I'm trying to talk myself into a LaRue, but...

[Southern_Partisan]

Hey, fellas (and ladies)!! I'm a new member that has been lurking and studying the info found here on this site for about 2 months now. Unbelievable how much information is available, and I am both thankful and overwhelmed by the generosity of the various members in sharing their hard-won knowledge and experiences. Very professional, truly impressive. And a special thanks to all those who serve or have served in the Armed Forces and LE. God bless you.

Though I am not new to firearms, this will be my first AR. I'm the kind of guy who would rather pay more for quality and reliability up front than skimp on price and end up disappointed in the end - especially as this will be my primary SHTF weapon and "disappointment" could have some pretty severe consequences!! :)

This will be a 3-part question (to the Moderators, if this should have been posted elsewhere or broken up into 3 individual threads, my apologies).

I really like all I have read and heard about LaRue Tactical, but have also seriously considered going with BCM. I have been thinking about getting a LaRue 16" Stealth upper and LaRue billet lower receiver:

1.) The Chart and virtually everything else I have read here says to go with M4 feedramps. LaRue offers rifle feedramps on their Upper Receivers (directly through them, but these same uppers come with M4 feedramps through G&R - you just can't get the LaRue barrels or lowers through G&R). When I asked LaRue Sales about their lack of M4 feedramps, I was told "... not necessary for 99% of shooters", and "... in a mid-length, semiautomatic rifle, it simply isn't necessary". The Stealth would be a 16" mid-length without M4 feedramps, so the question is should I go with the LaRue barrel / receiver in a SHTF weapon if I cannot obtain it with the M4 feedramps??

2.) LW-50 stainless (LaRue) versus SS410 (BCM). LaRue's website seems to employ a Sales technique known as FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) to turn you off their competitor's offerings by implying potential issues with 416 and 410 Stainless such as throat erosion and shorter barrel life due to sulfur content in these lesser grades of steel. What are the real and tangible differences between LW-50 and SS410 for the average shooter?? This barrel will be on a semi-automatic rifle where the only anticipated use of a sustained, rapid-fire mode of firing would be if I found myself in a life-or-death personal defense situation where I was sending rounds downrange just as quickly as I could get them off.

3.) My initial impressions of billet lowers, based on my admittedly limited experience, have been favorable. I like that they can have very clean lines, integrated trigger guards, flared magwells, and that a billet 7075-T6 lower is as strong as one that has been forged. I was advised by a well-known and respected member of this forum that I should "pass on the billet lowers. They cause more problems than fix". Can anyone please explain to me what problems one could encounter by going with a quality billet lower like LaRue or Mega??

Sorry for the long post, and thank you in advance for your responses!!

[bkb0000]

1. M4 feedramps are sort of voodoo in applications like this, but the fact of the matter is- they don't hurt anything, and MIGHT (emphasizing the possibility, not the unlikiness) someday prevent a malfunction. I won't build a weapon without them, considering M4 ramps can almost always be had and just as easily as non-M4. its actually becoming more difficult to find A3 receivers than M4s, these days.

2. No clue... somebody around here might have some insight on this, but i'm gonna say it's a total non-issue. Noveske, BCM, WOA, etc, etc, etc, all use 416 or 410, and all of these barrels perform beautifully. i wouldn't discount the possibility that there's something "better" out there- there always is... but how much better do you need, and on a basically un-tested theory? I dont doubt the larue's are fantastic barrels- but take their marketing for what it is.

3. Billets from known-good manufacturers aren't likely to cause too many problems. I've had issues with a billet or two- the manufacturing process offers a lot more room for error, so they'll get ****ed up from time to time. but any of the good manfers will take care of any problems you might have. as to their practical application- none. they're purely for looks, or for ambidextrious benefits, on those billet lowers with ambi features.

the good news is- all this mostly comes down to minutia/preference, so there's no wrong answers here.

welcome to M4C, good luck with the project.

[HiggsBoson]

I'm no expert, but I've done some of the same research. Here are some standard questions to ask yourself when considering a purchase like this:

What is the intended purpose for this firearm?
What is the range at which you expect to use this rifle?
Will this be your only long-gun, or is it supplementary?
What is your level of experience with the AR platform?
Would features present in the LaRue Stealth (but absent in other ARs) be useful to you, given your intended use and experience level?
How limited is your budget? (you will need "extras" like ammo, sling, magazines, optics, training)

Disclaimer: I own Noveske, LMT, and BCM rifles. All have LaRue mounts for their optics. None have 416 steel barrels or billet lowers.

[ForTehNguyen]

they are correct in that you dont need M4 feed ramps for a middy. Middy has lower bolt velocity than the carbine. M4 feed ramps were created because the carbine cycled too fast for magazines sometimes, so its treating the symptom and not the problem.

I prefer BCM myself, reasonable no BS overpricing, high quality.

[HiggsBoson]

I prefer BCM myself, reasonable no BS overpricing, high quality.
This just about says it all.

[Southern_Partisan]

I've read that about the need for M4's on carbines and that it may not be necessary on a middy. I like what bkb0000 said, "they don't hurt anything, and MIGHT (emphasizing the possibility, not the unlikiness) someday prevent a malfunction". I guess I'm also of the school of thought that believes an ounce of prevention may be worth a pound of cure.

Yeah, I really like BCM too because it appears to me that they have really thought everything through and don't cut corners on quality, and because others here have attested to their excellent Customer Service. I just needed to know if there was a substantial difference between LW-50 and SS410.

As for the Lowers, I know I'd be happy with a BCM but I really like the integrated trigger guard and the flared magwell on those by LaRue and Mega. My ultra-badass CZ SP-01 9mm and most high-end commercial / custom 1911's have flared magwells to aid in magazine insertion (particularly under stress), so I figure it has to be a plus.

I'll be looking forward to learning more on the subject as the responses continue to roll in.

[RCK]

Recently traded into an 18" Larue upper. Just stunning piece of equipment. I put a rough 100 yd zero on an ACOG I stuck on it and proceeded to put shot after shot on a steel deer at the 600 yd line. A bit uphill and in fading light at that. I don't know if the LW-50 steel is for real or voodoo, but it shoots!

[crazymoose]

I don't know much about the metallurgy of LW50 steel, but 410 stainless is very tough stuff. It doesn't really contain much sulfur, which makes it more difficult and costly to machine vs. 416 and 416R. This is why, off the top of my head (there might be more), only BCM and Sabre use 410. IMO, if you want maximum durability in a stainless gun, these two companies make the barrels to use. I have a BCM 16" mid SS tube with which I'm extremely happy.

[groovinpickle]

I ordered a 16" Stealth recently (it hasn't shipped yet) and had some of the same thoughts/questions. It's only a little over $100 more than a comparable BCM, but for me to boiled down to customer service. Not to say that BCM's isn't good, but LaRue has the "if you ain't happy, we ain't happy" philosophy. I searched and read dozens of threads on the Stealth, and I'm confident that what I'll receive is a top-notch upper that will shoot as well as can be expected from a gun in this class, and if for some reason there's a problem, that LaRue will take care of it.

As far as I'm concerned, the feed ramps, barrel material, etc. are just means to an end. I'm not an expert in this arena, but I know what I want out of the rifle, and I trust the folks at LaRue to deliver on that. I'm not a LaRue fanboy of the caliber found on some other sites (cough cough), but I do think that they do a lot of things right.

[Patrick Aherne]

What are you using it for? If it's a "grab the rifle and save myself if SHTF" rifle then get a plain, old BCM for about $450. If you want something to serve as a SPR/sniper type rifle, buy the Larue.

If you don't know what you want, buy the BCM and save the money to take a class and buy ammo for training.

[Patrick Aherne]

I ordered a 16" Stealth recently (it hasn't shipped yet) and had some of the same thoughts/questions. It's only a little over $100 more than a comparable BCM, but for me to boiled down to customer service. Not to say that BCM's isn't good, but LaRue has the "if you ain't happy, we ain't happy" philosophy. I searched and read dozens of threads on the Stealth, and I'm confident that what I'll receive is a top-notch upper that will shoot as well as can be expected from a gun in this class, and if for some reason there's a problem, that LaRue will take care of it.



You're just wrong about BCM's customer service. Paul is a good dude, he will make things right, just like Mark. Buy what you want with either company, with confidence.

[6933]

BCM's customer service isn't good; it's great. Can't go wrong with either choice.

[ST911]

LT and BCM both produce outstanding products and back them with stellar customer service.

The LT Stealth might be overkill for certain uses, but it's not a bad investment at all.

I have a complete Stealth and like it very much. It will drive tacks, or run a defensive carbine course equally well. I simply swap optics to suit.

[snafu]

If I was spending the money,,Noveske hands down.

That being said both BCM and LaRue are great to deal with.
Both have great customer service.

[GMZ]

I was contemplating between LaRue, Noveske, and BCM. I ended up getting a BCM. My review thread is on here somewhere.

[groovinpickle]

You're just wrong about BCM's customer service. Paul is a good dude, he will make things right, just like Mark. Buy what you want with either company, with confidence.
Beg your pardon, but I wasn't downing BCM's service. But since you mentioned it...

I bought a <$200 item from BCM recently but decided that I wanted to return the [unopened] item. I read their policy, saw a mention of a 10% restocking fee, and inquired as to whether it's discretionary (essentially asking them to waive it). I heard back from them that my return would be accepted, but that the restocking fee would be applied.

Now, their policy is stated clearly on their site: there is a 10% restocking fee for as-new, unopened merchandise. I don't consider that unreasonable. It was through no fault of theirs that I wanted to return the item. But if you look at LaRue's policy, it's far more forgiving. No restocking fee, a 30-day trial period on LaRue-made products, etc.

So, I'll say again:

... but for me to boiled down to customer service. Not to say that BCM's isn't good, but LaRue has the "if you ain't happy, we ain't happy" philosophy.

[tuff]

The FACT is, you will be perfectly happy with Larue or BCM, both make top notch kit that is good to go.. and both have AWESOME customer service..

[Southern_Partisan]

I figured I'd be good-to-go with either barrel, and from your responses it doesn't sound like there is an appreciable difference between the two. As for the M4 feedramps, I think I really would prefer them just for that small incremental peace of mind...

So, how about those Lowers?? I'm trying to understand what sort of problems I might potentially encounter by choosing to go with a billet lower rather than a forged lower?? I would have assumed that manufacturing a billet lower using CNC milling and CMM measuring equipment would ensure extremely close tolerances. Am I missing something here??

[wingo]

You are not going to find much negativity about either of these barrels. I built a LT stealth and it will just put on right next to the other. My POA does not change with different weights of ammo. I have no hands on with the BCM. I don't see how M4 ramps are going to help you on this type of upper?

That said why would a first time buyer go stainless anyway? Chrome lined guns are less of a hassle and may help you learn as you make mistakes. If you have that kind of money get both, start with a N4 or BCM HFB. Don't you have the need to do some magdumps:)?

Edit: Have been running a inferior sun devil for years without any problems. The LT is a robust cnc work of art. I also have a forged local lower by Carolina Mt. Tactical, and a Noveske. The LPK will make more difference IMHO. None of these lowers seem to function differently. They all have different weights though.

[bkb0000]

billets are subject to many more variables than forgings. machining forgings is a limited endeavor- shops that finish forgings have production, cost, and tooling limitations that contribute to a much narrower spectrum of variables. obviously its possibly to completely **** up hole placement and magwell cutouts, but it's not really possibly to screw up dimensions. another variable-limiting factor is that forgings are almost always machined from punch-tape or other pre-compiled parameters taken directly from "milspec" blue prints.

a lower machined from billet, on the other hand, is sculpted from a solid billet (the "billet" is the block of metal the lower is machined from)- the production limitations inherent to forging finishing are totally absent. it doesn't cost a dime more or take a second longer to machine these lowers totally and completely ****ed up. also, the designs themselves are generally completely proprietary, and subject to the mistakes, whims, and theories of the guy designing them. now add the fact that many of these shops, probably most of them, aren't working with the most advanced equipment- they're just regular small production shops looking to diversify their markets... 2-axis only, odd tooling, limited tooling, hand-programmed coordinates, etc. if you've ever spent any time in a machine shop, you've seen guys do some really stupid shit. mistakes get made in machining just like they do in every trade.

case in point- and i'll probably take heat for this criticism, because Sun Devil is loved by many here- but i strongly suspect Dave just took some calipers to a DPMS charging handle when deciding how wide to machine his charging channels- and because DPMS charging handles are skinny, you can only use DPMS charging handles in his uppers. He's of the opinion DPMS makes great parts, and recommends they be used with his billet receivers. they're really nice (his receivers, that is), but i've had too many compatibility problems with them to use them anymore.

chances are, a billet lower will give you no problems. i illustrate for perspective purposes only.

[strambo]

I don't know much about different barrel steels or anything...but Larue got feedback on one of their uppers from a military user recently that had about 56,000 rounds through it before it key-holed. I think he said it went about 30K before accuracy opened up from less than MOA to about 2MOA then held there until it started keyhole-ing.

I couldn't afford enough ammo to wear out either barrel...I'm sure either one would be great.

[NinjaTactics]

1.) The Chart and virtually everything else I have read here says to go with M4 feedramps. LaRue offers rifle feedramps on their Upper Receivers (directly through them, but these same uppers come with M4 feedramps through G&R - you just can't get the LaRue barrels or lowers through G&R). When I asked LaRue Sales about their lack of M4 feedramps, I was told "... not necessary for 99% of shooters", and "... in a mid-length, semiautomatic rifle, it simply isn't necessary". The Stealth would be a 16" mid-length without M4 feedramps, so the question is should I go with the LaRue barrel / receiver in a SHTF weapon if I cannot obtain it with the M4 feedramps?? The reason LaRue says feedramps aren't necessary for 99% of shooters is because they were designed to aid in reducing complications of loading when on full-automatic fire rates, which 99% of civilian shooters will never do. That being said, if they are priced similarly, why not go with the option that 100% of shooters could use (ie with feedramps)?


2.) LW-50 stainless (LaRue) versus SS410 (BCM). LaRue's website seems to employ a Sales technique known as FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) to turn you off their competitor's offerings by implying potential issues with 416 and 410 Stainless such as throat erosion and shorter barrel life due to sulfur content in these lesser grades of steel. What are the real and tangible differences between LW-50 and SS410 for the average shooter?? This barrel will be on a semi-automatic rifle where the only anticipated use of a sustained, rapid-fire mode of firing would be if I found myself in a life-or-death personal defense situation where I was sending rounds downrange just as quickly as I could get them off.For the 'average shooter' there will be no difference. Also, ask yourself why you need a stainless barrel as well for your purposes. Would it simply be better to use the extra money for additional ammo and training?


3.) My initial impressions of billet lowers, based on my admittedly limited experience, have been favorable. I like that they can have very clean lines, integrated trigger guards, flared magwells, and that a billet 7075-T6 lower is as strong as one that has been forged. I was advised by a well-known and respected member of this forum that I should "pass on the billet lowers. They cause more problems than fix". Can anyone please explain to me what problems one could encounter by going with a quality billet lower like LaRue or Mega??Most billet lowers try to improve the design of existing forged lowers, so sometimes people experiment. There's nothing wrong with forged lowers, so again, ask yourself if the extra money is worth it, or would be better served for additional ammo and training.

Personally I'd rather use extra money for ammo and training, because I'm of the opinion that I'd rather have a mastery of my chosen weapon than just be decent with a possibly superior weapon. If you can afford the fanciest weapon plus unlimited ammo and training then that's even better. Both of the options you outlined are high quality and should be reliable, so it's up to you on what you value and how you wish to spend your money. I would say that you'll probably only buy an AR-15 variant once, but that would be a lie because you'll probably become very interested and buy multiple ones eventually.

Disclaimer: I own LMT, BCM, and Noveske stuff mainly (LaRue mounts as well).

[Belmont31R]

The reason LaRue says feedramps aren't necessary for 99% of shooters is because they were designed to aid in reducing complications of loading when on full-automatic fire rates, which 99% of civilian shooters will never do. That being said, if they are priced similarly, why not go with the option that 100% of shooters could use (ie with feedramps)?

For the 'average shooter' there will be no difference. Also, ask yourself why you need a stainless barrel as well for your purposes. Would it simply be better to use the extra money for additional ammo and training?

Most billet lowers try to improve the design of existing forged lowers, so sometimes people experiment. There's nothing wrong with forged lowers, so again, ask yourself if the extra money is worth it, or would be better served for additional ammo and training.

Personally I'd rather use extra money for ammo and training, because I'm of the opinion that I'd rather have a mastery of my chosen weapon than just be decent with a possibly superior weapon. If you can afford the fanciest weapon plus unlimited ammo and training then that's even better. Both of the options you outlined are high quality and should be reliable, so it's up to you on what you value and how you wish to spend your money. I would say that you'll probably only buy an AR-15 variant once, but that would be a lie because you'll probably become very interested and buy multiple ones eventually.

Disclaimer: I own LMT, BCM, and Noveske stuff mainly (LaRue mounts as well).



Funny you mention LMT, BCM, and Noveske and then tell the guy to buy something other than LaRue to save money for "ammo and training".

A comparitively outfitted LMT, BCM, and Noveske is going to cost in the same ballpark as those 3 brands, and Noveske's uppers are more expensive.

Feedramps? We have how many thousands of guy in combat right now without M4 feedramps, and my Stealth never had a single malfunction in around 7k rounds. My only rifle Ive had to do this, and Ive owned all the brands discussed here + others. Some cost more some cost less.

The cheapest Noveske that is similar to the Stealth runs 2300-2400 dollars for the complete gun. LaRue is 1200+250 for the lower...That leaves almost a thousand extra dollars to finish the lower, sights, SSA trigger, stock, etc. You would undoubtely end up with a better value going LaRue over Noveske for a similar rifle (16"+ stainless). If you're talking CHF barrel the KAC SR15 is a better value for the dollar. More advanced BCG design, better lower as far as functionality, better trigger, etc.

BCM would be cheaper but not by much. A compariable upper is still going to be close to 1k or more. LMT's only factory offering that is close is the MRP which would probably cost the same or more.