View Full Version : S&W M&P and Trijicon RMR
When the new Trijicon RMR's came out, I immediately thought of mounting one to a pistol. Their small size and weight seemed like sure winner. Couple that with the fact they make one with out any electronics in it and you have a very reliable optic.
For whatever reason, Trijicon does not make a dedicated mount for the RMR and pistols. So I rigged one together from various mounts I had for their short lived "Red Dot" optic.
I chose the RM03 (which is the model with no electronics and a 13MOA dot). The reason I picked the larger dot is because I wanted to be able to find it quickly and at 25yds, the dot size is only 3.25MOA.
After mounting the RMR to the M&P, I began to wonder if I had any holster that would fit it. Luckily the Raven holster I had worked just fine.
The mounting situation is not ideal to me and believe that it sits too high, but is serviceable. If this concept works out well for me, I will have mounts made for it that allow it to sit flush on the slide.
Due to the weather here in Ohio, I haven't gotten a lot of trigger time with it, but what I have done I have liked. It moves well from target to target, is fast and accurate. My draw stroke is fairly similar to my normal one and imagine that it would be the same if the optic sat lower.
Wash out. I attached a SF X300 to it and put myself in a room about the size of a large bathroom. With the X300's light bouncing off the walls, I found the dot kind of hard to pick up. I imagine that if I was in a larger room, it would be better. IMHO, Crimson Laser Grips are must have (for no other reason than the reticle washing out in certain situations).
I will be running this pistol at an upcoming class down at BW and will report back on how it runs.
C4
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SW/MP_RMR03.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SW/MP_RMR03a.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SW/MP_RMR03b.jpg
CaptainDooley
01-17-10, 18:15
A couple of questions
If it has no electronics, does it just amplify/focus ambient light to make the dot?
Is this something you're putting together as a possible carry piece, or range/class use?
Outlander Systems
01-17-10, 19:01
Cap'n: It uses fibre optics to reroute ambient light, as well as tritium.
Grant: Is it a lower 1/25th cowitness? ;)
Seriously, cool setup. I'd imagine this should work well with any non-retention strap bearing holster...
This is giving me some ideas...
CaptainDooley
01-17-10, 19:03
Tritium is good news - how's it's low-light/dark capabilities then?
Outlander Systems
01-17-10, 19:29
Pretty good info on this little monster:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34780&page=3
Grant, what bible verse is on yours?
wicked_police
01-17-10, 19:50
In spite of some of the recent threads regarding a red dot optic on a handgun, I want to give one a try for fun and general plinking on the range.
I have a couple of Glock 34's, and one will be my test mule. :)
I was going to go with the Aimpoint Micro as I have a couple without homes right now, and will hopefully get a Glock mount for it soon.
But, I really like the size of the RMR....
If there ends up being a way to mount it lower without having to mill the slide, I really want to give one of these a try too.
And if it doesn't work out on the Glock, I have other SBR's and long guns it can go on. :D
Cruncher Block
01-17-10, 20:08
Does it interfere with slide manipulation at all? I'm especially wondering about clearing malfunctions.
I'm guessing it probably makes that whole "snag the sight and rack it one-handed on your belt" thing a little different. :)
A couple of questions
If it has no electronics, does it just amplify/focus ambient light to make the dot?
Is this something you're putting together as a possible carry piece, or range/class use?
For more info on them: http://www.trijicon.com/user/parts/parts_new.cfm?categoryID=13
It acts just like an ACOG or ACCUPOINT does (same concept). So yes, gathers ambient light to power the dot and if there is none, the Tritium kicks in.
I put this together to prove if it works. I believe that the best way to do this type of thing is to run it in a training class.
C4
Tritium is good news - how's it's low-light/dark capabilities then?
Great in the dark. As I stated, washout appears to be an issue if you are in a small room and have a bright light attached to the weapon (this is where the CT grips come into play).
C4
Pretty good info on this little monster:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34780&page=3
Grant, what bible verse is on yours?
God is Great, Beer is good and people are crazy. :D
Just kidding. It says 1th5:5: Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness
C4
In spite of some of the recent threads regarding a red dot optic on a handgun, I want to give one a try for fun and general plinking on the range.
I have a couple of Glock 34's, and one will be my test mule. :)
I was going to go with the Aimpoint Micro as I have a couple without homes right now, and will hopefully get a Glock mount for it soon.
But, I really like the size of the RMR....
If there ends up being a way to mount it lower without having to mill the slide, I really want to give one of these a try too.
And if it doesn't work out on the Glock, I have other SBR's and long guns it can go on. :D
I believe that certain Tier 1 groups are running these and Micro Aimpoints on combat pistols as we speak. Talking with Vickers, he believes that is the way things are going to go. The problem has always been though the ruggedness of the optic. I think the Micro and RMR fix this issue.
C4
Does it interfere with slide manipulation at all? I'm especially wondering about clearing malfunctions.
I'm guessing it probably makes that whole "snag the sight and rack it one-handed on your belt" thing a little different. :)
I messed with clearing a malfunction and really didn't have any issues. I grab over the top of the optic and pinch down on the serrations on the slide.
C4
wicked_police
01-17-10, 20:36
I believe that certain Tier 1 groups are running these and Micro Aimpoints on combat pistols as we speak. Talking with Vickers, he believes that is the way things are going to go. The problem has always been though the ruggedness of the optic. I think the Micro and RMR fix this issue.
C4
Great to hear, thanks Grant!
I couldn't find the RMR on your site, what's the price for the different models?
Jay Cunningham
01-17-10, 22:14
The problem has always been though the ruggedness of the optic. I think the Micro and RMR fix this issue.
IMO the real problem is the ability to consistently track the dot while shooting at speed. I will be interested in hearing your opinion.
Great to hear, thanks Grant!
I couldn't find the RMR on your site, what's the price for the different models?
They typically run $300-$400 + range.
C4
IMO the real problem is the ability to consistently track the dot while shooting at speed. I will be interested in hearing your opinion.
Yes. From my initial experience it is pretty fast.
C4
lethal dose
01-17-10, 23:33
grant. what's up? i've been looking into alternatives to the aimpoint and eotech lineup... i dono... just wanting something different. does this sight wash out as badly as the reflex ii? i've read good things about the rmr, but want to make sure shooting out of shade into light, shooting from cover, etc. that i won't lose the reticle.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-18-10, 02:35
Great in the dark. As I stated, washout appears to be an issue if you are in a small room and have a bright light attached to the weapon (this is where the CT grips come into play).
C4
Oh my, an RMR, CT grips, and an X300......
IMO the real problem is the ability to consistently track the dot while shooting at speed. I will be interested in hearing your opinion.
Someone posted some pics of a doctor type sight on a glock (?) and they showed how much (little) the gun had to tilt to lose the dot. Don't know if you could show the range of gun postions that you can still see the dot from.
Really interested in this. Everything else has red dots on them, why not your handgun? I wonder how much you can mill out of an M&P slide, and do some handguns let you mill out more than others? Could you drill some holes from the bottom of the slide and get rid of all that mount height?
God is Great, Beer is good and people are crazy. :D
Just kidding. It says 1th5:5: Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness
C4
That would make a great song! ;)
Mike
grant. what's up? i've been looking into alternatives to the aimpoint and eotech lineup... i dono... just wanting something different. does this sight wash out as badly as the reflex ii? i've read good things about the rmr, but want to make sure shooting out of shade into light, shooting from cover, etc. that i won't lose the reticle.
The RMR does a much better job with washout than other Trijicon products I think.
If I was going to mount one of these on a rifle, I would go with the electronic version.
C4
Oh my, an RMR, CT grips, and an X300......
Someone posted some pics of a doctor type sight on a glock (?) and they showed how much (little) the gun had to tilt to lose the dot. Don't know if you could show the range of gun postions that you can still see the dot from.
Really interested in this. Everything else has red dots on them, why not your handgun? I wonder how much you can mill out of an M&P slide, and do some handguns let you mill out more than others? Could you drill some holes from the bottom of the slide and get rid of all that mount height?
If I like this setup, I will lower profile mounts made and mill out the slide.
C4
The RMR does a much better job with washout than other Trijicon products I think.
If I was going to mount one of these on a rifle, I would go with the electronic version.
Does the LED version not have the washout issues? Is it "Aimpoint bright"?
Does the LED version not have the washout issues? Is it "Aimpoint bright"?
Correct.
C4
Your dot is still 13-ish MOA no matter what the distance. A 3.25 MOA dot at 25 would only cover roughly an inch of target. No matter, I would be fine with a dot that big on a pistol. I have a 9MOA RMR and I really like it, it's riding on a shotgun right now. I am willing to sacrifice some brightness for not needing batteries.
I have experimented with various sizes and the 7MOA worked out best for me on a handgun. The 3.5 Insight MRDS (I think it's the best of it's kind) was too small for me to pick up consistently. If I dedicate a gun to a red-dot it will be the MRDS in 7 MOA.
I am puzzled as to why anyone would make a sight of this nature and not have it fit Docter-pattern mounts. It seems your market would be that much bigger with all the mounts and optics already on the market. If people could retrofit existing mounts with new sights (Elcan Specter, Trijicon ECOS, Larue's Irondots) I bet they'd sell more of these.
yugo308guy
01-18-10, 11:52
Grant, I've been very interested in this concept ever since I saw the set up on the FN 45, but I am curious as to your thinkng. Is the idea of this RDS along with CT grips simply for redundancy? Why else would you want to couple these 2 things.
Your dot is still 13-ish MOA no matter what the distance. A 3.25 MOA dot at 25 would only cover roughly an inch of target. No matter, I would be fine with a dot that big on a pistol. I have a 9MOA RMR and I really like it, it's riding on a shotgun right now. I am willing to sacrifice some brightness for not needing batteries.
I have experimented with various sizes and the 7MOA worked out best for me on a handgun. The 3.5 Insight MRDS (I think it's the best of it's kind) was too small for me to pick up consistently. If I dedicate a gun to a red-dot it will be the MRDS in 7 MOA.
I am puzzled as to why anyone would make a sight of this nature and not have it fit Docter-pattern mounts. It seems your market would be that much bigger with all the mounts and optics already on the market. If people could retrofit existing mounts with new sights (Elcan Specter, Trijicon ECOS, Larue's Irondots) I bet they'd sell more of these.
How is the LED version doing on your SG?? That is a true test for an optics durability.
I originally thought that a 13MOA might be too big. After talking with some friends about what competition shooters run, I think it will work well.
C4
Grant, I've been very interested in this concept ever since I saw the set up on the FN 45, but I am curious as to your thinkng. Is the idea of this RDS along with CT grips simply for redundancy? Why else would you want to couple these 2 things.
When using a none battery powered optic, there can always be a reticle washout issue. The CT laser grips are a good idea IMHO when using this type of optic.
In the event that the dot fails, you could also point shoot.
I do a lot of CQD/low light shooting so I might be more concerned about it than others.
C4
I haven't really fired it much to be honest, maybe 50 rounds of 00 buck. So far, so good.
These are pictures off of David Bowie's site detailing the cut in the slide that is made for a J-Point. Surely not the same for an RMR but similar. The lower the better I would suppose. http://www.bowietacticalconcepts.com/mandpprices.html
http://www.bowietacticalconcepts.com/sitebuilder/images/M_P_mill-309x275.jpg
http://www.bowietacticalconcepts.com/sitebuilder/images/M_P_J-Point-480x339.jpg
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-18-10, 21:33
Grant,
Can you post some pics from the back of the gun showing how the dot works and what happens when the gun tilts up and down?
Thanks!
thanks Grant,
that's good info
while we are on the subject, the T1 has held up fine to lots of shooting through my 44 mag... since this pic was taken I took the mount to a buddy and he machined away all the rail slots forward of the T1 so it's a nice, super clean mount
not trying to hijack the thread just reporting that the T1 will hold up to a 44 and I have seen cheaper ones fail
it's counted for a few hog kills and can consistently hit a 12" diamter steel plate at 100 yards off hand
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/7307/250tmh.jpg
me and my son last September hunting with Bill Wilson
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/2633/dscf2631u.jpg
Grant,
Can you post some pics from the back of the gun showing how the dot works and what happens when the gun tilts up and down?
Thanks!
I tried, but was just too hard to to make it look right.
S&W showed some new pistol mounts for the RMR at Shot. So they will be available soon!
C4
Brother Rat
02-05-10, 15:44
Grant:
I am looking at doing this as well... do you have any idea when the mounts are slated to be released? Also, what did you have to do to make the mount you had on hand work?
Thanks,
Dan
Grant:
I am looking at doing this as well... do you have any idea when the mounts are slated to be released? Also, what did you have to do to make the mount you had on hand work?
Thanks,
Dan
2-3 months on the mounts.
I have more of the mounts like I am using, but you have to use a spacer to get the holes on the RMR to line up.
C4
I ran this gun at a class down at Blackwater. I had only two slight issues with it. While doing a moving and shooting drill, I lost the dot. I attribute this to me not controlling muzzle flip. The other issue was the dot size when trying to shoot NRA 25yd slow fire targets. It is very hard to shoot the X ring out with a 13MOA dot. ;)
Now if you are not concerned with shooting X rings and do most of your shooting at 6-8" circles under 25yds, then I would say that the 13MOA dot size will work.
I am going to give the 9MOA dot size a chance next and see if that works for me a little better.
C4
Brother Rat
02-13-10, 08:00
I have more of the mounts like I am using, but you have to use a spacer to get the holes on the RMR to line up.
C4
Re: the base mount(sans spacer), is it sized for a J-Point or a Docter/Fastfire? If it's the latter, I'll call dibs on one right now...
Re: the base mount(sans spacer), is it sized for a J-Point or a Docter/Fastfire? If it's the latter, I'll call dibs on one right now...
The base is sized for the Trijicon red dot (which is the same as the Docter I believe).
C4
Brother Rat
02-13-10, 08:52
I just spent the last half-hour trying to figure this out for myself from crappy internet pictures and it looks like, to me, that the Trijicon Reddot is actually a JPoint pattern sight. I don't have either in my hands, but the mounting hardware appears to be in a slightly more central position longitudinally on the Docter mounts than those for the JPoint/Reddot. So, looks like the search continues...
For what it's worth, I have an Insight MRDS (which requires a Docter mount) coming to me for a project similar to yours Grant, and I will mount it on my M&P or die trying:p. Pics will be posted.
VooDoo6Actual
02-13-10, 10:39
Nicely setup.
I run similar only RMR batt. pwred model on Ruger MK ll w/ can.
Very fast, light etc.
Outstanding.
I ran this gun at a class down at Blackwater. I had only two slight issues with it. While doing a moving and shooting drill, I lost the dot. I attribute this to me not controlling muzzle flip. The other issue was the dot size when trying to shoot NRA 25yd slow fire targets. It is very hard to shoot the X ring out with a 13MOA dot. ;)
Now if you are not concerned with shooting X rings and do most of your shooting at 6-8" circles under 25yds, then I would say that the 13MOA dot size will work.
I am going to give the 9MOA dot size a chance next and see if that works for me a little better.
C4
So, Grant, let me understand it better: during the entire class, there was only one instance where you were unable to track the dot in recoil, and you think it was a correctable shooter error of letting the gun run away from you at that particular moment?
Grant: I noticed that Trijicon also makes the RMR (non battery) in a 7 moa as well as the 9 moa and 13 moa.
As far as optic base compatibility goes the Trijicon MRD & Jpoint are the same. Docter, Burris FF & Insight MRD are the same. Trijicon RMR is not compatible with any other base unless a spacer/adapter is used.
If MRD's and RMR's work out for you, then you should consider having your slide milled as it makes a big difference in sight picture acquisition (much closer to center bore height).
JMHO,
MadDog
ETA: Here is my Trijicon setup after trial and error. Grant, I hope you don't mind a couple pictures.
http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/9206/mp9mm005.jpg
http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/7287/mp9mm013.jpg
Grant: I noticed that Trijicon also makes the RMR (non battery) in a 7 moa as well as the 9 moa and 13 moa.
As far as optic base compatibility goes the Trijicon MRD & Jpoint are the same. Docter, Burris FF & Insight MRD are the same. Trijicon RMR is not compatible with any other base unless a spacer/adapter is used.
If MRD's and RMR's work out for you, then you should consider having your slide milled as it makes a big difference in sight picture acquisition (much closer to center bore height).
JMHO,
MadDog
ETA: Here is my Trijicon setup after trial and error. Grant, I hope you don't mind a couple pictures.
http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/9206/mp9mm005.jpg
http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/7287/mp9mm013.jpg
Right you are. I looked at the 7MOA RMR at show and saw a tail on it. Now I am not sure if that was because of the crappy lighting or the fact that it was an early model. I will order some and see how they look.
C4
Pic of the gun in action.
C4
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Hackathorn%20M4C%20Class%202010/TD1/g-01-001.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Hackathorn%20M4C%20Class%202010/TD1/g-01-01.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Vickers%20Hackathorn%20M4C%20Class%202010/TD1/g-01-00001.jpg
Al U. 5811
02-18-10, 12:08
Grant,
Specs on your M&P set-up please.(in case they have not been posted already). I'm trying to get my wife to step up to a .45 but my 21SF is still to big for her hands. The M&P is the option I am looking at.
I'm still in suppressor unfriendly state but my work partner and I have some plans in the works to possibly go a different route.
thanks.
John_Wayne777
02-18-10, 12:16
I'm going to have to try this setup. When my PT.com edition guns finally arrive and I've had the chance to prove one of them reliable enough to be my carry gun, I'll turn my current 9mm M&P into a test bed, hopefully...and this is something I'm hoping to test. I played with Grant's gun a little bit at the recent mod/staff class, and it seemed to work better than some of the other RDS on pistol slide options I've seen.
Grant,
Specs on your M&P set-up please.(in case they have not been posted already). I'm trying to get my wife to step up to a .45 but my 21SF is still to big for her hands. The M&P is the option I am looking at.
I'm still in suppressor unfriendly state but my work partner and I have some plans in the works to possibly go a different route.
thanks.
Setup:
S&W M&P 9mm SKU 309301
Heinie Front Sight
APEX SEAR
Trijicon RMR (Dual Illuminated)
Trijicon "rigged" mount
Storm Lake Threaded Barrel
CT Grips
SpringCo Recoil Reducing Guide Rod
C4
I'm going to have to try this setup. When my PT.com edition guns finally arrive and I've had the chance to prove one of them reliable enough to be my carry gun, I'll turn my current 9mm M&P into a test bed, hopefully...and this is something I'm hoping to test. I played with Grant's gun a little bit at the recent mod/staff class, and it seemed to work better than some of the other RDS on pistol slide options I've seen.
When I get my new 7MOA RMR, I will send you the one on my gun so you can play with it to see if you like it or not.
C4
John_Wayne777
02-18-10, 12:30
When I get my new 7MOA RMR, I will send you the one on my gun so you can play with it to see if you like it or not.
C4
Best offer I've had all day.
bnanaphone
02-18-10, 13:59
How easy are the RMR sights to zero? I have a Burris Fastfire (I know it's a different design) and it was a bit of a guessing game, even with the little screwdriver/dial tools. I have yet to replace the battery on it but I hear you may need to re-zero after that too.
From the pictures, it looks like it has elevation and windage adjustments that will be easy to use. Since they require no batteries, that eliminates the need to ever remove the sight.
Thanks
How easy are the RMR sights to zero? I have a Burris Fastfire (I know it's a different design) and it was a bit of a guessing game, even with the little screwdriver/dial tools. I have yet to replace the battery on it but I hear you may need to re-zero after that too.
From the pictures, it looks like it has elevation and windage adjustments that will be easy to use. Since they require no batteries, that eliminates the need to ever remove the sight.
Thanks
VERY EASY. They actually have a "click" when you rotate the elevation/windage dials. The Burris, JPOINT and DR are all a "guessing game" when zeroing.
C4
bnanaphone
02-18-10, 14:18
Thanks Grant, that helps.
Doug
I'm going to have to try this setup. When my PT.com edition guns finally arrive and I've had the chance to prove one of them reliable enough to be my carry gun, I'll turn my current 9mm M&P into a test bed, hopefully...and this is something I'm hoping to test. I played with Grant's gun a little bit at the recent mod/staff class, and it seemed to work better than some of the other RDS on pistol slide options I've seen.
I'm a bit surprised to hear this. How did it compare to Byron's Glock from Todd's class last summer?
John_Wayne777
02-18-10, 20:40
I'm a bit surprised to hear this. How did it compare to Byron's Glock from Todd's class last summer?
For one thing, the moment I brought the gun up to eye-level I saw the dot. I had to hunt for Byron's dot. I moved the weapon around quite a bit and I didn't lose the dot as easily as on Byron's gun.
Some seriously high speed people use red dots similar to this on handguns for serious social purposes. I've seen some of the drawbacks to RDS sights personally (like on Byron's gun) but if those sort of guys are using these sort of sights there has to be something to it.
I really want to give it a good faith effort to see what the arrangement does and doesn't do in my hands, and hopefully see what those guys see in them. I know about the downsides of this sort of arrangement, at least in theory with limited trigger time. I just want to see if the costs are outweighed by the benefits in my situation.
For one thing, the moment I brought the gun up to eye-level I saw the dot. I had to hunt for Byron's dot. I moved the weapon around quite a bit and I didn't lose the dot as easily as on Byron's gun.
Some seriously high speed people use red dots similar to this on handguns for serious social purposes. I've seen some of the drawbacks to RDS sights personally (like on Byron's gun) but if those sort of guys are using these sort of sights there has to be something to it.
I really want to give it a good faith effort to see what the arrangement does and doesn't do in my hands, and hopefully see what those guys see in them. I know about the downsides of this sort of arrangement, at least in theory with limited trigger time. I just want to see if the costs are outweighed by the benefits in my situation.
I think we are going to see more Tier 1 units running either an Aimpoint Micro or some sort of ruggedized reflex sight on their pistol. Mr. Vickers said more than a year ago that he thought that a dot sight mounted on a pistol was the way to go (if they were rugged enough).
My biggest concern with these sights and handguns is that I just didn't think they would survive and were too bulky to be carried on the weapon (in a CCW format). With the development of these new ruggedized optics, my concerns are gone (especially with the Trijicon RMR's that have NO electronics in them). They have almost no weight and can be used with many, common holsters (like the Raven seen in the pic). I can also conceal it easily.
C4
Gabe Suarez
02-27-10, 19:25
http://www.onesourcetactical.com/images/products/detail/RMRGLOCKSIGHTPIC2.1.jpg
Nice write up. I have been working with the RMR (battery powered) in 8 MOA. I had a local smith mill a dovetail into the slide and give me a very low mounted unit.
I have been carrying it appendix IWB now for almost a month and it is no harder to carry than anything else. I have about 1500 rounds through it now without any issues at all. I can shoot so much better with this that I have made it my EDC pistol.
I have had students use it in class and the concensus is that it is stupid simple. No more aligning sights. Just look at the target - put the red do on it, and let 'er rip. We had one man easily hitting 100 yard steel with it. Toward the end of the day...about 1800 HRS in fading light, we had one man hit a 187 yard steel.
This system makes shooting so simple, it feel like you are cheating. I agree with the notion that this is the wave of the future for handgun sights. Regardless of the advantages, there will be plenty of folks that will try to find some reason to dislike the concept.
But those that take the step, it will revolutionize the way they shoot.
Al U. 5811
02-27-10, 21:12
I have to admit this is getting my interest. It seems we are getting more Professionals on board with this concept. It might be a possibility for a future addition of skillset. Thanks.
I have to admit this is getting my interest. It seems we are getting more Professionals on board with this concept. It might be a possibility for a future addition of skillset. Thanks.
As these micro RDS evolve and become more and more reliable, I think it IS the future for combat pistol's. We are already seeing forward thinking from companies like FN that are machining out slots in their slides for RDS. I expect we will see more and more as time goes by.
C4
Does anybody know if a Classic Sig could be milled out like the FN is? I really like that setup on the FN the best of what I've seen so far. 2nd would be Bowie's M&P. I do think serious firearms should have fixed sights for back up.
for years a lot of us have done it for various reason
here is some i found out
shooters with heavy prescriptions in there glasses or very very bad eyesight or aging eyes it makes it very easy for them to use and acquire the dot
also on bed stand guns no need to put the glasses on if they need them or if they loose there glasses in the fight or are damaged
it makes it very easy for left or right handed only manipulations
I'm looking to do this same thing with a Trijicon RMR on an M&P, specifically because of aging eyes. Too hard to get good sight alignment without my reading glasses on, and I don't wear them all the time.
I'm resurrecting this threat because there was mention earlier on about specific Smith & Wesson mounts for the RMR being shown at the SHOT show - is there any update on that? I'd like to keep the optic as low as possible, right now it appears that unless I want to try to find a 'smith that knows how to do that, I'm forced to stack up items to mount an RMR:
Trijicon MS29 "RedDot" mount for S&W M&P
Trijicon RM43 "adapter plate" to allow an RMR to mount to a "RedDot" mount.
Is that correct? Any other recommendations (or suggestions on a good gunsmith that could take just my slide and get it ready for an RMR)?
I'm looking to do this same thing with a Trijicon RMR on an M&P, specifically because of aging eyes. Too hard to get good sight alignment without my reading glasses on, and I don't wear them all the time.
I'm resurrecting this threat because there was mention earlier on about specific Smith & Wesson mounts for the RMR being shown at the SHOT show - is there any update on that? I'd like to keep the optic as low as possible, right now it appears that unless I want to try to find a 'smith that knows how to do that, I'm forced to stack up items to mount an RMR:
Trijicon MS29 "RedDot" mount for S&W M&P
Trijicon RM43 "adapter plate" to allow an RMR to mount to a "RedDot" mount.
Is that correct? Any other recommendations (or suggestions on a good gunsmith that could take just my slide and get it ready for an RMR)?
They are not out yet. The adapter plate setup is what I run, but you don't want it as it is too high.
C4
They are not out yet. The adapter plate setup is what I run, but you don't want it as it is too high.
C4
Any rumors on when it will be out, or recommendations on a gunsmith that can mill a slide for one?
I might go with the adapter plate setup just to give this all a try and see how I like a reddot on a handgun.
Any rumors on when it will be out, or recommendations on a gunsmith that can mill a slide for one?
I might go with the adapter plate setup just to give this all a try and see how I like a reddot on a handgun.
Should be very soon.
There is a gunsmith that I am going to send my slide too and see how it goes.
C4
Nighthawk1
04-21-10, 14:23
Bowie tactical will mill the slide on an M&P for a RMR or a jpoint either one.
I just got back my M&P from the machine shop. They did an excellent job (very clean).
They also machined in an alignment point on the back of the RMR. This gives you an alignment point, which is good enough for putting rounds on a target 15yds and in I think (will experimate with this more and see how far I can push it).
Final configuration:
M&P 9mm FS
Sprinco Recoil Management System
Storm Lake Threaded Barrel
CT Laser Grips
Apex Tactical Striker Block and Hard Sear
Trijicon RMR 7MOA Dual Illumination
C4
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Grant's%20weapons/MP_9mm_RMR.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Grant's%20weapons/MP_9mm_RMR1.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Grant's%20weapons/MP_9mm_RMR2.jpg
NCPatrolAR
05-18-10, 11:45
I just got back my M&P from the machine shop. They did an excellent job (very clean).
They also machined in an alignment point on the back of the RMR. This gives you an alignment point, which is good enough for putting rounds on a target 15yds and in I think (will experimate with this more and see how far I can push it).
Final configuration:
M&P 9mm FS
Sprinco Recoil Management System
Storm Lake Threaded Barrel
CT Laser Grips
Apex Tactical Striker Block and Hard Sear
Trijicon RMR 7MOA Dual Illumination
C4
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Grant's%20weapons/MP_9mm_RMR.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Grant's%20weapons/MP_9mm_RMR1.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Grant's%20weapons/MP_9mm_RMR2.jpg
Looks good Grant. Let us know how it runs.
1911sforever
05-18-10, 11:59
I'm in the delivery window of my slide from Bowie Tactical. I'm really looking forward to trying this set up out during the Virginia Tactical course.
Looks good Grant. Let us know how it runs.
I an already tell that the lower sight aids in natural POA. This will make it faster on target than my previous config.
C4
John_Wayne777
05-18-10, 12:39
Cool beans.
I just got back my M&P from the machine shop. They did an excellent job (very clean).
They also machined in an alignment point on the back of the RMR. This gives you an alignment point, which is good enough for putting rounds on a target 15yds and in I think (will experimate with this more and see how far I can push it).
Final configuration:
M&P 9mm FS
Sprinco Recoil Management System
Storm Lake Threaded Barrel
CT Laser Grips
Apex Tactical Striker Block and Hard Sear
Trijicon RMR 7MOA Dual Illumination
C4
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Grant's%20weapons/MP_9mm_RMR.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Grant's%20weapons/MP_9mm_RMR1.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Grant's%20weapons/MP_9mm_RMR2.jpg
Ooh....very nice! I want one :-)
WANT!!!
Grant, did you send this to your machine shop or another? How long was the turn around? Can you convince The Warden that the kids can go a week with out eating?
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-18-10, 13:53
Is that as deep as it will go into the slide? Love to see some pics from the rear with the dot, and the slide before the sight was mounted. Really sweet.
I really like the index line. Simple, rugged and there if you need it- but it doesn't look distracting. I might go with a straight black front blade just to further reduce the visual clutter. Be very interested in what you think.
WANT!!!
Grant, did you send this to your machine shop or another? How long was the turn around? Can you convince The Warden that the kids can go a week with out eating?
We used a machine shop in MI that was recommended to us by a member here.
Turn around was about 7 days.
We are looking into have it done locally though.
C4
Is that as deep as it will go into the slide? Love to see some pics from the rear with the dot, and the slide before the sight was mounted. Really sweet.
I really like the index line. Simple, rugged and there if you need it- but it doesn't look distracting. I might go with a straight black front blade just to further reduce the visual clutter. Be very interested in what you think.
It is as deep as you can go I think.
I like this setup a lot (especially coupled with the CT laser grips).
I also went ahead and had the machine shop do up another M&P slide so that I could match it up with an LED RMR (4MOA), Apex Tactical package and offer it for sale to anyone that didn't want to wait. ;)
Pics of the one that is for sale below.
C4
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SW/MP_9mm_RMR.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SW/MP_9mm_RMR1.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SW/MP_9mm_RMR2.jpg
FPembleton
05-18-10, 16:00
I usually wrap my support hand around the rear of my slide to rack it. Have you guys with the RMRs changed the way you manipulate your handgun?
I usually wrap my support hand around the rear of my slide to rack it. Have you guys with the RMRs changed the way you manipulate your handgun?
No and if anything, the RMR aids in clearing of malfunctions and such. I simply hit the front of the RMR with my hand and drive the slide reward.
I have also worked on coming over the top and grabbing down ontop of the RMR. This works as well.
C4
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-18-10, 19:32
It is as deep as you can go I think.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SW/MP_9mm_RMR1.jpg
By that front edge, I guess you don't need to put it that much lower. The rear made it look like it sat higher.
Be interesting to see this pic with the camera focused near infinity, which is where I assume you focus would be with this optic in a fight. The Red Dot seems too transparent and fuzzy.
By that front edge, I guess you don't need to put it that much lower. The rear made it look like it sat higher.
Be interesting to see this pic with the camera focused near infinity, which is where I assume you focus would be with this optic in a fight. The Red Dot seems too transparent and fuzzy.
You can barely see the front sight so you would be seeing just the dot (which is a dark, clear circle).
C4
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-18-10, 21:05
You can barely see the front sight so you would be seeing just the dot (which is a dark, clear circle).
C4
Thanks Grant.
Thanks Grant.
You are welcome.
C4
lethal dose
05-19-10, 08:59
I hear washout isn't bad. How about when coupled with a weapon or other defensive light in a dark room?
I hear washout isn't bad. How about when coupled with a weapon or other defensive light in a dark room?
In order for washout to happen, you would need to be in a dark room looking into another room (that is extremely bright) or looking outside for it to happen.
In a small room (that is painted white) with a high power light (like an X300), you can lose the dot.
This is why I recommend a set of CT Laser Grips OR a back up irons. My gun has three sighting systems on it and I find that I will use the CT laser grips in low light/shoot house environments as they are even faster than the dot (as your head is up).
C4
bnanaphone
05-19-10, 09:32
Looks great Grant. I just sent my slide and RM05 off to Bowie Tactical for their machining and RMR treatment. Very excited to get the final product back.
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-19-10, 12:48
Does the dual illumination or the battery version have more propensity to wash out in those conditions?
Does the dual illumination or the battery version have more propensity to wash out in those conditions?
The LED is going to fight it better that the Dual illumination does. The down side to the LED one is that it is about $100 more than the other model and has electronics in it.
For me personally, the washout concern really isn't there (as a civy). Meaning that I can basically take a defensive shot in two situations (my home) and outside. I really cannot think of a circumstance where will be in my totally dark home shooting outside (where it is full sun). YMMV
C4
Grant makes a good point - in almost every context where using a pistol is called for, these are rare issues. Washing out with a bright tactical light would be my biggest concern - I guess the CT grips are 'the' solution.
What about something similar to the Bowie JPoint setups where the MiniRDS has a notch that can be used as a rear iron sight - how plausible is this for the RMR?
In any case, the moment Trijicon rolls out with a red or green dual illuminated model (7MOA or 9MOA), I'll be getting my second M&P from Grant, just like this, for this purpose.
Grant makes a good point - in almost every context where using a pistol is called for, these are rare issues. Washing out with a bright tactical light would be my biggest concern - I guess the CT grips are 'the' solution.
What about something similar to the Bowie JPoint setups where the MiniRDS has a notch that can be used as a rear iron sight - how plausible is this for the RMR?
In any case, the moment Trijicon rolls out with a red or green dual illuminated model (7MOA or 9MOA), I'll be getting my second M&P from Grant, just like this, for this purpose.
If you look at the pics I posted, there is a line machined on the back of the RMR. This serves as an alignment point with the front sight. Shot it tonight and was hitting the target at over 15yds just fine.
Don't know if Trijicon is going to make them in a red dot version or not, but to be honest, you eye pics up the amber faster so I really don't see a need for a red version.
C4
FromMyColdDeadHand
05-19-10, 21:39
Grant makes a good point - in almost every context where using a pistol is called for, these are rare issues. Washing out with a bright tactical light would be my biggest concern - I guess the CT grips are 'the' solution.
Or an X400 ($460) plus $560 for an LED RMR. How much is the gun? :p
Al U. 5811
05-19-10, 23:16
So, what's the price of the one you have in the shop?
Grant,
Did you have Bowie mill the slide on the M&P? He is the only one that I have seen that does the vertical alignment on the back of the RMR.
Also, what made you go with the dual illuminated RMR vs the LED?
Thanks.
O
I'd like to know who did the slide milling for you (since I'm in Michigan, perhaps I can avoid shipping).
Did you have any refinishing done, or did you just leave the milled portion the bare stainless?
Grant,
Did you have Bowie mill the slide on the M&P? He is the only one that I have seen that does the vertical alignment on the back of the RMR.
Also, what made you go with the dual illuminated RMR vs the LED?
Thanks.
O
No on DB doing it.
I chose the dual illuminated based off these facts:
1. Cost
2. Durability
3. 7MOA Dot Size
C4
I'd like to know who did the slide milling for you (since I'm in Michigan, perhaps I can avoid shipping).
Did you have any refinishing done, or did you just leave the milled portion the bare stainless?
Left it SS as it is, well SS and is covered by the RMR.
C4
His name is Doug he is located in Taylor mi
Ill post his info tomorrow. He has done some great work on my guns
He is Doug at American Tool and Engraving.
20224 Lorne
Taylor, MI 48180
Shop: 313-388-8228
He's done a lot of work on my guns as well. I'll post picks of my Glock when I'm done stippling it...have a few others to work through first. He did FULL slide serrations, both top and sides, on the Glock. Going to have him do up my M&P as well.
Don Robison
05-25-10, 21:43
If you look at the pics I posted, there is a line machined on the back of the RMR. This serves as an alignment point with the front sight. Shot it tonight and was hitting the target at over 15yds just fine.
Don't know if Trijicon is going to make them in a red dot version or not, but to be honest, you eye pics up the amber faster so I really don't see a need for a red version.
C4
Streichers is advertising a 7.0 moa red dual illumination. I was going to go with a 8.0 moa led for my G21 until I saw it. Now, I'm considering the red dual. Like you I don't see washout being an issue given my use. I'm going to give them a call to make sure it's not a misprint.
http://www.policehq.com/Products/TRJ-RM04
FromMyColdDeadHand
06-01-10, 18:38
Streichers is advertising a 7.0 moa red dual illumination. I was going to go with a 8.0 moa led for my G21 until I saw it. Now, I'm considering the red dual. Like you I don't see washout being an issue given my use. I'm going to give them a call to make sure it's not a misprint.
http://www.policehq.com/Products/TRJ-RM04
What did you find out? Their code "TRJ-RM04" seems unique?
I read on another forum that there was a write up or a newsletter article in RDS sights for handguns on the Suarez International website, but I don't see it. Is there a link to the article?
Streichers is advertising a 7.0 moa red dual illumination. I was going to go with a 8.0 moa led for my G21 until I saw it. Now, I'm considering the red dual. Like you I don't see washout being an issue given my use. I'm going to give them a call to make sure it's not a misprint.
http://www.policehq.com/Products/TRJ-RM04
Any update on this? Is it indeed a dual iillumination red dot?
Don Robison
06-12-10, 20:34
Any update on this? Is it indeed a dual iillumination red dot?
Sorry, I got tied up and didn't call, but I sent them an email last night. I'll post as soon as they reply.
Don Robison
06-12-10, 20:37
What did you find out? Their code "TRJ-RM04" seems unique?
I read on another forum that there was a write up or a newsletter article in RDS sights for handguns on the Suarez International website, but I don't see it. Is there a link to the article?
I didn't see this until now. I believe these are the articles you're talking about.
http://www.warriortalknews.com/2010/04/red-dot-sights-on-pistols-why.html
http://www.warriortalknews.com/2010/04/the-first-tsd-glocks-arrive-at-one-source.html
Any update on this? Is it indeed a dual iillumination red dot?
I checked, that's a mislabeled Amber Dual Illum unit. No sign of a dual illuminated red... yet.
I will still probably go with a pair of LED units.
I checked, that's a mislabeled Amber Dual Illum unit. No sign of a dual illuminated red... yet.
I will still probably go with a pair of LED units.
Thanks for the info. I hate to pester a company with the same question over and over.
David Bowie (http://www.bowietacticalconcepts.com) has released his new RDS/iron sight set-up for handguns. It is absolutely superb!
Here is one on an M&P45:
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7048&filename=RMR%20BUIS%202%20forum.jpg
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7049&filename=RMR%20BUIS%203%20forum.jpg
Don Robison
07-02-10, 15:59
I checked, that's a mislabeled Amber Dual Illum unit. No sign of a dual illuminated red... yet.
I will still probably go with a pair of LED units.
I would go with this answer as well.
They never emailed me; so I called them yesterday; the guy I talked to said it was red; then he read me the catalog and said the 9 and 13 were amber. He didn't seem to understand that I was asking if red was a misprint and didn't seem to want to go any further than reading to me what I had already read to him. He seemed perplexed when I said "no shit, I can read".
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-04-10, 15:03
David Bowie (http://www.bowietacticalconcepts.com) has released his new RDS/iron sight set-up for handguns. It is absolutely superb!
Here is one on an M&P45:
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7049&filename=RMR%20BUIS%203%20forum.jpg
To me, I think you need to go with a black front sight, not a dot. That is just getting to cluttered. I was jerked around by some sellers of RMRs, so I don't have one yet. But I think I'll beta test on the rail on my Tac-sol STI 22 conversion kit. Try to do some 'Big Ghost ring" shooting to see how accurate that would be. Just wish Surefire would come out with a single CR123 cell light and laser combo. If your RMR and laser goes down, maybe it just isn't your day.
Would the front lense surface of the RMR take a sheet of protective film like they use on cell phone and camera LCD screens. Just put a protective film that has the lower 1/8 have a notch for a faux front sight?
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-12-10, 21:24
What is the deepest you can relieve a slide to mount an RMR sight? I have a slide with a Novak rear cut for an STI ATS sight. The bottom of the dovetail seems lower than where the bottom of the RMR is?
Just put a protective film that has the lower 1/8 have a notch for a faux front sight?
THIS ! We just need a sticker in a shape of an rear sight to stick on the RMR sight ! You should patent that idea.
OR I like how Bowie tactical does it with a "WHITE STICK" on RMR sight and express front sight.
kennjen
Actually that sticker idea at first didnt sound bad. Its interesting to actually watch the development and innovation of this as it appears to me that RDS will soon be on most all pistols in the near future.
The lens could be etched with a rear sight outline as well to eliminate the issues with a decal. The RDS could be designed with an actual machined sighting surface either in front or behind the lens as well.
Numerous options exsist and Im sure will be marketed.
The big problem in my opion with doing anything to the lens or actual sight might be if there is total sight failure or a broken lens.
Best plan seems to be a totally seperate rear sight like David Bowie and others are doing.
FromMyColdDeadHand
07-13-10, 15:03
It is a race to figure out if the unit itself is reliable enough and then between add-on lasers and back-up sights. I think a single cell 123 laser would go a long ways towards adding capability to the gun when you can't see the sight, and if the sight breaks.
how about a second BIS on the side of the slide ? Just trying to think out of the box...
LOL ...Finding a holster will really suck... Until the idea really catches on and all the holster makers make hosters like that.
Please call it a "KEN" sight system if that ever happens. thanx.:jester:
how about a second BIS on the side of the slide ? Just trying to think out of the box...
LOL ...Finding a holster will really suck... Until the idea really catches on and all the holster makers make hosters like that.
Please call it a "KEN" sight system if that ever happens. thanx.:jester:
Finally, homeboy sights get their just rewards!!!!! :)
We used a machine shop in MI that was recommended to us by a member here.
Turn around was about 7 days.
We are looking into have it done locally though.
C4
Grant, any developments in offering this service thru your shop? Idea on costs?
Grant, any developments in offering this service thru your shop? Idea on costs?
We really are not in the business of doing this work (no time). We can however give you good prices on M&P's and RMR's.
C4
John_Wayne777
08-30-10, 09:15
When I get my new 7MOA RMR, I will send you the one on my gun so you can play with it to see if you like it or not.
*JW777 waits patiently* :D
We really are not in the business of doing this work (no time). We can however give you good prices on M&P's and RMR's.
C4
Already got 2 M&P45's from you...I'll take a 7MOA RMR dual when you get them in stock. Also, can you PM me the name of the shop you'd recommend for the Slide milling work and slide refinishing?
Thanks!
For those of you planning on running the RMR on duty weapons, I strongly suggest you consider the 8 MOA LED RMR to prevent dot wash-out that can occur with the 7 MOA self-illuminated version in some lighting conditions.
Larry Vickers Glock 17 w/Trijicon RMR. All work was done by Bowie Tactical.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/LAVG17REDDOT.jpg
I wonder if I could get that done to my old Sig P220 (1989)...?
As I age my eyesight is more of a hindrance. Glasses for reading, glasses for the computer, glasses for shooting... it's pain in the ass.
Bowie Tactical
01-15-11, 17:03
Guys be carefull when getting your slides milled for the Deltapoint. I have already been sent two slides to look at where the Machinist did not understand what needed to be done special for the Deltapoint. I was just sent a picture link to another company that just copied the rear BUIS I use on the Deltapoint and it does not work. The rear sight I use is special made for the job. The sight is milled to deep and no way to access the set screws in the back of the sight. You don't have to use me I realize but make sure your shop has the experience and know how to do it right. Not many do.
David Bowie
Bowie tactical
Mr Bowie, I was just looking at the pictures of the installation of the Delta point on the M&P's with the BUIS behind the optic on your website. Based on your last post I assume that the Delta points can be adjusted in this configuration without to much hassle. I'm really liking that set up.
Bowie Tactical
01-16-11, 15:05
Mr Bowie, I was just looking at the pictures of the installation of the Delta point on the M&P's with the BUIS behind the optic on your website. Based on your last post I assume that the Delta points can be adjusted in this configuration without to much hassle. I'm really liking that set up.
Yes without any hassle. I have the deltapoint properly milled in depth and the rear sight on my site is a prototype I designed that will soon be in production. It allows rear BUIS with deltapoint on the Glock, M&P without any trouble. If your at SHOT it will be on display on a Glock slide at the AmeriGlo booth and on a M&P along with a full custom I built for Smith& Wesson that will be on display at their L.E. booth with two slides. One with front BUIS and one with rear BUIS.
What i have been seeing alot are people rushing to copy what i have been doing for many years with these RDS systems. Many are missing some of the fine points that only time will let you understand. This goes to the work end as well as the training and user end.
David Bowie
Bowie Tactical
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