View Full Version : Check your Trijicon for bible verses
http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2010/01/15/trijicons-subtle-christian-messages/
geminidglocker
01-16-10, 00:03
WOW! Someone has more time on their hands than me.
ChicagoTex
01-17-10, 11:20
Looks photoshopped. Can anyone with actual Trijicon optics verify whether or not this stuff is on them?
Pretty much all the comments on that site are proselytizers beating their chests about how much they approve of a message none of them seem to be inclined to verify actually exists.
Outlander Systems
01-17-10, 11:32
Looks photoshopped. Can anyone with actual Trijicon optics verify whether or not this stuff is on them?
Pretty much all the comments on that site are proselytizers beating their chests about how much they approve of a message none of them seem to be inclined to verify actually exists.
Negative. My '09 RMR has First Thessolonians 5:5 on it:
"Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness."
My old TR21 had a reference on it, and my TR24 does as well I think, though I'll need to verify what it is.
If I remember correctly, they're all verses that reference "light", which is another cool touch.
ChicagoTex
01-17-10, 12:04
Alright then, guess it's real.
Seems pretty pointless to me but whatever floats Trijicon's boat...
shittercrewchief
01-17-10, 12:13
Alright then, guess it's real.
Seems pretty pointless to me but whatever floats Trijicon's boat...
Maybe they are a company with christian values.
ChicagoTex
01-17-10, 12:24
Maybe they are a company with christian values.
"Values" don't have anything to do with whether or not there's a point to doing something. To my mind this is a less garish form of the "Jesus Fish" people slap on the back of their cars.
I'll bet you anything no one, anywhere, EVER has been converted by a "Jesus Fish". Likewise, no one who isn't a Christian already is going to be the least bit influenced by these little passage-plants, except perhaps to feel alienated by it (which, on it's face, is an equally inappropriate take).
"Values" don't have anything to do with whether or not there's a point to doing something. To my mind this is a less garish form of the "Jesus Fish" people slap on the back of their cars.
I'll bet you anything no one, anywhere, EVER has been converted by a "Jesus Fish". Likewise, no one who isn't a Christian already is going to be the least bit influenced by these little passage-plants, except perhaps to feel alienated by it (which, on it's face, is an equally inappropriate take).
the point of these little christian symbols isn't to convert anyone. the point of the fish is today the same as it was yesterday- a symbol for christians to show other christians that they're christians. back then it was to show christians refuge in a place where they would be beheaded/hanged/cruicified/starved to death/tortured to death for their faith. today, it's just nice to see that there are still other christians out there. we aren't physically harmed for a views today, but we're still stigmatized and despised, and our numbers are halving every generation.
the symbols arent for you- they're to comfort us.
Seems totally out of place to me.
Seems like a subtle blessing to soldiers using Trijicon optics. Relatively tasteful to me. Not like they're shoving the stuff down our throats.
Trijicon ACOG ECOS
JN8:12
"I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
RAM Engineer
01-17-10, 12:41
Seems totally out of place to me.
Then it is your right to not buy one.
SeriousStudent
01-17-10, 12:42
My TR-24G has John 12:46 on it. I had not noticed it before, when I stuck it in the mount.
Now it has not just practical value, but sentimental value as well.
shittercrewchief
01-17-10, 13:02
Does anyone know if each model has the same verse. or do the verses change on various units of the same model.
Also what do the government issue ones have?
Outlander Systems
01-17-10, 13:10
My TR-24G has John 12:46 on it. I had not noticed it before, when I stuck it in the mount.
Now it has not just practical value, but sentimental value as well.
This.
... but we're still stigmatized and despised, and our numbers are halving every generation.
Have you noticed that Christians and overweight people are the only ones that it's socially acceptable to lambaste, mock, and belittle, with absolutely little to no repercussions?
I find this to be interesting. It's quite cool to denigrate Christians, nowadays.
I find these sorts of things moving me more deeply towards the faith. It's almost a validating concept, if you will.
As far as the "advertising" aspects of externalising something internal, my brother-in-law told me something when I was fifteen that I will NEVER forget.
"If you have to say you are; you aren't"
Also what do the government issue ones have?
None.
I took the opportunity to check some of the 40 or so we have at our facility, from the OTS ones of '02-'03 to current-gen. One can't always stop upper-enlisted-type-believers from using unit formations tell troops what baggos they are for not praying to the same invisible man that they do, but we CAN keep the info on the devices limited to that which has a direct reference to inventory, logistics, repair, etc.
If somebody with a commercial variant doesn't like the message(s), Sharpies and paint are cheaper than ditching a quality piece of glass, which I've seen in commentary elsewhere. Idiots, and not even useful ones.
SeriousStudent
01-17-10, 13:35
I'll be happy to accept any and all Trijicon products that cause the current owner pain and displeasure.
I'll even pay for the shipping. I'm a nice guy.
shittercrewchief
01-17-10, 13:36
This pretty cool in my opinion, plus it is subtle enough that most will never notice.
In N Out does the same thing on their burger wrappers & cups and I don't think most people notice. Their company, their beliefs. And the best fast food burgers ever!!! :)
I'll be happy to accept any and all Trijicon products that cause the current owner pain and displeasure.
I'll even pay for the shipping. I'm a nice guy.
Ditto! :D
Then it is your right to not buy one.
I can't afford one.
I just get an uneasy feeling when anyone mixes religion and weaponry, or decides to go to war based on religious ideals.
ChicagoTex
01-17-10, 13:55
we aren't physically harmed for a views today, but we're still stigmatized and despised
At a bare minimum, at least 50% or more of the US population is "Christian" enough to not give you crap for you calling yourself a Christian. That's hardly a "stigma".
the symbols arent for you- they're to comfort us.
If you need comfort from inanimate symbols, then there's a lot more pointless going on then some guys at Trijicon making biblical references.
Have you noticed that Christians... are the only ones that it's socially acceptable to lambaste, mock, and belittle, with absolutely little to no repercussions?
Bull. Absolute, total bull and you know it.
. It's quite cool to denigrate Christians, nowadays.
In certain circles, this is absolutely true. I consider the "New Athiests" as much of a pain in the ass as the relentless Christian or any other faith zealots.
I find these sorts of things moving me more deeply towards the faith. It's almost a validating concept, if you will.
Of course it does, it's a well proven psychological phenomenon that criticism of something makes it seem more real to the person being criticized regardless of reality. Ask a rail thin anorexic if they think they're fat. Just because they reply yes, doesn't mean they actually are.
As far as the "advertising" aspects of externalising something internal, my brother-in-law told me something when I was fifteen that I will NEVER forget.
"If you have to say you are; you aren't"
This, I absolutely agree with.
I've no intention of boycotting Trijicon because they take the time out of their day to put writing I don't give the slightest flying crap about on their optics. If they're good optics and the company treats me right - we've got no problem. That doesn't change the fact that I still perceive it as a waste of time, primarily because I suppose I figure reasonable people won't care whether they're Christians or not. Maybe I'm just underestimating the value of marketing to unreasonable people who need or want their faith validated on their MF'ing optics...
ChicagoTex
01-17-10, 13:58
I just get an uneasy feeling when anyone mixes religion and weaponry, or decides to go to war based on religious ideals.
In fairness, the two are not necessarily linked concepts. Investing oneself (including one's faith) in what one builds does not, by definition, mean they intend their faith to extend it's use.
So I guess I'm saying there's not much to be concerned with the former, but I certainly echo your concerns with the latter.
I find these sorts of things moving me more deeply towards the faith. It's almost a validating concept, if you will.
As MLK said, "...unearned suffering is redemptive."
As for the significance of the verses, it's discreet enough to be more like a secret handshake than a blatant advertising technique.
At a bare minimum, at least 50% or more of the US population is "Christian" enough to not give you crap for you calling yourself a Christian. That's hardly a "stigma".
If you need comfort from inanimate symbols, then there's a lot more pointless going on then some guys at Trijicon making biblical references.
Bull. Absolute, total bull and you know it.
In certain circles, this is absolutely true. I consider the "New Athiests" as much of a pain in the ass as the relentless Christian or any other faith zealots.
Of course it does, it's a well proven psychological phenomenon that criticism of something makes it seem more real to the person being criticized regardless of reality. Ask a rail thin anorexic if they think they're fat. Just because they reply yes, doesn't mean they actually are.
This, I absolutely agree with.
I've no intention of boycotting Trijicon because they take the time out of their day to put writing I don't give the slightest flying crap about on their optics. If they're good optics and the company treats me right - we've got no problem. That doesn't change the fact that I still perceive it as a waste of time, primarily because I suppose I figure reasonable people won't care whether they're Christians or not. Maybe I'm just underestimating the value of marketing to unreasonable people who need or want their faith validating on their MF'ing optics...
you're competely missing the point. ever spent any extended time in a foreign country? you know that feeling you get when, every once in a while, you see an American flag? do you need to see an American flag to "validate" your American citizenship? no- it's just a reminder and a comfort.
that's what bible verse keys and little fish are like for bible-believing, "evengelical" christians. it's just a reminder of who you are and where you come from, what you're supposed to be living for and where you're headed.
who are you to judge the value of symbolism in my religion?
ChicagoTex
01-17-10, 14:28
who are you to judge the value of symbolism in my religion?
You misunderstand, I'm not criticizing the value of symbolism in your religion, I'm criticizing the value of symbolism in general.
To my mind, this crap rings pretty hollow no matter what you believe. I believe that, rationally, symbols should have no effect on your worldview or disposition period. I don't need to wait for Veteran's Day to acknowledge the contributions our soldiers make, I don't need a Darwin fish to acknowledge that there are other non-Christians in the world, and I figure if I were a Christian I wouldn't need a Jesus Fish or some crap written on my ACOG to remind myself of my own personally held faith.
The whole thing flat doesn't make sense to me, regardless of religious content or the lack thereof. I find it decidedly insubstantive.
PRGGodfather
01-17-10, 15:52
It isn't about you. Or me. Or anyone except Trijicon. It is the way they have chosen to express themselves.
By your own logic getting flummoxed about this is just as insubstantial as another person's comfort. For someone not prosletyzing, you sure waste a lot of words saying you aren't.
I would ask why it troubles you so much, but that is your own business.
ChicagoTex
01-17-10, 16:01
It isn't about you. Or me. Or anyone except Trijicon. It is the way they have chosen to express themselves.
If you look at my original response after ascertaining that Trijicon was, in fact, doing this, that was the exact tack I took.
I simply expressed the view that *I* saw it as a waste of time, which triggered the automatic religious defense system because I couldn't POSSIBLY have issues with something beyond the realm of "I don't like Christians" (because we all know any time you criticize or state a negative opinion about ANY Christian, it's an attack on their religion:rolleyes:)
Everything afterwards has been clarifying my position and trying to get the facts straight.
In N Out does the same thing on their burger wrappers & cups and I don't think most people notice. Their company, their beliefs. And the best fast food burgers ever!!! :)
QTF!!! I really wish they would expand out of the Southwest! Was in Phoenix in feburary last year for a National Paintball tournament(PSP) and thats all me and the guys from my team wanted to eat for the week we were in town(played at the Cardinals stadium)
QTF!!! I really wish they would expand out of the Southwest! Was in Phoenix in feburary last year for a National Paintball tournament(PSP) and thats all me and the guys from my team wanted to eat for the week we were in town(played at the Cardinals stadium)
I literally just had a Double Double, Animal Style, extra toast for lunch :D The problem with them expanding is they're still family owned and will not sell any franchises. It keeps the quality control up and fresh products on tap. So far the ones I know of are in CA, NV, AZ and Utah.
If you look at my original response after ascertaining that Trijicon was, in fact, doing this, that was the exact tack I took.
I simply expressed the view that *I* saw it as a waste of time, which triggered the automatic religious defense system because I couldn't POSSIBLY have issues with something beyond the realm of "I don't like Christians" (because we all know any time you criticize or state a negative opinion about ANY Christian, it's an attack on their religion:rolleyes:)
Everything afterwards has been clarifying my position and trying to get the facts straight.
it's not a waste of time when so many christians appreciate it. it's rare enough to come across fellow christians in the world that we notice it. it's rare enough that when i'm recommending a fellow contractor i know to another, and he happens to be christian, i'll comment "and he's a believer," and the other guy will say "ah.. good. not too many of them left these days." it's rare enough that when somebody discovers bible verse keys on their optic, they share it with others- and they take note and start threads and have a suddenly, slightly changed perception of the manfer. it's rare enough that in the few occasions we see a bible verse key someone left for others to see, we'll look it up. etc.
how's it a waste of time? again- it's not for you, it's for us. so if you don't care, you don't care- but i think you do care. you're irritated by it enough to be engaged in this debate. so why do you care? i think you should think on that for a while.
PRGGodfather
01-17-10, 16:40
I 'm just wondering why those of us who find such activity insubstantial bother to comment in the first place. It's sublimely ironic someone who believes something else, would waste time telling someone else they were wasting time for believing something else! (Kind of like preaching to others to stop preaching).
If symbolism is important to some folks, good on them! If it isn't, rock on! Sometimes, people will ask "questions" when they're not really interested in the responses -- they're actually making a statement, hidden in the question.
Ironically, "If you have to say you don't believe, does that mean your really do?"
I don't really want to know why it bothers some folks. To me at least, I figure that's between them and whomever or whatever they don't believe in.
Trijicon codes Bible verses on their products. Good on them, and it makes me proud to be an American, where such expressions are protected under the law and subject to the free market.
Opinions are free, but disagreement is freedom.
ChicagoTex
01-17-10, 16:45
how's it a waste of time? again- it's not for you, it's for us. so if you don't care, you don't care- but i think you do care. you're irritated by it enough to be engaged in this debate.
I'm irritated enough by your rhetoric to be engaged in this debate, including you forcing the persecution card right out of the box. "Oh, Christians are such a rare breed and we're so persecuted"; save it for someone who'll believe the lies your Pastor spoonfeeds you on Sunday like so much honey.
What I loathe, more than anything in the world, is deliberate inaccuracy and misrepresentation. You're not persecuted, you don't have a stigma, Christians are not "hard to come by these days" and this particular debate was never about my being tweaked because Trijicon's run by Christians with poor time-management skills and screwy priorities. It's about the lies you and your "brethren" tell yourselves to maintain your inflated sense of superiority.
Thats awesome!!! Now I have to run upstairs and check out my ACOG!!
I am not sure why people get upset over this. I am an Atheist with no love for religion, and I find this pretty cool.
PRGGodfather
01-17-10, 16:58
IMHO, we're all brothers -- even when we disagree -- and I support your right to believe whatever you like, and buy whatever you like. I'm not superior to anyone, and simply, I know I deserve a heck of lot less than what I have.
For example, Kwelz and I can think totally different things, and still agree to disagree.
I'll get off my soapbox when other folks stop pretending they're NOT on a soapbox of their own...
I'm irritated enough by your rhetoric to be engaged in this debate, including you forcing the persecution card right out of the box. "Oh, Christians are such a rare breed and we're so persecuted"; save it for someone who'll believe the lies your Pastor spoonfeeds you on Sunday like so much honey.
What I loathe, more than anything in the world, is deliberate inaccuracy and misrepresentation. You're not persecuted, you don't have a stigma, Christians are not "hard to come by these days" and this particular debate was never about my being tweaked because Trijicon's run by Christians with poor time-management skills and screwy priorities. It's about the lies you and your "brethren" tell yourselves to maintain your inflated sense of superiority.
you hold the majority attitude... this is exactly why being a christian in America sucks.
so that'll do it for me... you have some pretty major misconceptions that i'm not going to be able to do anything about. and for as long as you hold them, a rational debate isn't going to be possible.
What I loathe, more than anything in the world, is deliberate inaccuracy and misrepresentation. You're not persecuted, you don't have a stigma, Christians are not "hard to come by these days" and this particular debate was never about my being tweaked because Trijicon's run by Christians with poor time-management skills and screwy priorities. It's about the lies you and your "brethren" tell yourselves to maintain your inflated sense of superiority.
Could it be that you don't believe that Christians aren't persecuted simply because you aren't one? That's like saying there is no discrimination against blacks anymore but you're white. Discrimination and persecution is with us, always has and always will until Jesus returns and we all approach the great throne of God to be judged individually...
For what its worth, I like the verses done discretely, it encourages me that I'm not alone because many times I do feel alone and out numbered. And I do feel bad that this stuff irritates you...
ChicagoTex
01-17-10, 17:13
this is exactly why being a christian in America sucks.
Note how many people have chimed in here supporting the Christian message in contrast to those opposing. Being a Christian in America sucks only in your mind, in the real world it's really not so bad, I promise.
so that'll do it for me...
I'd thank God, but that would be some pretty hollow and far too deliberate irony.
Could it be that you don't believe that Christians aren't persecuted simply because you aren't one?
Would you believe me if I told you I used to be a Youth Pastor just a hare over half a decade ago? I know I definetely wasn't persecuted then, and since that was only 2004, I imagine not a whole hell of a lot has changed since.
And I do feel bad that this stuff irritates you...
Believe it or not, I actually appreciate that sentiment; it's a good reconcilatory and harmonious gesture.
I really don't hate Christians, I used to be one, that's why I hate the faulty rhetoric that tends to accompany so many Christians so often. The classic "Hate the sin, not the sinner" expression turned on it's proverbial ear.
Could it be that you don't believe that Christians aren't persecuted simply because you aren't one? That's like saying there is no discrimination against blacks anymore but you're white. Discrimination and persecution is with us, always has and always will until Jesus returns and we all approach the great throne of God to be judged individually...
There is no more discrimination against Christians than there is against any other religion, and no more than Christians discriminate against others based upon religion.
There is no more discrimination against blacks than there is against any other race, and no more than blacks discriminate against others based upon race.
The only thing they all really have in common is the persistent belief that they are being persecuted more than any other.
As for Trijicon, like others have said - their company, their rights. They aren't getting tax dollars so anyone who doesn't own part of the company has zero say in the matter. Simply owning their products does not entitle you to controlling interests.
My personal POV, they make a nice product and that is all I care about. They are entitled to whatever form of religious expression they choose to engage in regarding their products.
My TA33 and TA45 are curiously bereft of biblical references. I suppose I could epoxy on a St. Michael's medal (patron saint of policemen and soldiers) and go with that.
ChicagoTex
01-17-10, 17:18
My TA33 and TA45 are curiously bereft of biblical references.
Fascinating. When did you buy them and, if you can recall, from whom? It'd be interesting to see if we could pinpoint a time period that this started.
it's not a waste of time when so many christians appreciate it. it's rare enough to come across fellow christians in the world that we notice it. it's rare enough that when i'm recommending a fellow contractor i know to another, and he happens to be christian, i'll comment "and he's a believer," and the other guy will say "ah.. good. not too many of them left these days." it's rare enough that when somebody discovers bible verse keys on their optic, they share it with others- and they take note and start threads and have a suddenly, slightly changed perception of the manfer. it's rare enough that in the few occasions we see a bible verse key someone left for others to see, we'll look it up. etc.
how's it a waste of time? again- it's not for you, it's for us. so if you don't care, you don't care- but i think you do care. you're irritated by it enough to be engaged in this debate. so why do you care? i think you should think on that for a while.
As a Christian, I love the fact that Trijicon does this. There are very few Christian based companies left and even fewer ones that will publicize their beliefs!
Good for them.
C4
The only thing they all really have in common is the persistent belief that they are being persecuted more than any other.
That's beautifully put. Martyr syndrome is tiresome, regardless of the source.
My personal POV, they make a nice product and that is all I care about. They are entitled to whatever form of religious expression they choose to engage in regarding their products.
Agreed, as well. If it bothers an individual owner so much, they should take the opportunity to deface "the work of those dirty Christians grrrrrrrr" with a metal scribe, paint, tape, or something. Then make an off-color jesus joke in the safety of your circle of friends and feel privately smug about how you showed 'em reeeeel good.
FFS, it's an inanimate object with some writing on it.
I really don't hate Christians, I used to be one, that's why I hate the faulty rhetoric that tends to accompany so many Christians so often.
Same here brother.
I live in the south and was raised southern baptist. If I go around talking about how I think that a literal interpretation of Biblical scripture has a negative impact on humanity, I WILL and HAVE been persecuted.
However, if I had the spare change and the need for an ACOG, I wouldn't let this little scripture reference deter my purchase, even if it was some equally ridiculous Koranic BS.
Rayrevolver
01-17-10, 18:07
My TA33 and TA45 are curiously bereft of biblical references. I suppose I could epoxy on a St. Michael's medal (patron saint of policemen and soldiers) and go with that.
Look harder, its there on the TA33.
My TA33R8 says something like 1JN1:7.
ChicagoTex
01-17-10, 18:17
There are very few Christian based companies left and even fewer ones that will publicize their beliefs!
In fairness, I'm not sure it's really apt to call Trijicon a "Christian-based" company, since that really has nothing to do with their specific corporate identity or the products they make the same way, say, a crucifix factory would (cheesy example I know, but I had to end the analogy somehow).
They are a company that happens to be made up of a considerable number of Christians which may and probably do include the founder(s), which is why outside of specific comforts or alienations from believers/non-believers it really has no influence on the final product and whether or not you should do business with them. I'd love to rock an ACOG on my spare AR because it's a good optic from a good company, and solely for that reason. Now if only I could afford the ACOG... and the spare AR!:p
What I find most amusing is that they've apparently been doing this for years and who knew until recently...?
Anyone know if the USG has supplied Trijicon optics to our *ahem* Muslim allies? I would fall out of my chair laughing if I found out that we did and they've been toting around Christian bible verses. :D
What I find most amusing is that they've apparently been doing this for years and who knew until recently...?
Great question.
Regardless, good for them. It's not about being far right, just advocating basic morals.
If I didn't already need a Trijicon, I sure feel like I do now.
I am not religious, but this doesn't mean anything to me. I've owned Trijicon stuff in the past, still do, and will buy more in the future.
I will say that the chevron reticle did not seem to enable me to shoot groups tiny enough that I felt there was divine intervention involved ;)
monkeywrench
01-17-10, 18:51
I have trijicon reflex II that I bought in 2004 or 2005 it has 2 Corinthians 4:6
(For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.)
I bought it from GG&G.
Outlander Systems
01-17-10, 19:27
Trijicon: Superior Optics through Divine Intervention
Not a christian, but still cool with me. The only time ANY religion bothers me is when people try to push it on me. This doesn't seem like that me.
It is incredibly ironic to me that people think it is appropriate to put scripture on a device designed to assist in the killing of others. I wonder why they feel the need to hide it? Why not put it on the box? How about the beliefs of our servicemen or officers that are not christian?
Christians are the most persicuted group in this country. Just imaging trying to be elected to major office if you were a christian...... oh wait a second, you have to be one to be elected. Every atheist I have ever heard of running, has had thier lack of faith used against them.
As far as one guy posted about it being a good comfort to out troops as they head into battle.... Mark Twain had an interesting take on that, read below.
The War Prayer
by Mark Twain
It was a time of great and exalting excitement. The country was up in arms, the war was on, in every breast burned the holy fire of patriotism; the drums were beating, the bands playing, the toy pistols popping, the bunched firecrackers hissing and spluttering; on every hand and far down the receding and fading spread of roofs and balconies a fluttering wilderness of flags flashed in the sun; daily the young volunteers marched down the wide avenue gay and fine in their new uniforms, the proud fathers and mothers and sisters and sweethearts cheering them with voices choked with happy emotion as they swung by; nightly the packed mass meetings listened, panting, to patriot oratory which stirred the deepest deeps of their hearts, and which they interrupted at briefest intervals with cyclones of applause, the tears running down their cheeks the while; in the churches the pastors preached devotion to flag and country, and invoked the God of Battles beseeching His aid in our good cause in outpourings of fervid eloquence which moved every listener. It was indeed a glad and gracious time, and the half dozen rash spirits that ventured to disapprove of the war and cast a doubt upon its righteousness straightway got such a stern and angry warning that for their personal safety's sake they quickly shrank out of sight and offended no more in that way.
Sunday morning came -- next day the battalions would leave for the front; the church was filled; the volunteers were there, their young faces alight with martial dreams -- visions of the stern advance, the gathering momentum, the rushing charge, the flashing sabers, the flight of the foe, the tumult, the enveloping smoke, the fierce pursuit, the surrender! Then home from the war, bronzed heroes, welcomed, adored, submerged in golden seas of glory! With the volunteers sat their dear ones, proud, happy, and envied by the neighbors and friends who had no sons and brothers to send forth to the field of honor, there to win for the flag, or, failing, die the noblest of noble deaths. The service proceeded; a war chapter from the Old Testament was read; the first prayer was said; it was followed by an organ burst that shook the building, and with one impulse the house rose, with glowing eyes and beating hearts, and poured out that tremendous invocation
*God the all-terrible! Thou who ordainest! Thunder thy clarion and lightning thy sword!*
Then came the "long" prayer. None could remember the like of it for passionate pleading and moving and beautiful language. The burden of its supplication was, that an ever-merciful and benignant Father of us all would watch over our noble young soldiers, and aid, comfort, and encourage them in their patriotic work; bless them, shield them in the day of battle and the hour of peril, bear them in His mighty hand, make them strong and confident, invincible in the bloody onset; help them to crush the foe, grant to them and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory --
An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a robe that reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even to ghastliness. With all eyes following him and wondering, he made his silent way; without pausing, he ascended to the preacher's side and stood there waiting. With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, continued with his moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, uttered in fervent appeal, "Bless our arms, grant us the victory, O Lord our God, Father and Protector of our land and flag!"
The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside -- which the startled minister did -- and took his place. During some moments he surveyed the spellbound audience with solemn eyes, in which burned an uncanny light; then in a deep voice he said:
"I come from the Throne -- bearing a message from Almighty God!" The words smote the house with a shock; if the stranger perceived it he gave no attention. "He has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd, and will grant it if such shall be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have explained to you its import -- that is to say, its full import. For it is like unto many of the prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is aware of -- except he pause and think.
"God's servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he paused and taken thought? Is it one prayer? No, it is two -- one uttered, the other not. Both have reached the ear of Him Who heareth all supplications, the spoken and the unspoken. Ponder this -- keep it in mind. If you would beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at the same time. If you pray for the blessing of rain upon your crop which needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a curse upon some neighbor's crop which may not need rain and can be injured by it.
"You have heard your servant's prayer -- the uttered part of it. I am commissioned of God to put into words the other part of it -- that part which the pastor -- and also you in your hearts -- fervently prayed silently. And ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these words: 'Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!' That is sufficient. the *whole* of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory--*must* follow it, cannot help but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!
"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle -- be Thou near them! With them -- in spirit -- we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it -- for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.
(*After a pause.*) "Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits!"
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.
Not a christian, but still cool with me. The only time ANY religion bothers me is when people try to push it on me. This doesn't seem like that me.
It bothers me that they feel the need to hide it on thier product instead of having it on the box. Wonder if they have any "turn the other cheek" verses on any products?
It is incredibly ironic to me that people think it is appropriate to put scripture on a device designed to assist in the killing of others. I wonder why they feel the need to hide it? Why not put it on the box? How about the beliefs of our servicemen or officers that are not christian?
Irony maybe. But I don't see it as hiding it. More of just trying to keep it subtle. Not a lot of room on these things and no reason to be in your face about it. I still think it is pretty cool and once again I am not a Christian.
Christians are the most persicuted group in this country. Just imaging trying to be elected to major office if you were a christian...... oh wait a second, you have to be one to be elected. Every atheist I have ever heard of running, has had thier lack of faith used against them.
This is very True. Studies have shown that we are the most persecuted people in the country. In fact there was a news story recently about some people trying to get a mayor or town councilman or whatever ousted through the courts because he was an Atheist.
A large part of the population have also said they would not vote for someone who agrees with them 100% politically if they were also an Atheist. I don't get it, but some people are like that.
Same here brother.
I live in the south and was raised southern baptist. If I go around talking about how I think that a literal interpretation of Biblical scripture has a negative impact on humanity, I WILL and HAVE been persecuted.
However, if I had the spare change and the need for an ACOG, I wouldn't let this little scripture reference deter my purchase, even if it was some equally ridiculous Koranic BS.
Interesting. What is the "literal interpretation" of the Bible???
I was raised Methodist and then switched to Southern Baptist and am now in a semi non-denominational church and am unaware of how the Bible has a "negative impact" on humanity.
C4
In fairness, I'm not sure it's really apt to call Trijicon a "Christian-based" company, since that really has nothing to do with their specific corporate identity or the products they make the same way, say, a crucifix factory would (cheesy example I know, but I had to end the analogy somehow).
They are a company that happens to be made up of a considerable number of Christians which may and probably do include the founder(s), which is why outside of specific comforts or alienations from believers/non-believers it really has no influence on the final product and whether or not you should do business with them. I'd love to rock an ACOG on my spare AR because it's a good optic from a good company, and solely for that reason. Now if only I could afford the ACOG... and the spare AR!:p
Disagree. Putting Bible verses on your product is a HUGE DEAL. You don't do that if you are not lead by a Christian (as many people may reject your product because of it).
We give away Christian based literature if you choose to take it (have to actually select what you want from our website). I had a guy post on another forum that they would never buy from us because we "pushed" our religion on him. I advised him that he did not have to take anything if he did want too.
C4
Interesting. What is the "literal interpretation" of the Bible???
I was raised Methodist and then switched to Southern Baptist and am now in a semi non-denominational church and am unaware of how the Bible has a "negative impact" on humanity.
C4
Young earth Creationists, Geo centrists, and Flat earthers are the big ones that come to mind for me. There is a difference between looking at the bible and taking the good, important messages it has, and using it to deny reality.
It is very easy to use the bible for selfish or evil intentions. And sadly there are people who use it for just that.
There is a quote from a famous creationist that says if what we can see today contradicts the written word of the bible then we must assume that what we see is wrong.
What I find most amusing is that they've apparently been doing this for years and who knew until recently...?
Anyone know if the USG has supplied Trijicon optics to our *ahem* Muslim allies? I would fall out of my chair laughing if I found out that we did and they've been toting around Christian bible verses. :D
I have known about it for years. I also thought everyone else did.
Guess I was mistaken.
C4
Disagree. Putting Bible verses on your product is a HUGE DEAL. You don't do that if you are not lead by a Christian (as many people may reject your product because of it).
We give away Christian based literature if you choose to take it (have to actually select what you want from our website). I had a guy post on another forum that they would never buy from us because we "pushed" our religion on him. I advised him that he did not have to take anything if he did want too.
C4
Wow. Idiots on all sides aren't there. I was about to order a TRX extreme rail from my local shop. I think I will be hitting your site instead. Just because I feel like making up for that idiot.
Young earth Creationists, Geo centrists, and Flat earthers are the big ones that come to mind for me. There is a difference between looking at the bible and taking the good, important messages it has, and using it to deny reality.
Interesting (again). What is "reality."
It is very easy to use the bible for selfish or evil intentions. And sadly there are people who use it for just that.
I can use the phone book for that as well. There are and will always be crazy people that do things that have no justification in the Bible.
There is a quote from a famous creationist that says if what we can see today contradicts the written word of the bible then we must assume that what we see is wrong.
I think most Christians are "creationists" in some form. I know my wife and I are. I also believe that God created evolution and plants and animals do have this capability (in certain circumstances).
If people want to believe that they evolved from a fish, lizard or monkey, then that is just fine with me! I prefer to think that I was created by a God that made me in his image and loves me like a Father loves his child. YMMV
C4
Wow. Idiots on all sides aren't there. I was about to order a TRX extreme rail from my local shop. I think I will be hitting your site instead. Just because I feel like making up for that idiot.
We have no interest in "pushing religion" on anyone. Worse case is I might ask you go to church with me (if you were local) or if you were going through a rough time in your life, I would ask you if I could pray for you. ;)
C4
kaiservontexas
01-17-10, 20:19
I wonder if they did this to prove authenticity of the product?
PRGGodfather
01-17-10, 20:24
My 4x32 ACOG ends in JN812, another light-themed verse:
John 8:12
When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
I understand not liking some Christians. Gandhi said, "I love your Christ. It is some of your Christians with whom I have difficulty."
We are imperfect and horrible role models, to be sure. Some of us are hard to love, of that I am certain and freely confess -- yet, I am also certain we do not hold the monopoly on unloveability or lack of humility.
I literally just had a Double Double, Animal Style, extra toast for lunch :D The problem with them expanding is they're still family owned and will not sell any franchises. It keeps the quality control up and fresh products on tap. So far the ones I know of are in CA, NV, AZ and Utah.
Yeah we just got our first ones in the Salt Lake area. Been there once. Always VERY crowded.
One of the two in the valley I know of is on my way home from almost anywhere I go...
My 4x32 ACOG ends in JN812, another light-themed verse:
John 8:12
When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
I understand not liking some Christians. Gandhi said, "I love your Christ. It is some of your Christians with whom I have difficulty."
We are imperfect and horrible role models, to be sure. Some of us are hard to love, of that I am certain and freely confess -- yet, I am also certain we do not hold the monopoly on unloveability or lack of humility.
Yep. NO CHRISTIAN is perfect (and never will be).
C4
Interesting (again). What is "reality."
Reality may not be the best word. But I am referring to what is observable. Such as Heliocentrism, Evolution, a round earth, etc Gravity.
I can use the phone book for that as well. There are and will always be crazy people that do things that have no justification in the Bible.
Oh without question. I agree completely. And exactly my point. While I am an Atheist I feel the bible can be used for good as well. And bad people will try to use it for evil. That is just human nature.
I think most Christians are "creationists" in some form. I know my wife and I are. I also believe that God created evolution and plants and animals do have this capability (in certain circumstances).
There is a big difference between this and thinking we suddenly poped into being from nothing. But of course that is a very different discussion and we are getting WAY off topic.
If people want to believe that they evolved from a fish, lizard or monkey, then that is just fine with me! I prefer to think that I was created by a God that made me in his image and loves me like a Father loves his child. YMMV
A misrepresentation of Evolution. But once again, a very different discussion that I am happy to have, but I don't want to derail the thread anymore :)
We have no interest in "pushing religion" on anyone. Worse case is I might ask you go to church with me (if you were local) or if you were going through a rough time in your life, I would ask you if I could pray for you.
C4
Exactly why I will continue to support you and your business.
A good person is a good person. Religion, or lack therefor doesn't change that. And I will support a good person and business.
I find this great - more from the Easter Egg hunt perspective. Very cool - maybe my wife(who is very Christian) will let me buy more of their products. ;)
Yeah we just got our first ones in the Salt Lake area. Been there once. Always VERY crowded.
One of the two in the valley I know of is on my way home from almost anywhere I go...
Get your burger and fries "animal style" for maximum enjoyment :D Look up In N Out's secret menu for other stuff like protein style, flying dutchmen, etc.
I think the Trijicon thing is cool personally. If you're not religious why would you care anyways?
By the way I just looked up my ACOG TA31 RCO and it has
John 8:12
When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.
Seems more fitting for a flashlight but hey. Still cool.
I have absolutely no problem with it. If it offends anyone they are free to buy something else.
If people want to believe that they evolved from a fish, lizard or monkey, then that is just fine with me! I prefer to think that I was created by a God that made me in his image and loves me like a Father loves his child. YMMV
(Grant, nothing I am saying is directed at you -- just a follow on to your notes)
Belief in Creation and belief in science/evolution is not mutually exclusive. Belief in God creating his children and the universe they inhabit (which the Bible and other things tells us) does not say HOW He did so at all. In my understanding, God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. What this tells me is that He has a perfect understanding of how things work and can manipulate them to get His desired ends. God does not work through magic or non-natural means.
Unfortunately Christianity (and not just Christianity) has inherited a long existing background of accepted information that goes back thousands of years before they had the knowledge of nature that we have today so they attributed God's creations to extra-natural powers as they had no better idea. We have inherited these traditions and some Christians cannot divorce these traditions from the truths of the scripture and read too much into the scripture based on these long lasting traditions.
Chad
In-N-Out prints discreet references to Bible verses on their paper utensils. The print is small and out of the way, and only contains the book, chapter and verse numbers, not the actual text of the passages. The practice began in the 1980s during Rich Snyder's presidency, a reflection of the beliefs held by the Snyder family:
Burger and cheeseburger wrappers
Revelation 3:20—"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear My voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will dine with him, and he with Me."
Beverage cups and replicas
John 3:16—"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Milkshake cups
Proverbs 3:5—"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."
Double-Double wrapper
Nahum 1:7—"The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him."
Paper water cups (no longer in use) for customers. They are now used for thirsty employees.
John 14:6—"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
License plate keychain
1 Corinthians 13:13—"And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love."
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/1163/innoutbiblereference.jpg (http://img269.imageshack.us/i/innoutbiblereference.jpg/)
Interesting. What is the "literal interpretation" of the Bible???
I was raised Methodist and then switched to Southern Baptist and am now in a semi non-denominational church and am unaware of how the Bible has a "negative impact" on humanity.
C4
I don't really wish to get too deep into this discussion because I do respect peoples right to believe in what they choose to, and I don't want to offend any good hearted people. My family is 100% Christian but they interpret the Bible literally.
When I say literal I mean stuff like the earth was created in 6 days and Eve was made from the rib of a man and so on. There is much truth in the Bible but I feel that when we take things too literally we adopt beliefs that aren't rooted in reality. Often times this leads to a world view that seperates people into different groups, believers and non believers. When we look back at history and see all the blodshed that has resulted from this, it is apparent that we are misguided. This is the negative impact I am refering to.
In the Bible, Jesus teaches in parables, I view all the stories in parables. I believe in Christian values and am thankful that I was raised with this moral background.
Of course there are many different denominations with different views and beliefs in all religions, but in the end we are all the same. We need to figure out how to be united, not divided.
I really don't want to hear the arguments about religion and such, I'm just curious to hear what verses everyone has on their optics. I really think I need to pick up that TR24 now.
CarlosDJackal
01-17-10, 21:36
the point of these little christian symbols isn't to convert anyone. the point of the fish is today the same as it was yesterday- a symbol for christians to show other christians that they're christians. back then it was to show christians refuge in a place where they would be beheaded/hanged/cruicified/starved to death/tortured to death for their faith. today, it's just nice to see that there are still other christians out there. we aren't physically harmed for a views today, but we're still stigmatized and despised, and our numbers are halving every generation.
the symbols arent for you- they're to comfort us.
Say it, Brother!! Testify!! :p
I think it's freaking kewl that some of the scopes that have been used by our troops to send some of the insurgents to "paradise" had these verses in it. Talk aboutt hidden irony. :D
I'm now considering buying one of their scopes just to provide my support for an organization that isn't afraid to show their Christian values.
Ugh. Religion threads online...
On the one hand, I can't see why everyone gets up in arms about this. On the other hand, if they'd put verses from the Koran on there, we'd probably all be mad at them.
And for the record, I find no trouble reconciling my quite literal read of the Bible with what I know from science.
Interesting. What is the "literal interpretation" of the Bible???
I was raised Methodist and then switched to Southern Baptist and am now in a semi non-denominational church and am unaware of how the Bible has a "negative impact" on humanity.
C4
Think of how many christian denominations there are. They all claim to serve the same God yet can't agree on how to do it. That in itself seems pretty divisive. Last time I checked division has never been positive, especially if one is claiming to serve God. I wonder what title the first followers of Christ called themselves? Surely it wasn't catholic, Methodist, or baptist. Start preaching bible (even among "Christians") and you have an argument on your hands.
I don't really wish to get too deep into this discussion because I do respect peoples right to believe in what they choose to, and I don't want to offend any good hearted people. My family is 100% Christian but they interpret the Bible literally.
When I say literal I mean stuff like the earth was created in 6 days and Eve was made from the rib of a man and so on. There is much truth in the Bible but I feel that when we take things too literally we adopt beliefs that aren't rooted in reality. Often times this leads to a world view that seperates people into different groups, believers and non believers. When we look back at history and see all the blodshed that has resulted from this, it is apparent that we are misguided. This is the negative impact I am refering to.
In the Bible, Jesus teaches in parables, I view all the stories in parables. I believe in Christian values and am thankful that I was raised with this moral background.
Of course there are many different denominations with different views and beliefs in all religions, but in the end we are all the same. We need to figure out how to be united, not divided.
GOD is all powerful and have no issues with believing that GOD created the heavens and the earth. I also don't have any problem believing that he created Adam and Eve.
What it boils down to is faith. You either have it or you don't.
C4
I think it's freaking kewl that some of the scopes that have been used by our troops to send some of the insurgents to "paradise" had these verses in it. Talk aboutt hidden irony. :D
Exactly! That's one of the things I've been laughing about all evening. The other thought is if any Mooselimbs were provided Trijicons and then used them to send a muj on his way. How ironic would that be?! :D
Awesome!
Praise be to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
On the other hand, if they'd put verses from the Koran on there, we'd probably all be mad at them.
Well, yeah...
"Values" don't have anything to do with whether or not there's a point to doing something. To my mind this is a less garish form of the "Jesus Fish" people slap on the back of their cars.
I'll bet you anything no one, anywhere, EVER has been converted by a "Jesus Fish". Likewise, no one who isn't a Christian already is going to be the least bit influenced by these little passage-plants, except perhaps to feel alienated by it (which, on it's face, is an equally inappropriate take).
I don't know.
Leave your heart open, God will find his way in.
I have a new appreciation for Trijicon. Good on them.
Blade Tech has put the icthus on their gear for years. I've seen it elsewhere as well.
I like the subtle signals that Christians send to each other. Some are more obvious than the others (i.e. icthus). Others are more discreet nod between disciples in passing. I use various ones, often, and in places more obvious gestures and signs would be discouraged or prohibited.
Belief in Creation and belief in science/evolution is not mutually exclusive. Belief in God creating his children and the universe they inhabit (which the Bible and other things tells us) does not say HOW He did so at all. In my understanding, God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. What this tells me is that He has a perfect understanding of how things work and can manipulate them to get His desired ends. God does not work through magic or non-natural means.
Good stuff.
Amen, brother!
Be well and go with God.
As a Christian, I love the fact that Trijicon does this. There are very few Christian based companies left and even fewer ones that will publicize their beliefs!
Good for them.
C4
And even fewer that keep theirs closed on Sunday. Thanks for honoring the Sabbath.
As a Christian, I love the fact that Trijicon does this. There are very few Christian based companies left and even fewer ones that will publicize their beliefs!
Good for them.
C4
That would be because most businesses aren't religious based, they are about making money and believe being neutral on certain topics is the best way to make money from a wider group of consumers. The general exception are those businesses who make products specifically related to religion. For example if you print Bibles, you probably want to be Christian because most customers would rather buy from a Christian Bible seller than a Buddhist one.
And I suspect a great many private businesses are owned by Christians and they donate proceeds to their particular church. They probably don't advertise this fact because honestly it has nothing to do with anything. A private business owner giving money to support his religion is no different than him deciding to buy a boat.
As for those who do advertise, Chick Fil A comes to mind. And the only thing that bothers me about them being Christian is they aren't open on Sunday. But it is their business and they can close any damn time they choose, I simply get a pizza on Sunday. But damn those Chicken sandwiches are good.
And even fewer that keep theirs closed on Sunday. Thanks for honoring the Sabbath.
Actually, when the 10 commandments were written, the Sabbath (7th day God rested on) was Saturday (aka the end of the week). This is also why Jews observe the Sabbath on Saturday. So basically everytime Christians don't rest on Saturday and observe the Sabbath on the wrong day (Sunday) you violate one of the 10 Commandments.
These Trijicon threads come up every few years on various gun forums.
As a Christian, I think it's kinda cool.
My wife's RMR has the 1 TH 5:5 verse mentioned earlier and my RX30's have Isaiah 60:1 - "Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee."
Tomac
Actually, when the 10 commandments were written, the Sabbath (7th day God rested on) was Saturday (aka the end of the week). This is also why Jews observe the Sabbath on Saturday. So basically everytime Christians don't rest on Saturday and observe the Sabbath on the wrong day (Sunday) you violate one of the 10 Commandments.
I do believe a stoning is in order:p That is, if we are obeying the old testament.
I always thought it funny that god didnt think it was wrong to own another human being, so long as you gave them 1 day off. When I was a kid, I believed in santa and the tooth fairy. As soon as I was old enough to think for myself, I realized they were fairy tales. It seems to take a little longer for others.
Faith is not knowing what 2+2=. So instead of doing the research and developing an equation to solve the problem, you just decide to say that it equals 5. After all, feeling good is more important than actually being correct. Faith does nothing but short circuit a person's reasoning abilities.
QuietShootr
01-18-10, 08:32
"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle -- be Thou near them! With them -- in spirit -- we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it -- for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.
(*After a pause.*) "Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits!"
I'm not particularly religious (though I do believe in God). I suppose this is the difference between someone of my (and many of you, I suspect) thought patterns and the average sheep on the street: My reaction on reading the above was, "Of course that's what they were praying for."
And even fewer that keep theirs closed on Sunday. Thanks for honoring the Sabbath.
Thanks Carl.
C4
ENOUGH!
Ground covered, and then some.
montanadave
01-18-10, 09:11
Despite protestations by some that Christians are "persecuted" in this country, the vast majority of American citizens profess some form of religious affiliation, with 78.4% identifying themselves as Christian. Of that population, roughly 51% are Protestant (with evangelicals comprising more than half of that number), Catholics make up another 24%, and Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Orthodox Christians round out the mix.
Meanwhile, atheists and agnostics account for only 1.8% and 2.4%, respectively, although there are 12.1% of respondents identifying themselves as "unaffiliated." Source for these statistics is the Pew Forum's U.S. Religious Landscape Survey, conducted in 2007 with a sample size of approximately 35,000 Americans (http://religions.pewforum.org/reports).
If anybody should be carrying on about being a "persecuted" minority, it should be those of us who do not profess a religious faith or belief in God (at least as defined within the constraints of ethical monotheism). So for all the self-described Christian martyrs bemoaning their plight, how about climbing down off your cross--the rest of us could use the wood.
In my experience, businesses that make overt (or covert) displays of their Christian faith (whether by displaying an ichthus, cross, biblical reference, etc.) are no better or worse than businesses that don't. While many business owners may do this as a means of "witnessing" their faith, I suspect an equal number of businesses engage in this activity as simply another marketing ploy to attract a large consumer group who, for reasons elucidated by many other contributers to this thread, feel an instant and emotional connection with these merchants based purely on symbolism.
Regardless of the motivation, it's slick marketing and it moves product. Who could ask for more? As for me, I'll make my purchasing decisions based on product quality and customer service, fish or no fish.
Trijicon has been doing this for as long as I can remember, and every commercial ACOG I've ever seen had some sort of biblical reference.
Actually, when the 10 commandments were written, the Sabbath (7th day God rested on) was Saturday (aka the end of the week). This is also why Jews observe the Sabbath on Saturday. So basically everytime Christians don't rest on Saturday and observe the Sabbath on the wrong day (Sunday) you violate one of the 10 Commandments.
There is a little bit more to it.
Back to the topic. Good on trijicon. It was something I did not know about. I don't have any trijicon products myself any more so I can't go check. But it is an interesting and fun thing.
The in-n-out paper goods was something I had read a few weeks ago after going there the first time and reading their history on wikipedia...
I think its an noble cause, no matter how small or inconspicuous. I have lost good friends over following my beliefs correctly, so for a company to express its Faith is a pretty big deal imo...so thanks to trijicon and thanks to gandr
I'm actually glad there is a thread about this.
I'm fairly new to M4C, and I approached becoming a member with trepidation since I had the misconception that most members on here would be Bible Thumping cold blooded killers, and I thought , being a secular humanist with no affiliation to political Left or Right, I would have received scorn and scrutiny for voicing my opinion. I'm happy that I was way off. (I love weapons of all kinds and learning how to use them. I would only harm others if my life and others' lives depended on it.)
In regards to the Bible quotes on the optics, well, religious freedom is a very good thing and a company like Trijicon should not be stopped by anyone on what they can and cannot put on their optics (this is their choice). Still, in my mind, religious verse on such devices may be questionable ethically and morally. I think Bible verse belongs in the Bible and not on scopes built with the sole purpose of harming/killing other humans. I doubt Jesus would approve.
If Trij. is doing this as additional marketing, then they are exploiting the faithful ("It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God") and it is ethically wrong.
If they are doing this as an expression of their companies ideals and/or trying to give hope and guidance to the soldier using their product, then there are, in my opinion, better ways of doing this. Sure it doesn't hurt to have something like this on the scope, and you can ignore it, but the idea or reason behind still remains, and it should be questioned. It is a practice that can stir the proverbial shit pot unnecessarily.
Correct me if I'm wrong, does Trijicon have a contract with the DOD? :confused:
I think it's cool. That is all.
Bill Bryant
01-18-10, 10:28
Here's a quick challenge to my fellow followers of Jesus (all others need not read this).
What I find, sadly, among many followers of Christ today in America is that they are basically what I call existentialist Christians: they believe in Christianity because they like it, or feel good believing it--not because they have thought it through and can tell you why it is reasonable to defend as a true account of the real world we occupy. Put another way, most Christians I know will tell you they fervently believe Jesus is risen, but few can tell you why it is reasonable to believe this is actually, historically true.
It's time all of us believers learned how to winsomely explain why it is reasonable to believe that what we believe is true (I Peter 3:15). Do we know why it is reasonable to believe that Jesus in fact rose?--that we can make our "leap of faith" in the direction of the evidence, not in the opposite direction? Do we know why it is reasonable to believe that Jesus is divine? Do we know why it is reasonable to believe in the monotheistic creator God of Christian theism? Do we have a tight enough basic case to weather tough intellectual storms like the problem of evil?
For ten years I've been compiling a log of the sermons I've listened to at various churches. Sadly, while many of them (perhaps all) have emphasized how important it is to believe, not one in ten years has explained why it is reasonable to believe: why the belief in the central claim of historic Christianity--that Jesus is risen--isn't reasonably explained away as conspiracy, hoax, group hallucination, or legend, but is in fact best explained as historical fact.
Let's step it up, fellow believers, and prepare ourselves to give a reasonable explanation of our convictions.
Otherwise, one existentialist bubble is as good as another; let's all just live in whatever Matrix floats our boat.
If I read the replies correctly, the Trijicons supplied to .mil do NOT have the verses. Which would make existence or lack thereof of the verse on a given piece that one finds for sale somewhat indicative of whether it is stolen .gov property or not. Maybe not foolproof but at least one test that can be made.
Gutshot John
01-18-10, 11:08
Here's a quick challenge to my fellow followers of Jesus (all others need not read this).
What I find, sadly, among many followers of Christ today in America is that they are basically what I call existentialist Christians: they believe in Christianity because they like it, or feel good believing it--not because they have thought it through and can tell you why it is reasonable to defend as a true account of the real world we occupy. Put another way, most Christians I know will tell you they fervently believe Jesus is risen, but few can tell you why it is reasonable to believe this is actually, historically true.
It's time all of us believers learned how to winsomely explain why it is reasonable to believe that what we believe is true (I Peter 3:15). Do we know why it is reasonable to believe that Jesus in fact rose?--that we can make our "leap of faith" in the direction of the evidence, not in the opposite direction? Do we know why it is reasonable to believe that Jesus is divine? Do we know why it is reasonable to believe in the monotheistic creator God of Christian theism? Do we have a tight enough basic case to weather tough intellectual storms like the problem of evil?
For ten years I've been compiling a log of the sermons I've listened to at various churches. Sadly, while many of them (perhaps all) have emphasized how important it is to believe, not one in ten years has explained why it is reasonable to believe: why the belief in the central claim of historic Christianity--that Jesus is risen--isn't reasonably explained away as conspiracy, hoax, group hallucination, or legend, but is in fact best explained as historical fact.
Let's step it up, fellow believers, and prepare ourselves to give a reasonable explanation of our convictions.
Otherwise, one existentialist bubble is as good as another; let's all just live in whatever Matrix floats our boat.
If you haven't read C.S. Lewis I would highly recommend him for an intellectual's defense of Christianity and faith. (Four Loves, Mere Christianity, Screwtape Letters and The Great Divorce primarily)
If I read the replies correctly, the Trijicons supplied to .mil do NOT have the verses. Which would make existence or lack thereof of the verse on a given piece that one finds for sale somewhat indicative of whether it is stolen .gov property or not. Maybe not foolproof but at least one test that can be made.
I can't say if that's the case or not, if you meant my posts, as I've never spent much time with an issue ACOG. I've come across a few and tried to avoid all contact with them under the assumption that the possessor was also a thief.
Some groups are trying to ban Trijicon from selling to the mil now.
Here's a good quote from the article I read:
"It allows the Mujahedeen, the Taliban, al Qaeda and the insurrectionists and jihadists to claim they're being shot by Jesus rifles," he said.
haha.
Bill Bryant
01-18-10, 11:25
If you haven't read C.S. Lewis I would highly recommend him for an intellectual's defense of Christianity and faith. (Four Loves, Mere Christianity, Screwtape Letters and The Great Divorce primarily)Lewis is very good. I'd add his Abolition of Man, Problem of Pain, and Miracles to your list. A great Christian apologist indeed. Also on the must-read list would be anything by William Lane Craig and Peter Kreeft.
John_Wayne777
01-18-10, 11:30
I can't afford one.
I just get an uneasy feeling when anyone mixes religion and weaponry, or decides to go to war based on religious ideals.
Religious ideals can include loyalty, protecting the innocent, faithfulness to duty, standing in the gap like a sheepdog to protect the lambs from the wolves....
All admirable traits.
Faith is like a gun. Used properly it's a benefit to the world.
LockenLoad
01-18-10, 11:37
Does anyone know if each model has the same verse. or do the verses change on various units of the same model.
Also what do the government issue ones have?
They should have none, separation of church and state, this country was founded on religious freedom, Christianity should not be forced on someone anymore than Islam, our any other religion(there are soldiers of other religions who might find it offensive). That said this is America and there a private company they can do what they want, and as consumers we can choose to patronise there business our not. To me it's kinda like the guy you see at the football game with a big religious verse sign, I am agnostic, so it bothers me not, if one religion on this planet is the right one than hell is going to be overcrowded.
FlyAndFight
01-18-10, 11:51
... I am agnostic, so it bothers me not, if one religion on this planet is the right one than hell is going to be overcrowded.
Indeed it will be.
Keep in mind that the gates of hell are locked from within.
I am not personally a follower of the faith. I have a respect for belief, but I am a philosophical defender of observation and logic. I am a cynic in the classical sense, and that is my philosophical base.
That said, I think it's neat. If someone wants to subtly place their values on their products, more power to them. It doesn't change the product.
As for separation of church and state, many people have the wrong idea. It's not about keeping the church out of the state, it's about keeping the state out of the church. Now, that concept goes both ways to some degree, but our venerable founding fathers would likely have had no issue with this situation.
Naturally, I don't think any God has a place in the White House. That said, if a chair in the Oval Office had a scripture passage carved in the back, I would not complain. The references on our money are of no issue to me, either. Much of our philosophy of law is based within the confines of Biblical teachings, and most of those lessons are good lessons, no matter what God you follow.
If a company that sells to the government places such clues to be found on their civilian products, I do not see how it is of any consequence to those who are not of the faith.
Now, if they knock on my door and attempt to convert me, and persist after I tell them I am not interested, it's another story.
It's a neat trick, and it doesn't harm anyone. No reason to take it any farther than that. It's not like they are out building churches.
LockenLoad
01-18-10, 11:56
Some groups are trying to ban Trijicon from selling to the mil now.
Here's a good quote from the article I read:
"It allows the Mujahedeen, the Taliban, al Qaeda and the insurrectionists and jihadists to claim they're being shot by Jesus rifles," he said.
haha.
then maybe we should have a company make pig blood bullets too if it bothers them
ABC News: US Military Weapons Inscribed with Secret Jesus Bible Codes (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/us-military-weapons-inscribed-secret-jesus-bible-codes/story?id=9575794&page=1)
ABC News: US Military Weapons Inscribed with Secret Jesus Bible Codes (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/us-military-weapons-inscribed-secret-jesus-bible-codes/story?id=9575794&page=1)
It seems to me that the group that is complaining about the Bible verse references and wanting to keep the separation of church and state in the military is conveniently forgetting the military has chaplains within it's ranks. Following their logic you would think they would also be calling for chaplains to be given the boot, with that whole "separation of church and state" thing they're bitching about.
Besides who cares if the jihadists are shot with "Jesus rifles"? The jihadists are blowing our soldiers up with IED's in the name of Allah.
Bill Bryant
01-18-10, 12:20
"Secret Jesus Bible Codes" :rolleyes:
Next time my family gathers in the living room to read the scriptures together, I'm going to say, "Let's all turn to secret Jesus Bible code John 3:16 . . ."
ChicagoTex
01-18-10, 12:30
It seems to me that the group that is complaining about the Bible verse references and wanting to keep the separation of church and state in the military is conveniently forgetting the military has chaplains within it's ranks.
Chaplains have a duty to, and do perform religious counciling, observance, and rituals for ALL FAITHS RECOGNIZED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT, the scriptures on ACOGs espouse only one (potentially two, depending on which part of scripture is cited).
This comparison is busted.
...religious verse on such devices may be questionable ethically and morally. I think Bible verse belongs in the Bible and not on scopes built with the sole purpose of harming/killing other humans. I doubt Jesus would approve.
That might make some sense to me if I did indeed believe that Trijicon optics are built with the sole purpose of harming/killing other humans. I don't believe that, any more than I believe that the purpose of our nation's military is to harm/kill people.
If I believed that, I could not do what I do for a living.
I believe our nation's Armed Forces answer the higher calling of defending our nation from those that would do us harm. To boil it down to "killing people" (which is sometimes part of it) does those who serve, and all Americans, a disservice.
Military service is not in opposition to Christian beliefs, and I think Jesus' interaction with the Roman Centurion (Matthew 8, Luke 7, IIRC) backs that up. If that Centurion wanted to mark his shield and sword with an icthus as a reminder of his faith, I doubt Jesus would have objected.
If Trij. is doing this as additional marketing, then they are exploiting the faithful ("It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God") and it is ethically wrong. If they are doing this as an expression of their companies ideals and/or trying to give hope and guidance to the soldier using their product, then there are, in my opinion, better ways of doing this. Sure it doesn't hurt to have something like this on the scope, and you can ignore it, but the idea or reason behind still remains, and it should be questioned. It is a practice that can stir the proverbial shit pot unnecessarily.
As subtle as it is, it likely resulted from the folks running the company wishing to include a small expression of their faith on their commercial products. Trying to assign any nefarious intent or ethical lapses to this is IMO a non-starter.
BTW, welcome to m4carbine.
I'm actually glad there is a thread about this.
I'm fairly new to M4C, and I approached becoming a member with trepidation since I had the misconception that most members on here would be Bible Thumping cold blooded killers, and I thought , being a secular humanist with no affiliation to political Left or Right, I would have received scorn and scrutiny for voicing my opinion. I'm happy that I was way off. (I love weapons of all kinds and learning how to use them. I would only harm others if my life and others' lives depended on it.)
In regards to the Bible quotes on the optics, well, religious freedom is a very good thing and a company like Trijicon should not be stopped by anyone on what they can and cannot put on their optics (this is their choice). Still, in my mind, religious verse on such devices may be questionable ethically and morally. I think Bible verse belongs in the Bible and not on scopes built with the sole purpose of harming/killing other humans. I doubt Jesus would approve.
I think there is a lot that you do not understand about Jesus. Defending one life (for instance) is just fine.
If Trij. is doing this as additional marketing, then they are exploiting the faithful ("It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God") and it is ethically wrong.
If they are doing this as an expression of their companies ideals and/or trying to give hope and guidance to the soldier using their product, then there are, in my opinion, better ways of doing this. Sure it doesn't hurt to have something like this on the scope, and you can ignore it, but the idea or reason behind still remains, and it should be questioned. It is a practice that can stir the proverbial shit pot unnecessarily.
Correct me if I'm wrong, does Trijicon have a contract with the DOD? :confused:
Trijicon didn't add the hidden verses to their optics to get Christians to buy them.
Trijicon has HUGE contracts with the DoD.
C4
Chaplains have a duty to, and do perform religious counciling, observance, and rituals for ALL FAITHS RECOGNIZED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT, the scriptures on ACOGs espouse only one (potentially two, depending on which part of scripture is cited).
This comparison is busted.
I think that it is still valid. The point that I was trying to make is that, if they want complain about separation of church and state because of a Bible verse, they should also be complaining about chaplains within the military. No matter what religion they belong to. Whether it be Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Mormons, or whatever else is recognized. Not just Christianity almost exclusively.
Trijicon didn't add the hidden verses to their optics to get Christians to buy them.
Maybe, maybe not. Not sure there's any way to ever know that one way or the other.
I can tell you that my experience with small local vendors like plumbers and other home repair types has been that the biggest scumbags have the fish on the back of their trucks. I think this is a ploy by the con men to try one more technique to get people to trust them. At this point I would be inclined NOT to hire someone with overt religious messages on their vehicles or in their company logos, that's how bad my experience has been.
Belmont31R
01-18-10, 13:04
I think that it is still valid. The point that I was trying to make is that, if they want complain about separation of church and state because of a Bible verse, they should also be complaining about chaplains within the military. No matter what religion they belong to. Whether it be Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Mormons, or whatever else is recognized. Not just Christianity almost exclusively.
There is nothing in the Constitution about seperation of church and state. Lots of government "items" have religious text on them including our money.
People have the freedom to religion not from religion. Its not a crime for someone to stand on a street corner and read the bible.
This is so stupid...the crying over this. People get their panties in a bunch...lots of units pray together before going on a mission. We have religious sermons at ceremonies. We have chaplains on the battlefield...most of whom are christian based. We have bibles available that even have desert camo covers. I was once ordered to attend a prayer lunch. I was told I didn't have to pray or participate but had to attend.
Yet a non-flashy few numbers on a piece of gear hardly anyone even knew what meant causes people to get all butthurt...?
TA31F on my Jesus Rifle is JN8:12
Me too, never noticed it before all this hoopla. I think its cool as **** they all have something to do with light, and will thus tell everyone I meet about it. Im atheist too.
Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.
QuietShootr
01-18-10, 13:19
Maybe, maybe not. Not sure there's any way to ever know that one way or the other.
I can tell you that my experience with small local vendors like plumbers and other home repair types has been that the biggest scumbags have the fish on the back of their trucks. I think this is a ploy by the con men to try one more technique to get people to trust them. At this point I would be inclined NOT to hire someone with overt religious messages on their vehicles or in their company logos, that's how bad my experience has been.
Yeah. My first boss out of college used to say if he could find them in the Christian Yellow Pages, they were COD only.
Maybe, maybe not. Not sure there's any way to ever know that one way or the other.
I can tell you that my experience with small local vendors like plumbers and other home repair types has been that the biggest scumbags have the fish on the back of their trucks. I think this is a ploy by the con men to try one more technique to get people to trust them. At this point I would be inclined NOT to hire someone with overt religious messages on their vehicles or in their company logos, that's how bad my experience has been.
That's a good point Rob, I've seen that too, too many times. The 'remnant' that is walking that way doesn't need to advertise. They live it. I purposely wouldn't put a bumper on my car because I wouldn't be a good example when some jerk cuts me off..;) Christian infers Christ like. I'm not sure that's possible, I'll stick with the term believer. Anyhow, the Trijicon thing doesn't offend me, I totally ok with it.
100% behind them. Personally, I would make sure it wasn't a New Testament quote since I'm Jewish, but this applies only to me. I'm glad to see them stand up for what they believe in. Religion in general has been bashed in America(not going to get into it, we all know it's occurring; it's also someone's right to bash).
We have many good Christian friends and we find we have much more in common than not. The small town we live near has a Christmas parade every year and the downtown is decorated with certain Christmas symbols. I say good. Me, personally, would much rather be around religious people than not. Do they use taxpayer $? Sure, and I have no prob. with that. The vast majority around here are Christian. Is this PC? No, and I'm glad. PC is just another way of forcing a set of values many don't agree with down our throats.
Good for them standing up for their beliefs in the intolerant PC age.
I find it very interesting that this thread has made such an impact on this site. Typically most gun guys I come in contact with claim to be Christian (please note I said typically). It really does not amaze me that Trijicon would do this. From what I have read the government issued products do not have the scriptures. So for all the people worried about possible lack of separation of church & state that argument should be negated. As mentioned before people have the opportunity to buy them or not. Of course the argument could be made that unknowing non-Christians could buy this product, but really what’s the big deal. People buy hundreds of products everyday with little concern what country is making them or what religion the people who make the product are.
In my life I have ran the gambit of religions. I have been a non-caring, Atheist, Agnostic, Pagan, & Christian. In my opinion nobody practices a lack of religion. It takes just as much effort to argue why you are an Atheist as it does to argue why you are not. Every group will probably say they are being persecuted. That statement is true every group is by someone at some point. Just remember how it feels to be persecuted & keep it in mind when you start to debate beliefs.
Now as far as the original post is concerned I am happy that Trijicon is doing this. It’s their company let them do with it as they please.
ABC news story on it.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/us-military-weapons-inscribed-secret-jesus-bible-codes/story?id=9575794
That might make some sense to me if I did indeed believe that Trijicon optics are built with the sole purpose of harming/killing other humans. I don't believe that, any more than I believe that the purpose of our nation's military is to harm/kill people.
No, the sole purpose of our American military isn't intended to harm or kill people, but killing is a part of it, and we are all trained to do this as efficiently as possible like any soldier (or marine, sailor, airman) in any military - this is why our military is so good at what it does.
The ACOG makes this a very efficient process indeed. And if the ACOG main purpose isn't for this, what is it for then? Plinking? Hunting game only? Looking at things/people far away? Just lipstick on a pig. Hell, you can use a rifle to drive in a tent peg, but its primary use is still meant to do severe bodily damage as many times as possible until the target is dead/non-responsive.
In Iraq my patriotic happy bubble was popped upon witnessing acts my fellow soldiers committed that I previously believed they could never do. I always believed that there were always just a few bad apples amongst us, well, it isn't just a few, and war made plenty more rotten. This debate could go on for days, but I am still a sincere believer that the American military, compared to most in recorded history, is the most honorable one. And I will always defend all veterans, no matter what they may have done during war. Let us not forget that militaries exist because there is always some need kill other humans (as a last line of defense we hope).
Military service is not in opposition to Christian beliefs, and I think Jesus' interaction with the Roman Centurion (Matthew 8, Luke 7, IIRC) backs that up. If that Centurion wanted to mark his shield and sword with an icthus as a reminder of his faith, I doubt Jesus would have objected.
But he is against killing, which is why military service exists. If militaries existed for benign peacekeeping missions, or disaster relief, or whatever mission that does not involve killing other humans, than it wouldn't be called military service. And I doubt he'd cheer on his disciples as they went about killing with icthus on their weapons and armor. You know, love thy enemy and all that stuff, the golden rule, central Christian beliefs, etc.
As subtle as it is, it likely resulted from the folks running the company wishing to include a small expression of their faith on their commercial products. Trying to assign any nefarious intent or ethical lapses to this is IMO a non-starter.
I was only postulating not setting a fact, and so are you. Unless Trijicon comes out and tells everyone why the verses are on there, all of us will be in the dark about this (which is why this thread began).
BTW, welcome to m4carbine.
Thanks, happy to join the good fight!
heartbreakridge01
01-18-10, 14:12
I dont see any reason to get butt hurt over it. Lets look at the bottom line, religious or not. Trijicon makes high quality optics thats all there is to it. They put a hidden bible verse on there optics in a way that 75% of the people would have no clue about until this article popped up.
Mine has Ezekiel 25:17
'The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides with the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who in the name of charity and good will shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon those with great vengeance and with furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know that my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.'
I wish! lol but it is 1 John 1:7, on a TA-33-8
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleans us from all sin.
ABC news story on it.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/us-military-weapons-inscribed-secret-jesus-bible-codes/story?id=9575794
The cat's out of the bag for sure, now.
"A photo on a Department of Defense Web site shows Iraqi soldiers being trained by U.S. troops with a rifle equipped with the bible-coded sights."
Priceless!!
"'It allows the Mujahedeen, the Taliban, al Qaeda and the insurrectionists and jihadists to claim they're being shot by Jesus rifles,' he said."
"Jesus rifles", ha ha!
wait until they explain the KX3 symbolism should there be one over there.
Religious ideals can include loyalty, protecting the innocent, faithfulness to duty, standing in the gap like a sheepdog to protect the lambs from the wolves....
All admirable traits.
Faith is like a gun. Used properly it's a benefit to the world.
This is very true. However, sadly, religious ideals can also include traits that are not so admirable, such as, believing that people deserve to spend eternity burning in hell just because they have differing views, which obviously is going to offend many genuinely good people. (of course not all denominations believe this way.)
If we use just a little logic we will see that we are all products of our environment. If I was born in Saudi Arabia, there would be a high chance that I would be a muslim, if I was born in India I would most likely be Hindu etc. Of course there are exceptions. I was born in a place that is dominately Christian. However, after MUCH deep soul searching that involved doing alot of personal research and getting away from those who are spoonfeeding me their version of the truth, my views have changed. Though I still retain many Christian values such as, "do unto others.............. which I see as "admirable traits".
Some may argue with my "we are products of our environment" view. Some that I have spoke with have argued that God chose certain people to be his followers or that it is a Christians responsiblity to witness to others and make sure that no one in the world goes without hearing the story of Christ and given the chance to repent and accept Him. The problem with this is that it has not always historically been possible to get the Gospel to every nook and cranny on Earth and when the Bible was written there were many places on Earth that the "prophets" and disciples didn't even know existed. As far as believing that certain people were "chosen" by God, this also suggest that others were "chosen" for damnation. Again, common logic prevents me from adopting such beliefs.
As a few other posters have espoused, it is very nice, and rare for that matter, when people of opposing views can civilly disagree without becoming hateful and judgemntal of one another. It's nice when ones freedom of speech and religion are respected on a forrum. Of course I didn't expect anything less from M4C.:) Truly American.
I think there is a lot that you do not understand about Jesus. Defending one life (for instance) is just fine.
Which Jesus? The one in Matthew? Luke? Mark? John?
Take 4 New Testaments, open one to Matthew, open one to Luke, open one to Mark, and open one to John. Now read each one comparatively. You will find that the Gospels vary in detail, from little to no variance, all the way up to great and irreconcilable differences in what Jesus did, didn't do, how he did it, what was said to him, what he said back, etc. What this all means is that (most biblical scholars will agree) each Gospel portrays a different Jesus, and a different story of what happened in his life. Try it out, you will see that some of the differences you may discover will deeply shake your faith. This is why all this is taught in the best seminary schools, to weed out those with erroneous/weak misconceptions of Christianity.
All we can say is that the 10 commandments prohibit killing, that Jesus mostly said love you enemy and hold them close, and that he never recommended murder as a means to solve any problems.
Trijicon didn't add the hidden verses to their optics to get Christians to buy them.
So far that you know. Again, I was exploring theoretical reasons behind their actions. I wasn't stating that I knew for sure. Let them tell us, then we'll be sure.
Oh, Grant, expect my business around summer time when I will be neck deep in my first build.
vietboy1st
01-18-10, 14:27
nto trying to be stupid or anything but i dont' believe in God. Just because people many people beliving in God which made you kind of lost and don't know what to believe. lol. Also i own a Trijicon 4x32 RCO acog also:D
http://trijicon.com/user/parts/products1.cfm?PartID=637&back_row=4&categoryID=3 :o
ForTehNguyen
01-18-10, 14:27
call your ACOGed weapons "Bible Blaster" now. Second Coming, reload reload! A cookie to whoever finds out what thats from.
nto trying to be stupid or anything but i dont' believe in God. Just because people many people beliving in God which made you kind of lost and don't know what to believe. lol. Also i own a Trijicon 4x32 RCO acog also:D
http://trijicon.com/user/parts/products1.cfm?PartID=637&back_row=4&categoryID=3 :o
What the ****?
Submariner
01-18-10, 14:31
Let's remember some of his words:
"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Race, creed, color, whatever. What is the content of Trijicon's character? Has anyone gotten a product from them which failed or was defective? Did Trijicon stand behind it and make it right? This is what matters.
I bought my TA31F's because the Marine Corps adopted it as the ACO, not because there was a bible verse on the side.
I'd kinda' like to see an ACOG with John 14:6: "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Haji meets the Father through an ACOG! :D
All we can say is that the 10 commandments prohibit murder, that Jesus mostly said love you enemy and hold them close, and that he never recommended murder as a means to solve any problems.
Fixed it for ya.;)
Murder isn't permitted; killing sometimes is permitted. KJV is wrong when it says "kill"; the Hebrew word is murder. Look at the case laws interpreting the Ten Commandments, specifically, Exodus 22:2-3:
2If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him.
3If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.
In our language,
2 "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed; 3 but if it happens [a] after sunrise, he is guilty of bloodshed.
"A thief must certainly make restitution, but if he has nothing, he must be sold to pay for his theft.
When the thief breaks in after dark and is struck so that he dies, he is certainly killed but the act isn't punishable as murder.
The 10 Commandments(actually 613 total) don't prohibit killing. In Hebrew it is best interpreted as "Thou Shalt Not Murder". Nothing wrong with killing in the right circumstances. Don't know what the New Testament says but guessing it's similar/same. I'm just glad to read some of the responses that have been posted. Reminds me most of us are much more alike than different. I believe the libs have a divide and conquer sort of thing going on; be it with religion, race, sex, etc.
And here we go! (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/us-military-weapons-inscribed-secret-jesus-bible-codes/story?id=9575794)
""It's wrong, it violates the Constitution, it violates a number of federal laws," said Michael "Mikey" Weinstein of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation"
never trust a grown man who goes by Mikey.
Submariner
01-18-10, 14:54
""It's wrong, it violates the Constitution, it violates a number of federal laws," said Michael "Mikey" Weinstein of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation"
never trust a grown man who goes my Mikey.
And a lawyer, at that.:rolleyes:
Do the Izzies use ACOG's? Yup.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3102/3233529121_d5f4ca07de.jpg
and
n1204740268_30041097_4887.jpg
and
n1204740268_30041151_1428.jpg
from http://doubletapper.blogspot.com/2008/12/idf-sniper-training.html
The preceding has a link at the bottom of the page to Women of the IDF, too.
More pics here:
http://www.isayeret.com/updates/pastphotos2.htm
Do a search on the page for ACOG.
TheIDF hasn't bitched about the verses, have they? Why should Mr. Weinstein?
One pic shows an ACOG on an ARMS mount. I wonder if they know about Mark LaRue's program for collecting broken ARMS mounts and replacing them with LaRue mounts?:D
the Bamster
01-18-10, 15:07
Looked thru my scope and right there, plain as day............ a cross!!!! These people have to be stopped.:D
Painting with a broad brush...
I'm suspicious of all "belief systems" and group think(religion,political parties,etc).
Especially when based on "faith" and having the ultimate motivator(eternity).
Having said that...
I have no problem with this(Trijicon).
Or with whatever it is people need to feel at peace...Until it becomes more than that and really starts steppping on toes.
Heard about this a month ago or so. Won't really weigh into the philosophical argument other than to say that it is their company and they can do what they want. Maybe it is a form of OPSEC to prevent Hajji from using them? ;)
However, I can report that my TriPower manufactured in 2008 has no biblical verses referenced. :(
Looked thru my scope and right there, plain as day............ a cross!!!! These people have to be stopped.:D
Haha... my Triji TR24G has a triangle in it... the Trinity super-imposed over all that come within my sights no doubt. :p By the way it is inscribed with John 12:46, (I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness). Being pretty much an optimistic agnostic with Christian roots this does not bother me at all. It will not, however, make me shoot any better.
Mine has Ezekiel 25:17
The funny thing is, Ezekiel 25:17 isn't even remotely close to the Pulp Fiction quote.
CarlosDJackal
01-18-10, 15:30
...On the other hand, if they'd put verses from the Koran on there, we'd probably all be mad at them...
Why would I get mad at them for that? They could put satanic verses on those scopes and it wouldn't bother me in the least. Even if I already owned one, God gave us Dremel Tools for a reason. :D
I just wouldn't think of it as being as kewl and would never even consider buying any of their products.
CarlosDJackal
01-18-10, 15:35
Looked thru my scope and right there, plain as day............ a cross!!!! These people have to be stopped.:D
Dammit!! I looked through all my Aimpoint RDSs and each one of them had the Hindu symbol for a "good marriage" (http://www.chacha.com/question/what-does-the-red-dot-on-the-indians-forehead-mean).
Everyone's doing it!! :p
Fixed it for ya.;)
Thanks, I should have looked it up before posting.
Murder isn't permitted; killing sometimes is permitted. KJV is wrong when it says "kill"; the Hebrew word is murder. Look at the case laws interpreting the Ten Commandments, specifically, Exodus 22:2-3:
I just have trouble reconciling 2000+ year old conceptions of ethics with modern life.
It's like using a sling shot and then expecting the same result using a .45 ACP - meaning that a few parts of the Old/New Testaments are still relevant, but most of it is antiquated Bronze Age ethical structuring for uneducated and culturally isolated Middle Eastern people.
BTW, if I had the money I'd still get an ACOG, I also view these tools from a functionalist perspective, even if I use them for paper targets.
William B.
01-18-10, 16:01
the point of these little christian symbols isn't to convert anyone. the point of the fish is today the same as it was yesterday- a symbol for christians to show other christians that they're christians. back then it was to show christians refuge in a place where they would be beheaded/hanged/cruicified/starved to death/tortured to death for their faith. today, it's just nice to see that there are still other christians out there. we aren't physically harmed for a views today, but we're still stigmatized and despised, and our numbers are halving every generation.
the symbols arent for you- they're to comfort us.
Well said.
This.
Have you noticed that Christians and overweight people are the only ones that it's socially acceptable to lambaste, mock, and belittle, with absolutely little to no repercussions?
Nah, it's just that they are such easy friggin targets. Deserve every bit of it really.
I think its a cool idea they do this. especially having the verses be about light of some sort.
After reading this thread I had to get my TR-21 out and sure enough, there it was. Of course I had to get my reading glasses out to see it (it really stinks to get older).
For the record, mine is Psalms 112:4, "Even in darkness light dawns for the upright, for the gracious and compassionate and righteous man."
Bill Bryant
01-18-10, 16:43
I just have trouble reconciling 2000+ year old conceptions of ethics with modern life.
It's like using a sling shot and then expecting the same result using a .45 ACP - meaning that a few parts of the Old/New Testaments are still relevant, but most of it is antiquated Bronze Age ethical structuring for uneducated and culturally isolated Middle Eastern people.
If Jesus rose from the dead, the Old Testament can be fit (however awkwardly) into a workable, and (obviously) true, worldview (as can religious hypocrites, corrupt religious establishments, the Crusades, etc.). If Jesus didn't rise from the dead--if the resurrection story is a hoax, or a conspiracy, or the gullible ranting of hallucinating wannabe cult leaders, or a turf-protecting religious legend--then why even mess with fitting the Old Testament (or anything else) in? The crucial question then is the resurrection claim. It all hinges on this one thing.
(And to paraphrase C. S. Lewis, if Christianity is true it's infinitely important; if it's not true it's totally unimportant--the one thing it can't possibly be is moderately important.)
Nah, it's just that they are such easy friggin targets. Deserve every bit of it really.
Just because someone may believe differently or be overweight, sometimes through no fault of their own, does not mean they deserve to be mocked. Easy target or not. There is such a thing as treating other people in the same manner that you wish to be treated.
Well, if you get bored with this thread or need further reading, you can enjoy the well reasoned comments about it at Digg.com: U.S. Military Weapons Inscribed With Secret Jesus Bible Code (http://digg.com/world_news/U_S_Military_Weapons_Inscribed_With_Secret_Jesus_Bible_Code?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+digg%2Fpopular+%28Popular+Stories%29)
I don't care what they put on their optics, whether it be for Jesus, Satan, Allah, Buddha, or Charlie Chaplain. It's essentially an internal numbering system anyway.
I'm just tired of all these people complaining about every pea they can find to put under their mattresses.
QuietShootr
01-18-10, 17:09
""It's wrong, it violates the Constitution, it violates a number of federal laws," said Michael "Mikey" Weinstein of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation"
I bet I found the problem. But I'm not saying shit.
Submariner
01-18-10, 17:11
BTW, if I had the money I'd still get an ACOG, I also view these tools from a functionalist perspective, even if I use them for paper targets.
Only if most of your shooting is outside of 50m. And even then, an off set T-1 is a great enhancement. Otherwise, get an Aimpoint and, perhaps, an Aimpoint magnifier.
I just have trouble reconciling 2000+ year old conceptions of ethics with modern life.
King Alfred of England declared that Scripture was the basis of English law. That common law is the basis of our legal system.
Read here. (http://books.google.com/books?id=yDkUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA537&lpg=PA537&dq=king+alfred+common+law+bible&source=bl&ots=aW7587w5Ho&sig=fQLyTIbt55rk4wQHHVLpydMIkG0&hl=en&ei=2edUS_CzE9Oc8AbR5sWoBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CBUQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=king%20alfred%20common%20law%20bible&f=false)
The notion of self defense comes from Ex.22:2-3. And that taking a life to defend mere property is not lawful. Note that if the thief comes in the night, you don't necessarily know he is a thief; he might be coming to do your household harm. If he is not a thief and comes to bring harm, he can lawfully be killed, day or night, by implication.
ETA: The notion is that for something to be law, it ought be fixed, uniform and universal. Malum per se instead of malum prohibitum; the Law of Nature and Nature's God as opposed to the law of men, e.g. kings, emperors and other tyrants, is the stated position of most of the Founding Fathers.
I bet I found the problem. But I'm not saying shit.
Could this be why I mentioned the IDF uses them?
Maybe, maybe not. Not sure there's any way to ever know that one way or the other.
I can tell you that my experience with small local vendors like plumbers and other home repair types has been that the biggest scumbags have the fish on the back of their trucks. I think this is a ploy by the con men to try one more technique to get people to trust them. At this point I would be inclined NOT to hire someone with overt religious messages on their vehicles or in their company logos, that's how bad my experience has been.
So Trijicon is scummy?
Submariner
01-18-10, 17:34
This was posted on LF by a Canuckistani:
And the religious issue is BS, they aren't being shot with 'Jesus Rifles', they're being shot with freedom rifles whose rounds are being guided by Jesus optics. Like the same way their rounds are guided by Allah, only ours, you know, hit the target.
travistheone
01-18-10, 17:35
I don't see a problem with it, most people probably never noticed. What harm is a little blessing gonna do? even to a non-christian.
Submariner & Quiet- I'll say it(nicely) since I am a tribe member. ******* Weinstein makes me sick. Don't let the sorry bastard lead you to feel all of us think that way. Willing to bet he was raised Reform. Had the distinct pleasure of being around many IDF'ers in NOLA. They most definitely would not echo his sentiments. Only thing worse is the Hollywood type that set foot in a synagogue once or twice a year but scream about anything that is religious they don't agree with. Makes me sick. Just wish ya'll knew how the majority feel. Not like this sorry ACLU type.
Submariner
01-18-10, 18:37
Submariner & Quiet- I'll say it(nicely) since I am a tribe member.
You get it whereas most do not.
One race (human); many tribes.
There are a$$holes in each tribe.
RogerinTPA
01-18-10, 18:51
This was posted on LF by a Canuckistani:
And the religious issue is BS, they aren't being shot with 'Jesus Rifles', they're being shot with freedom rifles whose rounds are being guided by Jesus optics. Like the same way their rounds are guided by Allah, only ours, you know, hit the target.
Outstanding! Just about sums it up.
As far as Trijicon's biblical references are concerned, I have no problems with it. Good for them.:cool:
So Trijicon is scummy?
wow, there's a reach. :rolleyes:
How did I know a thread involving religion would lead to people going out of their way to misinterpret things to get offended?
the Israeli Defense Forces were obviously so irritated by the secret Divinci Code level New Testament passages that they bought THOUSANDS OF FCUKING ACOGs.
This is just ridiculous and I might have to pony up and buy another ACOG just to piss off Brian "loose lips" Ross.
what a thread...some of these posts really make me smile and a few are just kinda sad.
that is all
xjustintimex
01-18-10, 19:31
I have a 3x30 cog and thanks to to this forum I found this
1 John 1:7 (King James Version)
7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
This just makes me want to buy an acog.
Powder_Burn
01-18-10, 20:38
Now ABC News is on it...
Pentagon Supplier for Rifle Sights Says It Has 'Always' Added New Testament References
http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=9575794
Alpha Sierra
01-18-10, 20:46
the point of these little christian symbols isn't to convert anyone. the point of the fish is today the same as it was yesterday- a symbol for christians to show other christians that they're christians. back then it was to show christians refuge in a place where they would be beheaded/hanged/cruicified/starved to death/tortured to death for their faith. today, it's just nice to see that there are still other christians out there. we aren't physically harmed for a views today, but we're still stigmatized and despised, and our numbers are halving every generation.
the symbols arent for you- they're to comfort us.
+1
And Amen, brother.
xjustintimex
01-18-10, 21:31
1Jn1:7
you got the same as mine
Listen I think it’s cool what trijicon does. Allot of companies do things like this but with out the religion part. I am agnostic and really don’t believe in allot of things you folks do but I support company’s that want to do this. I don’t think we should bitch about it really. It’s not your company and it’s not your product. If you don’t like it don’t use it. I trust my life to trijicon and I know allot of people in allot of careers that do also. No matter what’s put on the side they are the same product to people love and use. I think it just a little cooler.
If I wasn't so broke I'd turn 2 of my rifles into "Jesus Rifles". ;)
vietboy1st
01-18-10, 22:28
found it.... Wow...
rrpederson
01-18-10, 22:33
wow i didnt see the outcome of this thread coming.
Only if most of your shooting is outside of 50m. And even then, an off set T-1 is a great enhancement. Otherwise, get an Aimpoint and, perhaps, an Aimpoint magnifier.
Yeah, I can't just shoot at one range. Very boring. Besides it doesn't flex your capabilities, there is no challenge. It's like studying Liechtenauer only, and only knowing effective strikes from the top instead of being well rounded and capable by also studying Fiore dei Liberi and embracing effective unterhau strikes as well. Def. getting the H-1 too, though.
King Alfred of England declared that Scripture was the basis of English law. That common law is the basis of our legal system.
Basis of law is different than literal interpretations, i.e.; Sharia Law in Saudi Arabia. English Common Law has also transformed since it's inception by good ole' Al. As you know this happens by precedents. If Law does not transform, than it is not Law as we know it today, and instead it becomes antithetic to the point of keeping order in a constantly transforming cultural value systems and human social environments. This is a Highly debatable subject. I like! I would have been burnt at the stake 400 years ago for revealing that I am a secular humanist (atheist). This is not true today... I hope it stays this way.
Once you try to put God back in law, it immediately becomes intolerant and against the idea of freedom of expression/belief and will begin to oppress those who are non-Christians or non-believers by taking the stance that they are wrong. This is why I still have trouble with people swearing on the Bible to say the truth in a court room (or during inaugurations). Why not swear on the Constitution?
An objective and thorough study of the Founding Fathers will reveal that most of them were either Deist or just plain non-Christians. They spoke of God and the Creator only to appeal to the masses and be listened to by practicing Christians, but most did not believe in such and would not identify with period or modern Christians. T.J. actually wrote a new version of the New Testament taking all the religious and miraculous stuff out, and focused on very earthly teachings of Jesus. Don't get me started on John Adams.
Human is a human - universal truth.
Humans die - universal truth.
There is a God(s) - not so ( I would have burnt in some kind of Hell by now, or struck by lightning or smitten in Iraq).
Again debatable. But now we are waaayyyy off topic. :eek:
ABC News: US Military Weapons Inscribed with Secret Jesus Bible Codes (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/us-military-weapons-inscribed-secret-jesus-bible-codes/story?id=9575794&page=1)
I wonder if next week they will report the attempts of In and Out Burger to secretly convert everyone to Jesus.
:D
Maybe they are a company with christian values.
Resonates with me.
What I find most amusing is that they've apparently been doing this for years and who knew until recently...?
Anyone know if the USG has supplied Trijicon optics to our *ahem* Muslim allies? I would fall out of my chair laughing if I found out that we did and they've been toting around Christian bible verses. :D
Not nearly as much as many Christians erronoeusly believe... Jesus Christ (Esu Jmmanuel) is referred to as Isa ibn Miriam (Isa son of Mary) and according to some imams Isa ibn Miriam is the Meshech or Messiah that THEY, TOO, are waiting for.
Irony of ironies...
...and they send the local reporting crew up to Wixom to cover this "non-story." Oh, the humanity! Wait - it's newsworthy; hike it up 96 to Wixom ASAP ! :D :p
http://www.wxyz.com/news/story/Weapons-Company-Uses-Biblical-Messages/kz4cn5hA8EShjLGhCjrrQg.cspx
ETA
i guess it's not all that much of a coincidence that ABC "breaks" this story two days after the accurate shooter posting.
dookie1481
01-19-10, 02:39
I am not sure why people get upset over this. I am an Atheist with no love for religion, and I find this pretty cool.
Agnostic, but I think it's cool too. They can do what the hell they want with a product they sell.
Jay
These Biblical Passages are meant to inspire motivation right? So why not just have all around, bumper sticker style, motivational phrases. I.E. :
"If you're angry and you know it, squeeze away."
"If there's hate in your heart, let it out (of the barrel)."
AND
"WWJD?" (That's got to be a moral delima one there.) WARNING: has been know to cause Munich Syndrome.
Oh and one of my personal quotes (originated for the door-to-door types"):
"My faith comes in Calibers."
My ACOG has the John verse 8:12 on it. Who would have known?
It amazes me that this is news to anyone on this site. It's been known for years that Trij puts bible verses on their optics. :confused:
I think I'm more concerned that this just suddenly made its way to ABC news after we started to discuss the topic. Makes me think M4C is being trolled by left-wing journalists looking for stories.
That might be worth a moderator's time doing an IP search for anything that correlates to ABC news.
I think I'm more concerned that this just suddenly made its way to ABC news after we started to discuss the topic. Makes me think M4C is being trolled by left-wing journalists looking for stories.
That might be worth a moderator's time doing an IP search for anything that correlates to ABC news.
And now that you've outed them, they're going to send around the MIB's. Go easy with the tinfoil...
Pretty sure the only hat I wear is made from Kevlar. Not sure if that blocks the alien mind control device signals. But other than that, I think its a valid point. The ABC report was definitely left wing and I'd felt like there was an extreme amount of bias against Trijicon.
Submariner
01-19-10, 07:32
This just makes me want to buy an acog.
You are in good company:
Me- i just ordered up an RCO.
With pleasure...
S/F
Pat sends
www.eagtactical.com
Another good one from LF:
If you are a radical Islamist who finds this sight offensive, stay out of the reticle and you should be fine.
ChicagoTex
01-19-10, 07:34
This news story broke with countless outlets about the same time. Moreover, as several folks have pointed out, Trijicon's been doing this for a long while.
I HIGHLY doubt anyone from ABC learned about this from this forum. To ASSUME that to be the case can only be described as full-on paranoid delusion.
Is there a minute chance? Yes, but there's also a minute chance that serial killers are using this site to gather information to make themselves better murderers - I don't see a lot of folks holding back on that possibility... why should this be any different?
This news story broke with countless outlets about the same time. Moreover, as several folks have pointed out, Trijicon's been doing this for a long while.
I HIGHLY doubt anyone from ABC learned about this from this forum. To ASSUME that to be the case can only be described as full-on paranoid delusion.
Is there a minute chance? Yes, but there's also a minute chance that serial killers are using this site to gather information to make themselves better murderers - I don't see a lot of folks holding back on that possibility... why should this be any different?
Wow, your claiming to diagnose my concern as being paranoid delusions? Are you qualified to diagnose a person as having a delusional disorder? Have I indicated a pattern of delusions occurring over a period of time? When did I start having this problem? Is the current manifestation severe and profound?
I do not think its paranoid in the least to think that any news organization may be trolling these boards for information or to find stories. I think its good OPSEC to assume that the information posted here could be used negatively by a wide variety of individuals and organizations.
ChicagoTex
01-19-10, 08:04
I do not think its paranoid in the least to think that any news organization may be trolling these boards for information or to find stories.
It's extremely illogical to draw that conclusion based on ONE news story
Is the current manifestation severe and profound?
It would seem to be so to me.
I think its good OPSEC to assume that the information posted here could be used negatively by a wide variety of individuals and organizations.
"Could" isn't what you said. "Could" is reasonable. However, you said:
Makes me think M4C is being trolled by left-wing journalists looking for stories.
Crucial verbiage obnoxiously highlighted by myself.
At a bare minimum, at least 50% or more of the US population is "Christian" enough to not give you crap for you calling yourself a Christian. That's hardly a "stigma".
If you need comfort from inanimate symbols, then there's a lot more pointless going on then some guys at Trijicon making biblical references.
Bull. Absolute, total bull and you know it.
In certain circles, this is absolutely true. I consider the "New Athiests" as much of a pain in the ass as the relentless Christian or any other faith zealots.
Of course it does, it's a well proven psychological phenomenon that criticism of something makes it seem more real to the person being criticized regardless of reality. Ask a rail thin anorexic if they think they're fat. Just because they reply yes, doesn't mean they actually are.
This, I absolutely agree with.
I've no intention of boycotting Trijicon because they take the time out of their day to put writing I don't give the slightest flying crap about on their optics. If they're good optics and the company treats me right - we've got no problem. That doesn't change the fact that I still perceive it as a waste of time, primarily because I suppose I figure reasonable people won't care whether they're Christians or not. Maybe I'm just underestimating the value of marketing to unreasonable people who need or want their faith validated on their MF'ing optics...
The quotes all reference bringing light to darkness. Trijicon has a right to do that. End of story. For someone who does not give a crap, you spend a lot of energy rebutting people point by point. So much for wasting time.
ForTehNguyen
01-19-10, 10:16
this whole thread is a huge lol
who cares? I'm atheist and this doesn't deter me from buying an ACOG.
decodeddiesel
01-19-10, 10:28
It amazes me that this is news to anyone on this site. It's been known for years that Trij puts bible verses on their optics. :confused:
This is what I was thinking. When I got my TA31F in the Army the first thing I did was check it for a verse marking...and found none. When I bought my TA33-8 I checked it and found it.
Really though, I guess it's just not a big deal to me.
ForTehNguyen
01-19-10, 10:49
my Crossbreed Supertuck holster has three crosses on it, IM GOING TO COMPLAIN!!!!! :rolleyes:
No really I just dont care
The thing is that there is a non-evangelical explanation for this as well. Trijicon is a company that pioneered low light gun sights. All the of the biblical versus they place on their products make reference to the "darkness" and how they shall prevail though the "darkness." This really is in line with their products despite any religious views they might have. If you are a Christian, perhaps the verse will comfort you. If you are an agnostic or atheist, then look at it as no more than a quote from a historic book on turning darkness into light - no different than a quote from Musashi.
I didn't read every post, but as a Christian I must say it is uplifting.
Like other's have stated, it's about faith, you either have it or you don't.
I pray for my enemies as much as my friends.
God Bless, Terry.;)
My wife and I saw this on FOX Morning while drinking morning coffee. I've been telling my wife I wanted an ACOG. After she saw that she was like we need one for all the rifles:). Now just trying out how to pay for them.
Dan
Preferred User
01-19-10, 14:27
Wow. ABC is really going after this:
Marine Corps Concerned About 'Jesus Guns,' Will Meet With Trijicon (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/secret-bible-verses-guns-marines-concerned/story?id=9602030)
Trijicon violates General Order Number 1:
U.S. Military Weapons Inscribed With Secret 'Jesus' Bible Codes (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/us-military-weapons-inscribed-secret-jesus-bible-codes/story?id=9575794)
Young earth Creationists, Geo centrists, and Flat earthers are the big ones that come to mind for me. There is a difference between looking at the bible and taking the good, important messages it has, and using it to deny reality.
Where be these Christian "flat-earthers" and "geo-centrists" you speak of?
Maybe this could be a new market niche for Trijicon: custom motivational "codes" for shooters of all creeds and denominations. Then you could carry what carries you, if you get my meaning. Everyone happy... everyone happy.
I want mine to say, "Don't fergit 'chyer judy chop!"
John_Wayne777
01-19-10, 14:53
my Crossbreed Supertuck holster has three crosses on it, IM GOING TO COMPLAIN!!!!! :rolleyes:
No really I just dont care
I think it's more analogous to this:
Someone sees that you have a cross on your holster and then holds that you are being provocative towards the potential car jackers, armed robbers, and perpetrators of violent assault by the use of such a holster.
This quote, by the way:
And the religious issue is BS, they aren't being shot with 'Jesus Rifles', they're being shot with freedom rifles whose rounds are being guided by Jesus optics. Like the same way their rounds are guided by Allah, only ours, you know, hit the target.
...is awesome.
Insah Trijicon.
I've been out of the military game for a while but I don't understand what all the talk of violating the first general order is :confused: Mine was:
1st General Order
"I will guard everything within the limits of my post and quit my post only when properly relieved."
Either way we look at it, this kind of stuff stirs the shit pot unnecessarily.
Like I've stated before, it is better to leave Bible verse in the Bible.
We are in a global community and the decision to put verse on scopes, which probably happened about 15 years ago as an "Eh, they wont mind" kind of decision, now actually does count a great deal.
Original intentions innocent or not, this decision needs to be re-evaluated by Trijicon in light the attention from the media in a post 9/11 era.
And no, taking the verse off the scopes wont mean we are cowards or whatever, it'll mean we can exercise better judgment in an evolving world (Better than they can, as they still use Islamic scripture to go to war and still decapitate people for Shariah Law violations, much like they did 500 years ago).
Confirmation of my argument for Mr. Lets tear me apart for being concerned... I concede M4C was not specifically referenced as a source, but why not get hung up in the word choice in this article rather than my paranoid and uneducated verbiage? Notice the word "discussions" is plural which would tend to indicate multiple sources.
Starting with page 2, paragraph 6
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/secret-bible-verses-guns-marines-concerned/story?id=9602030&page=2
"But ABC News was able to find repeated references to the Biblical citations in on-line discussions of the gun sights. In August 2009, a poster named "Latex Ducky" tells other posters on a forum for firearm enthusiasts called "The Firing Line" about the inscriptions. "Here's something interesting: There should be a reference to a Bible verse on the base of the scope."
Paragraph 7
Back in 2006, on a self-described "Armageddon Forum," a number of users discuss the Bible references. "Seems there's a different verse on each model," writes Mr45auto. "They chose some whoppers too!"
Should I use APA format to cite my sources as well? Maybe I should send my posts to a writing work shop before I hit submit reply. Or maybe, I can e-mail my old expository and technical writing professor to make sure all of my content has been reviewed.
Since there were two of you that dogpiled on me, it looks like my tinfoil hat pretty much ****ing worked today.
Kiss my ass or come find me in Iraq for further discussion.
Its also not fair to say that Trijicon violated General Order 1. They are not present in the AOR which is one of the key components of GO1.
http://www.tac.usace.army.mil/deploymentcenter/tac_docs/GO-1.pdf
I could not find the most recent update that went on a couple of days ago online at this time.
If they had a guy in theater that was busy inscribing ACOGs as they arrived, that would be a GO violation. However, I'm sure there are some aircraft armament specialists here who can comment on stuff that finds its way onto munitions...
Either way we look at it, this kind of stuff stirs the shit pot unnecessarily.
In your opinion.
Like I've stated before, it is better to leave Bible verse in the Bible.
Why exactly?
We are in a global community
The "global community" is a bunch of American hating socialist dildo stuffing marxist jackholes. Who gives a flying *#&$ what they think about anything?
and the decision to put verse on scopes, which probably happened about 15 years ago as an "Eh, they wont mind" kind of decision, now actually does count a great deal.
Only to the aforementioned American hating socialist dildo stuffing marxist jackholes.
Original intentions innocent or not, this decision needs to be re-evaluated by Trijicon in light the attention from the media in a post 9/11 era.
So that, what, they then won't crash civilian jetliners into cities? Good plan.
And no, taking the verse off the scopes wont mean we are cowards or whatever, Since "whatever" is an undefined term, you may be right, but you are as wrong as a person can be about the coward thing.
it'll mean we can exercise better judgment in an evolving world
Actually, you will find most honest and lettered social commentators, on both sides of the political spectrum, in agreement that the west has been de-evolving for some years now.
The "global community" is a bunch of American hating socialist dildo stuffing marxist jackholes. Who gives a flying *#&$ what they think about anything?
Not 95% of the population here.
Thankfully.
parishioner
01-19-10, 19:59
The use of the word "secret" in these news stories is pretty ridiculous to say the least.
It is in no way a secret since it is written right there on the damn sight for all to see.
Its not like you have to turn the knob on the sight three times, whisper the words "new england clam chowder", hold it in the sunlight only when when the clock strikes midday and POOF the verse magically appears in the reticle.
ABC sucks.
The use of the word "secret" in these news stories is pretty ridiculous to say the least.
It is in no way a secret since it is written right there on the damn sight for all to see.
Its not like you have to turn the knob on the sight three times, whisper the words "new england clam chowder", hold it in the sunlight only when when the clock strikes midday and POOF the verse magically appears in the reticle.
ABC sucks.
I guess if one has never read the Bible, those letters and numbers probably do seem like some strange secret symbols.
spitfire556
01-19-10, 20:33
Anyone see this, or hear of this before, and what is everyones take on it? A MUST SEE!!
http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/secret-jesus-bible-codes-on-u-s-military-weapons-17700769
gunnar4321
01-19-10, 21:01
Way to go Trijicon......You know, I remember when the Mujahideen were at war with the Soviets, you'd see photos of them and their weapons were decorated with so many religious trinkets, it was laughable. They yell "Allah Akbar" when they kill or blow themselves up. Can you honestly say this isn't a religious war?
Worst POS reporting hatchet job I've ever seen. It was 100% negative. Brian Ross and ABC disgust me. Our pussified PC military "leadership" will probably pull all the Trijicons and grind the marking off.
Everyone who hates seeing biased crap like this in the media should send comments to every ABC news department here: http://abcnews.go.com/Site/page?id=3068843
Then email everyone you know a link to the story and ask them to do the same. If you go to church, let your congregation know about the battle against christianity ABC supports with this story.
I think its a sad testament to our changing values. If Trijicon was making scopes in WW2 they would have been lauded and probably would have received presidential recognition.
I agree that there is almost no way the military isn't going to have them stop this practice for mil-issue. I bet the FRAGO for obscuring the verse is in the works and preparing for signature at this very moment.
Well, first thing is to pull all the Optics from patrols so not to offend any Freedom Fighters. Then send them all to a non subversive company like NCstar or CounterSniper for modification and upgrades, then if there is a new contract with Trijicon the Chevron will be replaced with either a Daisy- like image, or a peace sign.:D
I will be first in line for the surplus NON- Global Spec ACOG's.
[QUOTE=ryanm;546848]I think its a sad testament to our changing values. If Trijicon was making scopes in WW2 they would have been lauded and probably would have received presidential recognition. QUOTE]
You're probably right about that, segregation was real popular back then too. Damn shame our morals have devolved so much.
Anyone see this, or hear of this before, and what is everyones take on it? A MUST SEE!!
http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/secret-jesus-bible-codes-on-u-s-military-weapons-17700769
shit like this makes me want to jihad.
shit like this makes me want to give them what they claim to fear.
[QUOTE=ryanm;546848]I think its a sad testament to our changing values. If Trijicon was making scopes in WW2 they would have been lauded and probably would have received presidential recognition. QUOTE]
You're probably right about that, segregation was real popular back then too. Damn shame our morals have devolved so much.
Equating this to segregation seems pretty retarded.
[QUOTE=ryanm;546848]I think its a sad testament to our changing values. If Trijicon was making scopes in WW2 they would have been lauded and probably would have received presidential recognition. QUOTE]
You're probably right about that, segregation was real popular back then too. Damn shame our morals have devolved so much.
WHAT?!?! :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=ryanm;546848]I think its a sad testament to our changing values. If Trijicon was making scopes in WW2 they would have been lauded and probably would have received presidential recognition. QUOTE]
You're probably right about that, segregation was real popular back then too. Damn shame our morals have devolved so much.
Are you a teaching assistant?
deadduck357
01-20-10, 03:47
God Bless Trijicon, God Bless our Troops and God Bless the U.S.A.
&
F_ck the rest that disagree
The thing is that there is a non-evangelical explanation for this as well. Trijicon is a company that pioneered low light gun sights. All the of the biblical versus they place on their products make reference to the "darkness" and how they shall prevail though the "darkness." This really is in line with their products despite any religious views they might have. If you are a Christian, perhaps the verse will comfort you. If you are an agnostic or atheist, then look at it as no more than a quote from a historic book on turning darkness into light - no different than a quote from Musashi.
Good form! And good post. This I can agree with.
I really can't seem to post in this thread without being accused of being a depressive paranoid or a segregationist. F you whale, F you Dolphin!!!
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w308/mikethought/whalewhores3.jpg
We are in a global community
:rolleyes:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,583261,00.html
I really can't seem to post in this thread without being accused of being a depressive paranoid or a segregationist. F you whale, F you Dolphin!!!
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w308/mikethought/whalewhores3.jpg
One of the best south park episodes ever:D Wasn't calling you a segregationist, I was just trying to point out that not all changes in the collective morality since WW2 have been in a bad direction. I have no problem with the company being open about this and putting whatever they prefer on their product. I do find it inappropriate that it is on a product used by Americans of every faith who are proudly serving our nation. That’s my opinion.
God Bless Trijicon, God Bless our Troops and God Bless the U.S.A.
&
F_ck the rest that disagree
Great way to sum up the the problem with collectivism.
Submariner
01-20-10, 07:41
Where is the new "chart" created explaining which ACOGs have which reticle type; barrel length the BDC, if any, is calibrated for; whether it utilizes BAC; weight; and which Bible verse is inscribed upon it.
This will bring traffic to your site! :D
rifleman2000
01-20-10, 07:55
Either way we look at it, this kind of stuff stirs the shit pot unnecessarily.
Like I've stated before, it is better to leave Bible verse in the Bible.
We are in a global community and the decision to put verse on scopes, which probably happened about 15 years ago as an "Eh, they wont mind" kind of decision, now actually does count a great deal.
Original intentions innocent or not, this decision needs to be re-evaluated by Trijicon in light the attention from the media in a post 9/11 era.
And no, taking the verse off the scopes wont mean we are cowards or whatever, it'll mean we can exercise better judgment in an evolving world (Better than they can, as they still use Islamic scripture to go to war and still decapitate people for Shariah Law violations, much like they did 500 years ago).
You could be a CNN analyst.
Praise God and Pass the Ammunition.
If you're a Christian, you can take comfort from and appreciate the scripture. If you're not, you can still appreciate the witty sayings about light on your light enhancing optic taken from one of the greatest works of literature in the history of the world. I say there is something there for everyone if you look at it in the right light. (No pun intended.)
I love the idea! Maybe a Islamic jerk will not use the equipment that they capture from the good guys.
I December I saw a M-4 with an engraving on the right side of the magazine well in Arabic that said Infidel. Saying to everyone he is not an Islamic fool. :D
I love the idea! Maybe a Islamic jerk will not use the equipment that they capture from the good guys.
I December I saw a M-4 with an engraving on the right side of the magazine well in Arabic that said Infidel. Saying to everyone he is not an Islamic fool. :D
How about the islamic jerk that is serving in the US military?
If you're a Christian, you can take comfort from and appreciate the scripture. If you're not, you can still appreciate the witty sayings about light on your light enhancing optic taken from one of the greatest works of literature in the history of the world. I say there is something there for everyone if you look at it in the right light. (No pun intended.)
I may argue against the " greatest works of literature" opinion, but I like your positive outlook. It has no place on govt equipment though.
Where is the new "chart" created explaining which ACOGs have which reticle type; barrel length the BDC, if any, is calibrated for; whether it utilizes BAC; weight; and which Bible verse is inscribed upon it.
This will bring traffic to your site! :D
Great post, that damn M4 chart is what brought me over here from a BMW forum:D
It was a big help and this sight is one of the most informative that I have seen.
RogerinTPA
01-20-10, 15:09
Jan 19, 2010. http://www.military.com/news/article/jesus-scopes-in-line-of-fire.html?ESRC=eb.nl
Notwithstanding two administrations' avowals that American forces are not in Iraq or Afghanistan as part of some "Holy War," a manufacturer's penchant for putting New Testament references on rifle scopes is once again raising concerns about religious symbols finding their way into the U.S. military mission in those countries.
An Army spokesman told Military.com that senior officials are looking into the matter, but he was not able to say what might be done about it. Meanwhile, a spokesman for U.S. Central Command was quoted by The Associated Press as saying there is nothing wrong or illegal with the biblical inscriptions appearing on the Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight.
"This situation is not unlike the situation with U.S. currency," Maj. John Redfield is quoted as saying. "Are we going to stop using money because the bills have 'In God We Trust' on them? As long as the sights meet the combat needs of troops, they'll continue to be used."
Trijicon Corp. of Michigan, which makes the scopes, defends the inscriptions. One inscription, "JN 8:12," refers to "John chapter 8 verse 12." That Bible passage reads: "When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
In an email statement to Military.com, a spokesman said: "As part of our faith and our belief in service to our country, Trijicon has put scripture references on our products for more than two decades. As long as we have men and women in danger, we will continue to do everything we can to provide them with both state-of-the-art technology and the never-ending support and prayers of a grateful nation."
Army Lt. Col. Christopher Garver told Military.com that the Army was "not aware that those markings meant what they did at the time of the contract for the purchase of those scopes." Garver said the Army tracks scopes by a national stock number and a line number.
"So whatever the manufacturer's markings are, we don't track the scopes that way," he said.
The Army only learned of the biblical references last week, when contacted by ABC News, Garver said. ABC ran a report on the scopes last night on its "Nightline" news program.
Mikey Weinstein, who heads up the watchdog group Military Religious Freedom Foundation, called the inscriptions "horrible," particularly for the increased danger to American troops. Weinstein says the inscriptions also violate the general order against proselytizing issued by Army Gen. Tommy Franks in the opening days of the war in Afghanistan, as well as the U.S. Constitution (and the laws of Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan).
"As a practical matter I would have to ask, is there anything else our military can possible do to serve as a lubricant or accelerant for already-pissed-off-at-America young Islamic men and women in Morocco, Jordan, Syria, Egypt … who might want to come and join the cause, join the Taliban, al-Qaida?"
Weinstein provided Military.com with an email he said he received from a young enlisted Soldier – a Muslim American – who has had multiple deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan. According to the email, which Weinstein redacted to keep the Soldier anonymous, troops in the field are "worried that if they were captured in combat that the enemy would use the bible quotes against them in captivity or some other form of propaganda.
"As an American Soldier I am ashamed that those bible quotes are on our primary weapons," the email reads. "As a Muslim American I am horrified. As one who swore his oath to the Constitution, I am driven to fight this Christian insanity but I know if I try to do so in a visible way that I will suffer at the hands of my military superiors."
"Having had a son in the Marine Corps who fought in Afghanistan and Iraq I am deeply resentful of the stupidity of the manufacturers of a gun sight putting New Testament bible versus about Jesus Christ on that sight, thereby endangering the lives of our U.S. personnel worldwide," said Frank Schaeffer, Military.com columnist, author, and self-described one-time member of the "religious right."
Schaeffer said the scopes may spawn further terrorist attacks against the U.S. by lending credence to the belief that America "is on a crusade" in Muslim countries.
"They wrap themselves in the flag and talk about supplying the troops, but they've essentially booby-trapped the weapons they're selling" to the military, said Schaeffer, whose most recent book is "Patience with God: Faith for People Who Don't Like Religion (or Atheism)."
According to reports, the company currently has a $660 million contract to supply up to 800,000 of the scopes to military.
You can not trust the Islamist in the military now! Kuwait and Fort Hood!!!!
Schaeffer said the scopes may spawn further terrorist attacks against the U.S. by lending credence to the belief that America "is on a crusade" in Muslim countries.
i really don't think they're holding anything back. any attacks that don't occur don't occur because they're not possible, not because some sheikh asshole says, "no, not today, young mujahad."
you can't make them hate us more.. thats stupid.
Razorhunter
01-20-10, 15:56
Bible verse references have been on ACOGs for years guys. It's nothing new. I'm glad that Trijicon has the guts to do it, and show their faith, and what they stand for and believe in.
UNFORTUNATELY, I just saw this story hit CNN today. 5 minutes ago actually. I never watch lamo CNN news either. I just happened to flip the channel when I got home a few minutes ago, and I saw an M4 and ACOG pic on CNN, and the story was about all sorts of anti Christian groups complaining about the verses on the ACOGs our soldiers carry.
Guess they FORGOT this nation was founded on Christianity, and is the sole reason we have always been the most powerful nation in the world, and the most blessed nation in the world.
As we all know however, this will eventually come to an end as we get further and further from God and continue to strike him from every aspect of our lives and teachings. It's already begun.
Sad but true.
If this becomes an issue for Trijicon and their Mil contracts I HOPE Trijicon stands their ground and tells the U.S. Army and the government to either deal with it, or go find another optic.
+1 what Razorhunter just said. I beleive that God made this country great and hopefully we as a nation get back to our old christian beleifs before it is too late. Just my baptist opinion.
decodeddiesel
01-20-10, 16:08
Guess they FORGOT this nation was founded on Christianity, and is the sole reason we have always been the most powerful nation in the world, and the most blessed nation in the world.
As we all know however, this will eventually come to an end as we get further and further from God and continue to strike him from every aspect of our lives and teachings. It's already begun.
Sad but true.
This post if completely ****ing ridiculous.
It was the actions of fine men and women, Americans, who made this country great. Yes some of them may have been inspired by a higher power, some maybe not.
However saying the only reason why this country is what it is is solely because of god is the ****ing stupidest and most disrespectful and ignorant thing I have ever seen in my life.
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This post if completely ****ing ridiculous.
It was the actions of fine men and women, Americans, who made this country great. Yes some of them may have been inspired by a higher power, some maybe not.
However saying the only reason why this country is what it is is solely because of god is the ****ing stupidest and most disrespectful and ignorant thing I have ever seen in my life.
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+1, I didn't even have the stomach to respond to such foolishness. Bunch of idiots arguing over whose invisible friend is better than the other's.
This post if completely ****ing ridiculous.
It was the actions of fine men and women, Americans, who made this country great. Yes some of them may have been inspired by a higher power, some maybe not.
However saying the only reason why this country is what it is is solely because of god is the ****ing stupidest and most disrespectful and ignorant thing I have ever seen in my life.
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I agree! God's hand was definitly absent in a lot of the stuff we've done to make this country what it is. That's why it's been sliding for the last 50yrs. With the media and mass communication we can't get away with the shit we used to pull.
on that note,, **** yeah I like the scripture on these scopes and am thinking about contcting them to see if I buy one with Psalm 23:4, John 3:16 on them.
This entire shitstorm has been brewed up by a couple of lone malcontents and ABC jumped on the bandwagon at full throttle. ABC, Weinstein and Schaeffer aren't worthy to lick the sweat off Trijicon employee's balls. That they have the audacity to claim some moral superiority and whine about some "safety" issue for our troops is nuts.
If anything, they're gift wrapping another PR tool for the radical Islamists to rally around. At best they're stupid. At worst they're traitors. :mad:
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