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View Full Version : AAR: Vickers Tactical Handgun, Los Angeles 16-17 Jan 2010



wrs3d
01-18-10, 12:08
Larry Vickers came to the Los Angeles-OC-Inland Empire region of Southern California to teach his Tactical Level I Handgun Course on 16 and 17 January 2010. The course was offered through Grey Group Training.

The course took place at the Prado Olympic Shooting Park, an expansive outdoor range facility in Chino Hills. The class size was robust, at about 20 students. Chen and Buck served as class AIs and safety officers. The experience level of the students ranged from those who had been shooting for less than a year, to more experienced shooters (many of whom had LE or military backgrounds). The class used a wide variety of semi-auto handguns. The most common were Glocks (with the most common model being the 19). M1911s were also abundant. Mixed in were the occasional XD, H&K, S&W M&P, and even a CZ. Calibers included 9mm, .40, and .45.


Overview of training on Day 1:

Larry Vickers: “I’m not here to give you what you want, I’m here to give you what you need. And I know what you need.”

What was needed was much training on trigger control. Vickers (henceforth “LAV”) spot-corrected stance and grip problems among the students, but the instruction and drills all focused on accuracy, with especially strong emphasis on mastering trigger control. In drill after drill he pounded away at trigger control problems among the students. The pay-off from this training is extraordinarily high in terms of improving accuracy, consistency, and arming the student with the knowledge required for self-diagnosis and correction.

LAV: “you can have a bad stance, bad grip, and a bad sight picture, but still hit the target if you break a good, clean shot. You can have a perfect stance, perfect grip, and perfect sight picture, but still miss the target if you jerk the trigger.”

The morning began with a safety briefing. Special emphasis was not only on keeping finger off the trigger unless firing, but specifically keeping it in the register position, against the side of the slide and angled upward. There was heavy emphasis on muzzle awareness as well. LAV noted that too many people simply don’t pay attention to where the muzzle is pointed when cleaning the weapon or showing it, resulting in bad range habits.

The first drill was dry fire in pairs using an empty shell casing on the front sight to refine trigger control and identify any problems. The shell casing has to remain balanced on the front sight throughout the trigger pull. Larry stressed that in any drill where the shooter jerked a shot, they should immediately dry fire five times for remediation. It was absolutely necessary to return to the baseline scenario of pressing the trigger without knocking the shell casing off the front sight in order to reinforce good trigger control.

LAV demonstrated how sight alignment mattered much less to accuracy than trigger control, by intentionally shooting the target with a misaligned sight picture in four directions. The resulting group remained tight. The reason was that, despite the intentional misalignment, good trigger control kept the shots together.

The next drill was slow fire ball & dummy, where the shooter is unaware of whether there is an actual round in the chamber or not. Their partner sets up the gun on either an empty chamber or a live round. This was a superb drill for revealing trigger control issues. Immediate remedial dry fire X 5, in response to any trigger jerk, was critical for improvement.

Command fire ball & dummy followed next. The partner set up the gun. Then from the low ready, shooters brought the gun up on target, aligned the sights, and pressed the trigger. Not knowing whether there was a live round in the chamber caused many to jerk the trigger. Five x dry fire was frequent.

Timed fire ball & dummy. With the gun on target, the shooter had to break the shot during a 3/10th of a second timer beep. Under a little stress from the clock, trigger jerk that had been vanquished quickly reappeared.

Together, these drills put the spotlight on trigger control problems, and how to fix them. Simply superb.


LAV: “I’m happy to see that this class is like all others, adhering to the universal standard of running your guns as dry as a bone. Put some lube on your gun!”

Trigger reset drill: LAV taught the class that the trigger needed to be released out to its reset point while the slide of the gun was cycling. This was in contrast to two other approaches commonly taught. One was releasing the trigger all the way. This is a technique used frequently by competition shooters that has no place outside of competition. The other is to keep the trigger pressed until the weapon has finished cycling. This is frequently taught in LE, but is too slow. Breaking a second or later shot in a timely way depends on releasing the trigger to its reset point during the cycle.

Proper reset was practiced in pairs. The shooter would align the sights and press the trigger on an empty chamber. The partner would put one hand behind the shooter’s strong-side shoulder for support, while cycling the weapon with their other hand. The shooter had to release the trigger to the reset point during the cycle, then put the gun on target and press the trigger again. The drill involved cycling through multiple times in quick succession.

One-shot, two-shot, and three shot drills: These brought together trigger control and trigger reset. The standard for accuracy is very high in LAV courses. Target silhouettes are bulls-eye holders. In all scored drills, a shot in the black counted zero points, a shot out of the black but still on the paper target counted one point, a shot off the paper and on the cardboard silhouette counted three points, and a shot off the silhouette altogether counted five points. The goal was as low of a score as possible. On all of these the shooter had to follow-through, scan for threats, and assess, including looking behind them.

From the low ready position, the time standard was five seconds. Over the weekend these drills were shot at distances from 3 to 5 yards, 7 to 10, and 10 to 15 yards.

LAV: “At this point in many courses you’d already be doing commando stuff, simply because that’s what’s on the agenda. Here we will continue to focus on identifying the target, aligning the sights, and squeezing the trigger. Are you starting to get the big picture yet? Trigger control.”

Firing from the draw came next. LAV discouraged drawing from the holster “by the numbers” in a series of discrete steps, as some students had learned. It should be a smooth movement. The shooter should move full speed to the holster, half speed at the holster, and then full speed from the holster. When the shooting hand moves to the holster the support hand should come over to meet the shooting hand as it comes out of the holster. Extend the weapon with both hands, pause to acquire the sight picture, then press the trigger break a good clean shot. For those with drop-leg rigs, the draw is the same, except that at the holster they should index the finger tips on the back strap of the pistol’s grip before pushing the retention hood forward with the thumb.

The drill that followed involved firing one shot from the draw, with follow-through, scan, and assess, from various distances.

The notorious walk-back drills began next. These involved shooting on the timer, putting the rounds in the black of the bulls-eye. Shots out of the black resulted in elimination. Thanks to AI Chen the class had the luxury of also doing the walk-backs on steel hanging targets. Here a miss could be made up with a hit shooting only from the strong hand. Team competition was worked into the drills as well.

LAV: Once effective trigger control is established using dry fire, trigger control is best practiced with live fire. However, dry-fire is very helpful in maintaining good trigger control while working on mechanics, such as firing from the draw, firing after magazine changes, and firing after turning.


Overview of training on Day 2:

The day began with a safety briefing, moving directly into dry fire using the empty shell casing on the front sight to refine trigger control and identify any problems. LAV stressed that the immediate five X dry fire in response to trigger jerk was absolutely necessary to return to the baseline scenario of pressing the trigger without knocking the shell casing off the front sight.

The next drill was ball & dummy, which LAV pointed out should be re-named dummy & ball, since the goal is to work in one live shot for each three or four dry fires. Remedial dry fire in response to any trigger jerk again was critical for improvement.

The class then worked through drills on command fire ball & dummy, timed fire ball and dummy, and timed fire from the holster.

An individual walk-back drill worked in weak hand, strong hand shooting. Five rounds at five yards in the black using the weak hand. Five rounds at ten yards in the black using strong hand. Five rounds at 15 yards in the black using both hands.

The class then shot steel plates, both as individuals and in timed team competition. Individuals did walk-back shoots, with LAV and Buck hitting steel from 50 yards, and a number of students doing nearly as well.


Magazine changes were the next topic. LAV: “I’ve seen some funky stuff out here, I don’t know where you were taught it, or if it is just a bad habit, but some of these magazine changes are ate up.” LAV teaches two magazine changes: a tactical reload when you want to top up, and an emergency or slide-lock reload, when the weapon runs dry in a fight.

1. For the tactical reload, the shooter brings the pistol into the working space in front of their chin, with finger off the trigger and maintaining good muzzle awareness. The support hand moves down to the ammo pouch, but not directly to the magazine. Instead, the top edge of the hand turns inward, and in a sweeping motion connects with the front edge of the magazine carrier. This puts the hand in the proper position to pull out the magazine with the index finger on the front face of the magazine. The shooter then brings the replacement magazine up, releases the magazine in the weapon, and swaps out the magazines.

2. The slide lock reload: the weapon runs dry. Shooter brings the pistol into the working space in front of their chin, with finger off the trigger and maintaining good muzzle awareness. The shooter loosens their grip on the pistol rotating it slightly in their hand so they can hit the magazine release with their thumb. (M&P shooters release the mag with their trigger finger; Glock shooters should have the Vickers extended mag release installed on their pistol). The support hand simultaneously moves down to the ammo pouch, but not directly to the magazine. Instead, the top edge of the hand turns inward, and in a sweeping downward motion connects with the front edge of the magazine pouch. This puts the hand in the proper position to pull out the magazine with the index finger on the front face of the magazine. The shooter then brings the replacement magazine up, and momentarily glances at the magazine well to insert the magazine. Bringing eyes back up on target, the shooter seats the magazine, and with the support-hand thumb releases the slide. Extend, align sights, and press the trigger for clean shot.

Depending on the pistol, the slide can be released with the “slingshot” technique. If you are shooting a SIG left handed, you have to use the slingshot. This is not effective with an M9 Beretta. One can do it with a Glock. But in most cases LAV sees the slingshot as a waste. Upon seating the magazine, the support-hand thumb is only a fraction of an inch from the slide release. It takes virtually no effort to go ahead and release the slide with the thumb. This is especially true for M1911s.

LAV: “As my friend Hackathorn says, if you are doing an emergency reload in a fight, you’ve got a problem.”

The afternoon session began with malfunction drills. LAV boiled reality down to two drills. The first is the “tap, rack, and bang.” Upon encountering a failure to fire the shooter puts the finger in the register position, Keeps a firm grip with the shooting hand, and uses the palm of the support hand to firmly hit the bottom of the magazine to insure that it is seated. Then the support hand comes over the top of the pistol to grab the slide, ensuring that it does not obstruct the ejection port. Upon pulling the slide all the way to the rear the shooter releases it, being careful to not ride the slide forward. The shooter then places the gun back on target, and presses the trigger.

The second drill is the “rip drill.” It begins just like a “tap, rack, and bang,” except that the is no bang, requiring additional action by the shooter to place the weapon back into operation. The rip drill involves several steps, which students did first by the numbers, then at their own pace, and then with their eyes closed except when firing.

1. Take the finger off the trigger.
2. Maintaining a firm grip with a shooting hand, the palm of the support hand firmly hits the bottom of the magazine to insure that it is seated.
3. The support hand comes over the top of the pistol to grab the slide, ensuring that it does not obstruct the ejection port.
4. Pull the slide al the way to the rear, and then release it. Do not ride the slide forward.
5. Place the gun back on target, and press the trigger.
6. If the gun again does not fire, again take the finger off the trigger, and bring the gun in to the working space in front of the shooters face at about chin level
7. With the support hand lock the slide to the rear. This takes all of the tension off of the malfunction, making it easier to resolve.
8. Turn the pistol slightly within the shooting hand, just as if initiating a magazine change.
9. Press the magazine release while using the support hand to grasp the bottom of the magazine, ripping it out of the weapon, in a down-and-away motion, dropping it on the ground.
10. While the support hand brings a new magazine out of the pouch the shooter shakes the pistol, and then with the thumb of the shooting hand releases the slide.
11. Upon inserting and seating the new magazine, the support hand pulls and releases the slide (do not ride slide forward).
12. Extend the gun back on target and press the trigger.

LAV pointed out that these two drills will fix most real-world problems that don’t involve a broken gun. Any problem not resolved by the rip drill generally requires tools. He also noted that there is no reason to rack the slide three or more times, as sometimes taught. Doing so is a waste.


Shooting on the move: LAV stressed that shooting on the move is an essential skill, since a real-world gun fight will not involve shooting with the feet planted. Shooting on the move is a task that should be practiced every time you go to the range. For shooters limited to indoor ranges, shooting on the move can be practiced at home with dummy rounds and a visible laser. LAV articulated his 50% rule: that in a real world gun fight, the loss in accuracy for a well trained shooter is 50%. Therefore, in training the groups of shots on the target should fit within the span of the shooter’s hand. This is the accuracy standard for shooting on the move at 15 yards or less.

The key to shooting on the move is to minimize the vibration above the shooter’s beltline. The goal is to create the sensation of the gun floating smoothly in front of the shooter while the legs absorb the shock with the ground while moving. This is done by walking using a heel-to-toe roll (when going forward), or a toe-to-heel roll (when going backward). The feet move almost in line. The most important aspect is that the knees and quads have to take up the shock, like a torsion suspension. Also, the bend in the elbows must be increased to offset some of the bounce not absorbed below the waist. When the gun is aligned on target, and the wobble zone is reduced, press the trigger to break a clean shot.

Some instructors teach to shoot at a particular point in the step or stride. This is not realistic. It is the threat that determines when the shooter fires, not the stride.

The class then practiced shooting on the move going forward, and coming back. LAV stressed that you need to be able to shoot on the move in any direction.

A sobering “Figure 8” drill wrapped up the shoot on the move portion of the course.


The final drill on day 2 was a team competition of strong-hand shots to the head.

Winners of team drills and firearms questions were rewarded with prizes. Larry generously brought a number of his Glock extended mag catches for shooters who did not yet have one.


Some other highlights from the course:

Weapons: beyond the challenges posed by operator headspace and timing, the Glocks in the class were among the most resistant to any mechanical difficulties. On the last drill of the second day there was an especially interesting failure to cycle by a Glock 22 with a white light attached. Anecdotal evidence pointed to this malfunction showing up as growing problem, for reasons not yet fully revealed.

Overall, M1911s were the most likely to present a mechanical issue. LAV stressed that it is for good reason that Glocks are “the universal pistol.”

LAV: “I’ve forgotten more about the M1911 than most shooters ever learn. People need to grasp that the M1911 was simply not the right gun for most shooters in real situations. I’ve got one word: Glock.”

Glock sights: LAV pointed out that the plastic things that came from the Glock factory in the slots on top of the gun were not sights, but rather are slot holders to be discarded and replaced.

LAV: “Get some real sights for your Glock”.

AI Buck added that “friends don’t let friends run a Glock with the factory plastic sights.”

Round count: The total round count for the two days was around 650 rounds, slightly more for those who stayed in the walk-back drills longer, and slightly less for those who eliminated themselves earlier.

Students who had not previously trained with Vickers, and expected to blast away at silhouettes all weekend, might have been surprised by the round count. But LAV noted that the maximum amount of ammo that could be effectively fired in a day of training was about 250-300 rounds, as a rough rule of thumb (For 2-gun courses, like carbine-pistol, it is 200 rounds per weapon per day). Shooting more than that was of limited help, and shooting more than 500 rounds per day was actually counterproductive.

LAV: “Any instructor who has you shoot more than 500 rounds in a day should give you a refund.”


Summary: it was a genuine treat to have Larry Vickers come to So. Cal. to offer a handgun course. Demand is high, and the course was full. The training is excellent, geared toward improving accuracy and performance in a way that works in real-world situations. I hope that he comes back to L.A. to offer another handgun course soon.

dookie1481
01-18-10, 12:16
Is this Bill?

I have to add that my M&P suffered no stoppages along with the Glocks :D

I believe the XDs were having problems also.

Jay

NCPatrolAR
01-18-10, 12:20
Nice AAR

Mark71
01-18-10, 12:30
Thanks for the detailed AAR. One of my goals for this year is to take a Vickers course.

m1match
01-18-10, 12:31
Bill,

I'll get pictures to you today or tomorrow. Larry did say that 1911s had more issues and require more knowledge to run than Glocks, but Bill is biased to the Glock:D. He didn't mention that the malfunctions in the 1911s in the class all happened to one pistol, at least that's what I remember. There were many 1911 shooters like me that had no issues:). I shot a 1911 till lunch the 2nd day and then switched to a G19 to finish the class because I wanted to run both. I also had the stock plastic sights that caused Larry to bring that issue up, but as I told Buck, this G19 is one of my spare G19s that only sees range use. Having said that, I'm going to replace them as soon as I have a chance.;)

Ted

wrs3d
01-18-10, 12:37
Is this Bill?

I have to add that my M&P suffered no stoppages along with the Glocks :D

I believe the XDs were having problems also.

Jay


Yes sir, it's Bill, aka "Octo."

Thank you for pointing that out on the XDs, you are correct. I sort of take it as given that the XDs instrinsically run with problems..... :)

LOKNLOD
01-18-10, 12:42
Thanks for taking the time to write that up...very interesting AAR.

dookie1481
01-18-10, 12:53
Yes sir, it's Bill, aka "Octo."

Thank you for pointing that out on the XDs, you are correct. I sort of take it as given that the XDs instrinsically run with problems..... :)

I figured only a professor could be that verbose :p

Seriously, it was nice meeting you.

Jay

m1match
01-18-10, 13:16
Bill,

To add information to your post, I asked Buck and Larry about that Glock 22 malfunction that Robert had. They said that what's happening, and what has been proven by high speed camera studies, is the Glock 22, 23, and 27 slides are too light. They were 9mm actions that were adapted to .40 S&W and the slides are too light leading to high slide velocities. When fired without a light attached, the frames are flexing so much that the frame rails are causing contact friction with the slide which slows the slide down and it works. When you attach a light, the light attached to the frame rail stiffens the frame up enough so that friction from frame flexing isn't there and the slides have excessive velocity leading to failures to feed. Buck said LAPD's experience was that some Glocks worked with lights, some didn't, and you can't predict which ones will work and which ones won't, so the answer for their department is don't run them with lights. The exception to this is they said is the Glock 35, which was designed around the .40 cartridge and will run well with and without a light.

TOrrock
01-18-10, 13:33
Excellent AAR, and looking forward to the pics.

John_Wayne777
01-18-10, 13:55
Great AAR...it really captures the essence of a Vickers pistol class.

Mr. Vickers is, in my mind, one of the premier pistol instructors on the planet. One of his pistol classes will change the way you shoot forever.

wrs3d
01-18-10, 15:06
Excellent AAR, and looking forward to the pics.

Some quick shots taken with iphone. Others had real cameras and will be able to provide more and better pics.

Trigger Control

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/Los%20Angeles%2016-17%20Jan%202010/VickersTriggerControl.jpg

LAV with AIs Buck and Chen

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/Los%20Angeles%2016-17%20Jan%202010/LAVwithAIs-1.jpg

Adjusting Grip

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/Los%20Angeles%2016-17%20Jan%202010/Correctinggrip.jpg

Ball & Dummy Drill

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/Los%20Angeles%2016-17%20Jan%202010/Ballanddummydrill.jpg

Slide lock reload

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/Los%20Angeles%2016-17%20Jan%202010/Vickersreload-2.jpg

Timed Fire

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/Los%20Angeles%2016-17%20Jan%202010/Commandfire.jpg

Team on the Timer

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/Los%20Angeles%2016-17%20Jan%202010/Onthetimer.jpg

Firing Line

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/Los%20Angeles%2016-17%20Jan%202010/Onthefiringline.jpg

On the Move

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/Los%20Angeles%2016-17%20Jan%202010/Move.jpg

LAV Reacting to a Problematic Team......

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/Los%20Angeles%2016-17%20Jan%202010/Frustratingteam-1.jpg

SMGLee
01-18-10, 15:50
Bill,

To add information to your post, I asked Buck and Larry about that Glock 22 malfunction that Robert had. They said that what's happening, and what has been proven by high speed camera studies, is the Glock 22, 23, and 27 slides are too light. They were 9mm actions that were adapted to .40 S&W and the slides are too light leading to high slide velocities. When fired without a light attached, the frames are flexing so much that the frame rails are causing contact friction with the slide which slows the slide down and it works. When you attach a light, the light attached to the frame rail stiffens the frame up enough so that friction from frame flexing isn't there and the slides have excessive velocity leading to failures to feed. Buck said LAPD's experience was that some Glocks worked with lights, some didn't, and you can't predict which ones will work and which ones won't, so the answer for their department is don't run them with lights. The exception to this is they said is the Glock 35, which was designed around the .40 cartridge and will run well with and without a light.

Actually the G35 is just a extended G22, with the same internals, but the added weight of the longer slide made the gun more suitable for the higher power of the 40SW. I had a trigger pin crack and break in my G35 awhile back, although G35 is a great gun, i am still not as comfortable with it as I am with the SW M&P40 which was initially designed as a 40SW instead of Glock moving the 9mm, to the 40SW.

Wayne Dobbs
01-18-10, 15:54
Dr. Bill,

Great AAR, brother! Glad to see you're still hanging in there on the training journey.

Wayne

VA_Dinger
01-18-10, 17:51
Vickers Tactical / Grey Group Training is very proud that the class went so well. Larry was very pleased with the students. Great group of guys and very eager to learn.

Special thanks to Buck, Chen, and Sarah for helping to make this class a success.

Thanks guys.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/vickers-tactical-logo.jpg

www.vickerstactical.com

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/logo.jpg

Grey Group Training:
www.greygrouptraining.com

Please come back and train with us again at our 2nd California class scheduled for this year;

TigerSwan 2-Day Tactical Carbine Course - Los Angeles, CA - April 17-18, 2010

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=39036

esskay
01-18-10, 19:00
I'll get pictures to you today or tomorrow.

Got M1Match's pics and am posting some up here:

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/767846619_w5jR6-M.jpg

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/767846526_mkmvJ-M.jpg

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/767846593_qfpjF-M.jpg

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/767847444_eLamb-M.jpg

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/767847661_8JWzm-M.jpg

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/767847713_pJ3gq-M.jpg

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/767848349_SmSeV-M.jpg

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/767848580_8RMyP-M.jpg

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/767848591_PZNUc-M.jpg

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/767849556_AmTQ7-M.jpg

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/767850542_gPDv6-M.jpg

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/767850731_KDJcd-M.jpg

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/767851306_jjZ6s-M.jpg

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/767851472_337K3-M.jpg

esskay
01-18-10, 19:03
More pics from M1Match:

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/767851535_my2AS-M.jpg

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/767852102_ar5o3-M.jpg

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/767852357_3Htp6-M.jpg

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/767852370_7U64d-M.jpg

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/767853212_oVJZ3-M.jpg

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/767853153_5wU4n-M.jpg

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/767853381_cWe5D-M.jpg

M4arc
01-31-10, 16:54
Great AAR and pics!

Shawn.L
01-31-10, 18:04
great AAR, really shows that you paid attention.

now...... ya gotta practice all that stuff. :)

I really like that LAV is teaching to reset during recoil. I was taught to reset after the sights come back down, Ive been trying to relearn and its a hard habit to break. good stuff.

m4fun
01-31-10, 23:44
I agree - great AAR - pics almost seem like Templar was there.