View Full Version : Uzi versus AR
In a strictly indoors home defense scenario what do you think about and sbr'd (9mm) Uzi( SA) verus an sbr'd AR ? I'm considering purchasing a Vector Uzi with collapsible stock to fill the home defense role. My thinking is the UZI is:
more compact
more tolerable sound and flash signature
decent ballistics (but not optimal)
can more easily be fired one handed if needed (if I needed to carry one of my kids)
Outside of a home defense role the Uzi can be concealed much more easily than say a 10"" barreled AR if one was in a situation where a long gun was needed, but being inconspicuous was a priority.
Have you ever spent some range time with one?
An Uzi is a large, bulky, and heavy pistol, with a trigger ranging from rough to horrible, with rudimentary sights optimized for shouldered use. In single handed shooting ergos are horrible and your performance is likely to be as well. Shouldered, you can expect to maintain reasonable to good confrontational accuracy with practice.
They can be fun guns, especially genuine IMI guns in FA, but they are what they are.
I would stick with a mainstream system (rifle or pistol caliber) and setup, and practice transitions as you work your scenarios. Consider a suppressor.
I'd rather have a M11/9 with a Lage upper than an UZI for your role.
I'd rather have a M11/9 with a Lage upper than an UZI for your role.
I'm giving thought to a Mac as well with a folding stock.
MarshallDodge
01-12-10, 13:33
I think I would just get a hi-cap handgun and become proficient with it.
citizensoldier16
01-12-10, 14:32
MP5...it meets all your requirements, plus it doesn't suck.
-lightweight
-shoulder-fire capable
-pistol caliber
-compact
I think I would just get a hi-cap handgun and become proficient with it.
The train of thought here is that a stocked weapon is much easier to shoot accurately than a non-stocked weapon. That being the case I am trying to work out in my head what would be the most practical PDW that has the following attributes:
compact (more compact and lighter than a 10" AR)
decent balistics
able to easily shoot one handed if needed
geminidglocker
01-12-10, 15:09
I owned an UZI once, it was IMI. It was nice, but for the life of me I only baught it for the looks. They are not very practical. My AR Pistol is much more practical.
It may have poor ergonomics and be outdated by today's standards, but I would hardly say that it sucked. Israel isnt known for pissing in the wind when it comes to their weapons. Get a Bizon2 :p
The Uzi would provide a "coolness" factor and not much else. The 5.56 would serve you better than the 9mm in this scenario. Let's think over-penetration.
The Uzi is heavier and not as ergonomic IMHO. An SBR'd AR can also be shot one-handed if necessary. You also have better options for adding a light or other necessary options as opposed to the Uzi.
I only bother to shoot Uzi's when the ammunition is free.
As stated above the Uzi has the cool factor ,but for Home defense ,No, Not in My Book there are a lot better sub guns for that role .on the bright side if you get close enough you could beat them to death with the weight of the Uzi:D I had a Uzi in the 80's and everyone was"oh cool gangsta gun" But I did not like it and sold it asap.If a 9mm is your choice what about a AR platform set up for 9mm or 45
In a strictly indoors home defense scenario what do you think about and sbr'd (9mm) Uzi( SA) verus an sbr'd AR ? I'm considering purchasing a Vector Uzi with collapsible stock to fill the home defense role. My thinking is the UZI is:
more compact
more tolerable sound and flash signature
decent ballistics (but not optimal)
can more easily be fired one handed if needed (if I needed to carry one of my kids)
Outside of a home defense role the Uzi can be concealed much more easily than say a 10"" barreled AR if one was in a situation where a long gun was needed, but being inconspicuous was a priority.
Having fired more than a few firearms indoors, especially in hallways and things like that, I generally prefer a pistol caliber carbine for HD to an AR15.
Generally lighter, quieter (especially suppressed) and with less recoil for rapid engagement of multiple targets. Also, despite the FBI materials test, in every real world example I've seen 9mm penetrates drywall and 2x4s far less than 5.56mm.
This is why I prefer my MP5 to my Colt 6520.
Now the Uzi will have some of those advantages, but it has some disadvantages.
Uzi sights kinda suck. Irons are tight peeps that are much slower than AR15 peeps and you really don't have many rail options for faster optics and red dots. Also on a stock Uzi there is no provision for a weapon mounted light.
Folding stock sucks. The only stock that is actually worse than both the AK underfolder and the HK slide folding stock. Horribly uncomfortable with an atrocious cheek weld. Fixed stock Uzis do not have this problem.
Weighs a ton. An Uzi can actually weigh more than some AR15 carbines. On full auto this can be an advantage, on semi auto it is needlessly heavy. You can fire an Uzi with one hand, but with the weight you are about as unlikely to hit anything as you are firing an AR15 with one hand.
A better 9mm carbine is the Beretta storm (which ironically is based upon the Uzi). It is much lighter, has a rail for optics and lights and is far more comfortable to fire. The only thing it lacks is a suppressor option.
For some reason the storm never entered my mind on this. After doing some research on it and seeing some SBR'd versions this looks like it could be just the thing. I saw where one guy chopped the barrel and took an inch or two off of the stock and ended up with a package that was only 23.5".
For some reason the storm never entered my mind on this. After doing some research on it and seeing some SBR'd versions this looks like it could be just the thing. I saw where one guy chopped the barrel and took an inch or two off of the stock and ended up with a package that was only 23.5".
If you SBR'd it you'd also legally be able to thread the barrel. If you happened to own an M9 you'd have commonality of magazines as well. And they do make quality 20 round mags.
If you SBR'd it you'd also legally be able to thread the barrel. If you happened to own an M9 you'd have commonality of magazines as well. And they do make quality 20 round mags.
Or could just be an excuse to pick up an M9 as well. I've always wanted one.
Larry V did a whole bit on this topic its on utube check it out look under Larry Vickers
As noted, there are pros and cons to either system. The Uzi is heavy but shorter. The AR has better ergonomics and fires a more powerful cartridge, but I don't want to think about what it would sound like to shoot an SBR 5.56 indoors without ear protection.
You can put a suppressor on either, but it is going to be more effective on the Uzi. However, the sonic crack does not start to form until the bullet is 5 to 15 feet in front of the muzzle. It is possible to shoot supersonic ammo at contact distances and not have any sonic crack. So a suppressed shorty AR15 is a viable option too. On either, adding a suppressor is going to remove the benefits of having an SBR, but with the advantages noted above. The suppressor is typically a very effective flash suppressor as well.
Bullet over-penetration can be addressed through ammo selection for either caliber, so that does not have to be an issue.
You can shoot the Uzi one-handed, but it is going to be about as handy as shooting a short AR15 one-handed. Neither is going to be great, but either will work at contact distances.
The Uzi is more compact, but is not very shootable with the stock folded in. With the stock extended or with a solid stock (much more comfortable) the Uzi is still a few inches shorter than a 10" AR with stock collapsed.
As noted, you could get a 9mm AR15 SBR. This would combine many of the advantages of both the Uzi and AR15. You can use a shorter (5" or so) barrel, and the gun will be lighter than either the Uzi or a 10" AR. The Uzi with a 10.2" barrel will have slightly better ballistics than the 5" barrel.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v632/GarrettJ/102_1336.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v632/GarrettJ/102_1337.jpg
Depending on what silencer you use the overall package may be a little longer or shorter than an unsuppressed 10.5" AR15. (For comparison, the upper shown has an 11.5" barrel plus flash hider.)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v632/GarrettJ/102_1339.jpg
While there are not as many manufacturers making them, there are a few options for rail mounts on the Uzi. I have one that attaches to the bayonet lug, and is very solid. This one fits either the full-sized or Mini Uzi. I have also seen a rail that extends the full length under the full-sized handguard. Additionally, I have seen a 3-rail handguard set. Any of these would be appropriate for mounting a light and/or front grip.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v632/GarrettJ/102_1338.jpg
Again, while not as common, there are options for scope mounts. Some attach to the receiver, and others are welded to the topcover, such as the front gun in this picture. The rear gun has a rail that bolts to the topcover.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v632/GarrettJ/100_1120.jpg
The UZI takes quite a bit of training to master. It is not a very intuitive weapon and unless you spend a significant amount of range time practicing with it, you're better off with something that is easier to handle. The best overall SMG I've ever handled is still the MP-5.
That being said, the UZI is a pretty reliable and tough and snails SMG. Personally, I'd stay away from magazines that exceed 25rds. The 9mm is a tapered case, and when you stuff it into straight magazines you can run into reliability problems the longer the magazine gets. Usually the springs are incredibly stiff in order to keep them running right.....but springs get weak with time.
I vote for a SBR'd 9mm AR.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb244/a996hawk/IMG_3752.jpg
Having shot rifle caliber ARs for several years, I gotta admit I know next to nothing about 9mm AR set ups. I always thought of them as strictly range toys but am now starting to see their value as HD guns. For some reason I have in my head that they have reliablity issues. Is this truly the case? If not what sort of 9mm set up would be recommended?
Having shot rifle caliber ARs for several years, I gotta admit I know next to nothing about 9mm AR set ups. I always thought of them as strictly range toys but am now starting to see their value as HD guns. For some reason I have in my head that they have reliablity issues. Is this truly the case? If not what sort of 9mm set up would be recommended?
Mine runs trouble free and is a joy to shoot!
KalashniKEV
02-02-10, 21:58
SBR'd AR in 9mm of course!!!
I had an SBR'd Vector Uzi and I never even bought into the cool factor. It was accurate with irons, but heavy, slow to bring into action, heavy, had terrible ergos- esp with selector, and was hard to whip around... b/c it was heavy! It also didn't run 100%.
My 9mm AR is faster to bring into action and whip, doesn't have the folding stock to mess with, mounts optics solid, has perfect AR ergos- esp with selector, no goofy solutions to add a tac light, and is 100%!!
As an added benefit, you can throw on a .22 upper or a 5.56 upper w/ no additional stamps!
MP5s are nice too, and are lighter, but you lose the versatility b/c it isn't a modular weapons system and you can't mount an optic solid.
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r220/Kalashnikev/IMG_0514s.jpg
Yeah... I'm looking for BUIS...
So who makes a solid 9mm upper, and what's the most solid block to use for a standard AR lower?
[QUOTE=GarrettJ
[/QUOTE]
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v632/GarrettJ/102_1336.jpg
What are the respective barrel lenghs on these two? Also, did you build that AR upper yourself or buy it? If bought, from where?
So who makes a solid 9mm upper, and what's the most solid block to use for a standard AR lower?
Not quite sure what you mean by a "solid" upper.
You can get a 9mm upper from Spikes, CMMG, Colt, and a few others. Or you can use a standard .223 upper as well. The 9mm upper often does not have the hole for the gas tube, and may not have the relief for the bolt cam pin.
What are the respective barrel lenghs on these two? Also, did you build that AR upper yourself or buy it? If bought, from where?
The Uzi has a standard 10" (10.2"?) barrel, and the AR has a 5.5" barrel. The AR upper came from Spike's Tactical. It has a screw-on fake can. I keep it around to use as a thread protector when I don't have a can installed. I suppose I could get a flash hider for it, but this has worked fine so far.
Not quite sure what you mean by a "solid" upper.
For me solid = quality :D
KalashniKEV
02-03-10, 08:50
So who makes a solid 9mm upper, and what's the most solid block to use for a standard AR lower?
I vote RRA on the upper.
For the block, you're going to have a lot of different opinions, but here's my reasoning for the Hytech:
1) I don't need BHO b/c I'm used to AKs, and I would reload tactically if I really needed to before I lock slide/ bolt.
2) No BHO = no broken bolt catch.
3) High quality, cheap, plentiful unmodified Uzi mags.
4) Bottom loading, mounts solid w/ no adjustments and very quick to switch out.
I believe a lot of the old BS about unreliability came from people using substandard sten blocks with substandard sten mags... and then there's the "Olympic system..."
I would stay away from all that.
If you're now looking at 9mm AR's, then get a Colt 6450, and then get a 10" Colt 6430 barrel for it.
If you're now looking at 9mm AR's, then get a Colt 6450, and then get a 10" Colt 6430 barrel for it.
Thanks for the tip. Right now I think I've narrowed it down to either the SBR 9mm AR or an SBR Beretta Storm in 9mm. Of course this project will be on hold until I can finish up my Recce(ish) 5.56 build.
continuity
02-04-10, 20:32
What, if any, issues are there with a 5" vs. a 10.5" barrel on 9mm AR's. Was wondering about cycling challenges. Will attaching, or detaching, a suppressor reqiure any changes to get reliability?
Have a 10.5" barreled upper that I want to shorten to 5".
Welcome any input.
What, if any, issues are there with a 5" vs. a 10.5" barrel on 9mm AR's. Was wondering about cycling challenges. Will attaching, or detaching, a suppressor reqiure any changes to get reliability?
Have a 10.5" barreled upper that I want to shorten to 5".
Welcome any input.
My 5" runs like a top with or without the can.
CarlosDJackal
02-05-10, 21:32
I have a CMMG 9mm 7.3" 9mm upper and a Glock 34 (5.34" bbl). How much of a difference in MV do these two have? A Glock 17L has a 6.02" bbl if you want more. JM2CW.
I have a CMMG 9mm 7.3" 9mm upper and a Glock 34 (5.34" bbl). How much of a difference in MV do these two have?
A lot of it is going to depend on how tight the individual chambers, and the type of load you are shooting.
Not an exact comparison, but this should give you an idea. This is with a subsonic load I use, with a 150 gr. bullet, and Win. 231 powder. All firearms were shot with a Trident-9 installed.
5.5" AR15/9 = 971 fps.
Glock 35 w/ Lone Wolf 9mm Conversion Barrel: 1016 fps.
10.2" Uzi SMG: 1044 fps.
PhotomanM4
02-07-10, 21:15
In a strictly indoors home defense scenario what do you think about and sbr'd (9mm) Uzi( SA) verus an sbr'd AR ?
I think the 9mm SMG comes into it's own in the HD role. Would prefer that over the SBR AR. I think it's an academic discussion though as I wouldn't recommend anyone use a SMG, SBR or anything with sound suppression for HD due to legal liability issues.
Having shot rifle caliber ARs for several years, I gotta admit I know next to nothing about 9mm AR set ups. I always thought of them as strictly range toys but am now starting to see their value as HD guns. For some reason I have in my head that they have reliablity issues. Is this truly the case? If not what sort of 9mm set up would be recommended?
The straight stick mag issue mentioned earlier is about the only flaw, this is why the MP5 evolved a curved magazine. But so far I have yet to be able to make my Uzi or Colt 6450 choke. The blowback on the Colt AR 9mm is pretty simple and reliable. Only real complaint is if you drop a Colt 9mm stick mag it will probably spill a few rounds.
MP5s are nice too, and are lighter, but you lose the versatility b/c it isn't a modular weapons system and you can't mount an optic solid.
Well it isn't modular as far as going to other calibers, but as far as configuration it's far more modular than the AR system. And rock solid optics? Simply not the case, factory QD mounts do quite well and B&T mounts might as well be milled receiver rails.
continuity
02-08-10, 07:02
I think the 9mm SMG comes into it's own in the HD role. Would prefer that over the SBR AR. I think it's an academic discussion though as I wouldn't recommend anyone use a SMG, SBR or anything with sound suppression for HD due to legal liability issues.
What legal liability issues would you be refering to? IMHO a good shoot is a good shoot. Granted, a prosecutor might have an easier time painting the user of a suppressed SBR as an evil person looking to wreak havok on their fellow man, but a good shoot shouldn't get passed the grand jury. And that's if any charges are filed by the responding LE agency. I'm thinking a suppressor wouldn't be a deciding factor in whether to file charges relative such an event anyway.
continuity
02-08-10, 07:05
My 5" runs like a top with or without the can.
The short answers are often the best ones. Thanks for the input. Now I'm going back and forth on whether to go 7.5 inchs or 5 inches. Intend to suppress no matter which way it ends up. Hmmmm......
I would look into getting a MKE MP5K clone that have been recently imported and SBR it.
KalashniKEV
02-11-10, 17:20
B&T mounts might as well be milled receiver rails.
Reeeeeaallly?
Even after it falls off the roof of the HMMWV? ;)
All the pincher mounts and retrofit rails are hackjobish. 9mm AR owns it in every possible way except for perhaps compactness due to the buffer and weight.
The MKEs are going to be a nutroll too w/ adding a 3-lug, the design changes from original HK/ parts, and will they run?
9mm AR is much easier to trouble shoot when things aren't right, which isn't as often as a lot of people think.
Reeeeeaallly?
Even after it falls off the roof of the HMMWV? ;)
Depends on if it was installed competently. I've seen a G3 dropped hard enough to split the buttstock and the mount held just fine.
All the pincher mounts and retrofit rails are hackjobish. 9mm AR owns it in every possible way except for perhaps compactness due to the buffer and weight.
Original claw mounts can seem dated, but they were state of the art QD at a time when QD almost didn't exist. The AR from the same period was a carry handle screw on mount so hardly as revolutionary. In terms of modern mounts, B&T's are claws but more of a lock on mount.
And I own MP5 and Colt 9mms, I really hope you aren't suggesting the Colt blowback is as smooth and accurate as the HK.
The MKEs are going to be a nutroll too w/ adding a 3-lug, the design changes from original HK/ parts, and will they run?
You do know MKE is a HK licensed factory don't you?
9mm AR is much easier to trouble shoot when things aren't right, which isn't as often as a lot of people think.
This is very subjective. If you are familiar with the HK system you can easily trouble shoot it. If you are familiar with the Colt 9mm system you can easily trouble shoot it. It you are not familiar with either, both will be something of a mystery to you. One is hardly more complex or mysterious than the other.
If I wanted to I could nitpick a bunch of stuff about virtually any firearm. But a bunch of inconsequential gripes does not equal an inferior firearm.
I could point out the HK has a polygonal barrel which is generally recognized as superior to the ones found on Colt 9mms. I could point out Colt mags are straight so they don't feed 9mm JHP as reliably as the curved HK mags. I could point out that when dropped Colt 9mm mags have a tendency to spill rounds and HK mags do not. I could point out that HK mags are so modular you can change slide stocks to fixed stocks and railed handguards to surefire handguards without tools in seconds and the Colt can do none of these things.
And while that might make the HK stronger in some areas, it really doesn't make the Colt SMG a bad gun.
KalashniKEV
02-15-10, 16:18
Original claw mounts can seem dated, but they were state of the art QD at a time when QD almost didn't exist.
And once upon a time, the Kentucky Rifle dominated the Brown Bess for range and accuracy... It might have been awesome way, way, back in the day, but I respectfully take issue with the statement, "B&T clamp-ons might as well be machined receiver rails.
You do know MKE is a HK licensed factory don't you?
Not true. Surplussed HK tooling, but the MKE trigger box has to be opened up to HK specs, then you can't get an F/A BCG in. Not compatible.
And while that might make the HK stronger in some areas, it really doesn't make the Colt SMG a bad gun.
We'll agree to disagree, but aside from the perceived "smoothness" of the HK system, I don't think there are any other advantages. Even the ones you listed.
And once upon a time, the Kentucky Rifle dominated the Brown Bess for range and accuracy... It might have been awesome way, way, back in the day, but I respectfully take issue with the statement, "B&T clamp-ons might as well be machined receiver rails.
Just so we are on the same page, you do understand B&Ts are NOT the claw style mounts right? Seems like you are putting them in the same group as the QD claw mount.
Not true. Surplussed HK tooling, but the MKE trigger box has to be opened up to HK specs, then you can't get an F/A BCG in. Not compatible.
MKE is a licensed HK factory. I was addressing the "will they run" statement. The design was modified in order to allow an importable firearm. But the quality and reliability should remain consistent. That was the point I was making.
We'll agree to disagree, but aside from the perceived "smoothness" of the HK system, I don't think there are any other advantages. Even the ones you listed.
And that was kinda my point. Your "easier to trouble shoot" advantage is as much of a subjective non issue as the points I raised. I own both and I find I can trouble shoot one as easily as the other, not that either requires much.
KalashniKEV
02-15-10, 16:39
Not interested in going around and around, but if the mount was welded on, it wouldn't be as good as machined in. If it's held on by any other type of arrangement- with little allen screws and metal tabs, claw type, or anything else you can invent, it will not be as solid as rails that are integral to the receiver itself. That matters in the fight.
As far as the design changes, OK... it's a licensed factory. It doesn't matter if you had a German HK tech overseeing the QA/QC of every part that leaves the Turkish factory... when you whip up a few quick changes to get around some import laws, you are opening the door to problems.
I don't think what I'm saying is too controversial here, and should be obvious:
Integral rails > Retrofit rails.
HK design > Turkish mod "in an HK licensed factory"
Not interested in going around and around, but if the mount was welded on, it wouldn't be as good as machined in. If it's held on by any other type of arrangement- with little allen screws and metal tabs, claw type, or anything else you can invent, it will not be as solid as rails that are integral to the receiver itself. That matters in the fight.
And I don't think anyone is "literally" suggesting otherwise. My statement "might as well be milled receiver rails" was figurative and I thought that was obvious. My point being the mount is pretty rock solid, and as solid as most other mounts. The QD claw mount can be knocked off much easier.
As far as the design changes, OK... it's a licensed factory. It doesn't matter if you had a German HK tech overseeing the QA/QC of every part that leaves the Turkish factory... when you whip up a few quick changes to get around some import laws, you are opening the door to problems.
HK redesigned the MP5K to be importable as the SP89 and the G36 completely redone as the SL8. Didn't seem to make a reliability issue. That is all I'm saying. In any case it should be way more reliable than US clones.
I don't think what I'm saying is too controversial here, and should be obvious:
Integral rails > Retrofit rails.
HK design > Turkish mod "in an HK licensed factory"
I think we are just working out the fine points and actually agree more than we disagree.
The Dumb Gun Collector
02-17-10, 00:14
This looks like a lovely place to end this thread.;)
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