Industries/AFG_5.jpg

There are cons to this but the advantages I like are it keeps my trigger hand loose, owing in part to the support hand cradling the barrel and the VFG allows my support hand to pull the gun tight to my shoulder. This keeps my trigger hand relaxed and I can focus better on my trigger squeeze.

[Outlander Systems]

The only benefit to a grip closer to the magwell is endurance. Everything else suffers.

[freakshow10mm]

Not in my case. Endurance wasn't the only improvement.

[crazymoose]

The only benefit to a grip closer to the magwell is endurance. Everything else suffers.

I also disagree. Everyone is built differently and will find some techniques better than others.

I have no idea how some guys deadlift sumo-style, since I go conventional, but I see some who pull really heavy weight that way.

[Caeser25]

I'm 5-10 with average reach. My 11.5 inch M16 with YHM QD flash suppressor is the same length as the stock extended fully and my left arm extended fully, to give a visual.

I have a stubby VFG about two slots from the delta ring. I use the "Costa" grip as in the first DVD set or the half & half:

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/Magpul_Industries/AFG_5.jpg

There are cons to this but the advantages I like are it keeps my trigger hand loose, owing in part to the support hand cradling the barrel and the VFG allows my support hand to pull the gun tight to my shoulder. This keeps my trigger hand relaxed and I can focus better on my trigger squeeze.

I still prefer this to the afg...:o

[freakshow10mm]

I'm definitely checking out the AFG at the booth. Ergonomics is very important to control and confidence with my weapons. If the AFG looks like it will help me, I'll definitely try it out.

[Failure2Stop]

Not in my case. Endurance wasn't the only improvement.

I am confused here.
Are you saying that you shoot better with a magwell or near magwell hold, because your posts seem to indicate a high/extended as much as possible grip.

[Failure2Stop]

I also disagree. Everyone is built differently and will find some techniques better than others.

There are some aspects of shooting technique that are debatable amongst professionals, and compromises that some us must make due to equipment or situation, but a more extended grip on the HG than at the magwell is a matter of physics, and pretty much beyond debate.

I am going to go out on a limb here and make the obsertvation that you have not been around dudes that can really run a gun, and/or have not had a trainer that has pushed you outside of your comfort zone with enough knowledge to identify and correct the weak points in your technique.

[freakshow10mm]

I am confused here.
Are you saying that you shoot better with a magwell or near magwell hold, because your posts seem to indicate a high/extended as much as possible grip.
No, close to mag well. I was trying to illustrate how long my arms are in the previous post, since height isn't a true indicator and a pic of me holding the weapon isn't possible without anyone else around.

This is my grip. Best I could do with one hand.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Freakshow%20Mfg/P1060475.jpg

Finger rests between the rails to aid in target acquisition. Carryover from my trap shooting days.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Freakshow%20Mfg/P1060476.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Freakshow%20Mfg/P1060477.jpg

[crazymoose]

There are some aspects of shooting technique that are debatable amongst professionals, and compromises that some us must make due to equipment or situation, but a more extended grip on the HG than at the magwell is a matter of physics, and pretty much beyond debate.

I am going to go out on a limb here and make the obsertvation that you have not been around dudes that can really run a gun, and/or have not had a trainer that has pushed you outside of your comfort zone with enough knowledge to identify and correct the weak points in your technique.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm no world-class rifleman. I do far more handgun work than rifle work in my training and practice, so you are correct that my opinion offers no objective weight, since it comes from my own experience and an amalgamation of observations I've made over the years of shooters much better than myself.

However, I do believe that my point still stands. Look at how much rifle technique has changed over even the past decade, due to the explosion of AR accessories and the growing popularity of carbine classes. Five years ago, the "chicken choker" grip was the way to go. Now it's the "hand forward around the rail" grip that's the way to go. Different schools and instructors pop up, some push different and new styles. We saw the same thing in the '70s and '80s with pistol technique. Before that, real men shot one-handed, or maybe in Weaver. Now we have Weaver, Isosceles, Chapman, thumbs forward, thumbs up, thumbs curled down, thumbs crossed, ride the safety, don't ride the safety, and even the occasional really weird, short-lived offshoot like pointing the index finger along the frame and pulling the trigger with the middle finger.

Don't get me wrong, the hand-forward grip is a very good grip. My problem with it is the same problem I have with shooting a handgun Isosceles: you get the "tank turret" syndrome, where you trade quite a bit of weapon manoeuvrability for some gain in control during rapid fire. For me, the hand-forward grip takes longer to shoulder the rifle and aim than other holds, as well as taking longer to transition to targets left or right.

I think a lot of these techniques gain momentum because people go to classes where they're taught these techniques and then see real improvement in their shooting. The problem is that I think a lot of people credit the new technique for the improvement, rather than having had a good instructor helping to really get the fundamentals like trigger control and breathing down.

Overall, I'll put it this way: given how much shooting technique has changed, do you think that this grip will still be the dominant technique in five, 10, or 20 years?

[crazymoose]

As for the shooting instructor/ student improving arguement I will say this. I have fooled around with time hacks while using the magwell vs. far out grip. The magwell splits are never close to the far out splits. From presenting to a single target, to transitioning from target to target, magwell for me, and people I shoot with, has never been faster.

PJ

It does make sense to me that one would get better splits with the hand forward. I absolutely agree about the leverage issue controlling muzzle rise. Personally, I am much faster putting the first round on target holding the first half of the handguard, I think because keeping a tight stance with my arms in close feels natural to me and gives me a steadier aim (I'm 6'3" with long arms but I keep my stocks at the 2nd or 3rd notch).

I do periodically try the hand-forward hold, thinking I might eventually have one of those "A-ha, this is better!" moments like I had the day I realized that I preferred a thumbs-forward handgun grip over a traditional Weaver grip. So far, it just isn't clicking for me.

[Failure2Stop]

I do periodically try the hand-forward hold, thinking I might eventually have one of those "A-ha, this is better!" moments like I had the day I realized that I preferred a thumbs-forward handgun grip over a traditional Weaver grip. So far, it just isn't clicking for me.

If all it took was to see a picture or demonstration, professional instructors would not be of much value. The biggest benefit to sharing this kind of information is that people usually decide to seek professional training. And it absolutely correct that practice and repetition are keys to proficiency, but the more efficient the position the greater the benefit will result from the high density training. Expecting an immediate jump in proficiency from a weak position that you are comfortable with to a position that you may or may not be doing correctly that you are unfamiliar and uncomfortable using is expecting the unlikely, and I don't know of any credible trainer that implies such. That's the trainer's job- to show you what can be done, explain how he does it (and the variations due to structure), coach the individual, and push the individual to become accurate, faster.



Five years ago, the "chicken choker" grip was the way to go.


Not among any decent instructors I know or trained with. And this dates back to the very first use of rails/VFGs. True, some people did it, but just because some people don't know what they are doing does not mean that the industry leaders don't.



Now it's the "hand forward around the rail" grip that's the way to go. Different schools and instructors pop up, some push different and new styles. We saw the same thing in the '70s and '80s with pistol technique. Before that, real men shot one-handed, or maybe in Weaver. Now we have Weaver, Isosceles, Chapman, thumbs forward, thumbs up, thumbs curled down, thumbs crossed, ride the safety, don't ride the safety, and even the occasional really weird, short-lived offshoot like pointing the index finger along the frame and pulling the trigger with the middle finger.

Some techniques are gear/weapon driven, and some are results of learning.
We have finally been around modern weapons long enough and applied them to violent conflict. We know more about gunfighting than we did yesterday, and a hell of a lot more than in the 70s. Our ability to analyze data, share information, understand the body alarm reaction, watch gunfights on film, etc, we are light-years ahead of our predecessors and the rate of advancement is unparalleled.



Don't get me wrong, the hand-forward grip is a very good grip. My problem with it is the same problem I have with shooting a handgun Isosceles: you get the "tank turret" syndrome, where you trade quite a bit of weapon manoeuvrability for some gain in control during rapid fire.


The tank-turret is a good thing. The upper body is crucial in controlling the weapon, regardless of how you hold the front end. There will be a specific angle, and a specific placement of the stock that will most naturally present the gun closest to target and manage recoil. That point needs to be consistent in relation to the target. Shifting the gun alone relies on weaker muscles and a few differnt parts moving- shifting the core keeps everything in correct position and works faster. Minor adjustments are still made at the hands, of course.



I think a lot of these techniques gain momentum because people go to classes where they're taught these techniques and then see real improvement in their shooting. The problem is that I think a lot of people credit the new technique for the improvement, rather than having had a good instructor helping to really get the fundamentals like trigger control and breathing down.

Basing this on what experience?
Repetative practice of an efficient technique will show better result than practicing an inefficient technique.



Overall, I'll put it this way: given how much shooting technique has changed, do you think that this grip will still be the dominant technique in five, 10, or 20 years?

Until there is a shift in technology, I would say most probably. Now, it might not be the most popular technique, but it will be the most sound technique. It has been the dominant position in run-n-gun competitions for more than 10 years.

[sundowner41]

I like my LaRue grip out as far as it can go on the rail. I like the feeling of "pulling" the rifle into my shoulder and feel for me at lease I'm able to control the muzzle from swaying that way.