HAITI

[VooDoo6Actual]

NPR Two Way Link:


http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/01/haiti_hit_with_7_magnitude_ear.html


http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/01/from_haiti_heartbreaking_photo.html


another "Turd World Country" to spend money on...


May be OCONUS soon as my OP Tempo and "offers" have picked up considerably...:p

[Business_Casual]

I would think there would be a lot of security work there right now as well.

M_P

[decodeddiesel]

While the shear loss of human life I'm sure will be staggering when estimates come in, I can't help but imagine what sort of dollar amounts we as a nation will be flushing away on an essentially anti-US third world country.

ETA: Let me preface this by saying that I believe helping the people of Haiti is the humanitarian thing to do. No doubt. However I am very fearful as to how the current administration is going to go about this whole thing that it will turn into a massive fraudulent waste and abuse of American money and assets.

[SteyrAUG]

Let's not forget the thousands who will be given permission to enter the US and will bring their third world standard of existence with them and lower the quality of life for every American they come into contact with.

[Business_Casual]

No, no, they would have to waive the anti-Haiti immigration rules put in place to contain AIDS by the Reagan... oh, what am I saying? It's the Obama administration, they'll waive regulations for anything.

M_P

[Nathan_Bell]

3 days to make a comment on the Underwear bomber, elbows people out of the way to make a comment on Haiti.

WTF is wrong with the POTUS?

[Outlander Systems]

This makes me want to call my buddy in the "Knee-Deep Navy".

He's constantly bitching about "...****in' Haitians, dude!"

[John_Wayne777]

Note that some posts have been removed from this thread.

If folks want to debate the issues raised by this event that's fine...but the next "drowning kittens" style remark buys the speaker an instant infraction.

[BiggLee71]

Montana, I'm sure we all understand your logic. It is very sad that there are mass casualties with this incident but thats just the way of the world. It sucks but it happens. Thats life.


Now lets get geared up and go make some money over there!!!!

[RogerinTPA]

It is a terrible thing to lose human life at any scale, but this is a natural occurrence. We cannot prevent natural disasters from happening. Just like the tsunami in Thailand. We cannot change the culture/economics of a third world country affected by said disaster, no matter how much money we throw at it. More than likely, the aid will be siphoned off and the majority of the funds stolen. We need to stop providing humanitarian assistance to everyone but our allies and let the countries in the affected region and the UN deal with it. We have our own problems.

[Safetyhit]

I'm sure it's nothing a little Voodoo can't fix.

[Nathan_Bell]

I'm sure it's nothing a little Voodoo can't fix.

gris-gris must not have soaked in the rooster's blood long enough.

[montanadave]

Note that some posts have been removed from this thread.

If folks want to debate the issues raised by this event that's fine...but the next "drowning kittens" style remark buys the speaker an instant infraction.

The logic by which one comment is deemed acceptable while another is judged worthy of an "infraction" escapes me. In light of the tragedy currently taking place in Haiti, the general tone and tenor of the majority of comments on this thread is reprehensible, reflecting an insensitivity and callousness towards the suffering of others which is simply beyond the pale. It makes me sick to my stomach.

If that earns an infraction, so be it.

[Business_Casual]

Making light of tragedy is how many people deal with it.

So... deal with it.

M_P

[Outlander Systems]

The logic by which one comment is deemed acceptable while another is judged worthy of an "infraction" escapes me. In light of the tragedy currently taking place in Haiti, the general tone and tenor of the majority of comments on this thread is reprehensible, reflecting an insensitivity and callousness towards the suffering of others which is simply beyond the pale. It makes me sick to my stomach.

If that earns an infraction, so be it.

Nevermind.

[andre3k]

Any country with a city named Bangkok was a must save. I guess Haiti, not so much. I don't think the prostitutes and ladyboys there would interest middle aged white men as much. :confused:

[Outlander Systems]

Any country with a city named Bangkok was a must save. I guess Haiti, not so much. I don't think the prostitutes and ladyboys there would interest middle aged white men as much. :confused:

Don't even get me started on Thailand stories...

[John_Wayne777]

The logic by which one comment is deemed acceptable while another is judged worthy of an "infraction" escapes me.

From the site rules:



1) Derogatory Remarks – Please do not post any comments that are intentional personal attacks against other members. (Including, but not limited to, name calling, comments of a racial, religious or sexual nature.) Debate is welcome and encouraged. Personal attacks, and name calling, serve no purpose in the exchange and debate of good information. Please be respectful to your fellow shooting enthusiasts whether they are new shooters or seasoned veterans.

6) Trolling – Posting comments with the purpose to start conflicts with members, libel persons or groups, or to disrupt the overall running of the forum will not be allowed.


There's nothing mystical about it. If you can't make a point without being insulting, keep your opinion to yourself or risk getting booted off the site. There are lots of opinions expressed on this site that I don't like...but you don't see me making broad insulting statements at the board or the posters in a thread. You can disagree, but do so without being disagreeable. You seem to struggle with that concept more than most.

[GMZ]

Just found out my girl's ship might go down there for 3 ****ing weeks :mad:

[variablebinary]

Makes me sick to think of all human the life lost, especially the kids. Drudge posted something about 500,000.

I helped raise money for a legit charity and humanitarian group after the tsunami. I'll do the same here.

[John_Wayne777]

Given that much of Hati's architecture would stand up to a 7.0 quake about as well as a balsawood barrier would to a freight train, estimates at least in the tens of thousands seem reasonable to me. Hopefully it doesn't reach 500,000.

[Iraqgunz]

As much as the loss of life is tragic, we really have our own issues to deal with right now. I would love to see the big mouth Chavez, Evo Morales or some of those other douches who claim to care so much for humanity to put their money where their big mouth is and do something.

We have intervened and dicked around in Haiti one too many times.

[shittercrewchief]

Prayers out to the Marines and Sailors soon to be on the ground yet another time on that nasty island.

Hey chavez wheres your oil money!

[Outlander Systems]

Haiti must be cursed. If I'm not mistaken, this time last year they were eating mud/rice cakes.

[Alpha Sierra]

As much as the loss of life is tragic, we really have our own issues to deal with right now. I would love to see the big mouth Chavez, Evo Morales or some of those other douches who claim to care so much for humanity to put their money where their big mouth is and do something.

We have intervened and dicked around in Haiti one too many times.

+1

Not our problem.

[Alpha Sierra]

Haiti must be cursed. If I'm not mistaken, this time last year they were eating mud/rice cakes.

Pat Roberstson was onto something today.

[MarshallDodge]

It is a sad situation, my prayers go out to those in pain.

The really sad thing is that we, as a country, did not give a rat's behind about Haiti until thousands of people died. Now it's priority one. :rolleyes:

[Alpha Sierra]

The really sad thing is that we, as a country, did not give a rat's behind about Haiti until thousands of people died.
THEY don't give a shit about themselves.

Haiti has been an independent nation since 1804. WTF do they have to show for 206 years of self-rule?

[The Dumb Gun Collector]

Personally, I think we should go help them. We are the only people that will, and it is the decent thing to do.

What I would not do is assist the UN. We have been burned by that scam one too many times. Every piece of aid that goes into that country should have an American flag on it.

And, in my personal, individual opinion, Pat Robertson is an asshat.

[fog0fwar]

Having been to Haiti twice on church / missions trips I can say that it is a very dirty little country. But we should be compelled to help our fellow man whenever the need arises. Whether by food/water/medical supplies, it is the, "decent," thing to do.

Let me premise that with saying I agree that our aid should be controlled by US. If other countries wish to help out, great, but the whole show should be run by US. A lot of people will recognize the fact that the US is helping them out, and may be somewhat grateful in the future.

Unfortunately I predict this will invariably turn into a huge goat screw and most of the resources will be mismanaged and squandered. Once the resources leave the control of the US the Haitian way of commerce will take over and crime/corruption will be the rule.

I do applaud and salute all of the US personnel which are about to head into the cesspool that the quake created in Haiti and I pray, "Godspeed."

Fog

[CBTech]

Personally, I think we should go help them. We are the only people that will, and it is the decent thing to do.

What I would not do is assist the UN. We have been burned by that scam one too many times. Every piece of aid that goes into that country should have an American flag on it.

And, in my personal, individual opinion, Pat Robertson is an asshat.

I had a French teacher who was from Haiti. He said the Haitians hate the UN because the UN "peacekeepers sent there some years ago were raping thier goats.
I want to say it was Bangladesh. I do know it was a SE Asian muslim country they were from. They didn't want to touch the women because of fear of disease or upsetting alluh.

[CBTech]

>>> I absolutely agree. What happened to good old American values? Have you gentlemen made bad experiences with Haitians?
.............
Is this the appropriate time to make a political issue out of this and blaming everything on Obama again?

Well, you never know, they could be from S. Florida. They have kind of ruined it there.

On the POTUS thing..... I understand the issue some have with that. 3 days to come out of the bunker about the Christmas terrorist, slowing the report on Ft. Hood and when he went ther after a how many days the people he did meet with says he had an "I don't give a shit attitude"?

Now, as someone said, he's elbowing people out of the way to get to the mic on this?

But I digress, we should help the Haitian people and not delay care. They are our neighbors and what happens there affects us. National security and tragedy in our own backyard (Ft Hood) should also be met with the same swiftness though.

[Business_Casual]

>>> I absolutely agree. What happened to good old American values? Have you gentlemen made bad experiences with Haitians? Because from what I am hearing, I sense strong antipathy towards these already impoverished people, who have been in a miserable state for almost two hundred years.
Estimates from BBC claim that 30K-50K have been killed. Is this the appropriate time to make a political issue out of this and blaming everything on Obama again?

Wow, you really don't know anything about the history of Haiti do you?

Oh, and Obama waited three days to talk about the guy working for the people trying to kill me and mine. He waited about 3 nanoseconds to talk about a disaster in a country that has been a source of crime, corruption, poverty and misery in our hemisphere for centuries. I understand that we should be open to helping those in need, but if they have previously proven to squander the support they are lended, at what point do you stop trying to help them? I guess we try one more time.

M_P

[John_Wayne777]

>>> I absolutely agree. What happened to good old American values? Have you gentlemen made bad experiences with Haitians? Because from what I am hearing, I sense strong antipathy towards these already impoverished people, who have been in a miserable state for almost two hundred years.


Some of that antipathy may be a result of some folks having been sent to Hati on numerous missions of mercy while employed by the US government only to be treated like dirt by the people they were there to help. "Hatian Vacations" weren't much fun for the Coasties who had to deal with boatloads of refugees who often attacked them, including spitting blood in their faces in a deliberate attempt to infect them with one of the many funderful diseases on the boat. There is a reason why "security" is coming up as a concern in the immediate aftermath of the earthquake even in the mainstream press...because everybody knows that if the Marines aren't there prepared to bust some heads bad things will happen.

Hati stays in a miserable state because the people of hati make stupid decisions on a continual basis.

...the same way Chicago or Detroit is in a miserable state because the people there continually elect crooks.

Does that mean we don't help them? Of course not. The US will invest considerable resources in the effort to help Hati...but let's not forget that we've been to Hati on multiple occasions to help with one issue or another and have been given the finger for doing so.

[khc3]

THEY don't give a shit about themselves.

Haiti has been an independent nation since 1804. WTF do they have to show for 206 years of self-rule?

And even then, some of their most stable and prosperous years were when US Marines were running things.

[d90king]

Lets say you wanted to go help as an American (not me) could you bring a weapon for self defense?

It is a tragedy, but I hope all those folks don't show up here...

[Boss Hogg]

Might this mark the return of a Baby Doc? I remember seeing a picture of him getting ousted, and they were rolling in a BMW 745i way back in 1985. That was exotic gear back then. The nicest 7 offered in the US was a 735i.

I don't know what to think of the fact that the two biggest catastrophes in recent history in the Western Hemisphere hit two cities noted for Afro-Caribbean/French Creole/Voodoo culture: New Orleans and Port-au-Prince.

[andre3k]

Hati stays in a miserable state because the people of hati make stupid decisions on a continual basis.

...the same way Chicago or Detroit is in a miserable state because the people there continually elect crooks.



So basically you're saying that poor black people **** shit up wherever they go. Don't take this the wrong way because I'm certainly not offended by it. But instead of beating around the bush speaking in generalities just say what you mean. Outwardly it would seem as if the evidence was there to support a view like this. Look at Somalia, pretty much any other african nation (with the exception of S. Africa), haiti, and to bring it home New Orleans, DC, and Chicago. So it does seem like that any country full of black people and run by black people seems to turn into cesspool. The only reason that S. Africa is fairly stable and prosperous is because of the whites controlling it and the years of apartheid that kept the blacks under control.

I've always wondered why there are no predominately white third world countries? Hmmmmm.

[John_Wayne777]

So basically you're saying that poor black people **** shit up wherever they go. Don't take this the wrong way because I'm certainly not offended by it. But instead of beating around the bush speaking in generalities just say what you mean.


:rolleyes: I said exactly what I mean:

People who make stupid decisions about government and daily life dig their own hole and, upon discovery that they are in a hole, often continue to dig.

It's true in Somalia, Hati, China, and the United States, both on a local AND NATIONAL LEVEL.

Mayor Daley isn't mayor just because he got the minority vote, you know...

[Business_Casual]

I guess this won't end well.

M_P

[andre3k]

I guess this won't end well.

M_P

I'm not a troll man, I just speak my mind. I said what I had to say, not much more for me to add to the thread at this point. But if I'm wrong in any of the examples that I provided please feel free to counter those points with some evidence to the contrary.

[WillBrink]

NPR Two Way Link:



May be OCONUS soon as my OP Tempo and "offers" have picked up considerably...:p

The last time we went there to help them stabilize their situation (do they even have a working government to this day?) with troops and relief, they met us at the docks with guns and machetes. Now they are wiling to take our help? As with most of the dirt bag countries, most of the $$$ and aid will end up in some warlords place where he will sell it back to his own people. Aid, without adequate security, is usually a cluster fu*&. :rolleyes:

[variablebinary]

I've always wondered why there are no predominately white third world countries? Hmmmmm.

We have a white 3rd world territory right here in the Appalachian, USA, which only in the last couple of decades has seen improvements significant enough to join the economic mainstream...after tons of welfare, handouts, and government subsidies.

I'm not sure how relevant that is to anything though since Haiti was decimated by an earthquake. I didn't know race determined who got hit by natural disasters

[BiggLee71]

Hey guys, it seems weird to me that our country is falling over themselves to go help out down there but it took a more laxadasical attitude towards the Katrina victims.:confused:

[d90king]

Hey guys, it seems weird to me that our country is falling over themselves to go help out down there but it took a more laxadasical attitude towards the Katrina victims.:confused:

Could be that you are dealing with a nation that can do nothing to help itself. Katrina was in a state that should have been able to do much more than they did, considering the amount of time they had to prepare and based upon how long they waited to allow the federal gov to come in and help them.

Or you can just blame Bush like everybody else.:rolleyes:

[Striker5]

I think we should help, becuase that is what Americans do while the world wrings its hands. As others have stated, it should be US run and tightly monitored. The only way Obama can screw this up is to try to bring the rest of the world, or even just the hemisphere, on board. Then it will degenerate into a corrupt, top heavy abortion.

As to Haiti, the only thing that sets them apart is that they are neighbors. Crap hole African countries have disasters and we don't do anything about them. I have never been there but no several people that have and it is not positive. My favorite was "Haiti is the only place I have ever been that has human road kill." Even the Iraqis and the Afghans don't leave bodies laying around. The single connecting thread for the third world is the idea that the second an individual has any power or wisdom, they immediately screw everyone around them with it.

My church had a missionary team visit, to ask for money. The man was very forthright about the fact that their preaching school in Zambia had been a disaster. They trained up a few classes of students who immediately started a bunch of cults nabbing all the money and tagging all the wives within reach. They now have a probationary system where they work the crap out of a preacher candidate for two years before they start the course of study.

As to Haiti, we should do it because of what we are about, not what they are about.

[MIKE G]

Here is my perspective on the Haiti incident.

Haiti is a crap hole on a good day and much due to its own actions. Wasted natural resources, short term focused, me me me attitude. It reminds me heavily of some other third/fourth world nationals I have dealt with. Go to the other side of the island and you will see a country that is much more organized, focused, and prosperous. Why? The people have had a taste of capitalism and have invested in the "what can I do for myself long term?" and not "what can I get today, preferably for free?"

This disaster may be a turning point for the country but I doubt it.

Should we help? Yes, it is what we do because we are good and honorable people. Should non-emergent support come from tax dollars? Not really in my opinion. Emergent aid should be covered by tax dollars to an extent as it is a good opportunity for agencies to refine response plans and get some solid FOR REAL practice at skills for when a disaster hits us here in the US. FEMA USAR/DMAT teams dont need to sit on the shelf, they need to get actual experience so that they can better respond to the next 9/11 or Katrina.

Has this been politicized? Yeah, like it or not, perspective is everything and when it takes days to address a self-admitted terrorist act and hours to respond to a natural disaster (and we were still behind other countries on the response to Haiti) the appearance is that disaster response to another nation is more important than the stability and security of the US. This is inappropriate.

Could we improve the way money is spent in disasters/aid sent to other countries? Yes. Encourage more products to be built in the US so that when events occur and we spend millions of dollars on equipment, water, food, medicine, gear, tents, etc, etc it will stimulate the US economy directly and not China or other widget manufacturing countries.

As well, much of the non-emergent recovery should be handled by charity and international organizations allowing people who want to donate and can afford to donate, do so. This is preferable to adding to our current debt, one day we may get hit hard and not have the capital to recover. I know, tough thing to think of but must be considered.

[Business_Casual]

Obama is asking Bush to head up relief efforts, apparently.

Now I really feel bad for those people.

M_P

[Safetyhit]

That place is Karma in effect. Not because they are black, but because they are morally foul, violent and corrupt.

And they don't build up to code.

[R/Tdrvr]

"Hatian Vacations" weren't much fun for the Coasties who had to deal with boatloads of refugees who often attacked them, including spitting blood in their faces in a deliberate attempt to infect them with one of the many funderful diseases on the boat.

I can speak from experience on that one. It sucked. That's all I need to say.

[soldiersystems]

I would say that I am unimpressed by 90% of what I have read here. I speak Kreyol and spent a fair amount of time in Haiti during the 90s. I never had the issues with Haitians in Haiti that I am reading here. I know Gitmo was an entirely different matter but inter people for any length of time and you can expect the worst to come out. Lock some Americans up for several months whose only crime was to try to get away from anarchy or repression and see how they act. I would hardly call their reactions to their plight extraordinary.

Why did the President jump all over this like a Lieutenant on a hand grenade? That's simple; the national consciousness still remembers Katrina vividly and Obama doesn't want to see Kanye on TV saying that he hates black people.

Should we help Haiti? Absolutely. They are right here in our hemisphere and they have much in common with us. Both of our countries violently threw off the yoke of colonial oppression and we both belong to the Organization of American States.

For most Haitians life was a desperate exercise even in the best of times. Despite what one would expect, the common people that I was exposed to shared what little they had. No one went hungry if someone had something to eat. This isn't to say that Haiti doesn't have its cast of characters. On the contrary, hustling is a way of life, from the man on the street corner to the Presidential palace. But that isn't much different that what you can find in this country in areas of economic depression. I guess that I am saying that Haitians are people and they face a tough row to hoe.

Will we solve Haiti's problems? No, but we can alleviate some of the suffering. It is not only the humanitarian thing to do and but what a partner in the OAS would do. After all, they are a proud people and deserve our support. Ignorance is Haiti's biggest enemy. As long as the people remain uneducated they will continue a cycle of poverty and pain. Anything we do now, without a dedicated long-term strategy will just be a band aid.

My comments are based on my experience in Haiti, living amongst the people. I have a feeling that most of the negativity expressed toward Haiti is from those who have had no interaction with the country or its people. Some will prefer to not help and I can respect that, but what I refuse to accept are those who will speak ill of a people out of their own ignorance. Xenophobia is one of the issues perpetuating our country's cycle of short-sighted foreign policy and often why these problems fester.

As a final note, I have to say that I am moved as I look at the destruction in areas where I served. I lived for a time in Dessalines Barracks behind the National Palace. The National Palace collapsed on itself. I wonder if the team house where I lived in Boutilliere is still clinging to the side of the mountain. I doubt it. The desolation is incredible. I am aghast.

[ToddG]

Why did the President jump all over this like a Lieutenant on a hand grenade? That's simple; the national consciousness still remembers Katrina vividly and Obama doesn't want to see Kanye on TV saying that he hates black people.

That's exactly it.

This is Obama's chance, in the midst of huge domestic problems, to show himself in a positive light compared to his predecessor on the issue of natural disaster response. Katrina played a huge role in decimating GWB's public support. There is no question in my mind that somewhere, one of Obama's handlers is telling him that "Haiti is your New Orleans," and hoping that the American people will love him for further increasing our national debt to help a country that is neutral towards the US at the best of times.

On the other hand, there are tens of thousands of Americans in Haiti and our government should be doing what's necessary to locate, rescue, and retrieve them regardless of anything else. That's not humanitarian, it's national security.

[SW-Shooter]

Our country has poured BILLIONS into Haiti, for what? That country hasn't developed enough for that cost and is still considered a 3rd world nation. Some of the Americans that are living there are sunning in a tropical paradise, they live like kings. I am just feeling a bit detached from the whole thing.

Please don't take this the wrong way, what happened there is catastrophic. But it isn't any different than a Typhoon, or other natural disaster. Why does this country rush to render aid when there are hundreds of other nations that could? Why are we the worlds aid program? It doesn't buy us anything. We are still the most hated. I think we should be fixing our own backyard before we help the guy on the other side of town. Haiti made their own bed, it's tragic what has happened but I cannot see why the U.S. has to rebuild it. we have homeless children starving in this country but I don't see millions of dollars donated to feed them. It's a shame.

The whole thing reeks of Obama trying to take the emphasis away from his failures. He'll be deemed the savior of Haiti, wow.

[Daekwan]

Wow at this thread. Up to 500,000 people dead in a natural disaster and this is the reaction you guys have.

There is a video of Keith Olbermann and his comments on MSNBC. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-PEaWUduCM&feature=player_embedded#

I welcome you all to view it, because thats the exact same reaction I have after reading alot of this. It makes me even more proud Mr. Olbermann is not of the same skin colour that I am.



Atleast we know where everyone is coming from.

[scottryan]

Wow at this thread. Up to 500,000 people dead in a natural disaster and this is the reaction you guys have.

There is a video of Keith Olbermann and his comments on MSNBC. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-PEaWUduCM&feature=player_embedded#

I welcome you all to view it, because thats the exact same reaction I have after reading alot of this. It makes me even more proud Mr. Olbermann is not of the same skin colour that I am.



Atleast we know where everyone is coming from.



Keith Olbermann is a staunch leftist.

[Safetyhit]

Wow at this thread. Up to 500,000 people dead in a natural disaster and this is the reaction you guys have.

There is a video of Keith Olbermann and his comments on MSNBC. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-PEaWUduCM&feature=player_embedded#

I welcome you all to view it, because thats the exact same reaction I have after reading alot of this. It makes me even more proud Mr. Olbermann is not of the same skin colour that I am.



Atleast we know where everyone is coming from.


You are quoting Kieth Olberman here? The absolute most left, angry and biast mainstream "journalist" to ever hit the airways? And you sound proud of endorsing this crap?

First, not even close to 500,000 dead. Maybe a tenth of that. Check your facts.

Second, the place is a cesspool in almost every single aspect. There are always good among the majority bad, but that by no means dictates that they are free from judgment as a people. Just as we are not exempt either.

Haiti is an example of corrupt slop. Through their unfathomable corruption and selfishness, they have reap what they have sown. Aid workers fear going there to help. What does that tell you?

No pity whatsoever...except for the small children.

[QuickStrike]

I'd hate to be in a world full of heartless cynicals. A whole lot of people died, jokes are freakin' tasteless.

Making jokes to get over something? What's there to get over when you don't give a crap in the first place?! :rolleyes:

I'm sure out of the tens of thousands + of people who've perished, lots were decent folk.

[John_Wayne777]

Enough. :rolleyes: