BCM, LMT, or DD??

[ztf HITMAN]

I know this topic has been beat to death, but which one would you guys choose, and why, when buying a complete rifle? Thanks...

[ztf HITMAN]

BCM 16" mid length w/ DD AR15 Lite Rail :D

Okay...why a mid-length over an M4 type?

[Ak44]

BCM 16" mid length w/ DD AR15 Lite Rail :D

[Jay Cunningham]

Okay...why a mid-length over an M4 type?

There are several threads on this exact topic - please look around a bit.

[ztf HITMAN]

There are several threads on this exact topic - please look around a bit.

I am looking atm. I just don't have too much time to spend on the PC. As I said, I know it's been beat to death, but I wanted a quick and focused consensus. I really wanted to know, of the three mentioned, which would be the wisest choice as a complete rifle to purchase. Thanks, everyone, in advance for the feedback.

[CBTech]

Are you in the NOLA/ Slidell area?

[ztf HITMAN]

Are you in the NOLA/ Slidell area?

Houma

[CBTech]

Houma

I had a 650hp engine built for my 'Cuda over there in Gray at Southland Performance.

P.S. Dont buy from Heberts in Prarieville. They are trying to sell FN Five seveN's for $1500 and my guy in Slidell is letting them go for $800 and some change.

[Dunderway]

I voted BCM, but I would trust any one of them to defend myselt and my family. I own BCM and LMT, and have only heard positive about DD. I would buy the cheapest one that offers your preferred configuration.

[strambo]

DD if the $250 gift card is available...BCM if not.

[SWATcop556]

Voted BCM but, as was said, any will serve your needs. I like giving my hard earned money to guys like Paul who have some of the best CS in the business.

I would not feel under-gunned or ill-equipped with the DD or LMT though. I own LMT and BCM guns and a DD is on my short list still.

[ztf HITMAN]

Thanks guys for the feedback. CBTech: I know about Hebert Guns. Went in once, and looked at the prices. Haven't been back. Jefferson Guns in Metairie has good prices and awesome Customer Service. I know that means a trip across the lake for you, but if you're ever in the area give those guys a visit.

[snafu]

LMT it's what I have,and enjoy.

[sundowner41]

LMT and Colt factory are what I have. I'm partial to DD as well.

[Icculus]

Don't feel bad. Some of the toughest decisions are when there is no wrong answer:D I have a DDM4 and am extremely happy with it. Buddy has an LMT and swears by it. For my second I'm torn between building my own lower (something I really want to do) with a BCM mid upper, BCM mid complete rifle or a BCM mid upper on an LMT lower;) So as you might guess I voted BCM from your list but as others here with far more experience than I have said, I believe you will be well served by any of them.

[Iceberg]

Love my LMT Defender standard w/ SopMod. LMTs are a great deal; shopping around you can put together a LMT defender standard for under a grand, I did. All three of the companies you listed are quality outfits that produce great equipment, so you would probably be happy w/ any of your choices.

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll42/ekbergie/Remington%203200/AR%2015/Hunting009.jpg

[RancidSumo]

I went with other meaning, "whichever of the three you can get cheapest".

[ztf HITMAN]

Thanks everyone. SWATcop1911, who is Paul?

[RancidSumo]

The guy that owns BCM I believe.

[LMTRocks]

I'd go with all 3---but obviously I'm biased. The only thing I can say is I don't shoot 5.56 anymore---all grendel and perhaps even 6.8 one day. That being said, if you're a 6.8 shooter, go LMT MRP. Great platform.

[LIL-COMMANDO]

I dont see compete rifles being sold as BCM!!! I know you can order a BCM lower but there is no complete rifle.?.?:confused:

[ra2bach]

here's what I think. every one of these threads compares BCM to something else. why do you think that is?

[gunner08]

I dont see compete rifles being sold as BCM!!! I know you can order a BCM lower but there is no complete rifle.?.?:confused:

you can order a complete bcm middy from g&r for like 1134, its a complete not upper and lower seperate, even has troy rear

[ztf HITMAN]

here's what I think. every one of these threads compares BCM to something else. why do you think that is?

Seems you have a point...

[Cameron]

I think companies like LMT, BCM and DD all make an excellent quality product so a purchase decision would be based on supply and price for me. I even bought LMT parts from Bravo Company...

Cameron

[USMC03]

You can't go wrong with any of the options you listed. Take a look at rob_s' comparison chart to see how they compare to one another:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA



Then decide what brand has the features that suit your needs and wants the most.







Okay...why a mid-length over an M4 type?

This is a re-post from a Colt M4 (carbine length gas system) vs. BCM mid-lenght discussion, hopefully you'll find the info useful:

****************************************************************


Colt 6920 has a 16" barrel with a carbine-length gas system

BCM Mid-Length has a 16" barrel with a mid-lenght gas system


I own at (3) Colt LE6920's and (3) BCM Mid-Lengths and have used both at work, in training classes, run and gun rifle matches, etc.

All (3) of my Colt LE6920's have had their barrels changed to Colt 14.5" SOCOM barrels.


I like a 16" barrel when it has a mid-length gas system.

I do not like a 16" barrel with a carbine length gas system (same gas system that is on the military M4 carbine)

If I have to run a carbine length gas system I want a 14.5" barrel (and I permanently attach a longer flash hider to make the overall length 16" so I don't have to mess with NFA paperwork).

The 3 most common type of gas systems are:

1) Carbine length gas system (same length as the M4 carbine) and takes a 7.0" rail or handguard.

2) Mid-length gas system - which is 2" longer than the carbine length gas system (thus the front sight housing and gas port are 2" forward of where they are on a carbine length gas system) and takes a 9.0" rail or handguard.

3) Rifle lenght gas system (same gas system on the AR15 or M16A2 / M16A4 with 20" barrel) and takes a 12.0" rail or handguard.



16" barrel with MID-LENGTH gas system:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/v/vspfiles/photos/BCM-URG-MID-16-2.jpg

16" barrel with CARBINE gas system:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/v/vspfiles/photos/BCM-URG-M4-16-2.jpg

(pictures property of Bravo Company USA, used with permission)

As you look at both pics, pay close attention to the distance between the front of the receiver and the front sight tower. You can see the mid-length upper has a longer gas system and the front sight housing is 2" forward as to the location of the carbine length gas system.


When talking about the different gas systems on a 16" barrel, think about the distance from the gas hole to the end of the barrel. The longer that the bullet is in the barrel after the bullet passes the gas hole, the more gas that is getting pushed back through the gas tube and back into the gas key. The end result is a sharper recoil impulse.

This is why on a 16" barrel, a mid-length gas system is slightly smoother than a carbine length gas system.

The distance from the gas hole to the end of the A2 flash hider on a 16" barrel with carbine-length gas system is approximatley 9.5".

The distance from the gas hole to the end of the A2 flash hider on a 20" barrel with rifle length gas system is approximatley 7.5"

The distance from the gas hole to the end of the A2 flash hider on a 16" barrel with mid-length gas system is approximatley 7.5"

The distance from the gas hole to the end of the A2 flash hider on a 14.5" barrel with carbine-length gas system is approximatley 7.5"


Something to note. The 20" w/ rifle length gas system, 16" w/ mid-length gas system, and 14.5" w/ carbine length gas system all have the same amount of dwell time (distance from the gas hole to the end of the barrel).

The 16" barrel with the carbine length gas system has a dwell time that is approximtely 1.5" longer. Thus it's pumping more gas into the bolt carrier key, forcing it back hard, etc. It's harder on parts over the long term and you'll feel slightly more recoil impulse. Not a huge thing, but after shooting all 3 side by side on numerous occasions, I see no need to own a 16" barrel with a carbine length gas system. I own 18 AR's .... with the exception of 2 short barreled rifles, ALL of them are 14.5" carbine length gas sytems with long flash hiders permanently attached or 16" mid-lengths.

Sorry to get so technical, but it's the only way to explain it.



Here are some other overlooked advantages of the Mid-Lenght over the carbine-length AR15 for LEO's:

-Mid-Length has a longer iron sight radius, which aids in accuracy. If you have ever shot a 20" AR15 rifle with iron sights and a 16" carbine with iron sights side by side at distance you will notice that it's easier to get more accurate hits with the 20" rifle. This may not and advantage for all LEO's, but there are still many departments out there that don't allow optics for their patrol rifles.

-Mid-Length has a slightly smoother recoil impulse that I discussed above.

-The Mid-Length handguard is longer and some taller shooters will find more comfortable. Shooters who use a compention style grip will find more comfortalbe (many competition shooters hold further out on the fore end, and some use techniques like pointing their index finger in the same direction as the muzzle). Many tall shooter or shooters who use a competition type grip find the that Carbine-Length handguards are too short. Here is an example of the grip that I use:

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Pat%20Rogers%202009/DPP_0026-2.jpg

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Pat%20Rogers%202009/DPP_0039-1.jpg

Many guys are starting to figure out what 3 gunners and competition shooters have known for a long time. The further you can get your hand out on the fore end the easier it is to "drive" the gun. The mid-length helps you get your hand further out on the fore end.


-The longer handguard on the Mid-Length aids in resting the barricade on a piece of cover. This is often overlooked by many LEO's.

Many times in a law enforcement setting when a carbine is deployed the Patrol Officer will take up a position of cover on a perimeter or while covering a person or location (ie. barricaded gunman call, drawn out felony stop, alarm call and suspects are still inside the buisness or residence, etc)

While taking up a position of cover we often rest our carbine on a piece of cover (vehicle, fence, concrete wall, tree, post, etc.). The piece of cover often times can serve a dual purpose and can be used as a stable shooting platform.

Think about the shapes of vehicles and other objects you might use as cover as you look at the pic below. If you had a Carbine-Length handguard, would you be able to get your barrel on the piece of cover?

http://www.demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2007.07/small/D461_9051_img.jpg



This shows how a Mid-Leght handguard and a 20 round magazine can be an asset in certain situations (the shooter is using a 10.0" rail, but if he wasn't running a Magpul Ranger plate on his 20 round magazine, he could have easily gotten a 9.0 rail onto the barricade in this situation):
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Monthly%20Rifle%20Matches/DPP_0016.jpg

Even if it's a brick wall, note how much easier it is to get the Mid-Length handguard on the piece of cover:
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Monthly%20Rifle%20Matches/DPP_0024copy.jpg


As you can see a 2" longer handguard / gas system of the Mid-Length has a lot of advantages over the shorter Carbine-Length gas system.


A couple weight comparisons:

LMT 14.5" M4 carbine:
8 lbs 6.0 oz - with light, batteries, VCAS padded sling:
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/LMT%20SWAT%20Gun/DPP_0268.jpg

BCM 16" standard Mid-Length w/ Larue 9.0 and Magpul CTR stock:
8 lbs 4.2 oz - with light (Surefire x300 in LaRue mount on the 3 o'clock rail), batteries, VCAS padded sling:
http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/USMC03_photos/Bravo%20Company%20Mid-Length/IMG_1873002_copy.jpg



Good info posted here (with pics) of the BCM Mid-Length with the 9.0 rail (standard barrel), went through 2 carbine courses and other training this year. Pat Rogers has the same BCM Mid-Leght (standard barrel) that has just shy of 29,000 rounds through it. Lots info and pics:

http://www.03designgroup.com/photo/bcm-complete-ar15-upper-and-lower-receivers/icon-bcm-upper-lower.jpg
03designgroup | BCM Complete AR15 Upper and Lower Receivers http://demigodllc.com/icon/extwh3.png (http://www.03designgroup.com/reviews/bcm-complete-ar15-upper-and-lower-receivers) <--------- click this link



Hope this helps

[6933]

Colt.

[Ricardus]

BCM <> Colt
DD
LMT

[ztf HITMAN]

USMC03....Thanks for the thorough info on the difference and advantages of a ML system over a carbine length system. I appreciate the insight. BCM seems to be the way to go...

[SWATcop556]

Thanks everyone. SWATcop1911, who is Paul?

Paul is the wizard behind the curtain at BCM. He makes the magic happen.

[ztf HITMAN]

Thanks everyone for the input. I just ordered my 16" Mid Length BCM Upper and will send in the paperwork for the lower.

[steve-oh]

I don't think you'll go wrong with any of those 3.