Educate me on illumination

[DCR375]

I'd appreciate if someone could tell me when the age of white light came to pass in the US military. With that said, I feel the need to illum my tgt area in a home defense sit, and without reservation, am not afraid to ask for a bit of advice tech wise. The very thought of white light in a tactical environment scares the Bee-Jesus outta me. You flash white lum my way and you are taking rounds. Is red, et al completely unheard of these days? White light has advantages, but the disadvantages are everybit the equal. I know all about the concept of "dazzling" or "blinding" your intended....what does one call a drunk wife beater or crack dealer these days...arrestee? Anyhoo, I'm not looking for DA/LEO approval. Musn't be politically incorrect, lol. OK, off the soap box. The bottom line is, I can't wrap my sluggish, old Ranger Handbook brain around white light from me, myself, and I, while possibly putting myself in a position to take fire from said emissions. I know the newbs do it as a matter of course. Perhaps I'm being a bit old fashioned....but then again, I think the SAW is a POS without peer, and nothing makes a man like humping a ruck and doing SOCOM evals non-stop for a week. Is red light and tritium dead? Am I missing the point? Is bright lum for prisoners, and I'm just stuck in the late 80's, early 90's, where it's just dbl tap, ACE report, and FRAGO on?

[andre3k]

:confused:
I use the light mounted on my duty gun to see where im going when I enter a dark place. The same reason I carry a flashlight. If a turd is going to shoot at you, he's gonna shoot whether you have a light or not. Hopefully I'll have the advantage and be quicker on the trigger.

[DCR375]

I see... I apologize as I thought that is what rehearsals, NVGs, and speed and aggressive use of force was for. What I am asking is what can be used to illum the target area short of WP or a light saber, in a "professionals" opinion, that won't draw fire. Cuz, you come at me with your "see where your going" bullet magnet fired up, and you will have more rounds in you than on you. Thanks.

[William B.]

Most weapon lights will be bright enough to momentarily blind any bad guys you may come across. You also don't want to leave your light on any longer than you have to. There are techniques such as "strobing" that you can use to make your way through a dark, unfamiliar area without making yourself a total sitting duck. Just make sure you're schooled up on how to properly employ your weapon light and you won't have anything to worry about.

Oh, and you can get red lens covers for them, too.

[geminidglocker]

A weapon light needs to be bright. If you are just chillin' at camp, there is a need for light discipline. They are two different scenarios. When the shooting starts, light discipline is moot, as everybody knows exactly what's happening and where. Are you "Educated" now?

[boltcatch]

I see... I apologize as I thought that is what rehearsals, NVGs, and speed and aggressive use of force was for. What I am asking is what can be used to illum the target area short of WP or a light saber, in a "professionals" opinion, that won't draw fire. Cuz, you come at me with your "see where your going" bullet magnet fired up, and you will have more rounds in you than on you. Thanks.


Yes, but what happens when you can't use your NVG's, or when using them is impractical (they crapped out... there is a lot of artificial illumination in the area.. it's daytime and you're going in and out of dark spaces... etc.) ?

What happens, is you use your light properly and drive on.

Also, nothing anywhere saying you can't use a dim little LED light for navigation. Some weaponn lights have them built in in various colors.

[geminidglocker]

NVGs suck, Period. CQB makes them moot too. Perhaps you are working with the wrong tools? At ranges close enough, NVGs, or atleast as they were issued to me, are 1.25 magnification. This makes it difficult to manuever in tight spaces where a simple bright light would be preferable. They also suck when you are in Blackout Mode and come across opposing traffic with their head lights on.

[DCR375]

Yes, but what happens when you can't use your NVG's, or when using them is impractical (they crapped out... there is a lot of artificial illumination in the area.. it's daytime and you're going in and out of dark spaces... etc.) ?

What happens, is you use your light properly and drive on.

Also, nothing anywhere saying you can't use a dim little LED light for navigation. Some weaponn lights have them built in in various colors.

Well now, I see... If your NODs take a shite, due to white out, flash or, or what not, use your big bright white light... Correct? Of course if that is the case, the it's in effect....right? Light discipline means nothing. Nor do your NODs. After thinking, I realized this was a silly question to ask, especiallly after trying to stress rehearsals, walk through/talk throughs, etc... Do forgive. What I should of asked asked was, is red light, or the various hues of the rainbow, practical at illuminating transgressors in ones PB, without being a bullet mag. For all of you who answered anything relating to your "duty" weapon, or how I'm a dumkopf, don't know how to use my "light" properly, I submit, that your use of a light, short of a PC extract, or hard target takedown, will get you killed. Period. Been there done that, and I'm not selling a tactical school/program to lie to you or fleece you. I was not, nor ever will be SFOD/D, but then I also want folks to survive. If you have no experience putting rounds into folks who wish you kaput, sans superior numbers and illiumination technology, save it....

[DCR375]

Ahhhh... Geminidglocker has gotten somewhere... Help me out bro-heem, NODs white out, dark as shite, unfamiliar environment, mission is scrubbed, short of FRAGOed to hell, what can wel use that will not, in reasonable use' draw all the damn 7.62x39 we can stomach? You think white light? Light up the field? Maybe we need to focus more on tritium front sight posts, as I think rears are wasted with proper cheek weld? Quit ignoring the reality of light works both ways. Opinions? Imagine no damn optics. Would red light work for POW/SEARCH? Bro, you start firing up the surelights, and you will, will, eventually draw fire. I'm speaking in a defensive op. What do you think will target breachers without giving ones position away time after time?

[Jay Cunningham]

Check out this AAR, it makes for a decent read:

AAR: Hackathorn/Vickers Low Light Intensive Course II (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=8907)

[geminidglocker]

There is a time for Defense, and a time for Offense, the scenario dictates which method should be applied. I can recall a few occasions where I had to call for Illumination, delivered promptly by our Paladins. I met some Marines once on a convoy that said, "If we have contact, we'll pop a purple smoke." I was always keen to pop a Green flare from the 203. Our Convoy was uneventful til' we hit an IED. Luckily it was a GIED, a gay ied that did'nt accomplish its intended mission.

[perna]

Trying to read these posts made my brain hurt, is that some sort of mil-speak?

[rychencop]

Trying to read these posts made my brain hurt, is that some sort of mil-speak?

me too...i stopped reading after the first few sentences.

[DWood]

Trying to read these posts made my brain hurt, is that some sort of mil-speak?


Troll speak...........

[Iraq Ninja]

me too...i stopped reading after the first few sentences.

Those who know what he wrote can best answer his questions. ;)

[Black]

We still use white light on our carbines for entering and clearing houses / searching / warning cars / ect. Whatever the mission dictates.

Obviously you wouldn't use it when using NVGs, but before I get into that house my NVGs go up, anyway.

Red light is still used for reading maps when the situation calls for total darkness. And tritium is still used in our compasses, if that's what you're asking.

Blue lights are still used inside the vehicle while rolling in sector.

The age of the white light has not came to pass.

As for ACE reports and FRAGOs... that's not old fashioned at all, that's just the military. I have no idea what you're talking about the Ranger Handbook being 'old school' as it's often revised and updated.

[William B.]

Those who know what he wrote can best answer his questions. ;)

I may be able to translate for you, but I don't know if it would matter. I think his mind was made up before he even started this thread.

[Failure2Stop]

Is red light and tritium dead?

Red light is good for reducing loss of night vision, but at the intensities needed to positively ID or locate a threat it really doesn't matter what color you are pushing, and since we work better in full color, we might as well use it. Color does nothing to prevent detection (well, really, blue/purple is the least obvious, but it's still pretty easy to detect at night), at least not at usable levels of light.

Tritium is great, but has pretty much been eclipsed by RDSs on rifles.


Am I missing the point?

Actually, yes. I think you are missing the point and if you really want to understand the subject I highly recommend that you take a class on night fighting, because it is pretty obvious that you don't know what you don't know.

[DCR375]

Touche'. I apologize to all. White light was a no no stressed upon me years ago. It was used specifically, not arbitrarily. Obviously that still applies, but I started off rather assholish, and found fault instead of learning. Add a few brews and it was a recipe for disaster. I know how to fight at night, sans white lights beaming. With that said, I will shut the hell up and listen to how white light is used effectively today, without compromising oneself. Out.

[ToddG]

You flash white lum my way and you are taking rounds.

Possession of a flashlight is not justification for the use of lethal force, just fyi. Using white light (alone) as a target discriminator in a home defense situation is probably not the brightest idea, excuse the pun.

The other thing folks seem to forget when arguing the "shoot the light" approach is that if someone is a real threat and has white light on you, you're probably taking rounds, too.

[Dennis]

The different ROE for various LE and MIL missions probably affect this discussion as well. In an LE situation I have no idea how I would clear a house for a suspect without light bright enough to give me away, white or otherwise. Plus there's no way they don't already know I'm there since I knocked and announced myself beforehand.

For LE or home defense situations you generally have to know that you are shooting at a real threat, and if it's dark and close up you have no other choice but to illuminate first. Appropriate tactics can help to reduce the risks involved, but unfortunately you just can't start slinging lead at any shadow that moves, assuming there is even a shadow to see...

Dennis.

[John_Wayne777]

In the modern world...especially inside the continental US...if you drop the hammer on somebody it had better be after you have clearly identified them as a threat. Unless you are part owl or happen to have ANVS-9's strapped to your face, that will require the use of a white light.

[ToddG]

Lasermax has a new prototype light/laser at the SHOT Show that is really a great idea. It combines a 60 lumen light with a green laser in a package that is about the size of two thumbs side-by-side. The design needs some tweaking, and they know they need to do more work on the switching. But for a concealed carry pistol, it provides enough light to ID a threat at 10-15yd plus a visible laser aiming point in a package that won't compromise how/where you carry the gun.

[Savior 6]

Touche'. I apologize to all. White light was a no no stressed upon me years ago. It was used specifically, not arbitrarily. Obviously that still applies, but I started off rather assholish, and found fault instead of learning. Add a few brews and it was a recipe for disaster. I know how to fight at night, sans white lights beaming. With that said, I will shut the hell up and listen to how white light is used effectively today, without compromising oneself. Out.

Dude as an RFSed I understand that white lighting is as bad flagging your weapon. But that's because you train as a specialized, aggressive weapon that when used is sent out with a purpose, to do harm to and demoralize the enemy. It's done with a more offensive mind set that relies on speed, suprise, and violence of action. It's backed by training, rehersals, and soldier discipline.

Most people on here are looking at information from here from the civie aspect of things which takes on more of a defensive and law enforcement approach. As I said earlier, with your Military training it is done with the intent to do harm (to the enemy), whereas on the civie side it is done with the intent to prevent harm (to yourself and those you care about). ROE and wartime doctrine help to justify your actions on the Military side, but on the civie side you have to prove without a doubt that you were justified. And white lighting a home invader to make sure that the person has a weapon (and not just some unarmed crack fiend looking for food) may make all the differnce in the world to a jury that would just assume turn from a hero to a felon.

I hope you don't take my words as less worthy since I live on the other side of the brown fence.

[R Moran]

Most military units, including the Ranger Bn's use white light, usually mounted on their weapons. Its not a civvie or LE vs. military type thing, its mission driven.

While, white light was a big no go, back in the day, while conducting your standard Ranger school type missions, most operations are not taking place in wooded, Fulda gap, type terrain, or even those types of missions. And, even back then, we still white lighted the obj. while consolidating and reorganizing.

One org. I received training from, believed, that after the 1st bang went off, white lights should be turned on and left on, for the duration of the operation. Generally, its no surprise we are there anymore, or even where we are in the structure. Its now time to overwhelm the adversary, as fast as possible, white light makes that happen.

While its nice to talk about, "owning the night", various NODS, and SOP's to use them, very few organizations, even those with them, have the training resources to really use them effectively.

In the end, white light, red/blue/green light, IR light,.... all need to enter the mix, to effectively operate at night.

Bob

[NCPatrolAR]

Most military units, including the Ranger Bn's use white light, usually mounted on their weapons. Its not a civvie or LE vs. military type thing, its mission driven.

While, white light was a big no go, back in the day, while conducting your standard Ranger school type missions, most operations are not taking place in wooded, Fulda gap, type terrain, or even those types of missions. And, even back then, we still white lighted the obj. while consolidating and reorganizing.

One org. I received training from, believed, that after the 1st bang went off, white lights should be turned on and left on, for the duration of the operation. Generally, its no surprise we are there anymore, or even where we are in the structure. Its now time to overwhelm the adversary, as fast as possible, white light makes that happen.

While its nice to talk about, "owning the night", various NODS, and SOP's to use them, very few organizations, even those with them, have the training resources to really use them effectively.

In the end, white light, red/blue/green light, IR light,.... all need to enter the mix, to effectively operate at night.

Bob


At a recent training course I attended; we would use NODs on the movement to the structure and then remove them once the service was started. This was the best course of action to me after having been inside structures so dark that NODs wouldnt work without hving to kick on the IR flood. Also, muzzle flashes can play hell with NODs at times.

[DCR375]

Most military units, including the Ranger Bn's use white light, usually mounted on their weapons. Its not a civvie or LE vs. military type thing, its mission driven.

While, white light was a big no go, back in the day, while conducting your standard Ranger school type missions, most operations are not taking place in wooded, Fulda gap, type terrain, or even those types of missions. And, even back then, we still white lighted the obj. while consolidating and reorganizing.

One org. I received training from, believed, that after the 1st bang went off, white lights should be turned on and left on, for the duration of the operation. Generally, its no surprise we are there anymore, or even where we are in the structure. Its now time to overwhelm the adversary, as fast as possible, white light makes that happen.

While its nice to talk about, "owning the night", various NODS, and SOP's to use them, very few organizations, even those with them, have the training resources to really use them effectively.

In the end, white light, red/blue/green light, IR light,.... all need to enter the mix, to effectively operate at night.

Bob

Roger that. Mission dictates. While most of our missions were standard raids/ambushes/patrols, as well as airfield seizures, we certainly hit up McKenna a time or two, as well as various other MOUT/CQB facilites here and there, but sans white light unless it was mission specific. I know it's peanuts compared to what the Bn's do now, and that they definately use white light more profusely and effectively. Anyway, thanks to all, and Moran, I knew two of you in C 3/75 in the late 80's, early 90's. ! in wpns, and the other in 2nd plt. Are you either one?

[R Moran]

Interestingly, the last two nights were spent doing night training, including facility denial & recapture, etc.

NC,
Back during the first go around in the desert(91), I remember being out on an OP, and my 7's wouldn't work? Cap off, fresh batt's, worked before I left the perimeter, etc. yep, to dark for nods to work.
And +1 on the muzzle flash, whiting out the nods, momentarily. Mostly with crew served guns though.

DCR,
Sorry dude, no Ranger BN time, was 82nd, same time frame. We did all the same missions, and as my good friend said, who was later an RI, it was straight out of the Ranger Handbook.
Like I said, for those classic Ranger/Airborne/Lt. Infantry missions, yea, white light is rarely used. MOUT back then, is a different animal then what CQB is today. What the troops do now, is lot closer to SWAT & hostage rescue type stuff. Collateral damage is a major concern, especially in my organization.

IMO, it really comes down to the mission and situation. If you really need to hit the structure/facility fast & hard, nothing is better then white light.

Bob

[Sidewinder6]

Having been around a long time and watched the evolution of light technology, I want to say it was CAG who brought Surefire around to the mainstream.

As mentioned here, there are some missions where speed and overwhelming force overcome some of the concerns being considered. Having something that would mount and survive these applications is how the technology evolved.

And a good night or two at the range will make you a believer.

[Jay Cunningham]

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=16114&highlight=stance

Some more good info.

[DCR375]

Thanks in abundance Katar.