How many rounds is enough?

[Business_Casual]

As highlighted in the thread in the Pistol Forum on the XDm compact:


anything over 13 is cool with me.

So how many rounds is enough for the typical CCW? Police? Soldier?

Ken Hackathorn speaks of 1-3 assailants. Others speak of the "average" number of shots in a gunfight. I know what makes me comfortable. What are your thoughts?

Mine are: G19 with 15 rounds, spare 17 mag with 16 rounds. I always download Glock mags per LAV.

M_P

[Zhurdan]

I carry at least two spare magazines (1911). Why? because if there's a malfunction/misfeed/etc. a reload may be part of the solution. I probably won't have a need for 29 rounds (1 8rnd in the gun and 2 10rnd spares) at any given time, but it's conceivable that I'll need a spare magazine to either refuel the pistol or to solve a malfunction. It kind of makes me shudder when people don't carry a spare magazine/reload.

[Erk1015]

I'm somewhat confused by the question. Are you asking about handgun capacity, like a 1911 (8 rounds) vs a glock (15 or so) or are you asking how much ammo to carry total (in the gun and extra mags), or is it how many rounds to put down a threat?

I'm assuming the second question based on Zhurdans' response, for me I carry at least one extra mag (total of 31 rounds), two whenever possible (46 rounds). That's mostly just because I realize that I'm the unluckiest person I've ever met and I want to be prepared for the worst. It makes me a little bit happier knowing that I have one less problem to have to think about in a fight.

[David Thomas]

I'm somewhat confused by the question. Are you asking about handgun capacity, like a 1911 (8 rounds) vs a glock (15 or so) or are you asking how much ammo to carry total (in the gun and extra mags), or is it how many rounds to put down a threat?

I read the post as asking how many total rounds do you carry and in what capacity, i.e. as a leo, ccw, etc...

For ccw I carry 16 rounds of 45 acp for a 1911, and 5 in a S&W 442 BUG.
8 in the 1911 (7 round mag + one in the chamber) plus one spare 8 round mag.

Is that enough? depends on the situation.

[Business_Casual]

Erk1015,

What is your pistol's capacity and what process did you follow to determine that was "enough" ammunition available to be "adequate" for carry? The point is to examine how you did the mental exercise and your rational decision making process. Perhaps someone will be able to share something from which we can learn. But whatever you want to post is fine as long as it is relevant.

M_P

[David Thomas]

It kind of makes me shudder when people don't carry a spare magazine/reload.


I never understood the logic behind carrying a gun with no spare mag, either.

[ToddG]

The capacity and carriage issues have to be looked at separately. Having 100 rounds on you in nifty 2-round magazines isn't as good as having two 50-round magazines.

m_p alluded to the most important factor, which is personal comfort. You have to do the math:

How many BGs do you think you may need to deal with?
How many hits do you think you may need to deal with each?
How many rounds do you think you'll need to fire (under stress, while moving & being shot at) to get that number of hits?

My magic number is 13. And because I'd rather not be reloading while rounds are incoming, I'd like at least 13 (12+1) in the gun as a starting condition.

FWIW, my math is two guys, 5 hits, 75% hit rate. Thirteen is close enough. Of course, that's all just a bunch of guesswork which is why it's a matter of personal comfort rather than science. Could it be more than two attackers? Of course. Could they need more than five hits before they've been "stopped to death?" Sure. Could my hit rate be less than 75%? Absolutely.

It's almost enough to make you think being in a gunfight isn't a sure thing...

edited to add: And I always carry a spare mag.

[JSantoro]

I think less of how many rounds I have so much as I try to recognize that I'm not an arsenal ship, and that I need to do some critical thinking somewhere around the halfway mark of my on-person supply. I.e., I need to think about resupply/assault through/hide/skedaddle/sob uncontrollably, instead of getting stuck on the first iteration of A in the OODA loop.

Whatever your load-out, be it your everyday concealment crap or a full assault load, think about how long it takes you to go rounds-complete with it if you shoot nonstop all in one big noise orgy.

Concealment (to me)= 11 in the gun, 20rnds in 2 spares. Call it 25-40sec to expend.

Assault laod = NLT 5 carbine mags, more likely 7; M9 with total of 4 mags. Call it 3 minutes, tops.

How much ammo you carry depends first on your gun(s), your mode of dress, and how much you CAN carry and still go about your day-to-day stuff. You don't get to decide how many adversaries you confront, the Fickle Finger of Fate will do that for you, unbidden. Ergo, the rub to me is not getting sucked into the tube of simply shooting by the time the initial reoad is done. Something else besides trigger-pulling needs to start at that point, regardless of whether or not you're Ultraviolet and pulling rounds from a pair pocket alternate dimensions attached to your wrists.

[ToddG]

Whatever your load-out, be it your everyday concealment crap or a full assault load, think about how long it takes you to go rounds-complete with it if you shoot nonstop all in one big noise orgy.

16rd in the gun, 15rd reload, including concealment draw & slidelock reload: ~10sec

edited to add: That's assuming no movement with all hits on an 8" circle at 7yd.

[MarshallDodge]

Rule #1. Have a gun and know how to use it.

I carry a 1911 with an 8 round mag and a spare for a total of 16 rounds. There are times when I carry my little Kahr with 6 rounds and a spare mag. The main reason I carry a spare mag is in case of a malfunction, not necessarily for more ammo.

If you want to carry more then that's alright by me, just never let me hear that you were in a gunfight where 80 shots were fired and there were only two hits on the bad guy. ;)

[Erk1015]

Erk1015,

What is your pistol's capacity and what process did you follow to determine that was "enough" ammunition available to be "adequate" for carry? The point is to examine how you did the mental exercise and your rational decision making process. Perhaps someone will be able to share something from which we can learn. But whatever you want to post is fine as long as it is relevant.

M_P

My apologies

[Business_Casual]

No need to apologize.

M_P

[John_Wayne777]

Ah, yes...the concept of "enough". It's entirely dependent upon the situation you face.

My personal definition of "enough" is generally a good serviceable handgun loaded with reliable ammunition and one reload. From a statistical point of view, that arrangement will handle the overwhelming majority of problems one would encounter in day to day life inside CONUS. The addition of a second magazine and possibly a backup gun are, in my opinion, a good idea and I regularly pack the extra mag and the BUG...but it isn't absolutely necessary, IMO. (I'll note that my view of the BUG thing is changing the more I keep encountering stories of people being hit and unable to use their primary hand.) Statistically speaking, the extra equipment is probably overkill.

...but I have yet to see overkill portrayed as a bad thing by a gunfight survivor. I don't recall meeting someone who put some miscreant down with a single shot from a hicap pistol complaining that they had too much ammo in the gun for that fight and resolving to carry a flintlock pistol from now on since one shot is all they need.

On the other hand, there's the reality that much of our life does not involve shooting people in the face...and the fact that it's considered socially unacceptable to be visibly in possession of a firearm. So that means we have to carry what we can conceal. Given the level of threat we face (on average) in the US what we can realistically conceal is usually "enough" to handle most issues that will arise.

So I would place the definition of "enough" to be that magic point of compromise between what we would absolutely love to have in a gunfight (AC130 and a Ranger Battalion) and what we would like to carry around day to day. (Nothing bigger than a stick of Trident) The definition would also be informed by the realization that the stuff we can carry with us day to day can only handle so much problem.

Using myself as an example, with an M&P 9mm loaded with 17 in the magazine and 1 in the pipe plus two spares of 17 each plus the BUG plus the speedloader for the BUG I have a total of 62 rounds on me. I can dump 62 shots pretty darn quick if sufficiently motivated, but odds are that either I'll be dead or the threat will be over long before I hit that point. There is only so much of a problem that I can solve by myself with a 9mm handgun, and the odds are that the extra spare mag and the BUG are overkill for that size problem. If they aren't, then it's probably the sort of problem you need a team of dudes with body armor and machine guns to fix. If I have the capacity to recognize that I'm not capable of solving the problem and I'm simultaneously blessed with an avenue of escape...and I don't have anything more important than survival to accomplish...using that avenue of escape would be wise. Now I may not have a choice in whether or not I'm actually trying to solve a problem too big for my current situation...but that's life.

[David Blinder]

Not the be all, end all of determining "enough" but back in the early 1990's, the Police Policy Studies Council looked at police shootings in Portland over a four year period. If I recall correctly, when 3 or less shots were fired, 12% died as a result but when 4 or more were fired, lethality was 75%. Of those fatally shot, the avg number of hits was about 9.

I guess "enough" depends on what your ultimate objective is but based on the above stats, the miss rate and expected number of customers that can be served, it seems like a rounds available count in the 20's is reasonable.

[glocktogo]

While I feel more comfortable with my G-23 and a spare (26 rounds) I sometimes carry a PM-9 and one spare (14 rounds). As important to me as total ammo supply is one's capability with the platform. I will tailor my tactics to suit my capabilites at the moment.

If you're prone to entering areas where multiple assailant attacks or riots happening, you'd obviously want more ammo/larger gun. If you only frequent areas where there's little to no criminal activity and rarely ever any attacks, you might feel comfortable with a J Frame and a speed strip.

[ToddG]

While I feel more comfortable with my G-23 and a spare (26 rounds) I sometimes carry a PM-9 and one spare (14 rounds). As important to me as total ammo supply is one's capability with the platform. I will tailor my tactics to suit my capabilites at the moment.

So are you saying:


When you're carrying the low-capacity 9mm, you'll consciously fire fewer rounds and/or fire more slowly than when you have your high-capacity .40? Or,
When you're carrying your high-capacity .40 there are places you'll go or things you'll do that you wouldn't if you only had the low-capacity 9mm?

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

42

I worry about these older studies, almost 20 years-old now, and how much they mean now. It seems now when the bullets start to fly, their are a lot more frequent flyers out there. I also think the highest level threats are changing from a (I)stick-up/street crime to (II)Active Shooters and call me a crazy but more (III)Maj. Hasan's on the horizon. The chances are that you still will never have to draw your CCW and if you do it will be a personal assault situation - but the possibility of multiple BG encounter is not non-existant anymore. But that has to be balanced with comfort and concealability. I don't know what the answer is, I'm still geared up for Level I than anything else. 1+8+8+17 rounds in a HK P7. I'm looking at hi-cap solutions and do carry my P226 1+18+20+20=59 when it is cold and I'm wearing bulky tops and I cinch my belt to Calista Flockheart levels.

Somethin' better than nuttin'.

Just thinking about it, really the fastest reload is not your back-up gun it is having your spouse be armed also. Double the bullets is good, double the barrels and eyes is better.


Riverine


Whatever your load-out, be it your everyday concealment crap or a full assault load, think about how long it takes you to go rounds-complete with it if you shoot nonstop all in one big noise orgy.

Did you have a side of Shakespeare with your Wheaties?

[glocktogo]

So are you saying:


When you're carrying the low-capacity 9mm, you'll consciously fire fewer rounds and/or fire more slowly than when you have your high-capacity .40? Or,
When you're carrying your high-capacity .40 there are places you'll go or things you'll do that you wouldn't if you only had the low-capacity 9mm?


A little of both actually. If I'm carrying the PM9 and I'm accosted by a single lethal threat, I'll most likely still Bill Drill his ass as quickly as I can make the hits.

If my OODA loop says I'm facing multiple threats and my tactical position isn't superior, I'm gonna be very judicious with the PM9. I won't have as many immediate rounds to bring to bear and after the first guy gets hit, I'm pretty sure the rest will become moving targets. Not the best place for a 7 round compact with two rounds sent already.

I'm a big believer in the division of thirds. When contact is made, expend a third of your ammo to suppress the enemy. If that doesn't have an immediate effect, expend an additional third. If that doesn't work, use the final third to break contact. Whether that's what you have in the gun or your total rounds on person is dependent on the circumstances at the time. I'm only going to count on whats in the gun unless I can get to real cover from which to reload. If you're carrying a 5 shot J Frame, that ain't much.

Further compounding the issue for me is being LE and having a duty to respond if possible. I wouldn't feel comfortable going on the offensive with a small, low capacity gun. That's why I prefer to carry as much gun as possible, even when it's not convenient. Not everyone is Jim Cirillo with a J Frame.

[tpd223]

Ammo equals options, so does a BUG.

Analogy time; The best SF medic or trauma surgeon in the world is hardly better off when working in a ditch equipped with a Swiss Army Knife and a hanky than your average EMT or Combat Lifesaver.

Give those guys an equipped ambulance and they easily outperform the EMT guy, but the medic and surgeon are still on equal terms, get the patient into an ER and the surgeon starts kick the medic's ass in ability to get things done.


WTF am I going on about? Well, as much as we espouse mindset, and for good reason, in many cases training can be negated, or at least severely hindered by lack of equipment.

I carry a G17 or G19 off-duty (most similar to the situation anyone with a CCW permit would be in, to keep it apples vs apples), normally two 19 round reloads and a BUG, with a reload or two if it's a J frame.

I am not the world's greatest shooter or tactician, but I have trained with some of those guys. Being an LE firearms instructor, a 17 year SWAT guy, active shooter and low-light instructor, etc., I think helps to make the amount of ammo I carry less silly as I would actually have the tactical acumen to use these tools under duress if I am at the mall with my daughters when an active-shooter shows up, or whatever scenario you can imagine past the one mugger theme.

That being said, if I had to choose between having a reload and having a BUG I'd go with having the second gun every time.

[Failure2Stop]

Todd's posts here are in line with my views, so I won't linger on that aspect.

My little contribution is this:
The first time you have to shoot someone at close range, you will probably only stop shooting the threat when the gun goes to slide-lock. Plans about percentage of capacity or a set number of shots expended per target tend to go right out the window when something is trying to kill you.

There are ways to manage that response, some beneficially and some detrimentally, so what I am pointing out simply is what it is.

[John_Wayne777]

If my OODA loop says I'm facing multiple threats and my tactical position isn't superior, I'm gonna be very judicious with the PM9.


What Todd is trying to point out is that unless you are naturally a steely-eyed killer, under the stress of life and death you won't be judicious with the PM9. A bunch of gunfight research shows that the predominant instinct people have when involved in a close range fight is to point the weapon at the threat and pull the trigger as fast as humanly possible. It's unlikely that as you draw to fire on a dude 3 yards away who is trying to kill you that you'll be thinking "OK, I have my PM9 so I'm only going to fire X shots here."

[Von Rheydt]

A long story but it gets there. I knew a couple of guys from a team involved in an incident in Uganda back in the 80's. They were providing Close Protection and security for the Brit embassy.

One day one of the local tribal gangs takes it upon itself to kill some members of a rival tribal gang. The house where this happened was next to the embassy. So when they were finished they decided to hop over the security fencing and have some fun with the embassy staff.

The duty BG locked everyone in the safe room, threw in the key after them and set himself up in a fire position to wait for the rest of the team to arrive. Shots were exchanged and eventually the team arrived. They used pre-planned approach routes offering maximum cover and concealment. They then engaged the AK and panga wielding locals effectively destroying them.

To the point of how many rounds is enough. One of the guys had a panga wielding, ganja doped tribesman rush him. He pulled his Browning 9mm (pre Sig and Glock days) and fired 13 shots at less than 20 feet. He stated, over beers, that the tribesman stopped about ten feet from him, looked down at his chest, dropped the panga, turned and ran. They found the guys body around half a mile down the road from the embassy ......... with 13 entry holes in his chest.

True story, I worked with two of the team after it happened and it is written up in a book by Tony Geraghty called The Bullet Catchers.

So how many rounds is enough?

[glocktogo]

What Todd is trying to point out is that unless you are naturally a steely-eyed killer, under the stress of life and death you won't be judicious with the PM9. A bunch of gunfight research shows that the predominant instinct people have when involved in a close range fight is to point the weapon at the threat and pull the trigger as fast as humanly possible. It's unlikely that as you draw to fire on a dude 3 yards away who is trying to kill you that you'll be thinking "OK, I have my PM9 so I'm only going to fire X shots here."

And the first part of my post pointed out that that's exactly what I'm likely to do. A lot will depend on what information I have available to me at the time. If I know he's got friends then that's going to figure into things. If I think he's alone then he gets it all if necessary.

To me you have to survive the initial contact no matter what. But you're not necessarily out of the fight until the calvalry arrives. That's why I like to carry as much gun as possible.

You never know how you're going to react in a real life situation until it happens. Having been confronted with a lethal threat once upon a time, I was pleasantly surprised with my ability to manage the threat and maintain situational awareness. I guess all that training pays dividends after all. :)