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WS6
01-09-10, 01:17
At least, that is what federal is claiming from the "XM9HA" round, which uses the 147gr HST projectile. Oh, it's not a +P round either, not according to the packaging.

Marcus L.
01-09-10, 08:15
What is XM9HA ?
What are the specs and what bullet is used in it?

Response from Federal Ask the Expert 1/7/10,

Greetings,

The XM9HA is a product overrun from a government contract it is loaded
with our 147gr HST bullet with velocity at 1180FPS and 479 ft lbs of
energy.

Thank you


My guess is that this ammo was intended for submachine gun use. There are a number of European 9mm SMG loadings that are basically ++P++ in power level. SMG 9mm ammo is not designed to be used in handguns and it can be dangerous. Some guns have exploded after the first shot, and some have gone through a couple of thousand rounds of it. There are some Russian pistols that are designed for such high powered 9mm ammo, but they are marked accordingly. This 147gr ammo is a little more tame and would probably be okay, but performance wise it might have too much hydraulic force on the hollow point and break off the petals causing actually less wounding volume and over penetration. Regular HSTs already open up the hollow point enough to make the petals perpendicular to the bullet trunk........additional velocity will only fold them back more to either lay them flat up against the bullet trunk or break them off. The advantage of this load would be deeper penetration and better barrier penetration, but probably not better terminal effects.

WS6
01-09-10, 08:33
What is XM9HA ?
What are the specs and what bullet is used in it?

Response from Federal Ask the Expert 1/7/10,

Greetings,

The XM9HA is a product overrun from a government contract it is loaded
with our 147gr HST bullet with velocity at 1180FPS and 479 ft lbs of
energy.

Thank you


My guess is that this ammo was intended for submachine gun use. There are a number of European 9mm SMG loadings that are basically ++P++ in power level. SMG 9mm ammo is not designed to be used in handguns and it can be dangerous. Some guns have exploded after the first shot, and some have gone through a couple of thousand rounds of it. There are some Russian pistols that are designed for such high powered 9mm ammo, but they are marked accordingly. This 147gr ammo is a little more tame and would probably be okay, but performance wise it might have too much hydraulic force on the hollow point and break off the petals causing actually less wounding volume and over penetration. Regular HSTs already open up the hollow point enough to make the petals perpendicular to the bullet trunk........additional velocity will only fold them back more to either lay them flat up against the bullet trunk or break them off. The advantage of this load would be deeper penetration and better barrier penetration, but probably not better terminal effects.

On Glock Talk there are photos of it fired into phone-books and it didn't appear to have sheared petals. As to the pressure, it is using 3n38 powder, which according to Vihtouri is capable of driving a 147gr 9mm to 1200fps using 6.9gr. Published load. Based on what I have read, the information is accurate according to those who have chronographed it.
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=74053&hl=3n38

Marcus L.
01-09-10, 09:12
It's definately an interesting loading. It would be good for hunting or game protection if you choose to carry 9mm.

Negatives to the loading would be muzzle flash, blast, and recoil which will effect your combat performance. For me, the fastest I'd go with 147gr would be Federal's HST 147gr+P at 1050fps. It already penetrates an average of 15" with reliable expansion with good barrier penetration. It even penetrates steel as well as 9mm NATO as I've done with 1/8" sheets.

WS6
01-09-10, 15:11
It's definately an interesting loading. It would be good for hunting or game protection if you choose to carry 9mm.

Negatives to the loading would be muzzle flash, blast, and recoil which will effect your combat performance. For me, the fastest I'd go with 147gr would be Federal's HST 147gr+P at 1050fps. It already penetrates an average of 15" with reliable expansion with good barrier penetration. It even penetrates steel as well as 9mm NATO as I've done with 1/8" sheets.

My interest in it is more academic than anything. My 357SIG will push a 147gr bullet plenty fast enough for me. I just thought it really interesting.

ehryk
01-09-10, 21:35
A few questions on this load then. Sincethe Speer Gold Dot is also a bonded core bullet that performs pretty close to the HST, would the 147 Gold Dot also be suitable? I see on all the load datas available at loaddata.com that 124s max out at about 1240 or so. It appears to me this is more due to bullet limitations than to velocity limits, yes? As for the 147, is the cavity deeper or is the base just longer? Also, is the 147 designed to open at lower velocities that would make its usefulness at 1200 fps limited?

I have some 3N38 that I use for my 5.7, I may have to get some Gold Dot 147s and shoot the Perma-Gel to get an idea how the bullet may behave at those velocities.

DocGKR
01-09-10, 21:46
While the Speer Gold Dot is a bonded bullet, the HST is NOT a bonded projectile; the Federal bonded handgun loads are labeled "Tactical Bonded" (LE9T1, LE9T5, LE357ST4, LE40T1, LE40T2, LE40T3, LE45T1).

Perma-gel is not the ideal media for testing projectile terminal performance nuances.

ehryk
01-09-10, 21:48
aha, ok I did not realize that. Thank you Sir.

ETA: I know Perma-Gel is not ideal, but for what I can do at home and for what I am getting from it, its better than water or wet phone books ;) When I got the Perma-Gel, I knew its limitations and I got it for what it was. Believe me, if I had the resources available to do proper gelatine, I would heheheh

PA PATRIOT
01-09-10, 21:52
Whats a good source for this ammo?

DaveC
01-09-10, 22:57
Here is the link that was on another forum,

https://surplusammo.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=635&zenid=6775f713ae0065be0df26765f44ff608


Some talk on GT about this ammo having failures to fire.

TiroFijo
01-10-10, 08:33
I just want to add that this load should have about 25% more recoil impulse than SAAMI normal 9 mm loads, and 15% more than +P loads. Even if the pressure is within SAAMI +P, NATO or CIP standards (all pretty close, and the 9x19 case takes it well), the added recoil impulse will generate higher slide velocities and may bring durability or reliability problems with extended use.

TiroFijo
01-11-10, 11:00
DocGKR, have you tested this load?

TIA

DocGKR
01-11-10, 18:08
No we have not.

TY44934
01-12-10, 10:54
I posted in the thread you linked. Here is my response:

"It would indeed be an awesome load - for shooting bowling pins. Expect stout recoil.

If it hits 1200, that would be a 176 Power Factor. And there it is, right on line for everyone to see: - a published 9mm Major load. Must be safe, if its published in this litigious age.

I don't doubt that your Glock 34's longer barrel will produce that velocity. I'd use the heaviest recoil spring available. BTW, I have shot Major 124s from a stock Glock 17. The Glock can take it. "

As for this new factory loading, I agree that it is best to use it in a modern gun of STRONG design/materials. Such guns, from my personal experience, include:

-Glocks

-Steyr M9 & varients

-custom 2011s with supported chamber / ramped barrels

-75s including Sprinigfield P9, Jericho 941, Tanfoglio, CZ, etc.

I would NOT use such ammo in a Beretta, however. The design of the Beretta is too weak for this ammo & the locking block will soon crack.






On Glock Talk there are photos of it fired into phone-books and it didn't appear to have sheared petals. As to the pressure, it is using 3n38 powder, which according to Vihtouri is capable of driving a 147gr 9mm to 1200fps using 6.9gr. Published load. Based on what I have read, the information is accurate according to those who have chronographed it.
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=74053&hl=3n38

TY44934
01-12-10, 10:59
While the Speer Gold Dot is a bonded bullet, the HST is NOT a bonded projectile; the Federal bonded handgun loads are labeled "Tactical Bonded" (LE9T1, LE9T5, LE357ST4, LE40T1, LE40T2, LE40T3, LE45T1).

Perma-gel is not the ideal media for testing projectile terminal performance nuances.


The Gold Dot is NOT a "bonded" bullet in the traditional sense. It is an ELECTROPLATED bullet. Review the Speer reloading manual around p.90 for photos of the production process for Gold Dot bullets. They start life as swaged lead cores which are then electroplated & finally shaped into JHPs - which, as you know, are good performers as defensive JHPs.

But do not buy into Speer's marketing hype about "the jacket is bonded to the core one molecule at a time."

"One molecule at a time" is just misleading double-talk for ELECTROPLATED.

All Federal "bonded" bullets use traditional pre-formed jackets to which a lead core is actually "bonded."

TiroFijo
01-12-10, 11:32
TY44934, a traditional jacket that is bonded to the core may provide more design variables (variable thickness, etc.), but regarding "bonding" there is nothing better than electroplating, this makes sure the core does not separate from the jacket.

And if the gold dot line performs well, why bother with technicalities or marketing hype?

There are many pistols than may take the aditional pounding of a 175 PF well ...for a certain number of rounds. Probably you would have to replace recoil springs for stronger ones, change mag springs oftern, check for slide stop cracks, etc., and the modifications needed to extend the pistol life would render it finicky for normal loads.

The best candidates would be the pistols with lots of slide+barrel mass to keep the slide velocity down, like a 1911. The CZ 75 breaks the slide stop often even with normal 9 mm ammo, and does not have a lot of slide+barrel mass.

Jack-O
01-12-10, 18:33
"Traditionally" bonded or not, the gold dot is IN FACT bonded, and the process they use is a superior method of getting a lead core and a jacket to stick together.

I've seen the difference between regular jacketed bullets and plated ones when we did some range plate clean off. the plated jacket wont come off that bullet unless you melt the lead away. It's REALLY stuck on there good!! the jacketed stuff however, usually separates when they hit.

ehryk
01-12-10, 19:52
I posted in the thread you linked. Here is my response:

"It would indeed be an awesome load - for shooting bowling pins. Expect stout recoil.

If it hits 1200, that would be a 176 Power Factor. And there it is, right on line for everyone to see: - a published 9mm Major load. Must be safe, if its published in this litigious age.

I don't doubt that your Glock 34's longer barrel will produce that velocity. I'd use the heaviest recoil spring available. BTW, I have shot Major 124s from a stock Glock 17. The Glock can take it. "

As for this new factory loading, I agree that it is best to use it in a modern gun of STRONG design/materials. Such guns, from my personal experience, include:

-Glocks

-Steyr M9 & varients

-custom 2011s with supported chamber / ramped barrels

-75s including Sprinigfield P9, Jericho 941, Tanfoglio, CZ, etc.

I would NOT use such ammo in a Beretta, however. The design of the Beretta is too weak for this ammo & the locking block will soon crack.

How about in the XDM 9?

Molon
01-30-10, 14:53
As to the pressure, it is using 3n38 powder,

You sure about that?

Aurispector
01-30-10, 18:01
I've seen postings about this round on multiple forums. Given the known excellent performance of the HST or Ranger T I have to wonder exactly what benefits this brings to the table. And how those benefits balance against the problems created.

LMTRocks
02-01-10, 12:30
I use Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P in my Beretta CX4 occasionally...by that I meant I've fired perhaps 100rds of it and probably a thousand 115gr WWB. I can imagine getting around 1300fps from the Federal in a carbine because the GDHP 124gr +Ps are launched around 1350fps from the CX4. The same bullets in a 4" gun are somewhere in 1220fps range.

remast457
02-23-10, 00:54
doubletapped submit, sorrry

remast457
02-23-10, 00:55
I know that this hasn't been posted to in a while, but I thought I would update the thread that someone on that other forum clocked it and the actual velocities achieved were in the ~1050fps range.

sgalbra76
02-23-10, 09:17
Given that the regular 147gr HST is a very reliable expander, and that it already penetrates beyond 12" in bare gel, I don't see a real need for this load other than what Marcus mentioned in regard to game protection. Remember, that the average human torso doesn't get any thicker than 8-9" from front to back. I'm betting that this 147gr+P would have a penetration rating of around 18".

It might be good for breaking internal bone structure. I haven't shot it, but I'm guessing that it would flip the muzzle more than the mild .40S&W 180gr load. You might as well shoot the 180gr .40 for the bigger hole.

Center Shot
02-23-10, 12:20
I just finished Chronographing this load and the Standard HST load!

My chronograph is a Oehler Model 35P and the temperature was 53 degrees. I fired five rounds of each out of a Glock 17.

FEDERAL 9mm Luger 147 grain XM9HA Lot #23 P444W001
1. 1019
2. 1012
3. 993
4. 1027
5. 1022
Average = 1014 fps

Federal 9mm Luger HST 147 grain P9HST2 LOT # 3-23Y707
1. 1019
2. 1028
3. 1021
4. 1027
5. 1039
Average = 1026 fps

I would say these are the same rounds. I did not have any malfunctions!

Molon
02-23-10, 14:16
FEDERAL 9mm Luger 147 grain XM9HA Lot #23 P444W001

Average = 1014 fps


Federal 9mm Luger HST 147 grain P9HST2 LOT # 3-23Y707

Average = 1026 fps



Well done Center Shot. Yet again, a little application of science trumps speculation, conjecture and assumptions.


...

Molon
09-14-10, 11:26
My chronograph is a Oehler Model 35P and the temperature was 53 degrees. I fired five rounds of each out of a Glock 17.

FEDERAL 9mm Luger 147 grain XM9HA Lot #23 P444W001
1. 1019
2. 1012
3. 993
4. 1027
5. 1022
Average = 1014 fps

Federal 9mm Luger HST 147 grain P9HST2 LOT # 3-23Y707
1. 1019
2. 1028
3. 1021
4. 1027
5. 1039
Average = 1026 fps



Here’s some new data that reinforces Center Shot’s findings. The test vehicle was a Glock 19 with a 4.0” barrel (the same length barrel used for SAAMI reference testing). A 10-shot string of standard pressure Federal 147 grain HST was fired back to back with a 10-shot string of the Federal XM9HA over an Oehler 35-P chronograph with “proof-screen” technology. The velocities cited are muzzle velocities as calculated from the instrumental velocities using Oehler’s Ballistic Explorer software program.


Federal 147 grain XM9HA: 999 fps
standard deviation = 11 fps

Federal 147 grain HST: 1018 fps
standard deviation = 7 fps



Atmospheric conditions:

Temperature: 72 degrees F
Humidity: 36.3%
Barometric pressure: 29.99 inches of Hg
Elevation: 950 feet above sea level



Also, here is a pic of the powder used in the Federal XM9HA ammunition.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/m1gu1gchza.jpg


It is clearly visible that this is a “flake” type powder.


Now here’s a pic of Vihtavuori 3N38 powder.


http://www.box.net/shared/static/1titf0leki.jpg


It’s just as clear that 3N38 is not a “flake” powder, but rather a “stick” type of powder.


Lastly, here’s a pic of the locking-block from my Beretta 92, after having fired several magazines of the Federal XM9HA through it. Not a crack to be found.;)



http://www.box.net/shared/static/tklr6t95h6.jpg


.....

Wayne Dobbs
09-14-10, 13:51
Molon,

Thanks for the update post. Could you post photos of the two rounds for a comparison?

Thanks,

Wayne

Molon
09-14-10, 14:17
Originally posted by Wayne Dobbs:

Molon,

Thanks for the update post. Could you post photos of the two rounds for a comparison?




http://www.box.net/shared/static/r6r7tnc3vl.jpg


XM9HA on the left, HST on the right.



http://www.box.net/shared/static/dsrx0h54u7.jpg




http://www.box.net/shared/static/rg2l7dojnv.jpg





http://www.box.net/shared/static/gnl8eetkuh.jpg


.....

Wayne Dobbs
09-14-10, 17:56
Thanks, Molon.

Looks to be exactly the same ammo in different packaging.

wahoo95
09-14-10, 18:43
Not sure what the deal is with that federal ammo, however I will confirm that you can push 147gr pills up to 1200fps using 3N38. I've chronokd my handloads out of my 5" barreled AR at 1175-1180 with no pressure signs. I'm sure I could hit 1200fps if I spent the time to make changes to primers, case, length etc, however I haven't felt the need. Recoil is more stout but not unmanageable.

Molon
09-14-10, 18:47
Not sure what the deal is with that federal ammo, however I will confirm that you can push 147gr pills up to 1200fps using 3N38. I've chronokd my handloads out of my 5" barreled AR at 1175-1180 with no pressure signs. I'm sure I could hit 1200fps if I spent the time to make changes to primers, case, length etc, however I haven't felt the need. Recoil is more stout but not unmanageable.

You pretty much missed the point. Federal XM9HA is not charged with VV 3N38.

wahoo95
09-14-10, 19:09
I didn't miss the point, I was simply confirming that 3N38 is good for reaching 1200fps with 147gr 9mm for those interested in loading some. The Federal ammo is obviously not loaded with 3N38 as can be witnessed by the pics you posted for everyone to view. So what powder are they using??? I'm assuming you don't know and neither do the rest of us hence the reason I wrote that I didn't know what the deal was with the Federal ammo.

Forgetfull
09-19-10, 19:36
I chronod 5 rounds out of a Polygonal 3.3 inch barrel. 95 degrees out.


968
959
973
962
944