View Full Version : forward asst broke
im new to the ar scene but not to firearms. i recently acquired an m4 rifle for Christmas and had quite a few issues. i have had to replace the gas rings after about 25 rounds, which was a learning experience. now, this morning i discovered while at the range that the forward assr pawl broke and jammed the bolt mechanism. my question is...a) is this typical wear on a rifle that is so new and b) what causes a forward asst malfunction like this?
here are the particulars:
blackthorne upper
essential arms lower
tufforce rail system
bushnell mp trophy red/green optic
Don Robison
01-10-10, 19:18
It's not normal for a quality rifle properly built with quality parts. Blackthorne is neither.
Sparky5019
01-10-10, 19:25
Welcome in, sorry to hear you are having problems!
Some questions to ask about an M4 before buying:
Is it Mil-Spec (military specifies parts dimension, material, hardness)?
Have you heard of the manufacturer before and how long have they been in business (if not ask around; places like this)?
Check out the AR Gen Discussion forum and the technical forum and there are several threads about choosing manufacturers and what items need to be checked out before buying and what to do if you have already bought a suspect quality gun.
Good Luck, I hope it works out!
Also, DO NOT spend ANY more money on it before doing some SERIOUS reading here!
Sparky
Robb Jensen
01-10-10, 19:25
"Just as good as".... usually isn't.
holy shit.. can we sticky this for a little while?
bdub... this weapon isn't going to be salvageable. i strongly suggest selling for what you can, and then taking a few weeks to read all the technical stickies here at M4C.
please dont take offense- the person who gave it to you didn't know any better, or they wouldn't have.
Do you mind if I ask how much you paid for the POS?
Do you mind if I ask how much you paid. . .?
Looks like on their online site, complete kits (rifles?) go for a high of five hundred twenty-five dollars? Kind of tell-tale eh? :confused:
the work was done by a family member who is LE so i dont want to hang them out...here is a pic
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/bdub712/ar%20parts/IMG_1975.jpg?t=1263175760
Thomas M-4
01-10-10, 20:45
First welcome to the forum.
You have 2 choices 1st sell it and use the funds for a down payment on another rifle.
2nd You can try to fix as many of the problems with it has you can there is a good chance you could get a decent range gun out of it I wouldn't want to trust my life or my families life with it but it could be good learning experience working on the AR-15 platform.
Required reading
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6642
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=24397
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7009
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7463
The assembly may well have been competent.
The difficulty is that even Yugo hired competent assembly people. The car was still 25 years behind the times and barely worth the money.
Don't go overboard yet, an Essential Arms lower isn't the end of the world, and the Bushnell optic may not be Aimpoint, but it will still work. Best thing to do is have a knowledgeable AR15 gunsmith (not everyone is) look at it and give an opinion on what parts are ok and what are less than quality.
I'd worry about the bolt carrier group and whether it's milspec, particle inspected, etc. Then the barrel should be shot by a known good shooter to determine it's MOA ability.
A broken forward assist isn't so bad, not many ever use them, and just as many could be worried doing so would make a situation worse. Just fix that as is, if you do want to sell it, it has to be anyway.
As for the gas rings, you can check your self if they need replacement - remove the BCG, hold it down, the bolt should not pull down by gravity. Other than broken rings, that's all you do - which brings up why they were needing to be changed anyway?
It may turn out buying a better assembled upper is a good bet - or selling the whole thing - but I wouldn't get stampeded into dumping it, especially for a loss. Not necessary.
It may not be a Tier One Milspec SHTF zombie killer, but it beats not owing one at all. Be patient, all said and done you'll have the real scoop on what is better and be the go to guy on it in the long run.
here is a pic of the whole thing...
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/bdub712/ar%20parts/IMG_1975-1-1.jpg?t=1263180538
I am sorry to say you have a rifle from a company considered by all to be the worst in the business. Two people arguing over Bushmaster Vs. Colt will stop and agree 100% on how bad blackthorne is. The company has had to change it's name many times to stay in business. It used to be called Hesse, also called Vulcan at one point, and I think a completely new name now.
My suggestion would be to scrap the entire thing and start over. I also wouldn't recommend wasting money on chi-com knock off ACOG's either. Get the real deal or just use iron sights. If this lower is good you may be able to start with that as a base.
well it's boxed up and going back...the whole upper that is...the builder is going to contact the manufacturer and lay the blame on them pretty hard...if anything i'm guaranteed a new upper...im hoping from a new vendor...
those that are interested i'll share what BT response is...
bdub
well it's boxed up and going back...the whole upper that is...the builder is going to contact the manufacturer and lay the blame on them pretty hard...if anything i'm guaranteed a new upper...im hoping from a new vendor...
those that are interested i'll share what BT response is...
bdub
read read read, my friend- get as up on the technicals as you can before deciding what new upper to get. you could end up with something totally different but still totally gay.
and yes- please let us know what the response it.
The Essential Arms lower is good to go. This is a perfectly fine lower. I have two of them and they function flawlessly. I have a Larue Stealth upper mounted on one and have put over 800 rounds through it without a hiccup.
Get a quality upper and you are good to go.
Mark Phelps
01-13-10, 18:44
Man, that many problems with a brand new firearm is downright scary. Suddenly Model 1 Sales is sounding better and better.
Man, that many problems with a brand new firearm is downright scary. Suddenly Model 1 Sales is sounding better and better.
da ****? this is why you DONT buy Model 1 Sales.. we've had more threads like this come through here on M1S than on hesse/vulcan/blackthorn combined, i'll wager.
vietboy1st
01-13-10, 19:18
I hope your stuff doesn't come from China. I heard those chinese criminal use airsoft parts to build real m4 and ar 15 and sell them around the globe...
I hope your stuff doesn't come from China. I heard those chinese criminal use airsoft parts to build real m4 and ar 15 and sell them around the globe...
stocks, sights, optics, handguards- people use these on cheap ARs, but not action components. i'm sure receivers and receiver parts are totally different in design, as well as construction.
vietboy1st
01-13-10, 19:31
stocks, sights, optics, handguards- people use these on cheap ARs, but not action components. i'm sure receivers and receiver parts are totally different in design, as well as construction.
Yeah, true. But they made it. If they can make airsoft rifle body with metal so i don't think they have problem making real m4 m16 parts illegally.
Damn dude, sorry you got burned.
I've had experiences with shitty firearms (Centruy Arms - :o) so I've made a vow to only buy quality gear from now on. Save a little more and buy a rifle that you know is quality and will last a long time.
vietboy1st
01-13-10, 20:10
so far i heard people said Colt, Bushmater, RRA,DMPS BMC:D
BravoCompanyUSA
01-13-10, 21:11
In the market today there are a number of different versions of the AR15 forward assist.
The milspec version has a pawl machined from tool steel, heat treated, and the cap it press fit, drilled, and pinned.
Most of what you will find may have cast pawls, lack heat treat, and/or press fit caps w/o drill and pin.
The former ususally cost twice a version of the latter.
In the market today there are a number of different versions of the AR15 forward assist.
The milspec version has a pawl machined from tool steel, heat treated, and the cap it press fit, drilled, and pinned.
Most of what you will find may have cast pawls, lack heat treat, and/or press fit caps w/o drill and pin.
The former ususally cost twice a version of the latter.
the forward assist you describe sounds very similar to this (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-AR15-Forward-Assist-Assembly-p/bcm%20forward%20assist%20assembly.htm)... ;)
The Essential Arms lower is good to go. This is a perfectly fine lower. I have two of them and they function flawlessly. I have a Larue Stealth upper mounted on one and have put over 800 rounds through it without a hiccup.
Get a quality upper and you are good to go.
that would depend on the parts, receiver extension, and buffer now wouldn't it. I'm sure the receiver is fine...
Mark Phelps
01-13-10, 21:36
da ****? this is why you DONT buy Model 1 Sales.. we've had more threads like this come through here on M1S than on hesse/vulcan/blackthorn combined, i'll wager.
Was actually meant as a sarcastic joke. I'm not buying rifles from either one ;)
i have been doing some research on a replacement upper seeing the lack of confidence in blackthorn...i know the reputation of bushmaster, colt, RRA, and DPMS. I was curious as to what yall thought about Spikes, Wilson, and Stag...my goal is to acquire one the previous mentioned uppers but i dont want to totally break the bank...
thanks for advice...be back when i hear from the builder as to what blackthorn will or most likely will not do....
i have been doing some research on a replacement upper seeing the lack of confidence in blackthorn...i know the reputation of bushmaster, colt, RRA, and DPMS. I was curious as to what yall thought about Spikes, Wilson, and Stag...my goal is to acquire one the previous mentioned uppers but i dont want to totally break the bank...
thanks for advice...be back when i hear from the builder as to what blackthorn will or most likely will not do....
when you say you "know the reputation of" those manufacturers, you're saying you know:
Bushmaster - not a great reputation
Colt - very good reputation, and considered the "best" box guns available
RRA - not a great reputation
DPMS - considered the worst of the major production manufacturers
right?
Spikes is fairly popular around here... the few times i've bothered to check their specs, they seem decent enough. They jacked their prices up about 150% the moment Obama wont the election, so a lot of people have hard feelings. they're also pretty gimicky, which turns me off pretty bad.
Stag makes, in my opinion, the best of the "home-owner" box guns- they make good parts (CMT), they just don't assemble them all that well. I'd buy a stag over every weapon listed in this post, if i bought box guns.
By wilson, do you mean Wilson Combat? they're extremely over priced home-owner guns... what little specs they release to the public are less than impressive, yet they charge twice what everyone else wants for a fighting gun. supposedly they're very accurate- but reliability is king in fighting guns.
Fighting Carbine priorities:
Reliability
Durability
Accuracy
have you read the technical stickies?
When you say you don't want to break the bank, what is you limit?
vietboy1st
01-14-10, 13:29
Just buy Colt upper receiver. :D
Mark Phelps
01-14-10, 13:44
I've got no beef with RRA.... other than stake your own gas key! Mine came loose after about 15 rounds. After replacing the screws and staking myself, the rest of the rifle has been really great.
How does everyone feel about the new DS Arms ZM4 products? I assembled a carbine for a friend a few weeks ago using their products (but used a CMT bolt carrier group). Function tested fine and everything went together perfectly.
UPDATE, 1/21
Many of you were interested in the response from Blackthorn. Well surprisingly they have apologized and have agreed to replace the entire upper. It will be a few more days before I get it back but if all goes well then I'll be back in business.
Thanks for all the responses.
UPDATE, 1/21
Many of you were interested in the response from Blackthorn. Well surprisingly they have apologized and have agreed to replace the entire upper. It will be a few more days before I get it back but if all goes well then I'll be back in business.
Thanks for all the responses.
i'm not at all surprised they offered to replace it. giving you a refund is what they should do.
UPDATE, 1/21
Many of you were interested in the response from Blackthorn. Well surprisingly they have apologized and have agreed to replace the entire upper. It will be a few more days before I get it back but if all goes well then I'll be back in business.
Thanks for all the responses.
Sell it and get something better. I took a look at Blackthorn's sight. Although I could not find the upper you have, looking at their prices I think you could do better.
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