Do I NEED a laser? [Archive] - M4Carbine.net Forums

HughJass

01-19-10, 20:38

vietboy1st

01-19-10, 21:56

O.K. I have never been really all that convinced but lately I have been reconsidering a laser. Is there really an application for one in civilian SHTF use? Also why they HUGE swing in price there is the Chinese stuff and then there is the Expensive U.S. made stuff what is the real difference?

ok dude, First the chinese made stuff just to get mony in your pocket without caring the quality of it. But american made good stuff and care about the quality and you get what you paid for.:D Stay away from chinese stuff. Chinese are good at copying stuff and make a clone one. like eotech scope and a real one made in usa.:D. If you want the laser. surefire company made those for weapon.

Gutshot John

01-19-10, 22:00

Yes there is a huge difference in quality/reliability. I remember when a swingline stapler used to work every time. Now that they're made in China they suck. A laser is far more complex.

That said while there are applications it's not the panacea many would have you believe...spend the money on training first. You certainly don't NEED a laser, whether you really really WANT one is a different matter.

vietboy1st

01-19-10, 22:14

yeah. But teh cool thing about the laser is you just point and shoot 200 yard or less:D

Gutshot John

01-19-10, 22:20

yeah. But teh cool thing about the laser is you just point and shoot 200 yard or less:D

Just out of curiosity have you actually tried that at 200 yards?

Pointing and shooting a laser doesn't make up for lack of training.

JSantoro

01-22-10, 00:16

You certainly don't NEED a laser, whether you really really WANT one is a different matter.

This^^^.

Almost nobody needs a visible laser. A great many people that buy and mount them do so because, at the bottom of it all, they just don't want to take the time to learn how to shoot or feel that they "can't" get trained and practice. This could be absolutely viable income-dependent reasoning, but if you have the $$$ to buy a laser, you have the $$$ to buy ammo and get training, by and large.

I don't completely poo-poo them, but think that they have a very limited application. Best ones, in my opinion, are for those who have poor enough vision that they literally can't focus well on sights or see them at all. Another is for those who are handicapped in some way; they can't hold a gun in the right position to use sights, or aren't strong enough to keep it there and hold it steady, things of that nature. I think that visible lasers are incredible tools to make up for a no-shit physical liability.

In that idiom, I feel that the vast majority of visible laser users use them as a crutch to prop up a lack of skill that they won't develop, i.e., effectively refuse to develop, as there are actually very, very few people in the population who literally can't learn to shoot. Lasers, even the quality ones, have batteries go south or crap out at errant times.

When teaching folks about the use of weapon lasers, I use a GPS analogy: great tools, but when the thing goes boobs-up on you, and it WILL, you'd better know how to use a map and a compass and read landmarks. Same thing with sights. If you get to the point that a laser can enhance or supplement ability, hit it. LaserMax, Crimson Trace both make good functional products. Surefire and Insight, among others, make light/laser combos that are very reliable.

blackrifle15

03-13-10, 03:52

Lasers can be fun to use at the range or the ranch but they are definetly not a necessity. I only use mine on ocassion for entertainment purposes but usually leave it off my rifle. They are nice on carry guns and have a definite intimidation factor.

bluepythons

03-13-10, 18:20

I agree there is not a need for a laser, some of the above posts do offer some good uses though health etc. One use for a laser that I have found is when wearing a gas mask. I have found in my situation (LE) when in training that shooting with the laser on my carbine while wearing a mask has improved speed greatly. Can I see my Aimpoint with the mask on, yes of course. Do I rely on it, no but it is nice. Now on a pistol, especially when I get stuck carrying the shield, I would say its very nice to have.

Another point to consider is that a laser allows you to focus on the suspect or target. Yes you can look through the sites and focus on the target. In my experience I have found much less tunnel vision and greater field of view when holding a subject at gunpoint with the laser rather than with irons or an optic.

Short answer, do you need it? No. Can it be a nice tool to have assuming you already have the fundamentals down, yes. Consider how you will mount it on a carbine, in almost every spot I can think of it is subject to getting bumped and knocked around. You need to have a back up no matter what laser you get.

Dave

John_Wayne777

03-13-10, 18:36

Originally written by Larry Vickers:

As many of you know I am a consultant for Crimson Trace Lasergrips. I am sure some of you will quit reading right now expecting this to be a “puff piece” talking about how great they are and not admitting any downside. Those of you in that category certainly don’t know me very well. The following is the reality of visible lasers & CTC Lasergrips according to Larry Vickers with no punches pulled.

I used to think, like many others, that pistol lasers were a joke. Fortunately for me I have not had to eat as much crow over this topic as my good friend Ken Hackathorn but I have eaten my fair share. After giving them an honest assessment here is what it really boils down to: a laser on a pistol offers much the same advantages as red dot reflex sights on a carbine or SMG. Under stress shooting scenarios they make shooting a handgun a much easier task; they are a very useful tool in the toolbox.

I highlight CTC lasers in my night fire portion of my handgun instruction along with night sights and white light principles and techniques. At night and in conditions of limited visibility they are nothing short of awesome; they make accurate handgun shooting easier than any other sighting system currently on the market. Don’t get me wrong, night sights and white light have their place but a visible laser at night rules. Period. Anyone who has had one of my classes or been taught by Ken Hackathorn can attest to that. They dramatically improve the shooters ability to get accurate hits at night. Of course like anything else visible lasers have pros and cons and we will highlight those in detail.

1) Where and when to use lasers – a rule of thumb is any time you have any degree of difficulty seeing your pistol sights then a visible laser will be an advantage. For instance coming into a building from outside even during the day the laser will be of value indoors. Out in bright daylight I prefer my iron sights and find the laser a bit of a distraction. Anytime you combine low or reduced visibility with shooting on the move or unconventional shooting positions the laser is a distinct advantage. Police have found that visible lasers to be a distinct advantage while using a shield; that would fall into the unconventional shooting position category mentioned above. They are also excellent training aids for watching shooter trigger control as any movement during the trigger squeeze will show up on target. When first using the laser shooters will try and eliminate all movement and early on this can cause shooters snatching or jerking the trigger. Once you learn to accept your wobble zone (which is now more visible due to the visible laser on target) then fast and accurate shooting comes more naturally. Once mastered you can shoot faster and more accurate under low light conditions than you ever could with regular pistol sights or even night sights for that matter.

2) Special Considerations with lasers – As a battery operated device occasionally they will need new batteries. Crimson Trace advertises a 4 hour continuous run time on their laser grips. That is sufficient for most use as I can attest; I have not had to change any batteries to date. Oil, solvents, water and dust can all play a part in making the visible laser less than 100% functional. Because of this they do occasionally need maintenance and cleaning. I know that is a shocker to many but it is probably a good idea once in awhile to make sure your pistol is properly cleaned, lubricated, and maintained. That would include your visible laser aiming device. I am a believer in having your laser separate from your white light for a couple reasons. You will always have an enhanced night fighting capability even when your white light is removed and you can have serious issues with retaining zero depending on the light/laser mounting system. For these reasons and others I prefer Crimson Trace Lasergrips over accessory rail mounted light/laser units. One downside is CTC does not make Lasergrips for every service pistol on the market so depending on your gun you may not have an option.

3) Durability and reliability – CTC has sold thousands of M9 Beretta Laser Grips to the US Military. They have been received with overwhelming positive feedback. Remember the M9 does not even have night sights so the Lasergrips add a low light capability that simply did not exist before. This is a huge advantage and many of the troops appreciate it. The visible laser is also very useful for crowd control as the “red dot” seems to cross all language and cultural barriers. As we know combat is the ultimate test bed and CTC has taken lessons learned in the sandbox and is moving forward with a true milspec M9 Lasergrip: water and dust proof. It is being developed as this is written so it is too soon to project a date when they will be available.

My personal favorite CTC Lasergrips are the S&W J frame versions (every J frame on the planet should have them; it is nothing short of a revolutionary shooting aid on that gun), the model 401 M1911 version, and the M9 Beretta Lasergrips. I use and endorse all three of these. That is not to say these are the only ones worth using just that they are my favorites. Another little trick is to send the plastic Lasergrips to David Bowie (not the singer) at www.bowietacticalconcepts.com for his superb stippling. This makes them less slippery and because of the way Dave stipples them it actually enhances the appearance of the grips. I was the first to start this trend with David and I would not use a set without it. Highly recommended.

I will close this by saying if you have not tried a visible laser you should. Especially if CTC makes a pair of Lasergrips for your favorite blaster. Remember they are meant to augment the standard pistol sights, not replace them. They are simply another tool in the tool box.

http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/crimson-trace-lasergrips/

Lasers are an easier to use low-light aiming reference. Because they are electronic there is the possibility that they will fail, so having another low light aiming option (like night sights) is advised. Training with your iron sights the majority of the time is advised.

...but when it's dark, and the situation is dynamic, currently a laser is the best low light aiming reference you can get on a handgun. (Mini RDS sights may eclipse them someday) Like red dots on rifles they make the process of putting bullets on target a bit easier. Is it possible to make hits in low light without a laser? Sure...but it's easier to do with the laser.

In a gunfight often the only advantage you will have is the one you give yourself ahead of time. Lasers are an advantage. In that moment when it's down to putting bullets into a bad guy or dying, how much of an advantage do you want on your side?

SHIVAN

03-13-10, 18:49

Using a borrowed Sig 229 with CTC grips on it, I made 75% of my hits at 25yds on a 1/2 IPSC target with almost no ambient light at all - no moon, 10pm or later.

Using my 1911 with white light, I made hits about 50% of the time.

I think the results spoke for themselves. I can't seem to ever set aside the funds to outfit my pistol and carbine with a visible laser, but if I had the funds and discipline to apply them to a quality laser, I would do it.

Armati

03-13-10, 20:19

I have a CTC grip on my M9 and I would agree with everything LV said on pistol lasers.

My wife has very limited pistol skills. She is ok with a Glock and pretty much hates my M9. I had her practice with my M9 just to learn the manual of arms. I had the laser off the whole time so she could learn how to 'punch out' and take up slack into the sights. She could hit somewhere center mass after a bit of practice. Then I turned on the laser! Her shot group went down to about a third the size.

For an M4 I don't think you will get that much out of them. For some reason the SEALs really like the CVL but I have never understood why.

In lieu of a proper IR laser and NODs it may have an application at night on an M4. I have always wondered if you could use a visible laser to illuminate the interior of a dark room at range.

HowardCohodas

03-14-10, 00:36

I will not EDC any handgun without a laser, preferably Crimson Trace because of its engineering, reliability and company reputation.

With all the tactical benefits mentioned above, I believe the training benefits are just as significant, if not more significant. My students promise to practice, but going to the range is inconvenient, expensive and ammo is costly and in short supply. The key to pistolcraft was, is and probably always will be smooth trigger pull. This skill is sometimes difficult to teach a new shooter. One-on-one coaching sometimes can be effective. However, there is nothing more effective than the tool we used to learn to walk. Biofeedback! The biofeedback provided to the student by the muzzle movement amplified by the red dot on the wall is an incredible teaching tool using the body's natural systems. Furthermore, smooth trigger pull is a perishable skill. So constant training is important. It doesn't take many dry fire sessions to balance the cost of the laser with the cost of range fees and ammo.

Once smooth trigger pull is in muscle memory, training must continue without the laser as well. You never know when the electrical stuff will fail, but the mechanical stuff will continue to operate.

Now the tactical benefits mentioned above can be applied.

kmrtnsn

03-14-10, 00:40

Unless you are mounting them on sharks, you don't need a laser.

HowardCohodas

03-14-10, 01:14

Unless you are mounting them on sharks, you don't need a laser.

Pithy, but uninformative. Care to share your reasoning?

Harv

03-14-10, 19:52

If I felt I NEEDED a laser, I would have one... I don't... A white light is all I need for any low light confrontation I'm going to encounter. One more thing I have to fumble with and try to use under the duress of a fight. I'll pass...

kmrtnsn

03-14-10, 20:01

"Pithy, but uninformative. Care to share your reasoning?"

I no longer find that I need to designate targets for others using NVD's, I would venture that 99.9% of those here are in the same situation. The OP is considering a laser for some SHTF scenario. In such a situation his money would be better spend on something, anything more useful, night sights, a decent optic, additional quality mags, etc.

Also, Google "lasers sharks".

John_Wayne777

03-14-10, 21:23

The OP is considering a laser for some SHTF scenario.

I'm not an expert, but I have actually been on the wrong end of a gun before. When I was in the floor bleeding from a GSW I certainly thought the S had HTF. It wasn't Blackhawk Down or the Chosin Reservoir by any stretch...but it still sucked.

Just my view on it.

Magic_Salad0892

03-14-10, 22:22

I can fire a rifle or a pistol fine without a laser sight.

Do I need one? No.

Do I want one? At all times, yes, yes, yes.

Why?

Outstanding night shooting capabilities.
Amazing speed.
The capability to continue combat if I'm wounded and cannot use sights.
Very lightweight. (Yes I'm talking to you beloved LaserMax.)
Intimidation and crowd control.
Blinding capability.
Very easy to see, and for the human eye to pick up in moments of stress, speed, or low light condition (as mentioned before.)
Good for dry fire practice at home, as mentioned before.

It is a life saving tool that I believe is critical to a firearm.

You will call me crazy for sure, but I'd rather have a laser on my pistol or rifle than a light.

Lights will get you noticed, night vision and a visible or IR laser will not. (Most of the time.)

Stealth is critical in a survival situation.

I will never criticize somebody for not using a laser on their rifle though.

After all... their rifle is lighter than mine is by a few ounces. (Unless I'm using my LaserMax in which case it's only lighter by an ounce or so.)

motorolahamm

03-15-10, 11:48

what about a beamshot green like this one ??
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=49593

JSantoro

03-15-10, 14:41

BLUF = hinky.

I put a full response in the indicated thread to prevent thread drift here.

Drew78

03-27-10, 13:22

I just ran my glock 19 with a ct 417 laser at the range. Probably the best range outing I have ever had in terms of producing insane groupings. It was quite educational to see all that wobble!

As far as using it as a compliment for mt EDC I am still on the fence. While draw and rapid fire within 10 feet, I still was indexIng my slide, don't even remember seeing the red dot the first time. The second time I tried to focus on the red dot and I was significantly slower. I also was distracted by trying to "find" it in a rapid fire string and it dosent co index with my irons.
I will keep it on my other g19 with the x300 for my bump in the night setup.

Just my thoughts...

-drew

LockenLoad

03-27-10, 15:30

Just out of curiosity have you actually tried that at 200 yards?

Pointing and shooting a laser doesn't make up for lack of training.

at 200 yards it would take me longer to find the dot then aim with irons, no if you have a magnified scope different, but then you don't really need a laser?

markm

03-27-10, 15:51

RogerinTPA

03-27-10, 20:36

O.K. I have never been really all that convinced but lately I have been reconsidering a laser. Is there really an application for one in civilian SHTF use? Also why they HUGE swing in price there is the Chinese stuff and then there is the Expensive U.S. made stuff what is the real difference?

You never stated what type of weapon you wanted it for.

For Pistol, Yes, (Echoing what others have said) especially low light and night, supplemented with a light, hand held or mounted.

For Carbine, No. You'd be better served with a quality red dot sight, a mounted quality light.

Quality Training in both weapons, day and night.

LHS

03-28-10, 02:22

In my experience, the laser is a useful tool in the pistol shooter's box. In bright sunlight, it's worthless past about 5 yards, and even then it's hard to pick up. At night, it rules. On a J-frame, it rules. If you have to shoot from an unconventional position such as from retention, around a shield, or when wounded, it rules.

Both my EDC guns (Beretta Elite and J-frame) carry CTC LaserGrips. The LG-405 J-frame grip is the most comfortable concealment grip I've ever used, and the laser just makes it better. I ran a 400-round BUG course with it, and despite all the G26s in the hands of very good shooters, the two high students were myself and Jeff Cahill, both using CTC-equipped J-frames. I used to have a set of LG-302s on my Beretta, but switched to the LG-402 mil-spec version primarily for the front-mounted activator instead of the side-mounted activator.

I also find the laser to be valuable as a training aid. When using a laser, it's painfully obvious, even to the novice shooter, when someone's bedeviled by El Snatcho. The last time I was at the range, an acquaintance was snatching the hell out of his XD45 and swore up and down that the sights were 'off' until he shot his wife's CTC-equipped G19 and everyone on the line saw that red dot jerking halfway across the target just before the gun went bang.

That said, the laser does not replace iron sights. It's another tool in the box, useful in some scenarios. It just so happens that it's niche is in a dark, fast-moving environment. If you have to shoot in bright light, use your irons. If you have to shoot in the dark, the laser rules.

Bimmer

04-02-10, 00:21

OTO27

04-02-10, 01:04

LHS

04-02-10, 01:31

Forgive the hi-jack...

I'm a Glock fan.

I see a lot of Crimson Trace fans here, and they make a laser for the Glock, but since there are no grip panels to replace, it's an awkward-looking stuck-on thing...

I like the idea of the LaserMax a lot better (it replaces the recoil spring guide rod).

Any opinions on LaserMax?

Bimmer

I like the CT Glock grips because they act as a beavertail and make the grip angle more 1911-ish. Unfortunately, the older models don't have a master on/off switch, and with the activator on the backstrap, you're pretty much going to have the laser on whenever you have a good firing grip.

As for the LaserMax... I don't like replacing a critical internal part like a guide rod with a laser. Just my $.02.

John_Wayne777

04-02-10, 07:49

Sure you should get a laser, nothing works better at giving up your position than a red stream of light leading to you.lol. Joking aside, unless you get an extremely hard to get peq ir iluminator, an actual visible laser pointer is useless. Sure, it has sort of an intimidation factor, but thats it.

I will point you back to page 1 where I posted a very nice article written up by one of our resident SME's.

Lasers have a very REAL and very TANGIBLE benefit, especially in low light. Now it's understandable that everyone out there has not yet had a chance to seriously use one to see the benefits first hand, but what is inexcusable is folks with obviously little firsthand experience actually using a visible laser pontificating on their lack of utility.

It's about as tiresome as the Luddites who scowl at the use of a red dot sight on a carbine.

Lasers work. Like red dot optics, they make the process of putting a bullet on target easier, especially under stress and especially in conditions of low light.

Period.

The proper way to use a laser is to leave the laser turned off until you are in need of an aiming reference which makes it exceedingly difficult for a bad guy to use the laser to see you. Odds are that the laser is extremely unlikely to give you away since you'll also likely be using some sort of white light which is MUCH more noticeable than a tiny laser dot.

tr1kstanc3

04-02-10, 10:03

I have a TLR-2 on my M&P Pro which is my nightstand weapon. I also have bad vision without my glasses or contacts in. It is a huge plus to have it if I needed it but I wouldn't go running around my house with it on if I was doing a search and assessment. It's something you use when the time comes to use it similar to your white light.

I used to think lasers were gimmicks. This was before I had exposure, experience, and training on how to deploy them.

That being said, at the range I am faster and more accurate using the irons only.

FlyAndFight

04-02-10, 10:37

I have the Crimson Trace grips on my Sig P220 along with a TLR-1 on the rail. As with all things firearm related, proper training is required to be fully affective in utilizing all of these tools.

Magic_Salad0892

04-11-10, 14:48

In regards to lasers giving away your position, that only applies if you're like me.

I hate using flashlights and the like, as they give away my position.

If I need to see, I use night vision.

I still use visible lasers though. They work, when I need them to.

Submariner

04-18-10, 06:55

Pat Rogers sent this to me when we acquired a TLR-2:

The best way is in training, dry

Place tgt on wall. Paper plate in center
Shut off red dot

Look at target when moving

Goal is to keep laser dot on plate.

Have coach watch shooters body movement- shooter can provide dot feedback.

Poor movement will be dot scattered all over.

Solid movement will be smaller, possibly figure 8 movement

It works pretty good.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/DasBoot56/TLR-2001.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/DasBoot56/TLR-2005.jpg