View Full Version : New SIG Classics: Enhanced Ergonomics Models
SIG has finally announced their new "E2" guns, rumors of which have been floating around for quite a while. They'll first be available as 9mm P226 and P229 models.
Smaller one-piece grips, shorter reach and reset of the trigger, and redesigned controls for better compatibility with modern grip styles are the major changes.
A more detailed report is posted at my site (http://pistol-training.com/archives/2343).
http://pistol-training.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/P226EE-large.jpg
(pistol pictured does not have the optional "improved ergonomics" slide release lever)
Good stuff. I really wish I could make it to shot show to see what's new and upcoming. Nonetheless, Todd, you seem to know everyone who's anyone. Always enjoy your site and your first hand knowledge on new stuff coming out.
-Carlo
Will the new slide release lever be compatible with current P226's and P229's?
Thanks!
Eagerly waiting for a detailed review with more pictures ;)
A higher traction grip was long due.
How is the one piece grip retention system?
What are currently the differences between the P226 and P229, besides barrel+slide lenght?
Do they take the same magazines, or at least the cross section of the mags is the same?
Have the reinforcements of the P229 been transfered to current P226s, and can both be expected to have similar round count longevity?
I've not handled one of the E2 guns yet and won't until next week at SHOT. Some of the changes (improved slide release, standardizing the SRT) have been in the pipeline for quite a while.
Dammit, Todd!
Just when I think I have my Sig inventory setup how I like it you go and throw this out. :p
Seriously though.....I'm really glad to see that Sig has actually done something to IMPROVE on the classic Sig line-up. Not fruity rainbow colors, or beaver tails that are too low to be useful. Looks like I'll be setting some more gun money aside to get one of these new 229s/226s. If they are going to make the 229 have different external dimensions, then they need to designate it as a different number so holsters and accessories don't get confused.
This is interesting. I assume that SIG is retaining the aluminum frame. Will there be different sized grips?
I commented on your blog already but I really like the way it looks from these pictures. Could potentially be a very nice gun for midget handed people like me.
I'm with the posters above. My shooters are typically P228's with Hogue G10 grips (for reduced backstrap), SRT, Short Trigger. Looks like I'm getting that in what's likely to be a less expensive package.
N
My question is: Hopefully they've reduced the grit that seems to introduced on guns models with the SRT. I'm not sure why that seems so difficult, but the SRT sear/safety seems to add a lot of grit to the trigger pull.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-12-10, 12:22
Make it in an SAO version, and now we are talking.
Many ladies, youth, and IBOs will like these.
I wouldn't mind a P228 E2.
with a one piece grip, does this imply interchangeable for size???
They went back to two mags after everyone complained.
uhh...what? My post just ended up above FromMyColdDeadHand's post...
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-12-10, 13:08
"Both guns will come with three magazines per pistol"
Hasn't Sig been shipping one mag per gun lately? I guess they were saving up.
gtmtnbiker98
01-12-10, 13:10
"Both guns will come with three magazines per pistol"
Hasn't Sig been shipping one mag per gun lately? I guess they were saving up.
They stopped the one mag policy months ago, come to think of it, it only lasted three months in total.
Three mags per gun is so much smarter. The incremental cost increase to the manufacturer is small ($5-7) but the value to the purchaser is four times that or more.
RAM Engineer
01-12-10, 14:15
I wonder if they fixed the accessory rail profile to make it true 1913, like they did with the P250. I can't tell from the picture, but it doesn't look like it.
Some people like SIG's because they have aluminum frames.
If they put a wonder finish on all the small parts and inside the bore of the barrel, I'd buy two.
A SAO version would also be awesome.
The Dumb Gun Collector
01-12-10, 18:34
I like it! I always liked the SIG's grip. This will probably make it even nicer.
I have a POW P229 DAO .40 S&W that I bought in 1999. In 1999 it was a great pistol, I still enjoy shooting it. I think it says a lot about SIG that they are releasing the second set of smaller grips for the "classic" pistols in a year, rather than announcing a striker-fired plastic framed pistol in three sizes to effectively compete in the marketplace against Glock and S&W's M&P.
Alpha Sierra
01-12-10, 20:27
I hope these E2 grips are backwards compatible.
I hope these E2 grips are backwards compatible.
Doubtful. The standard P226/P229 frame doesn't have attachment points for a clip-on grip.
variablebinary
01-12-10, 23:37
Now if only SIG would start selling guns without rails, and bring back the 228, all with the new enhancements
That is exactly what SIG does not need to do. They make too many niche pistols that only compete against other SIGs. SIG need a pistol capable of competing in the marketplace. SIG needs large agency orders; not onesie, twosies sales if they hope to survive past 2012.
Now if only SIG would start selling guns without rails, and bring back the 228, all with the new enhancements
What other popular service handgun comes without rails?
As for the P228, if the P229 E2 has the same slide contour what would be the point? The P228 slide is more maintenance intensive and more prone to corrosion.
That is exactly what SIG does not need to do. They make too many niche pistols that only compete against other SIGs. SIG need a pistol capable of competing in the marketplace. SIG needs large agency orders; not onesie, twosies sales if they hope to survive past 2012.
Addressing hand size, reset, and grip issues are all things that will be useful in LE/contract sales.
Todd, I agree but a 30 year old pistol design just isn't going to cut it anymore, no matter how many times they polish it up and add a new gizmo. SIG P Series are analogous to Ford still trying to sell the 1995 Taurus in today's market with only a change in hubcaps. SIG can make a great pistol, I hope that they can find there way to do it.
Howso?
QC issues aside, what deficiencies are there?
An argument can be made for a polymer frame over an aluminum one, but I've seen too many aluminum-framed guns go well past 50,000 rounds to think it's a major issue. And some people prefer a metal frame.
Internally, the design is proven to be reliable and accurate.
Where the P220-series loses out is on the ergonomic side, and that is what the E2 seeks to rectify.
It is a half step in the right direction. for their sake I hope it is enough for them to hold onto a sliver of the volume sales segment.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-13-10, 02:11
Todd, I agree but a 30 year old pistol design just isn't going to cut it anymore, no matter how many times they polish it up and add a new gizmo. SIG P Series are analogous to Ford still trying to sell the 1995 Taurus in today's market with only a change in hubcaps. SIG can make a great pistol, I hope that they can find there way to do it.
In 70 years it will reach 1911 status.
Sig still hates lefties. Too bad as I would love to have a P220 E2.
Todd, I agree but a 30 year old pistol design just isn't going to cut it anymore, no matter how many times they polish it up and add a new gizmo.
Just as an aside, the design of the Glock is 28 years old (1982).
John_Wayne777
01-13-10, 07:39
Thanks for making me feel like a fossil, Mark.
Sig still hates lefties. Too bad as I would love to have a P220 E2.
Other then the slide stop lever, a Sig are very much lefty compatible. The decocker it's a critical part, so you don't need quick access to it IMO.
Todd, you mention the SRT will be standard on the E2. With that in mind, read #1 on this link.
http://www.totalautomation.us/sigcorner.htm (http://www.totalautomation.us/sigcorner.htm)
or just read this:
Taken from Total Automation's website:
1) Quick-Trigger Reset TM (QTR) and SA Take-up Reduction Hammer Modification. This modification allows quicker next-shot reset of the trigger leaving the firing pin safety block intact and essentially eliminates trigger take-up after reset in SA. When you go to pick up the trigger for the follow-up shot, it is "right there" with very little additional travel to engage the hammer and sear. The Sig SRT can compromise the firing pin safety block, defeating an important factory-installed safety mechanism. This package is recommended for both Concealed Carry and Competition. (part-only modification to Safety Lever and Hammer: $75.00)
My question is about the two sections of text I made bold. Is the Total Automation system a better mousetrap or libelous advertising?
What Gerry is saying is true, SRT doesn't reactivate the firing pin safety block until you release the trigger all the way to the single action resting point. So it's not libel, but I think that the issue is overblown, at least since Sig beefed up the engagement surface.
Other then the slide stop lever, a Sig are very much lefty compatible. The decocker it's a critical part, so you don't need quick access to it IMO.
I agree. The magazine release is reversible if you don't like using your index finger, I decock my Sigs left handed all the time in qualifications with my index finger, and if you're using your slide release lever for anything other than administrative purposes then you should probably change your shooting habits.
All that being said, I guess it wouldn't hurt to make the pistol more ambitextrous provided that it doesn't sacrifice reliablity and durability.
I also agree with Todd on bringing back the P228. Why bring back a two-piece carbon steel slide that must have roll pins changed out often and requires excessive maintenance? I had no problems with my stamped 226 when I worked in Arizona, but maintenance became a progressive hassle as I transfered further east from Tennessee, to Georgia, to Florida. A stainless slide is a blessing while working the beaches and marine patrol......along with Sig's nickel magazine release, take down lever, decocking lever, and slide stop lever. Another officer uses a P228, and he has to run steel wool over the slide almost every day he patrols to get the rust off. Several others have had custom finishes on their stamped slide Sigs, but they are still experiencing rust problems where there is holster wear or other wear points.
I don't know who "Total Automation" is, but they're full of crap. The SRT certainly doesn't compromise the firing pin block. In fact, it was developed specifically because a well known gunsmith had been touting a method that did compromise the gun's safety and even had his method published in SIG's quarterly magazine. The engineering department looked at it, rejected it, and insisted that the marketing department issue a retraction in the next issue. Instead, the SRT was developed.
The SRT does work by keeping the firing pin block disengaged throughout the trigger stroke, admittedly.
Normally, a non-SRT SIG's firing pin block drops down (into "safe" position) as the slide cycles after a shot is fired. This requires the trigger bar to move forward far enough not only to re-engage the sear but far enough to get ahead of the firing pin block so it can be disengaged (into "fire" position) again. This leads to a moderately long reset.
With the SRT, the firing pin block is kept in the fire position throughout the side's cycle. So the trigger doesn't need to move forward any farther than the sear reset point.
Does keeping the firing pin block disengaged during the slide cycling somehow compromise safety? Of course not. The gun can't discharge while the slide was cycling. If the gun is dropped (which is what the firing pin block is intended for) the trigger moves forward of the firing pin block engagement point and the firing pin block re-engages.
The only fantasy situation in which the SRT could cause an AD that wouldn't happen with a non-SRT SIG:
pistol is fired
slide cycles
shooter holds the trigger back rather than resetting it to the sear point
something strikes the gun hard enough, at just the right angle, to discharge a round but not hard enough to knock the gun out of the shooter's hand
I had one of the very first SRT prototype sets and it worked great. The SRT really transforms the SIG in terms of shootability at speed. If I were going to use a SIG again, the SRT would be a must-have feature.
IMO, worrying about not havind the firing pin safety "on" while firing is ridiculous...
The FP safety is a drop-everything else fails safety, not a device to magically keep fools from shooting someone or themselves.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-13-10, 10:18
Damn, no more shooting, then pistol whipping people with my finger not having the trigger reset. Not very ninja.
-That Automation guy is not implying that the 'compromise' of the firing pin block is a long-term thing. Like integrating the SRT will cause the FPB to eventually fail?
As someone who hates Sig ergonomics, I think these look great.
Thanks for making me feel like a fossil, Mark.
Yeah, when I did the math, it kinda shocked me too.
threeheadeddog
01-13-10, 18:37
I was 2 in 1982...
I am a recent convert to the sig(though not a cool aid drinker). I dont see the real "too old of a design" aspect of it. I agree that the slide stop lever is not in a good modern position, but otherwise there is nothing that the sig cant do that other handguns can, and in most cases it will last just as long with just as few stoppages.
I switched from 1911's and CZ's(cocked and locked) to the sig. I can say that in comparison my first shot out of the holster is significantly faster(from 1.6ish to 1.4ish) due to the great advice of the Langdon article and the DA first pull. I always had a bit of reluctance and honestly fear of the trigger on tuned 2lb.ish SA guns out of the holster. I find that the press out with a DA pull speeds me up, your miles may vary. My slidelock reloads are also slightly more natural though not necessarly faster. I have not seen any decline in any area, though it did take some time to get my splits back down to what was normal for me. I made the switch mostly because I was tired of dealing with "tuned" guns, but I am not a fan of plastic frames.
I agree the gun is in many was the exact opposite of the 1911 which is the favorate model for competition shooters and the bar in terms of shootable handguns for good reason. The current incarnation of the 1911 with all the bells and wistles is designed for the shooter first and then made reliable. While the sig (with the unfortunate need of a * noting if proper qc was used:( ) was designed reliability first in an era where people didnt know how to shoot properly by todays standards and as such is a reluctant fit into the more modern technique. Having said that the gun is completely capable of performing at or near the same standard an individual is used to with their current platforms.
Geeze, I was 9 in '82. I'm a recent convert to the Signess from 1911s. Yea, don't buy into the too old design theory. I really think alot of change is for changes sake these days. Thinking about picking up a Glock, just cuz. However the S&W M&P has been intriguing me lately. I'm perfectly happy w/my W.German SIGs. The reports of the American ones make me nervous to say the least. I will check out the E2s though, esp. the 229 if it went back to the 228 profile, I think the current 229 is fugly.:(
I will be curious to see what crimson trace does with this. I just shot a 229 in .40 & loved it. This should make it have the same balance as the 228 taking a little weight off the top, which would be even better. Now, if they could just get their quality control back up.
I'm interested to see if Sig will address some of the quality control issues that has crept into their pistol lines with this new model. Only time will tell...
I will check out the E2s though, esp. the 229 if it went back to the 228 profile, I think the current 229 is fugly.:(
We'll see if Sig Sauer USA can execute the change well. The whole reason for the creation of the P229 with the more robust slide was to handle the heavier recoil of the .40S&W. If they could have kept the 228 slide dimensions, I'm sure they would have done so to make holsters and accessories easier to mesh between the two platforms.
The P229 design has proven to be exceptional.....at least in the .40 and .357. Many P229s(pre 2005 and post 2005) have gone to 100k rounds in Federal service.
I think Sig needs to tweek the 9mm versions though to make them more slim and have more capacity.
I'm interested to see if Sig will address some of the quality control issues that has crept into their pistol lines with this new model. Only time will tell...
As Sig has encountered problems, they have done a good job of correcting them. They tried making frames in the USA with cheaper materials after 2004......it was a mistake so they had them made in Germany once again. After experiencing problems with going to a new supplier for take down levers, they fixed that problem as well.
The last Sig I bought was a P229 .40S&W in 2008. I currently have about 30k rounds through it with only about 3-4 malfuctions due to poor quality reloads. Otherwise it has run like a thoroughbred. I'm running it through the 2000rd pistol test and have 2350rds through it. I'm going for 3k rounds before I clean it.......not a single problem yet. The only quality control issue I have come across with this pistol has been the plastic factory grips. They are a new style with poor fit. I found some older P229 grips, stuck them on there, and they fit perfectly. So, hopefully Sig will address the fitting of their new factory grips.
I do carry a P229 .40 that was part of the govt DHS purchase in 2004. The other officers that carry this same pistol in my region have been very impressed with it. Our P229s have actually been more reliable than any of our other Sigs in inventory........even our W. German P228s and P226 9mms.
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