View Full Version : "Slicking Up" the Bolt Carrier
John Hearne
03-24-07, 21:12
Has anyone experimented with a specialized finish like Black-T, Duracoat, or NP3 on just the bolt carrier? My initial thought is that it would reduce friction and increase reliability at minima cost. Any experience?
Robb Jensen
03-24-07, 21:14
Lately a lot of people are having carriers finished in ROBAR NP3 which makes them a lot easier to clean. It's not necessary but if it floats your boat.............
I have not played with coating the Carrier yet. If I do get one that has a rough finish to it I just take a little crocus cloth and smooth it out. Just seems to help with the breakin a bit. I do treat all of the Bolt Carrier group with Militec before I shoot the weapon.
gotM4 - What do you know about my boat? Wanna shoot monday?
Joking aside, one Marine armorer showed me how he polished the bearing points on carriers mirror-smooth with a polishing wheel. Said it made them as smooth as a couple thousands rounds downrange. YMMV
I have 4 bolt and bolt carriers that have been NP3ed by ROBAR. This was done for a couple reasons. They all were done for free. The first was a test as I could have have something else NP#ed instead but wanted to see the difference it would make since I have had slides and barrels done in the past. the results were great. Since I carry the guns in AZ heat in trunks and unit trucks the AZ summer heat really zaps out the lube fast. I ran my Colt about 3000 rds without any lube see what would happen. No malfunctions and little carbon build up. What was there wiped off with a dry cloth. The lube is what causes the carbon and dirt to cling in the action. the others were done for the reasons I found on the first one. And again they were free (other than the match fees that won me the sponsored certificates for free ROBAR plating/metal finishing. Robar will also say that this reduction in friction due to the teflon in the NP3, reduces the heat too.
Robb Jensen
03-25-07, 10:37
gotM4 - What do you know about my boat? Wanna shoot monday?
Joking aside, one Marine armorer showed me how he polished the bearing points on carriers mirror-smooth with a polishing wheel. Said it made them as smooth as a couple thousands rounds downrange. YMMV
Don't know much about boats. I'm off Wed and Thurs. So Ted and I will be coming down to your new place.
I usually polish off an burrs on the contact areas of my carriers and bevel the tail end of it so that it doesn't tear up my buffers. I use 1000 grit wet/dry sandpaper to polish.
I like my NP3'd carrier. I need to get a bolt to match it. Cleans right up very easily and is slick as snot.
Duracoat? Does LCW make a product for "slicking up" metal or is regular Duracoat supposed to do that? I have always applied my Duracoat in such a way that I've ended up with a finish like parkerizing or phosphating- that almost smooth but textured feel of a chalkboard. It holds oil well but still needs it added.
QuietShootr
03-26-07, 21:47
Duracoat? Does LCW make a product for "slicking up" metal or is regular Duracoat supposed to do that? I have always applied my Duracoat in such a way that I've ended up with a finish like parkerizing or phosphating- that almost smooth but textured feel of a chalkboard. It holds oil well but still needs it added.
No. Duracoat is paint. Epoxy paint, to be sure, but Sherwin-Williams paint. You don't want it on a bolt.
QuietShootr
03-26-07, 21:47
Has anyone experimented with a specialized finish like Black-T, Duracoat, or NP3 on just the bolt carrier? My initial thought is that it would reduce friction and increase reliability at minima cost. Any experience?
I've had several finished in Black-T. Seems to be slicker than snot. NP3 would be a good choice too, though.
I know what Duracoat is and it isn't just paint. I was wondering if they were offering something "new" is all.
Robb Jensen
03-27-07, 07:51
I know what Duracoat is and it isn't just paint. I was wondering if they were offering something "new" is all.
I wouldn't apply Duracoat to a bolt carrier personally. I might spray one with Norrells or GunKote as these two finishes can handle the heat better than Duracoat.
LWRC is using a Black-T type finish (teflon) on some of their carriers now. Others carriers available new are hardchromed, TiN (titanium, these are the gold pimpy looking carriers).
How about a hair dryer and Militec?
I might spray one with Norrells or GunKote as these two finishes can handle the heat better than Duracoat.
I've done a few carrier with Norrells, and they run smooth, but these were used carriers. No way in the world would I use Duracoat (Sherwin Williams Polane-T), its too thick and doesn't have any lubricating properties I'm away of (unless you pour it on the floor).
I've been using miltec on my issue M4 for the past year. I use it here in the deserts of western Iraq where the “sand” is so fine it creeps into everything given enough time. The “sand” here resembles powdered sugar more so than the sand you would find on a beach.
Since I treat my weapon with miltec I run my M4 dry ALL THE TIME. I use no lube whatsoever -a good baked on coating of miltec seems to do the trick. Admittedly, I haven't had to fire more than 120 rounds through my weapon before a cleaning so I can't speak to the effectiveness of running an M4 with miltec treatment dry through copious amounts of ammunition. That is why I carry small "emergency" bottle of CLP in case I really get into the shit and need to lube my weapon.
But really, if you are going to get into an engagement here in western Iraq more than likely you will do one of three things:
1. not fire a single round because it will be over before it started
2. not fire a single round because of the threat of precision fire -you will let your gunner handle it from the turret of your HMMWV with his long range crew serve weapon
3. fire one or two magazines before it is over
My one complaint about miltec is that if you use any sort of cleaner that is worth a shit on your weapon it will take the miltec with it, which means you need to reapply your miltec (I give it 2 good baked on coatings). A more permanent coating is something I would be very interested in.
With that said I find he NP3 treatment by ROBAR intriguing. I may look into getting my personal M4 bolt treated after my 16 month tour is over and I make it back to the states. Assuming I still have fingers to pull the trigger, that is.
I don't love LCW by any means- most of their stuff sucks, but why the negativite tone towards DC just because it's Polane-T from Sherwin Williams? Is it because SW has retail outlets that sell house paint? Polane-T isn't house paint.
Lately a lot of people are having carriers finished in ROBAR NP3 which makes them a lot easier to clean.
They're difficult to clean otherwise? :D
I don't love LCW by any means- most of their stuff sucks, but why the negativite tone towards DC just because it's Polane-T from Sherwin Williams? Is it because SW has retail outlets that sell house paint? Polane-T isn't house paint.
Its a 2 part industrial epoxy, and I like it fine within certain applications. This would not be one of those.
Thermal cure coatings such as KG or Norrells will simply work better due to having dry lube properties, as well as the ability to hold oils. They also spray on much thinner, which results in no problems with tolerances.
The emerging and current ceramic coatings are a better all around bet for weapon exteriors, though I confess I'm not aware of internal coatings with them.
Yes, I did say DC would not work well in this application and that when I apply it, it is far from slick or smooth. I did hint that it feels like park so it might hold oil but I knew that wasn't the intent of the OP and his question. He wants something that is inherently lubricative (?) in nature.
As for Duracoat on the bolt as others have said, is not recommended. I KG Gunkoated my Bolt carrier and the inside of my upper. I then Duracoated the outside of the carbine and a small amount of over spray wound up on the inside of the upper through the ejection port. Curious to see if it would have any effect I left it alone. The Duracoat wore away very quickly where as the GunKote did not.
For what it is worth gunKoting a bolt does make it slicker in the upper. I think NP3 is going to be my next experiment .
IPSC_GUY
SIERRA II ALPHA
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-11-09, 00:23
Somebody told me it was a secret that Duracoat was SW Polane? Damn, I'm not special.
Polane is a 2k polyurethane (polyester + Isocyanate), not an epoxy 2K (Bis A + amine/polyamide). That's not a dig against Polane, good stuff, just not what I'd want on a high wear part. SW has way more than just house paint.
I've always thought NP3 might be a good coating for the BCG but I've held off because, other than easier cleaning, I've not seen any conclusive testing that shows that it would make the BCG run more reliably for longer periods.
Has anyone run any tests to see how much difference in reliability a BCG that's NP3 or coated with another product compared to a standard BCG?
They're difficult to clean otherwise? :D
Exactly my thought. :confused:
And I've never felt that carrier friction in the upper was an issue. ;)
Good lube of choice gets my bolt nice 'n slick!
Has anyone experimented with a specialized finish like Black-T, Duracoat, or NP3 on just the bolt carrier? My initial thought is that it would reduce friction and increase reliability at minima cost. Any experience?
Yes, Titanium Aluminum Nitride and Tungsten Diamond Like Carbon. It's not necessary for the bolt carrier but I still like having the bolts and extractors done as you can see any carbon build up (if you use Titainum Nitride = bright gold). I'd do the same with Gas Pistons and Bolts on AKMs and gas piston AR-15s.
I have had a few pistols that were partially, or completely refinished with Robar's NP3. It is a fantastic finish for heavy friction/wear applications.
I plan to have the next BCG I purchase for my new upper build done in NP3. The only part that I dont plan to have NP3'ed will be the extractor. I just dont think the "claw" of the extractor is something I want to be slicker than snot....
What about ion bonding?
I have a LMT Bolt that has been treated by Ion Bond with their "Diamond-Like Coating" (DLC). Cost about $75. While it is noticeably slicker than my non-coated BCGs, it still requires lube. When clean, it looks almost like when it came back from Ion Bond - though there is some wear on contact surfaces. I do find that it cleans much easier than my other bolts - carbon does still stick to the bolt tail, but it seems like less sticks after a shooting session and the amount that does flakes off with little effort. It does not 'wipe' clean though - it still needs some elbow grease - but it cleans up considerably faster than my standard bolts.
For me it was worth the $75.
dentarthurdent
05-12-09, 13:45
Does the chromed exterior of the BCG like Young's help in this regard?
Thomas M-4
05-12-09, 16:35
Does the chromed exterior of the BCG like Young's help in this regard?
YES it does
I have a LMT Bolt that has been treated by Ion Bond with their "Diamond-Like Coating" (DLC). Cost about $75. While it is noticeably slicker than my non-coated BCGs, it still requires lube. When clean, it looks almost like when it came back from Ion Bond - though there is some wear on contact surfaces. I do find that it cleans much easier than my other bolts - carbon does still stick to the bolt tail, but it seems like less sticks after a shooting session and the amount that does flakes off with little effort. It does not 'wipe' clean though - it still needs some elbow grease - but it cleans up considerably faster than my standard bolts.
For me it was worth the $75.
Thanks, I was curious.
Smuckatelli
05-12-09, 22:41
Honest question, is there really a need for slicking up the BCG in addition to CLP type lube?
Honest question, is there really a need for slicking up the BCG in addition to CLP type lube?
Need? Nope.
Ion Bonding is your friend--- :D
Yes, Titanium Aluminum Nitride and Tungsten Diamond Like Carbon. It's not necessary for the bolt carrier but I still like having the bolts and extractors done as you can see any carbon build up (if you use Titainum Nitride = bright gold). I'd do the same with Gas Pistons and Bolts on AKMs and gas piston AR-15s.
Forgot: IonBond in SC is the source for the services. Ask for Ryan.
I recently had my Noveske Recon BCG coated in IonBond DLC through Springer Precision (http://www.springerprecision.com/), which I understand is now something of an official gateway to the IonBond custom shop. This was the second BCG I've had coated by IonBond, the previous being a LMT. I thought I'd post some comparison pics showing the brand new BCG with DLC, the LMT with DLC (which has several thousand rounds of mileage), and a friend's unaltered RRA Bolt (which has less than a thousand rounds of use) for comparison purposes.
Here's the newly coated Noveske BCG...
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x131/JSGlock34/BCG2.jpg
Closeup of the new Noveske bolt...
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x131/JSGlock34/BCG3.jpg
Left to Right - RRA Bolt, LMT Bolt with DLC, Noveske Bolt with DLC
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x131/JSGlock34/BCG5.jpg
Closeup of the Bolt Tails (RRA Bolt, LMT Bolt with DLC, Noveske Bolt with DLC)
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x131/JSGlock34/BCG6.jpg
Closeup of the Bolt Face (RRA Bolt, LMT Bolt with DLC, Noveske Bolt with DLC)
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x131/JSGlock34/BCG7.jpg
Closeup of the Cam Pins (RRA pin, LMT pin with DLC, Noveske pin with DLC)
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x131/JSGlock34/BCG4.jpg
I don't have any empirical data that can speak to any improvement in reliability or functionality by coating the BCG; I can only share my impressions. I have found the BCG treated by Ion Bond easier to clean - it seems like carbon does not stick to it as much as the untreated bolts, and the carbon that does stick comes off with a little bit of effort. The bolt is noticably slicker. I wouldn't say the LMT Bolt with DLC still looks like new, but I was suprised to see how little it has worn when I compare it to the newly coated Noveske BCG. The uncoated RRA bolt - though it has seen much less use, at least appears like it has seen many more rounds (especially when comparing the cam pins, bolt faces and bolt tails).
The coating service cost $75 and took about three weeks to turnaround. It is certainly not necessary, but to me the modest benefits to the cleaning process were worth the minor expense.
Good pictures, thankyou, they certainly make a point.
EzGoingKev
06-13-09, 19:28
Yes, Titanium Aluminum Nitride and Tungsten Diamond Like Carbon. It's not necessary for the bolt carrier but I still like having the bolts and extractors done as you can see any carbon build up (if you use Titainum Nitride = bright gold). I'd do the same with Gas Pistons and Bolts on AKMs and gas piston AR-15s.
One thing I noticed in Magpul's video was how visible the chrome bolt was on Travis's rifle. If you had any type of stoppage you could instantly see the bolt's disposition. While this might be a non-issue for most, as I have gotten older I have developed an issue when quickly trying discerning multiple objects of the same color, everything tends to blend into one.
Personally myself, I think a chrome coated carrier for the higher visibility and easier cleaning is the way to go. I would then like to coat the bolt, cam pin, and the inside portion of the carrier where the bolt and rings come in contact with DLC for better wear properties.
Razorhunter
06-13-09, 20:23
Isn't it BLACK in color, and looks kind of shiny jet blackish? Is this correct?
Where all can you get a BCG Robar NP3 coated? I mean, are there a number of places, or only one place? Price?
Would you want to NP3 the COMPLETE BCG or just the carrier ONLY???
What say guys?
Good pictures, thankyou, they certainly make a point.
Thanks Stick! I've been enjoying your pictures for years. Since you stopped by the thread, I thought I'd ask how your evaluation (http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?t=868) of the Fail Zero BCG is coming? I have an interest in the various bolt coatings, and the Fail Zero is probably the most ambitious of the competing coatings available. I'm quite curious to see if the upcoming military trials feature any DI designs with a BCG designed for easy cleaning and self lubricating properties.
I also happened to notice this (http://www.failzero.com/action-reports/17-exo-coated-knights-armament-bcg-with-3500-rounds-unlubricated-used-by-chris-costa-in-vickers-tactical-class-shootout.html) (copied below) on the Fail Zero homepage, so perhaps someone can ask Mr. Costa to share his findings in this thread?
EXO coated Knight’s Armament BCG with 3500 rounds unlubricated used by Chris Costa in Vickers Tactical class shootout.
Vickers Tactical put on an invite only class for M4C and invited guests the weekend of March 14, 2009. Chris Costa of Magpul Dynamics walked away with top honors in the match after performing extremely well on the shooting stages. Chris shot very well throughout the class and managed to claim top spot in a lot of drills. Chris was using a Knight’s Armament bolt carrier group coated with EXO technology. He has over 3500 rounds on this BCG and has not lubricated it. Just clean and go. Congratulations Chris, on the great shooting. Keep us informed as you continue with your test firing.
JSGLOCK34, was the chrome lining on the inside of the bolt carrier stripped off and replaced with the Ion-Bond treatment?
JSGLOCK34, was the chrome lining on the inside of the bolt carrier stripped off and replaced with the Ion-Bond treatment?
Good question - I had to go look. On the newly coated carrier, the answer is yes, absolutely. The interior of the carrier is uniformly coated in DLC. On the older carrier, it appears that the chrome lining was not stripped, but it appears that some DLC did adhere near the openings (which I'm somewhat confused by, as I thought the chrome lining prevented the DLC). I'm not sure what this is indicative of - perhaps Ion Bond has improved its preparation and coating procedure in the past two years. Or perhaps my first carrier was either incompletely prepared or coated. In any case, I've noticed no problems, and the more recent carrier is completely coated.
EzGoingKev
06-16-09, 07:25
Good question - I had to go look. On the newly coated carrier, the answer is yes, absolutely. The interior of the carrier is uniformly coated in DLC. On the older carrier, it appears that the chrome lining was not stripped, but it appears that some DLC did adhere near the openings (which I'm somewhat confused by, as I thought the chrome lining prevented the DLC). I'm not sure what this is indicative of - perhaps Ion Bond has improved its preparation and coating procedure in the past two years. Or perhaps my first carrier was either incompletely prepared or coated. In any case, I've noticed no problems, and the more recent carrier is completely coated.
DLC can be applied on top of chrome.
Somebody told me it was a secret that Duracoat was SW Polane? Damn, I'm not special.
Polane is a 2k polyurethane (polyester + Isocyanate), not an epoxy 2K (Bis A + amine/polyamide). That's not a dig against Polane, good stuff, just not what I'd want on a high wear part. SW has way more than just house paint.
My brother, who paints commercial and private aircraft professionally, is in the process of painting my latest SPR build. He had never heard of Duracoat previously, but when he mixed it up and shot it the first time, he swore to me it was identical to Polane by Sherwin Williams. He uses Polane several times a week exclusively on airplane props, where an extremely tough/flexible/abrasion-resistant coating (vs hard/brittle like most epoxies) coating is essential. He said he had never used any color of Polane but grey before.
His observations gave me greater confidence in Duracoat. Years back I did a renovation of Sherwin William's paint factory in Columbus, OH, including new tanks, platforms, mixers and controls, besides the QA lab. Sherwin Williams is a top-notch company that makes more than just housepaint. Many of their high-tech products are not available to consumers.
I shot an email to Springer Precision regarding the Ionbond and the chrome lining in the bolt carrier. He said that it is applied directly to the chrome lining.
I shot an email to Springer Precision regarding the Ionbond and the chrome lining in the bolt carrier. He said that it is applied directly to the chrome lining.
My misunderstanding then. I had thought that the chrome lining had to come off for the IonBond. In any case, the carrier that just came back is uniformly coated on the interior. Springer and Ion Bond did nice work. This makes sense though and better explains my older carrier.
I have been a Contract painter for about 9 years with a lot of SW Polane ,I have painted countertops ( I Use a HVLP set-up sprayed two sets at a APT complex today) and It is a Very good product .Not sure I would use it on my BCG .But there are Alot of different Products from SW that could fit the task.I will have to ask tomorrow I have to go pick up a Gallon of Polane.MMMMM :confused:
My Mix is say 8oz Paint
4oz reducer
2oz Hardener
squirt of Sil -a-check for eliminating fish eyes in the finish ,
it gets hard as a rock but I have had to go and repaint due to wear over time or some dumbass that sits a hot pot on the counter.
wilsoncombatrep
06-17-09, 07:53
Folks,
We believe that there is an advantage in ease of maintenance and performance in plating your BCG. Wilson Combat included BCG's treated with Robar's NP3 in all our AR's.
Thanks Stick! I've been enjoying your pictures for years. Since you stopped by the thread, I thought I'd ask how your evaluation (http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?t=868) of the Fail Zero BCG is coming? I have an interest in the various bolt coatings, and the Fail Zero is probably the most ambitious of the competing coatings available. I'm quite curious to see if the upcoming military trials feature any DI designs with a BCG designed for easy cleaning and self lubricating properties.
I also happened to notice this (http://www.failzero.com/action-reports/17-exo-coated-knights-armament-bcg-with-3500-rounds-unlubricated-used-by-chris-costa-in-vickers-tactical-class-shootout.html) (copied below) on the Fail Zero homepage, so perhaps someone can ask Mr. Costa to share his findings in this thread?
EXO coated Knight’s Armament BCG with 3500 rounds unlubricated used by Chris Costa in Vickers Tactical class shootout.
Vickers Tactical put on an invite only class for M4C and invited guests the weekend of March 14, 2009. Chris Costa of Magpul Dynamics walked away with top honors in the match after performing extremely well on the shooting stages. Chris shot very well throughout the class and managed to claim top spot in a lot of drills. Chris was using a Knight’s Armament bolt carrier group coated with EXO technology. He has over 3500 rounds on this BCG and has not lubricated it. Just clean and go. Congratulations Chris, on the great shooting. Keep us informed as you continue with your test firing.
Here's Mr. Costa's response! Thanks again, Chris!
It has about 5,000 rounds through the new coating.
1. I clean it every 1,200
2. I, I oil the bolt only, it's mechanical so it does help if you put well over 1,000 rounds without cleaning it.
3. It does clean fast.
4. Don't think this is going to get you out of cleaning, the standard gun has allot of gas that does start to coat and dirty everything in the chamber area, but there coating will assist in long term shooing and no cleaning for emergency situations.
5. There coating for certain piston manufactures is awesome and does just wipe off, but that is a different platform.
6. when I first got it I put over one thousand rounds through it with no oil in my upper or on the BCG, however follow #2 and you'll never have a problem
Just remember, on gas guns you still need to give a little TLC.
best
Christopher E. Costa
Magpul Dynamics LLC.
Director Of Training
904-704-1970
www.magpuldynamics.com
My brother, who paints commercial and private aircraft professionally, is in the process of painting my latest SPR build. He had never heard of Duracoat previously, but when he mixed it up and shot it the first time, he swore to me it was identical to Polane by Sherwin Williams. He uses Polane several times a week exclusively on airplane props, where an extremely tough/flexible/abrasion-resistant coating (vs hard/brittle like most epoxies) coating is essential. He said he had never used any color of Polane but grey before.
His observations gave me greater confidence in Duracoat. Years back I did a renovation of Sherwin William's paint factory in Columbus, OH, including new tanks, platforms, mixers and controls, besides the QA lab. Sherwin Williams is a top-notch company that makes more than just housepaint. Many of their high-tech products are not available to consumers.
I have read that Duracoat is actually Sherwin Williams Polane, but I don't remember where I read it.
Thomas M-4
06-23-09, 15:33
Can Ion Bonding be applied to a carbine buffer.
Also can Ion Bonding be applied to LMT enhanced bolt.
EzGoingKev
06-23-09, 15:35
Can Ion Bonding be applied to a carbine buffer.
Also can Ion Bonding be applied to LMT enhanced bolt.
Yes it can.
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