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CAPT KIRK
01-12-10, 10:44
Sorry guys up front for ranting....

Is it just me or are we constantly seeing "AR" shooters in the pictures and showing up at training events that are out of shape and over weight?

It seems odd that one could spend so much money and effort to buy all the cool guns and gear to partcipate in the "Tactical" lifestyle, but yet give no consideration to getting in shape. Do they not understand that physical fitness is the foundation of being a good tactical operator. Not to mention that they are more likely to die from the heart attack or stroke looming on their horizon, than from an active shooter or other violent threat.

Maybe we need to make physical fitness the new "gucci" accessory of the "tactical" scene.

If I offended anyone I am sorry... However I must admitted I had to have this same talk with myself at one time.

rob_s
01-12-10, 10:45
This won't end well, just so you know. ;)

Zhurdan
01-12-10, 11:00
So, now that you're in shape you can thumb your nose at the "fatties"? That'd be like a drug user kicking the habit then chastising those that are still addicted for being stupid. Sure, he may have wised up, but that doesn't make his decision making process any more morally superior throughout his life as a whole.

I've overweight, I didn't used to be. Life happened, I got an office job and BOOM, the pounds started packing on. I'm on a workout program right now and trying to slim down, but it'll take a lot longer to take it off than it did to pack it on. I guess I'll be one of those people that just enjoys shooting and learning until I meet the weight prerequisite of the "gucci gunman".

Besides, not everyone wants or thinks they're "tactical operators". I know for a fact that I'm not. I sit in an office all day punching keys. I shoot on the weekends and sometimes on Wednesday because I like it and it's a fun distraction from the outwardly boring job I have. Can I fix that too? You bet, but it'll take time, just like losing the weight.

Be mindful of standing on the same soap box that wouldn't have bore your weight prior to your enlightenment, it might still creek a little.

caporider
01-12-10, 11:04
The problem is you can't buy, fondle, mount, or "run" (as in "I run my SF M600C at 3 o'clock with an SR07 mounted at 12 o'clock") physical fitness. In our "stuff" oriented society, if you can't buy it, forget it.

Jay Cunningham
01-12-10, 11:07
While I agree that being in good physical condition is important (I try to stay in shape) I am not going to bang the drum and ram it down people's throats. I have seen too many "overweight" "out of shape" guys shoot and move really well.

I could easily ask: have YOU ever taken any professional driving instruction? Have YOU ever had EMT training? Because it could easily be argued that those two skill sets are more likely to be employed than operating your carbine or pistol.

Oh yeah, and before anyone says "not the same", "apples and oranges", "you missed the point" or <insert internet cliche rebuttal one-liner of your choice>... yes I do understand and no I didn't miss the point.

Just wanted to get that part out of the way up front.

;)

Jay Cunningham
01-12-10, 11:07
So, now that you're in shape you can thumb your nose at the "fatties"? That'd be like a drug user kicking the habit then chastising those that are still addicted for being stupid. Sure, he may have wised up, but that doesn't make his decision making process any more morally superior throughout his life as a whole.

I've overweight, I didn't used to be. Life happened, I got an office job and BOOM, the pounds started packing on. I'm on a workout program right now and trying to slim down, but it'll take a lot longer to take it off than it did to pack it on. I guess I'll be one of those people that just enjoys shooting and learning until I meet the weight prerequisite of the "gucci gunman".

Besides, not everyone wants or thinks they're "tactical operators". I know for a fact that I'm not. I sit in an office all day punching keys. I shoot on the weekends and sometimes on Wednesday because I like it and it's a fun distraction from the outwardly boring job I have. Can I fix that too? You bet, but it'll take time, just like losing the weight.

Be mindful of standing on the same soap box that wouldn't have bore your weight prior to your enlightenment, it might still creek a little.


Good post, there is nothing more annoying or zealous than a recent convert.

Gutshot John
01-12-10, 11:14
First of all 90% of the membership here ARE wannabes regardless of their fitness level. As such 90% of us are never going to have to assault a position, kick in a door or do whatever else. This is a hobby not a lifestyle. Given that and applying your logic none of them should be shooting either...of course that means a smaller market to get you all the cool "toys" you seem to obsess over.

Second why do you care what other people do? Seriously get a life and quit living others'. My guess is that you've got the faith of the converted and you're feeling really superior.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion but if you're saying fat people have no business shooting on the line with you than you've no business being on the line at all because you're not paying attention to what you should be paying attention to.

Make sure your own house is in order...then lead by example not by ill-conceived, anonymous internet rants.

My suggestion is that you be supportive and encouraging for every shooter on the line and that equating fat people to "wannabes" is a sure fire way to miss out on some pearls of wisdom that some old "fat" guy who has been shooting for decades might pass on to you.

There are quite a few "fat" shooters (many from this site) who've passed on a lot of good wisdom to me. Obviously better shape makes you a better operator, I don't know anyone who would dispute that but for a lot of us getting up on the line made us aware. Perhaps you should consider that.

rob_s
01-12-10, 11:26
This is a hobby not a lifestyle.

I think that maybe that's the problem.

and I don't think you have to be a professional end-user or a tinfoil-hatter to think so.

CAPT KIRK
01-12-10, 11:47
Good post, there is nothing more annoying or zealous than a recent convert.

Well.... I suppose I did deserve and expect some hate mail. But recent convert I am not. Ive been putting my tail on the line for society for over 20 years now... Oh and I do advanced driving, active shooter and even some medical training.

Zhurdan
01-12-10, 11:49
Well.... I suppose I did deserve and expect some hate mail. But recent convert I am not. Ive been putting my tail on the line for society for over 20 years now...

There was no hate or animosity in my post, just some friendly advice.

CAPT KIRK
01-12-10, 12:00
There was no hate or animosity in my post, just some friendly advice.

No problem, and I understand your point.

When I realised that I would be no use to the children of a school caught up in an active shooter incident because I would be pooped out after the first sprint into the scene, I decided to make my own personal change. Defending my "sheep" was worthwile motivation.

I agree that not all fall into my realm of reality. To those, I apologize and do appreciate that it is your participation in some of the classes that makes them possible in the first place.

CAPT KIRK
01-12-10, 12:03
This won't end well, just so you know. ;)

LOL.... guess that was a little impulsive of me..

Iraq Ninja
01-12-10, 12:29
I only give the Metabolically Challenged folks a hard time if they are part of my work environment. I don't want to end dragging some guy AND his excessive adipose tissue.

Same goes for the guys who live in the gym just to get huge and sexy. Strength training is great, but sadly a few folks in my career field are in the gym for personal, rather than professional reasons. Do you really need that huge chest, especially when the medic is trying to find your 2nd intercostal space AND he only has a standard length catheter? :)

I prefer being a small fast target. At 49, I have to fight at staying that way everyday.

CAPT KIRK
01-12-10, 12:35
Same goes for the guys who live in the gym just to get huge and sexy. Strength training is great, but sadly a few folks in my career field are in the gym for personal, rather than professional reasons. Do you really need that huge chest, especially when the medic is trying to find your 2nd intercostal space AND he only has a standard length catheter? :)

I prefer being a small fast target. At 49, I have to fight at staying that way everyday.

AMEN Brother...

I had a partner that was totaly yolked out. Every time he go into a fight he got injured (pulled something), because he didnt have time to warm up prior to exerting himself.

I am 44 and no small target, so I need to be extra fast I guess.... LOL

6933
01-12-10, 14:20
Have I seen out of shape guys shoot well? Of course. I can only speak for me and I feel being in shape will help me be better able to handle whatever may come my way. What if some asshole starts hassling me for no reason and he gets physical? This attitude comes from living in New Orleans where there was a higher than average probability of this occurring. I felt being in shape would help me to deal with the issue and/or run away to escape the situation. No shame in beating feet. Yes, I did have several situations where some asshole wanted to get physical through no fault of my own. We never know what may happen at any time or place. Staying in shape and learning some unarmed skills may save you or a loved one. Just my .02 and nothing more.

Von Rheydt
01-12-10, 15:05
The boring bit. A one mile run on hard ground burns around 125 calories, 145 calories on soft ground. One cookie is around 40 - 60 calories. A can of the real thing contains around 22 spoons of sugar and M**ntain D*w contains even more. The average male need around 2550 calories a day to function. When I was soldiering the Doc told us that to yomp around and to maintain the status quo we needed around 4000 - 5000 a day.

I am 51. We left having kids till late so I have a couple of rugrats and they keep my on my toes. I also work to stay at a level of fitness to run 8 miles in under one hour - it was a requirement for something in the British Army and it stuck as my personal measure of fitness. I am naturally prone to high BP so by exercising I keep it down.

Iraq Ninja
01-12-10, 15:31
When I was soldiering the Doc told us that to yomp around and to maintain the status quo we needed around 4000 - 5000 a day.


You a Boot Neck? We need to explain that UK Marines yomp while the rest of the Brit mil Tabs. Americans road march or just hike. :)

rubberneck
01-12-10, 16:27
Sorry guys up front for ranting....

Is it just me or are we constantly seeing "AR" shooters in the pictures and showing up at training events that are out of shape and over weight?

It seems odd that one could spend so much money and effort to buy all the cool guns and gear to partcipate in the "Tactical" lifestyle, but yet give no consideration to getting in shape. Do they not understand that physical fitness is the foundation of being a good tactical operator. Not to mention that they are more likely to die from the heart attack or stroke looming on their horizon, than from an active shooter or other violent threat.

Maybe we need to make physical fitness the new "gucci" accessory of the "tactical" scene.

If I offended anyone I am sorry... However I must admitted I had to have this same talk with myself at one time.

I guess I resemble that remark (the weight part) to some degree as I am probably 20 pounds overweight. I spent 30 years of my life studying one form of martial art or another. I wrestled from grade school through college. I boxed for a decade (and a pretty good one at that) and studied Aikido and Krav Maga. Several years ago I was one of the pretty people with the washboard abs but one day while working out, I took a bad fall and injured my back pretty badly. My options were to alter my lifestyle physically or have major back surgery that could leave me paralyized. Two shitty choices but as I approached 40 with two young children I made the one that was right for me. As a result my weight has suffered some what and despite that choice I still suffer pain from time to time despite being sedintary. Does that mean I don't understand the importance of physical conditioning? Hardly. Does that make me less worthy to seek out instruction on how to use a firearm? No.

You see I am not, nor I have ever fancied myself as any sort of tactical operator. My goals when training don't involve any Walter Mitty fantasies. What I am is a gun owner, a husband and a father who takes his responsibility to defend those I love very seriously. My glory days are behind me but even in my current physical condition I am fairly sure that (bad back and all) I wouldn't have any problem breaking my foot off in most people's asses including most fitness freaks.

Gutshot John
01-12-10, 17:36
I think that maybe that's the problem.

and I don't think you have to be a professional end-user or a tinfoil-hatter to think so.

Why is that a problem? Acknowledge the reality that the overwhelming majority of us have all of our tactical need met by a Glock 19? and that a Carbine and ANY associated gear is not likely to be employed? I know a lot of very serious hobbyists in competition and the like. I don't understand why it's a pejorative. I was out shooting with wind chills in the low teens all afternoon, was the OP? Yes I was quite warm. :)

We shoot carbines because we enjoy it. Now if you mean "hobbyist" in the vein of some guy popping of 100 rounds every six months...than that might be something, but I honestly don't see too many of those people around in winter. I've seen a lot of fat "hobbyists" shoot the pants off a lot of skinny dudes who do it for a living.

When people go to Pat Rogers or whatever, they're not going into combat with the guy on the right or left of them. They're there for their own reasons. Why should anyone care what they are what choices another guy makes?

If his life was on the line than the OP might have a gripe, if he's just talking about a bunch of "wannabes" that he will never have to see again in his life why the f*$( does he care what others do?

User Name
01-12-10, 18:04
Further incentive to get myself in shape.

QuietShootr
01-12-10, 18:48
n/m...too harsh.

Jay Cunningham
01-12-10, 19:11
Being in better shape I can see in no way hurting the end user.

And where, oh where, has anyone ever suggested anything otherwise? That is what I can never understand whenever one of these threads pops up.

"It's better to be in good shape than to not be in good shape."

How profound! :rolleyes: Next someone should start a thread declaring that the sky is blue and water is wet! Mr. Obvious to the rescue!

Does everyone posting in this thread get eight hours of sleep per night? If not you shouldn't train with firearms. Does everyone in this thread drink at least two liters of water every day? If not you shouldn't train with firearms. Anyone smoke? No training for you, you damn hypocrite - wait, WANABEE!

I couldn't possibly care less if someone I am shooting with is fat as long as they are safe. I have witnessed many skinny guys in great shape who are dangerous with a firearm. I also know many skinny guys who are unhealthy and many guys who are "fat" that are in great condition.

RogerinTPA
01-12-10, 19:19
First of all 90% of the membership here ARE wannabes regardless of their fitness level. As such 90% of us are never going to have to assault a position, kick in a door or do whatever else. This is a hobby not a lifestyle. Given that and applying your logic none of them should be shooting either...of course that means a smaller market to get you all the cool "toys" you seem to obsess over.

Second why do you care what other people do? Seriously get a life and quit living others'. My guess is that you've got the faith of the converted and you're feeling really superior.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion but if you're saying fat people have no business shooting on the line with you than you've no business being on the line at all because you're not paying attention to what you should be paying attention to.

Make sure your own house is in order...then lead by example not by ill-conceived, anonymous internet rants.

My suggestion is that you be supportive and encouraging for every shooter on the line and that equating fat people to "wannabes" is a sure fire way to miss out on some pearls of wisdom that some old "fat" guy who has been shooting for decades might pass on to you.

There are quite a few "fat" shooters (many from this site) who've passed on a lot of good wisdom to me. Obviously better shape makes you a better operator, I don't know anyone who would dispute that but for a lot of us getting up on the line made us aware. Perhaps you should consider that.

Totally in agreement.

A person's lifestyle is his/hers personal issue, whether it be healthy or not. At every class or range session, I try to encourage and recommend better ways of doing things if asked, regardless of body fat content. I try to lead a healthy lifestyle, all thing in moderation. At 47, 5'11 230lbs, I'm no slouch, and still knock out 50 pushups and situps 3 times a week, but it takes a some dedication to get where I think I need to be.

I don't condemn others because of body weight, mistakes seen, gear issues, weapons used or none of that Tacitcool snob internet geek poser bullshit I see on occasion. I've seen bigger folks hustle and shoot just as good, if not better than most, in any formal course I have taken. I'd rather learn and teach the skills, than to belittle someone because I have need to feel superior. It doesn't advance our hobby or sport in an effective discussion to move forward from. I try to learn and share the wealth of knowledge I have learned, without prejudice or with looking upon someone with an "holier than though" attitude. The company of like minded people, learning and sharing that knowledge, is what has drawn me to shooting for over 30 years, as a competitor, military type and as a hobby shooter. Everything else is irrelevant.

The other option is for folks who feel "superior" is to make shooting clubs of people who look like you, think like you, dress like you, and have circle jerks, with no dissenting opinions.

Gutshot John
01-12-10, 19:28
So while 90% of M4C is never going to be an ass/door kicker. What percentage of posters here are responsible for their loved ones?

How many people coceal carry here?

I think if you go back and re-read the post you responded to you'll find that I said that a handgun (Glock 19) is all the firearm that any of us is likely to need, employ, or in the case of ccw, have available.

By definition this includes protecting your loved ones or your own life. But do you go walking around with a carbine every day? Do you need one for work? If you do I'm not talking about you.

We buy stuff you like or want. If it ain't your money and if fitness or lack therof has ZERO impact on your ability to protect yourself or your loved ones WTF does anyone care what anyone does with their time and money?

Assuming one can be safe on the line no matter what their fitness level, the only thing you should be worrying about is what you're doing behind your muzzle, not what someone else has on the line.

Jay Cunningham
01-12-10, 19:32
All I was trying to do is point how people put all this thought into firearms and self defense, magazine capacity, bullet type, weapon lights but seemingly negate the fact physical ability plays a huge role in who lives and dies.

That is all. You might see it as obvious but I thought some posters have not yet come to that conclusion.

PJ


And a 105 lb. woman that cannot do one push up can stop multiple 250 lb. male attackers if she is armed with an effective firearm and the training and mindset to put it to good use.

We can all agree that there aren't any downsides to being in "good shape." Not so sure about some of the other theories, though.

Jay Cunningham
01-12-10, 19:39
And she will be far more effective, efficient and most likely has a high probability of living if she is in better shape with the same training/mindset.


PJ

She would also have a much better chance if she was trained in the secret arts of ninjutsu for 20 years.

Gutshot John
01-12-10, 19:40
I am simply trying to show a side to this story. That is all. If your goal is to be fat and happy ok.

What story? That being in shape is better than being out of shape?

No kidding.

The title of this thread is "wannabes blank-expletive." There are skinny wannabes and there are fat wannabes. Your fitness level doesn't determine whether you're a wannabe.

BushmasterFanBoy
01-12-10, 19:42
I agree, but being a recent convert myself (only a year-long enthusiast now) I think a lot of it comes from the fact that using guns on the range is FUN. That's what most of it is. Sure, many folks imagine using their guns defensively (though the likelyhood of that is low) but most are doing it out of enjoyment, with a perceived need to be armed and trained for some scenario being a distant 2nd.

After all, if shooting was hard, I doubt as many would do it. But, I'm sure many here, myself included, would continue all the same, because of other reasons. (Mine being that I put a lot of time into shooting, and like to take value in my "skills" despite my full acknowledgment of their lack of value in my day-to-day life)

There's nothing wrong with having fun, but it never hurts to notice the paradox of taking shooting for "training" purposes seriously when you yourself are not prepared to even physically be in a situation in which to use the weapon. There's a different kind of "fun" that comes from achievement, and you get plenty of it when you get in shape. I remember getting a rush in beating a par time on the range, now I get it from a new mile time or lifting milestone.

Besides, what's more, is that once you acknowledge that you take your self defense seriously, and that you really do believe that you should be armed and capable of using your carbine for defense, or even the remote possibility of some disaster, you should be able to quickly make the commitment to get in shape. One quickly leads into the other as soon as you take the responsibility seriously.

Of course, if you're only in it for the fun, go ahead and take it easy. Lord knows there are many great shooters who aren't in peak shape, and I'm sure many of them outshoot guys in prime shape. But that's a different thing than self defense or survival, and I think the input of qualified guys in this thread speaks for itself with regards to how physical fitness weighs in in that realm.

Being a relative noob to physical fitness, I don't think I'm in a position to criticize people who lead sedentary lifestyles or are out of shape, mostly because I'm nowhere near great shape myself. I think its not really an issue if people are honest with themselves.

Does this mean that you should give up on your "Walter Mitty" ideas if you're chubby? HELL NO. Take whatever motivation you have in your mind, whatever perceived need that you should spend thousands on an AR, and use that to get yourself in shape. If beleiving that SHTF is right around the corner got you to blow $$$$ on a rifle and thousands of rounds of ammo, even a training class or two, then it ought to be able to get you to hit the gym and stick to a diet. Use the motivation you have to get the results you want.

PRGGodfather
01-12-10, 19:59
Just to derail the thread, here's great thread as to where MINDSET fits into this conversation:

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=38109

Is there any significant difference between a wannabe, a usetabe, and a neverwas? Yeah, we can all stand some improvement -- and yes, I was once a machine -- but the clock respects NO ONE. NO ONE gets out alive. Jack LaLanne is still a monster... but even Ahnuld is a 50+ year old dude whose pecs won't stop HSTs.

When I'm an 80-year old fart, I still plan to be a rookie cop's nightmare -- God willing and the creek don't rise. Experience, dirty fighting, guile, willingness to f*** someone's sh*t up and extreme bitterness counts. Sometimes, as my dear friend Paddy is fond of saying, "We have to embrace the hate."

No one promised us fair. That's why I have a gun -- ESPECIALLY after my hip replacement.

Guns. They're not just for breakfast.

rob_s
01-12-10, 20:03
Why is that a problem? Acknowledge the reality that the overwhelming majority of us have all of our tactical need met by a Glock 19? and that a Carbine and ANY associated gear is not likely to be employed? I know a lot of very serious hobbyists in competition and the like. I don't understand why it's a pejorative. I was out shooting with wind chills in the low teens all afternoon, was the OP? Yes I was quite warm. :)

We shoot carbines because we enjoy it. Now if you mean "hobbyist" in the vein of some guy popping of 100 rounds every six months...than that might be something, but I honestly don't see too many of those people around in winter. I've seen a lot of fat "hobbyists" shoot the pants off a lot of skinny dudes who do it for a living.

When people go to Pat Rogers or whatever, they're not going into combat with the guy on the right or left of them. They're there for their own reasons. Why should anyone care what they are what choices another guy makes?

If his life was on the line than the OP might have a gripe, if he's just talking about a bunch of "wannabes" that he will never have to see again in his life why the f*$( does he care what others do?

You used the hobby term, only you know what you meant by it.

As posted in the thread the last time this came up I don't care what others do but find what I see as contradictions in a 300 pounder training and preparing to survive the apocalypse as amusing at best. I thought that by saying it is a hobby that was your way of saying that maybe they weren't at the class to prepare but as a kind of Outward Bound with guns. That would seem to make sense to me, and by "problem" I mean that maybe it's what causes the confusion; different people attending classes for different reasons.

rubberneck
01-12-10, 20:25
Does this mean that you should give up on your "Walter Mitty" ideas if you're chubby? HELL NO.

My reference to Walter Mitty wasn't a positive one. The Mitty in Thurber's book was so bored with his life that he needed to create exciting alter ego's just to feel good about himself.

Rob you may find that amusing but I find the guys who bloviate endlessly about their tactical training and physical fitness but never spent a second in the gym getting punched in the face even more amusing. I am not saying that you fall in that group, but I shake my hand every time I hear some bozo claim he doesn't need to know how to get hands on because he is fluent in Glock Fu. Talk about having your priorities all screwed up.

Gutshot John
01-12-10, 20:27
You used the hobby term, only you know what you meant by it.


I concede your point though I believe it also holds true for the OP's terminology of "wannabe" as well.

BushmasterFanBoy
01-12-10, 20:34
My reference to Walter Mitty wasn't a positive one. The Mitty in Thurber's book was so bored with his life that he needed to create exciting alter ego's just to feel good about himself.

Point taken, but if people have "preperational" fantasies about self defense/SHTF/playing army men/whatever, they can use it to motivate them into doing something concrete, that is real and does have payoffs in the real world. I'd think Mitty would have been a more admirable (though still humorous) character if his delusions had been part of some self improvement, instead of knuckling under to the world.

6933
01-12-10, 20:41
For me, and only me, my take is that taking pistol and carbine classes are one in the same with staying in shape. I am prepping to increase my probability to survive any potential situations.

If I were only proficient in pistol/carbine, I would be at a disadvantage when it came time to deal with a physical(hands on) confrontation, need to hike out to escape out whatever, carry family out of a burning house, or deal with the aftermath of Katrina; which I had to. Being in good shape most definitely helped me to walk miles through water and heat carrying needed supplies.

I don't give a sh** about the shape of the person next to me in a training class. However, I do care about the shape of anyone that I may have to rely upon in a bad situation. My wife likes to stay in shape, thank goodness, but if she didn't, I would ride her ass because it may fall to her to handle the physical whatever if I weren't around or was injured.

If one had to choose whom they brought along in a SHTF scenario(with all other things equal), would they be more likely to choose someone in shape, or not? This is just how I try to work things out in my mind, nothing more. Not trying to stir sh** up or get under anyone's skin.

rubberneck
01-12-10, 20:59
The question in this thread isn't if physical fitness is important. It is and no one disagrees with that. What some are taking exception to is the idea that you can't be serious about training if you aren't also taking steps to be in peak conditioning. Getting to your point, yes if all things were equal go with the more fit partner but things aren't always equal and when they aren't ability almost always trumps fitness.

crusader377
01-12-10, 23:32
Sorry guys up front for ranting....

Is it just me or are we constantly seeing "AR" shooters in the pictures and showing up at training events that are out of shape and over weight?

It seems odd that one could spend so much money and effort to buy all the cool guns and gear to partcipate in the "Tactical" lifestyle, but yet give no consideration to getting in shape. Do they not understand that physical fitness is the foundation of being a good tactical operator. Not to mention that they are more likely to die from the heart attack or stroke looming on their horizon, than from an active shooter or other violent threat.

Maybe we need to make physical fitness the new "gucci" accessory of the "tactical" scene.

If I offended anyone I am sorry... However I must admitted I had to have this same talk with myself at one time.


I think it is very rash to label people as wannabes if they are not in excellent shape. As a former Army officer with combat experience, I think physical fitness is only part of the equation of being a good soldier. I think training with your weapons, mental toughness, courage, technical and tactical competence, battlefield awareness, and overall intelligence are just as important if not more important as well. Plus it is very nice to have luck on your side. From my time in the Army, I found that sometimes the most vocal individuals about PT and weight were sometimes compensating for lack of ability in other key areas.

I think many people, myself included enjoy forums to learn from individuals who are more experienced and are subject matter experts. I will probably never be in a combat deployment again but having the ability to protect my family is very important to me and I want to be able to use the tools at my disposal the most effective way possible. For a home defense minded individual, I would rather be a little fat but be tactically competent and have good weapons skills, and have the right mental mindset rather than being in great physical shape but lacking in the previously mentioned areas.

glocktogo
01-12-10, 23:32
The question in this thread isn't if physical fitness is important. It is and no one disagrees with that. What some are taking exception to is the idea that you can't be serious about training if you aren't also taking steps to be in peak conditioning. Getting to your point, yes if all things were equal go with the more fit partner but things aren't always equal and when they aren't ability almost always trumps fitness.

Exactly. When I got out of the Corps 21 years ago I was 6' and 163#. I was lean as a snake and just as mean. At 44 I've mellowed and weigh 220. I've had several surgeries to include back surgery, and I now ride a desk.

That didn't stop me from coming in 11th overall out of 359 shooters at the 09 IDPA Nationals a few months ago. I was the top amatuer shooter and I did it while suffering an acute case of tendonitis and a bad knee that put me in a walking boot and knee brace for a month after the match.

The odds that I'll have to do a Mogadishu Mile are pretty low these days. But never discount an old fat man. He may not fight you, he may just kill you.

How's that old saying go? "Age and treachery will trump youth and enthusiasm every time"? :)

VaeVictis
01-13-10, 02:10
I for one am glad that the "Wannabies" are taking the time to train and to learn how to use their weapons. We have enough people out there who own guns and barely know how to use them. I am pretty fit and go to the gym regularly but I know that if I would spend half the time that I go to the gym on handling my guns and attending classes, I would be a better "tactial operator" for it. You don't need to be fit to shoot accurately or have the knowledge of what to do in a firefight. You certaintly can't find those skills in a gym, and I for one would not like to find myself in a firefight with anyone who attends any tactical classes, regardless of fitness. There 'aint no fit person alive who can out run a bullet.

Von Rheydt
01-13-10, 03:25
You a Boot Neck? We need to explain that UK Marines yomp while the rest of the Brit mil Tabs. Americans road march or just hike. :)

Ok, ok. Marching or hiking.

Yomp = Royal Marines
Tab = Airborne Forces.
Bimble = The rest;). A bimble is normally slow'ish steady walk normally with no tactical purpose.

My basic training benefitted from the input of two DI's (MTI's we called them) that had spent time as Army Commandos. So the [polite] language they used was my indoctrination to Mil Speak.

A wet = beer.
Good hand = good guy.
Head = head ......... for those that really don't know, thats a toilet.
Shake your jake = visit the toilet.



If one had to choose whom they brought along in a SHTF scenario(with all other things equal), would they be more likely to choose someone in shape, or not? This is just how I try to work things out in my mind, nothing more. Not trying to stir sh** up or get under anyone's skin.

I have basic rules when I go out on the hills with people. The most important is: "If you want it you carry it" - the only extra I will carry is the larger first aid kit. I find that inexperienced and unfit people tend to carry more thinking that the stuff they carry will somehow compensate for lack of fitness and lack of ability.

Sadly the lack of fitness in society today is attributable to the lifestyles we lead and are forced down by entertainment corporations and food producers. I mean, who the hell realistically needs to eat a double snickers bars - there are enough calories in one of those packs to adequatley replace one of the main meals of the day ......... and people eat them for a snack along with a pint cup of coffee.

For anyone who wants to get fit don't start out going to the gym or trying to run. Just start out walking around, mark out a 1.5 mile distance and walk there and then back. 3 miles should take around an hour at a steady even pace. Give it a week and then add a mile or two. After another week add on a bit more and wear a day pack with around 10 lbs - 15 lbs in it. When you drink, only drink plain water nothing with sugar or any of these zero cal drinks - its all crap. After a while, and I only mean two or three weeks, you will start to feel better and be walking 10 foot tall with your day sack on your back. This is the time to start adding in short 100 yard runs, not sprints, you will build up to sprints naturally - one day you will notice that you are running further and faster. Cycling is also good for cardio vascular but is slower at burning up the body fat only around 500 calories for a hours work - which is calorifically comparable to a four mile run which is do-able in around 40 - 50 minutes for a beginner.

You will feel better, you will move better, you will be faster, your partner will appreciate your enhanced performance ..... and you will not look like the slow fat guy on the range anymore.

rob_s
01-13-10, 05:31
I see a lot of posts saying things to the effect of "you don't have to be in good shape to win a 60 second fight with a handgun", and I agree. You also don't have to be in great shape to win a shooting contest.

I think that what most of us find ironic is not the idea that someone who is out of shape physically won't be able to win the fight but that they are preparing for something that has a likelihood of killing them that is statistically insignificant (a violent encounter) while they are ignoring factors that are highly likely to be the cause of their death (like heart disease brought on by obesity).

As I posted earlier what someone else chooses to do has no impact on me, but I find that contradiction interesting and curious. That doesn't mean they can't teach me something in terms of how to shoot, or medical treatment, or any one of hundreds of topics, it just means I take them with a grain of salt on other topics.

For what it's worth, it's not just about obesity in terms of what you see at classes. Fat people are easier to spot and perhaps get more attention but it goes the other way as well. I have seen a whole lot of people of all sorts of body types that have struggled at classes. TD3 is always an interesting study. Lot's of people of all sorts have problems getting up and down, shooting on the move, etc. Hopefully for most they leave with a resolve to do something about it.

Gutshot John
01-13-10, 06:51
I think that what most of us find ironic is not the idea that someone who is out of shape physically won't be able to win the fight but that they are preparing for something that has a likelihood of killing them that is statistically insignificant (a violent encounter) while they are ignoring factors that are highly likely to be the cause of their death (like heart disease brought on by obesity).

While true it's also irrelevant.

Life is 100% fatal, many if not most of us die from some form of cardio-vascular illness. Statistically fatter people are more likely to die earlier than people who are fit but at the real individual level you have skinny people who drop dead at 45 and fat people who live into their hundreds. When people hear the word "risk factor" they presume that it's universal. Ultimately however skinny you are doesn't stop the inevitable death. In fact we term it "natural causes." It's expected, normal. Dying violently as you state is a much rarer circumstance.

For that and other reasons natural death is demonstrably different from dying violently or watching your loved ones die violently at the hands of a criminal or terrorist or neighbor or whatever. While statistically rare, most of us (and I think any rational person) take steps to avoid that possibility.

Truly though this isn't the point...once again NO ONE has disputed that being in better shape is better for your health.

This of course is a separate issue from those who feel threatened and obsess over what other people do and what choices they make.

What you have between your ears is far more important to your survival fitness than the extra 20-30 pounds you carry which you'll lose real quick if the SHTF. Than you start factoring in variables like luck.

Knowing what to do with a gun and how to employ it as well as the gear to support it in that circumstance will be a net plus no matter what your fitness level. That's self-evident as much as saying being in better shape will be a net plus no matter what your training level.

rob_s
01-13-10, 06:59
Knowing what to do with a gun and how to employ it as well as the gear to support it in that circumstance will be a net plus no matter what your fitness level. That's self-evident as much as saying being in better shape will be a net plus no matter what your training level.

While true, it's also irrelevant ;)

Ignoring the likelihood of a given event is an indicator of motivation and mindset, which becomes a matter of credibility.

and we go 'round and 'round in circles with this. Those that choose to be physically infirm yet train for a statistically insignificant event seem to continue to retreat to "what do you care what I do?" That being the sole and repeated answer is telling IMHO. You mention mindset in your post, and it's that very mindset that I question.

Do I "care" what they do? No, so long as they aren't the weak link in a class holding the rest of us up. But I find sociology and psychology interesting and that makes me question behaviors that I don't understand. I've been asking this particular question for years and the (non)answer is always the same. hence my first post in this thread.

I think that Bushmasterfanboy's posts in this thread are by far the most interesting.

rob_s
01-13-10, 07:03
I read an interesting study recently that I'll have to try to dig up. The gist of the study was that in 1900 the likelihood of one dying due to a decision they made themselves was something on the order of 4%. In other words, 4% of deaths were due to a decision made by the individual. Today it's somewhere north of 50%. I think that's pretty interesting as it relates to the topic at hand. I'll try to find it later today.

Gutshot John
01-13-10, 07:12
Once again I don't see where anyone has said being in shape isn't a good thing.

If you don't care why have you been obsessing over other peoples fitness for a while now?

You don't like fatties on the line. Got it but they paid good money to be there.

Gutshot John
01-13-10, 07:17
Irrelevant as in apples/oranges are irrelevant.

Violent death is and always will be by evolutionary predilictions a more acute fear.

I don't think you have to be a biologist to understand why.

glocktogo
01-13-10, 10:23
I read an interesting study recently that I'll have to try to dig up. The gist of the study was that in 1900 the likelihood of one dying due to a decision they made themselves was something on the order of 4%. In other words, 4% of deaths were due to a decision made by the individual. Today it's somewhere north of 50%. I think that's pretty interesting as it relates to the topic at hand. I'll try to find it later today.

What bearing would that have on the issue? Saying that the world was a much more dangerous place to live in 1900 is stating the obvious. We have every modern convenience and safety feature imaginable these days. Hell, refrigeration and Underwriters Laboratories is probably as much responsible for the average life expectancy increase as medical science.

You're much more likely to die of arteriosclerosis by Twinkie or a car wreck because you suck at driving these days. But that doesn't change the fact that the average life span has increased by nearly 50% in the past 100 years.

I think you're likelihood of surviving to your natural death is far more influenced by your awareness of your surroundings than any level of training you might have. Stupid people simply need more training to be made aware of how inattentive they are.

As for whether they're overweight or out of shape, lots of people make lifestyle choices base on what type of life they wish to lead. Some may elect to squeeze every ounce of pleasure out of it as opposed to obsessing every day over evey calorie they ingest or every step they take. That doesn't mean they want to be woefully unprepared if they're ever attacked. You agree that you don't have to be in good shape to win a 60 second fight with a handgun.

Anyone who spends more than a glancing thought about whether some anonymous classmate is fat or out of shape has their priorities skewed in my opinion.

C4IGrant
01-13-10, 11:25
Sorry guys up front for ranting....

Is it just me or are we constantly seeing "AR" shooters in the pictures and showing up at training events that are out of shape and over weight?

It seems odd that one could spend so much money and effort to buy all the cool guns and gear to partcipate in the "Tactical" lifestyle, but yet give no consideration to getting in shape. Do they not understand that physical fitness is the foundation of being a good tactical operator. Not to mention that they are more likely to die from the heart attack or stroke looming on their horizon, than from an active shooter or other violent threat.

Maybe we need to make physical fitness the new "gucci" accessory of the "tactical" scene.

If I offended anyone I am sorry... However I must admitted I had to have this same talk with myself at one time.


First, people should try and eat well, exercise and reduce stress so that they have the best chance of having a long life.

Now with that said, it is FOOLISH to not attend a defensive shooting school just because you are over weight.

It is also foolish to try and tell people to NOT buy a gun or gear or attend a shooting school just because they are obese.

For the record, some of the best shooters I have EVER met and shot with are/were overweight.


C4

C4IGrant
01-13-10, 11:38
I see a lot of posts saying things to the effect of "you don't have to be in good shape to win a 60 second fight with a handgun", and I agree. You also don't have to be in great shape to win a shooting contest.

I think that what most of us find ironic is not the idea that someone who is out of shape physically won't be able to win the fight but that they are preparing for something that has a likelihood of killing them that is statistically insignificant (a violent encounter) while they are ignoring factors that are highly likely to be the cause of their death (like heart disease brought on by obesity).

As I posted earlier what someone else chooses to do has no impact on me, but I find that contradiction interesting and curious. That doesn't mean they can't teach me something in terms of how to shoot, or medical treatment, or any one of hundreds of topics, it just means I take them with a grain of salt on other topics.

For what it's worth, it's not just about obesity in terms of what you see at classes. Fat people are easier to spot and perhaps get more attention but it goes the other way as well. I have seen a whole lot of people of all sorts of body types that have struggled at classes. TD3 is always an interesting study. Lot's of people of all sorts have problems getting up and down, shooting on the move, etc. Hopefully for most they leave with a resolve to do something about it.

As we have discussed this before. NO MAN wants to be a victim and will die trying to protect his loved ones. This is where the need/want for firearms training comes into play for them.



C4

orionz06
01-13-10, 12:15
I think many people, myself included enjoy forums to learn from individuals who are more experienced and are subject matter experts. I will probably never be in a combat deployment again but having the ability to protect my family is very important to me and I want to be able to use the tools at my disposal the most effective way possible. For a home defense minded individual, I would rather be a little fat but be tactically competent and have good weapons skills, and have the right mental mindset rather than being in great physical shape but lacking in the previously mentioned areas.

that is correct, but also, those fat people in the class (i wont call heavy people always out of shape) may be 100 pounds lighter from last year. There is also the investment to consider. $500 for class, $500 for ammo, assume the firearm is owned, and $50 travel brings the weekend class total to $1050. A grand wont buy those people skinny, but their proficiency might be the quickest of the two problems to solve. What they learn at the class will perhaps aid in their journey to physical fitness as well. A grand will buy them a gym membership, but if they can use their training class to work towards a fitness goal, isn't that better in the end?

variablebinary
01-13-10, 12:34
It's all fun and games till...

http://www.zombielandrules.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/zombieland-rule-1.jpg

Gutshot John
01-13-10, 18:44
It's all fun and games till...

http://www.zombielandrules.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/zombieland-rule-1.jpg

"I don't have to outrun the zombie, I just have to outrun you." ;)

Magsz
01-13-10, 19:50
Iraq Ninja touched on something.

What about the "juicer" thats so huge he can barely shoulder the rifle because of excessive length of pull due to a 3000000 inch chest?

Those guys are just as bad the "fatties" since they each are handicapped in one way, shape or form.

For anyone that frequents the fitness forum there are quite a few people in here, myself included that are very interested in functional strength, speed and agility hence the reason why we work out and make lifestyle choices that fit in with our shooting hobby.

Other posters have already mentioned that there are a ton of heavy set gents out there that shoot and move quite well. Its all about how people present themselves. There are tons of guys out there that think they're freakin combat ninja's whether they're 170 pounds and lean or 280 and rocking 40% body fat. Its these asshats that give shooters a bad name, not the guy out there thats genuinely trying to build a skillset while being in mediocre or even bad shape.

Its all about attitude.

Having said that, i think physical fitness should be encouraged a bit more in the shooting sports, namely local IDPA clubs...cough....cough...rob...cough, sorry hacking up a hairball here.

Also, correct me if im wrong but are there any REALLY heavyset high ranking USPSA or IPSC shooters out there? I dont really think so so please, correct me if this observation is off base.

rob_s
01-13-10, 20:24
Anyone who spends more than a glancing thought about whether some anonymous classmate is fat or out of shape has their priorities skewed in my opinion.

Anyone who spends hours, days, weeks, and/or thousands of dollars on firearms training while ignoring their health has their priorities skewed in my opinion. ;)

rob_s
01-13-10, 20:26
It is also foolish to try and tell people to NOT buy a gun or gear or attend a shooting school just because they are obese.


You are right, but not because the sentiment is wrong, but instead because they won't listen (read this thread and the other one if you have any doubt).

Jay Cunningham
01-13-10, 20:30
You are right, but not because the sentiment is wrong, but instead because they won't listen (read this thread and the other one if you have any doubt).

Won't listen? Won't listen to who? To you?

rob_s
01-13-10, 20:38
Won't listen? Won't listen to who? To you?

logic? reason? rational thought? reality?

jrmymiles
01-13-10, 20:46
I have always been overweight. Probably always will be. Most of my family is. I have tried alot of thing to lose weight, but I can never keep it off. Ya ya ya, you guys have heard all this before, but im in the security business. I take JKD and I and im in class 4 hrs a week sometimes more. I make it to the range once a week weather permitting. I have a mind set that it is my responsibility to take care of my family and myself. Am I great with a gun, no. Am I Bruce Lee, no, but dont exclude the fat guy. Some of us are playing with the cards that we are delt. ;)

Gutshot John
01-13-10, 20:51
Anyone who spends hours, days, weeks, and/or thousands of dollars on firearms training while ignoring their health has their priorities skewed in my opinion. ;)

So your priorities are the only correct ones? Well shit why didn't you tell me? I mean how was I supposed to know I only thought you were a hobbyist. :p

Well I guess we can all go home now.

Alaskapopo
01-13-10, 20:52
Sorry guys up front for ranting....

Is it just me or are we constantly seeing "AR" shooters in the pictures and showing up at training events that are out of shape and over weight?

It seems odd that one could spend so much money and effort to buy all the cool guns and gear to partcipate in the "Tactical" lifestyle, but yet give no consideration to getting in shape. Do they not understand that physical fitness is the foundation of being a good tactical operator. Not to mention that they are more likely to die from the heart attack or stroke looming on their horizon, than from an active shooter or other violent threat.

Maybe we need to make physical fitness the new "gucci" accessory of the "tactical" scene.

If I offended anyone I am sorry... However I must admitted I had to have this same talk with myself at one time.


It is possible to like shooting and want to be trained but be out of shape. Getting into shape is harder than learning to shoot. I am working on getting into shape and have lost 16 pounds so far. But I have a lot more to go. Yet I generally shoot in the top 4 or 5 at the matches I attended and am the 1st or 2nd at the last two LEO shots I have attended.

Yes being in shape is important but just because someone is not in shape does nto mean they should be denied training. It is also entierly possible that someone in less shape can be a far better shooter than someone in great shape. Its two different skill sets. Despite being over weight I have managed to be a good cop for 10 years now.
Pat

Gutshot John
01-13-10, 21:04
logic? reason? rational thought? reality?

Speaking of reality, credibility and a host of other issues.

What's the most amount of weight you've ever had to lose?

Are you a Dietician? Trainer?

I saw you talking about drinking a bunch of booze over the holidays in a thread, how is drinking any different than eating? You might just as easily say that anyone who spends thousands of dollars on firearms/gear but then drinks and smokes has their "priorities skewed."

Fatties obviously bother you but I wonder whether your less obvious character defects have any less impact on long-term health... realistically speaking alcohol is a HUGE risk factor in cardio-vascular health. So have you changed your behavior?

I don't care if you drink, I drink too. My wife smokes and that pisses me off but I also deal with it. I still want her to learn to shoot more.

Is your goal to help others improve their overall fitness? or is your goal to make yourself feel better by annoying those around you? If it's the former I don't sense any genuine concern on your part, more like derision so that may be where your message is falling short.

Alaskapopo
01-13-10, 21:34
One more thing. One thing that drives me nuts are fitness snobs. The guys who look down on you because you are fat or simply not in as good of shape as them. We all have our own set of skills, strengths and weakness. There is no reason to treat someone poorly because you don't approve of their level of fitness.
Pat

Jay Cunningham
01-13-10, 21:43
Is your goal to help others improve their overall fitness? or is your goal to make yourself feel better by annoying those around you? If it's the former I don't sense any genuine concern on your part, more like derision so that may be where your message is falling short.

Honestly Rob, GSJ has a point. Your message very much seems like derision on this and several other recurring topics. Maybe it's just how your "internet persona" comes across?

TOrrock
01-13-10, 22:10
I think this thread has run it's course.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Funny%20stuff/P1040392.jpg