View Full Version : What do you do when what you prefer to use is not available to you??
BLACK LION
01-15-10, 11:05
Some recent training opened up this question since I see people turn thier nose up to certain tools that they dont like or were told not to like...Likewise, favoring what they love or were told to love.
Does this create some sort of mentality or habituation that could keep someone from using a tool that is available just becuase they have repeatedly embedded the fact that they dont like that particular tool???
Of course the answer is simple but I thought this may be an interesting discussion and may provoke some thought.
Business_Casual
01-15-10, 11:50
Aren't there a whole lot of Airmen, Soldiers, Marines, Sailors, Coast Guard and Police who don't get a say in what they are issued? They just get on with it.
M_P
Precisely.
In my career I've been issued different weapon systems and on those occasions if you didn't already ship your hardware forward (or were restricted/prohibited to the Embassy or host-nation's hardware) you drew what was there.
This has included the Ruger Security Six, the Smith and Wesson Model 10, the Browning Highpower, the SIG 226, Glock 17, first-generation M16A2 Carbine, the Uzi, the Mini-14, and the AKM. While not M16s, M4s, M1911A1s, or M9s, fighting principles are the same. Your tools don't make any difference whether or not you know how to use them.
BLACK LION
01-15-10, 12:52
Your tools don't make any difference whether or not you know how to use them.
My sentiments exactly.
Shadow1198
01-15-10, 22:27
Aren't there a whole lot of Airmen, Soldiers, Marines, Sailors, Coast Guard and Police who don't get a say in what they are issued? They just get on with it.
M_P
This. I'm sick and tired of hearing people whine about not being able to shoot because of grip angle, polymer vs. metal frame, blah blah blah. I say learn to work with what you got, put your dick beaters on the gun and run it! :D
geminidglocker
01-15-10, 22:33
Improvise. On my first tour in Iraq, we had the Canvas doors on my Humvee. I Improvised by taking them off so that they would not impede my line of fire. Five months later I was building Steel Armor Plate doors for my beloved Vehicle. I'm still here, so that answers your question.
ETA: I may be a sick F&*k But remember Brothers, I am here if you need me. Don't forget about the Bleach and Ammonia combo.
BLACK LION
01-16-10, 12:22
This is the kind of shyt I like to hear.
There are certain tools I own and practice with not because I particularly like'm, but because they are available on every corner, so to speak. So, if I lost an access to my preferred tools, I'll still be familiar with what's commonly available.
I'm aiming for the eye with the pellet gun if that's all I have.
Not sure what the point of this whole discussion is. Of course if I needed to use a Model 10 and an 870 to defend my life I would give a good accounting of myself, but there are better tools and I try to keep those handy.
Sure we get wrapped up in the gear but anyone who would refuse to fight because he doesn't have his pet equipment with him probably wouldn't do worth a damn even WITH his pet equipment.
anyone who would refuse to fight because he doesn't have his pet equipment with him probably wouldn't do worth a damn even WITH his pet equipment.
AMEN!If you can't pick up a weapon and use it no matter what it is You Suck:eek: .I have seen Many shooters Have the all" High speed ,Low drag gear" and still when shooting something they don't like, blame all their crap shots on the weapon.But their shots were no better with all their Uber cool gear."Man Up"! its what I heard in the Army" if we give you a sling shot you will learn to kill with it and take that son of a bitches weapon and move on" .
:p
Hell a young Marine Did just that in OIF ,He ran dropping weapons as they ran out of Ammo and picking up Insurgents weapons and moved on.
he killed 14 or More and Got the Metal of Honor for His Bravery under Fire and Bravery Beyond the line of duty and that was earned with his ability to Adapt to different Weapon Platforms when it really Mattered
.he said after the Medal was put on ."I was doing My job that I was trained for and was protecting My brothers" Not a direct quote But to that effect
Failure2Stop
01-17-10, 01:39
Improvise
Adapt
Overcome
Semper Gumby...always flexible. I'm a diehard AR guy but I know my way around an AK and other various common rifles. Just try and get familiar with all weapons and their operation. :cool:
AMEN!If you can't pick up a weapon and use it no matter what it is You Suck:eek: .I have seen Many shooters Have the all" High speed ,Low drag gear" and still when shooting something they don't like, blame all their crap shots on the weapon.But their shots were no better with all their Uber cool gear."Man Up"! its what I heard in the Army" if we give you a sling shot you will learn to kill with it and take that son of a bitches weapon and move on" .
:p
Hell a young Marine Did just that in OIF ,He ran dropping weapons as they ran out of Ammo and picking up Insurgents weapons and moved on.
he killed 14 or More and Got the Metal of Honor for His Bravery under Fire and Bravery Beyond the line of duty and that was earned with his ability to Adapt to different Weapon Platforms when it really Mattered
.he said after the Medal was put on ."I was doing My job that I was trained for and was protecting My brothers" Not a direct quote But to that effect
If that's Chontosh you're talking about, he got the Navy Cross. There have been no surviving MoH awardees in the current unpleasantness.
Aren't there a whole lot of Airmen, Soldiers, Marines, Sailors, Coast Guard and Police who don't get a say in what they are issued? They just get on with it.
M_P
Yet if hand them an AK, FAL, Sig, etc. they would be baffled as to how it should be used. Most soldiers are not taught to be weapons, but merely "this is how you use this one weapon.
Then again this discussion is more akin to my ideals, which could be construed, by some as "jack of all trades, master of none". Whereas the actual goal/intention is to be familiar with many platforms so that I can pick any up and have it be familiar. It's just not the goal of the masses.
One of the best jobs on Earth to me would be the 18B. Now that's a guy that has my envy.
Training and familiarization within the gov't is not what most would expect. Think about the "professionally" trained ATF agent that was the only person who was in the room, trained to handle the "Glock 40". [Yes, yes, I know, as do you like minded individuals that Glock has yet to release a Glock 40].
Only those that have an interest in the tools would have a chance at succeeding.
RogerinTPA
01-17-10, 07:38
Weapons are tools in the toolbox. You have to use what's available, yours or theirs.
Aren't there a whole lot of Airmen, Soldiers, Marines, Sailors, Coast Guard and Police who don't get a say in what they are issued? They just get on with it.
...and bitch about not having the "good stuff".
I'm definitely a gun snob, and there is no question in my mind that there are things I can accomplish with some guns that I cannot accomplish with others. There's also no question that dedicated practice with a particular platform leads to excellence with that platform which will not translate 100% over to other platforms.
Having said that, your question:
Does this create some sort of mentality or habituation that could keep someone from using a tool that is available just becuase they have repeatedly embedded the fact that they dont like that particular tool???
... seems unimaginable to me. If I woke up tomorrow morning in Bogota and someone handed me a Ruger P85 with the option of carrying that or nothing, I would instantly become the happiest Ruger P85 owner on Earth.
KS Trekker
01-17-10, 11:02
This. I'm sick and tired of hearing people whine about not being able to shoot because of grip angle, polymer vs. metal frame, blah blah blah. I say learn to work with what you got, put your dick beaters on the gun and run it! :D
I couldn't agree more! You should be able to pick up any gun and put some holes in the black. In a SHTF or TEOTWAWKI scenario, you may just have to do that.
I couldn't agree more! You should be able to pick up any gun and put some holes in the black.
Most people seem to have a hard enough time doing this with their "pet" gun, and you would expect everyone to be able to do it with every and any gun? A tad unrealistic says I, were anyone to ask.
If I woke up tomorrow morning in Bogota and someone handed me a Ruger P85 with the option of carrying that or nothing, I would instantly become the happiest Ruger P85 owner on Earth.
I, on the other hand, would consider you twice cursed: in Bogota and stuck with a P85. :eek:
Suck it up and make do with what's at hand. Look at it as a learning experience and feel happy when you get your favorite tool back.
Sometimes you gotta deal with crap so you can appreciate having good stuff.
I shoot 3 ARs, a Mosin Nagant, Ruger 1022 and a CVA 50 caliber mountain rifle. All equally bad and all equally adept.
I also shoot a Glock 21 and a C.Daly 1911,two more unlike pistols I have ever seen.
The point is I can shoot them and maintain them, I am not the best shot on the block but I can survive if need be.
If that's Chontosh you're talking about, he got the Navy Cross. There have been no surviving MoH awardees in the current unpleasantness.
I believe that the one, thanks for the correction
BLACK LION
01-18-10, 14:25
So its safe to say that sound combative "principles" supercede the tool(s) at hand.
threeheadeddog
01-18-10, 15:58
RWK Quote:
Originally Posted by KS Trekker
I couldn't agree more! You should be able to pick up any gun and put some holes in the black.
Most people seem to have a hard enough time doing this with their "pet" gun, and you would expect everyone to be able to do it with every and any gun? A tad unrealistic says I, were anyone to ask.
I disagree entirely. "Putting them in the black" has basically nothing to do with familiarity with a perticular weapon. Provided the weapon is consistant and one can find where it is hitting then there is no reason that within a very short number of rounds one should not be able to succed in doing this. Accuracy in a practical sense has more to do with trigger control/basic fundamentals than anything else.
I would go so far as to say that I can take any handgun by any manufacturer and shoot it with relatively the same accuracy as the one that I train with. I would also say that most people would be able to do the same. Now speed and manipulations would are another thing entirely. I actually did a test on this at one time in a IDPA match where I shot my pistol and also a G17 at the same match.
This goes back to something that I remember Failure2Stop saying in another thread, I couldnt agree with it more but unfortunately I dont remember it word for word so if I butcher it please for give me. "when you pull the trigger the bullet will go where your sights are pointing... its as simple as that"
BLACK LION
01-18-10, 18:56
I disagree entirely. "Putting them in the black" has basically nothing to do with familiarity with a perticular weapon. Provided the weapon is consistant and one can find where it is hitting then there is no reason that within a very short number of rounds one should not be able to succed in doing this. Accuracy in a practical sense has more to do with trigger control/basic fundamentals than anything else.
I would go so far as to say that I can take any handgun by any manufacturer and shoot it with relatively the same accuracy as the one that I train with. I would also say that most people would be able to do the same. Now speed and manipulations would are another thing entirely. I actually did a test on this at one time in a IDPA match where I shot my pistol and also a G17 at the same match.
This goes back to something that I remember Failure2Stop saying in another thread, I couldnt agree with it more but unfortunately I dont remember it word for word so if I butcher it please for give me. "when you pull the trigger the bullet will go where your sights are pointing... its as simple as that"
Excellent point...
If you cant improvise in a life or death situation you might as well hand the bad guy your weapon and sit indian style.
Improvising is problem solving.
How often do you all train with the 4 basic weapons platforms( pistol, carbine, shotgun, precision rifle)?
I've spent my entire adult life carrying guns and gear that I wouldn't have chosen myself, only until very recently has that changed.
When I started out "on da job" we had few choices if we got into a fight; a 4" .357mag and two speedloaders (well, we were issued dump boxes, I bought the speedloaders myself), and a Remington 870 loaded with 4 rounds of #4 buck and no extra ammo.
Sooooo, I learned to run the gauge well, and I learned to run the revolver well, including making do with what I had by practicing stuff like 100 yard shots with the .357 (it's not likely the #4 buck would dent a bad guy at any real distance).
I also spent the money for a BUG (unheard of back then around here) and a knife, and training, and a butt cuff for the shotgun.
Twice before I was a copper I found myself in potential deadly force situations, I was armed respectively each time with either a break top H&R single shot 12 gauge, and with an H&R model 999 .22 revolver.
At the time I can assure you these were the finest firearms in the world, since they were the only guns I had with me when things went sour.
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