View Full Version : Evidence Recovery for Federal Theft Investigation
dmancornell
01-21-10, 13:47
Just got an email from a USN lawyer saying the ACOG I bought from eBay last year is probably stolen and they want it back. :(
Anyone else here dealt with the same situation? How'd it turn out?
It virtually always ends up with the voluntary return of the property to the rightful owner, or execution of a search warrant and seizure of the property. It's not often that the owner will simply let you keep it.
You could ask for compensation for the voluntary return. Shoot for partial recovery of your loss, hope for shipping. Get a receipt if you return it.
You can likely file a small claim against the original seller for your loss, unless he too is an innocent owner and was defrauded.
Let us know how it goes.
dmancornell
01-21-10, 14:02
Should have provided more detail. According to the email, the eBay seller is (was?) a US Navy sailor who stole the scopes and sold them online and is currently under investigation. So the owner is the US government.
The lawyer email stated that if they cannot ascertain the scope is really USN property (via some serial number), they can't force me to return it.
Also, he referred me to the investigated party (the sailor and his attorney) for compensation. Fat chance of that yielding anything, right?
Just got an email from a USN lawyer saying the ACOG I bought from eBay last year is probably stolen and they want it back. :(
Anyone else here dealt with the same situation? How'd it turn out?
it's "probably" stolen, so they want it back? i think i'd DEFINATELY be getting more information, and verification, before any decisions are made.
Ask for a written letter. Sounds like BS if it was an e-mail.
Just got an email from a USN lawyer saying the ACOG I bought from eBay last year is probably stolen and they want it back. :(
Anyone else here dealt with the same situation? How'd it turn out?
An email? HA, delete and move on.
dmancornell
01-21-10, 16:42
Yeah I'm ignoring the email. If they want something, they can knock on my door. Until then, I'm going to enjoy my absurdly cheap but real ACOG.
If they gave you contact information contact them at the provided phone numbers and verify that the email is legit. If it it truly gov't property you don't want to be in possession of it when they come looking for it.
I would personally return it if the email is legit. That's part of the risk of buying cheap shit off eBay. It's cheap for a reason.
However, you should also contact eBay and ask for a refund if you hopefully paid with Paypal. They will probably require proof from the USN but will refund your money once they've obtained the proof.
Also keep in mind that they probably got your email addy from eBay and also have you're other info.
My advice, don't play around with this.
Just got an email from a USN lawyer saying the ACOG I bought from eBay last year is probably stolen and they want it back. :(
Anyone else here dealt with the same situation? How'd it turn out?
I'd verify that this guy is for real. You never know if you are being scammed. My next concern is this. How many ACOGs would the Navy have? They aren't exactly a dirt fighting force. I'd find it hard to believe that the Seals are losing their geat and it is ending up on EBay. I doubt the Seabees would have ACOGs.
Just got an email from a USN lawyer saying the ACOG I bought from eBay last year is probably stolen and they want it back. :(
Anyone else here dealt with the same situation? How'd it turn out?
A email???? I can tell you first hand that when they want to talk with you they will call you in person THEN they want to come and meet with you. And you mentioned that they dont even know for certain it is a stolen item? I would be seriously surprised if this turned out to be a real situation and not a scam of sorts...
Cruncher Block
01-21-10, 19:36
A email???? I can tell you first hand that when they want to talk with you they will call you in person THEN they want to come and meet with you. And you mentioned that they dont even know for certain it is a stolen item? I would be seriously surprised if this turned out to be a real situation and not a scam of sorts...
I'm not an attorney but this sounds right to me. The facts add up to "scam" more quickly than they add up to "trouble".
It seems odd that a naval "attorney" would be contacting you. Seems like the official's title would be more like "investigator".
Email is not the right medium for this type of communication. If they're investigating the seller and know he sold it to you, seems like they would have your mailing address.
And, of course, your email address and the fact that you bought the ACOG is probably really easy to find by any schmoe on eBay.
In my state, falsely claiming to be an attorney is a criminal offense (IIRC). If it were me, I'd be tempted to mention that in my reply. I'd ask for further contact information and someone who could verify the "attorney's" bona fides. That way, you're covered whether he's real or not.
I too would not trust this email. When they come to the door with a badge...maybe.
Seriously, shouldn't formal communication be involved here as well as badged personnel for interviewing and if necessary, evidence collection and/or recovery?
Can you copy and past the email for us to read?
Yeah I'm ignoring the email. If they want something, they can knock on my door. Until then, I'm going to enjoy my absurdly cheap but real ACOG.
If it is stolen, and the USN had purchased it on a government purchase order, they already have the serial number .. they should have stated in their notification to you that they are looking for specific serial numbers and if you possess it to .. well, you decide .. in business law, you are not required to suffer a loss or obligated to return the product .. unless of course you knowingly received stolen property.
Of "asking" for product return is not "demanding" product return .. if this involves a lot of money, you should talk to an attorney before any action is taken.
my 2 cents: the government will write off such losses or turn over to the FBI for investigation .. either way, stay on the right side of the law and know your rights.
dmancornell
01-21-10, 20:34
I'd rather not paste the email because it contains personal information of the investigated party whom might not know that he's in the legal crosshairs.
The email did contain very specific information regarding the seller's name, his naval rank and his ebay account name with which the item was sold to me, and the time of sale (which is too long ago to show up on active pages). It also specifically mentioned the name of the NCIS agent in charge of the investigation and his seemingly legitimate email address.
The email also listed his full list of sales... I figure the guy made over $50k selling eotechs, acog's, schmidt & bender and other high dollar items.
To be honest, this might not be a scam. The NCIS agent probably emailed because ebay refused to give out any more information than an account's email address. If this is real, they appear in person and tell me they need the evidence to prosecute, I might give up ACOG to be the "good guy", but only if eBay offers some kind of compensation.
Was it a navy lawyer or an NCIS agent? I got and email from and NCIS agent last year and before I could read it a warning screen came up and I had to click OK or agree or something to that affect. Did you get something like that?
If it turns out to be legit then there is no “might” give it up. If it is stolen property it’s not yours. Even if you paid for it.
I too would not trust this email. When they come to the door with a badge...maybe.
Seriously, shouldn't formal communication be involved here as well as badged personnel for interviewing and if necessary, evidence collection and/or recovery?
+1... email sounds kinda fishy anyways.
Personally, I'd ignore the email. I'm pretty sure there's no law that requires you to check your e-mail. E-mail isn't like a mailing address, it's not as reliable either. For all you know it could be the original seller trying to fake you out so he can get his ACOG back. After all, he does have your e-mail address - right?
Was it a navy lawyer or an NCIS agent? I got and email from and NCIS agent last year and before I could read it a warning screen came up and I had to click OK or agree or something to that affect. Did you get something like that?
If it turns out to be legit then there is no “might” give it up. If it is stolen property it’s not yours. Even if you paid for it.
the OP isn't responsible for anyone else's sins, especially not those already a year old. even if the ACOG was illegally sold, it was legally purchased. they have no authority or right to demand it back, and he's under no obligation to cooperate, respond, or even confirm that he still owns it.
i'd delete, as well.
dmancornell
01-21-10, 22:40
A thread on another forum thehighroad.org (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=500001) is talking about the email. The email is posted there if anyone is curious, it is the same as the one I received, verbatim.
Any financial discrepancies that may
arise from this issue will be a matter for you to address with GM1
JAMISON and his attorney. Contact information for GM1 JAMISON's
attorney will be provided for you in the future.
in other words, "give it to us. and no, we're not reimbursing you. and you cover shipping, too."
If an item purchased by you does not contain a U.S. Navy serial number,
and cannot be fully identified as Navy property, than I cannot force you
to provide the item to us, however, we politely ask your cooperation in
rectifying this matter before us. If an item is ultimately identified
as U.S. Navy property, than its return to the Navy through us will need
to be facilitated.
if you "need" to do anything, let those instructions be issued through subpoena/court order. until you have one in hand, you're not required to do anything. don't let these guys con you out of your property.
You can’t legally purchase something that was illegally sold. If I was the OP I would check into this and find out if it is ligament. I would not be surprised if it was a scam. I would not reply to the email but call the base where the NCIS agent is stationed and find out If he is real.
If it is stolen, then the Government considers it theirs. Just like if you had a rifle stolen from you. You would not care if the person who ended up with had a bill of sale from someone at a gun show or not. You would still consider it yours.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
IT WAS AN EMAIL!!!!!!
Guys, seriously. Have none of you had any legitimate legal dealings before? Formal notices and/or requests are NOT done through email. I assure you of that. If it's real, an actual letter will follow. It is not your job to "follow up" on anything. Period.
This is of course if you are telling us the whole story. If you are holding something back or not being honest then, things could be different.
Seems fishy to me, but since the email seems to have a case number included it should be easy to check out with a phone call.
You can’t legally purchase something that was illegally sold. If I was the OP I would check into this and find out if it is ligament. I would not be surprised if it was a scam. I would not reply to the email but call the base where the NCIS agent is stationed and find out If he is real.
If it is stolen, then the Government considers it theirs. Just like if you had a rifle stolen from you. You would not care if the person who ended up with had a bill of sale from someone at a gun show or not. You would still consider it yours.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
"sale" and "purchase" are two totally seperate events that occur simultaneously and result in the immediate transfer of ownership of a single lot or item. it is perfectly possibly for an illegal sale/legal purchase transaction to occur- it happens all the time. the buyer executes the "purchase," the seller executes the "sale." one of these can be an illegal activity at the exact same time that the other is a completely legal activity. illegally sold, but legally purchased. and this is exactly why people are rarely court-ordered to return items they legally purchased that later turned out to be stolen, and it's were the phrase "posession is 9/10ths of the law" comes from.
yes, you'd consider it yours- but you'd be completely subject to the kindness and generosity- or total lack thereof- of the person currently in legal posession of your shit. same goes for the govt.
if your moral sensibilities extend to the federal government, who literally robs from you every day of you life, then don't let your rights keep you from a clear conscience.
This is what the Revised Code of Washington has to say about stolen property.
(1) "Possessing stolen property" means knowingly to receive, retain, possess, conceal, or dispose of stolen property knowing that it has been stolen and to withhold or appropriate the same to the use of any person other than the true owner or person entitled thereto.
Now if a person is informed that the property he has is stolen, that person now knows it’s stolen and is now “knowingly in possession of stolen property.”
This is what the Revised Code of Washington has to say about stolen property.
(1) "Possessing stolen property" means knowingly to receive, retain, possess, conceal, or dispose of stolen property knowing that it has been stolen and to withhold or appropriate the same to the use of any person other than the true owner or person entitled thereto.
Now if a person is informed that the property he has is stolen, that person now knows it’s stolen and is now “knowingly in possession of stolen property.”
but the burden of proof is still on the alleged victim.
Title 18, United States Code, Section 641
Whoever embezzles, steals, purloins, or knowingly converts to his
use or the use of another, or without authority, sells, conveys or
disposes of any record, voucher, money, or thing of value of the
United States or of any department or agency thereof, or any
property made or being made under contract for the United States or
any department or agency thereof; or
Whoever receives, conceals, or retains the same with intent to
convert it to his use or gain, knowing it to have been embezzled,
stolen, purloined or converted -
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten
years, or both; but if the value of such property in the aggregate,
combining amounts from all the counts for which the defendant is
convicted in a single case, does not exceed the sum of $1,000, he
shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one
year, or both.
The word "value" means face, par, or market value, or cost price,
either wholesale or retail, whichever is greater.
ACOG's have serial numbers. I would politely ask for the serial numbers of the units that they suspect were stolen and then match it with yours. Also, if he is a legitimate NCIS agent he should have email address that is like navy.mil or similar. You may also consider telling them that you want something in writing on official letterhead sent to your first, before you answer anymore questions or assistance.
Title 18, United States Code, Section 641
Whoever embezzles, steals, purloins, or knowingly converts to his
use or the use of another, or without authority, sells, conveys or
disposes of any record, voucher, money, or thing of value of the
United States or of any department or agency thereof, or any
property made or being made under contract for the United States or
any department or agency thereof; or
Whoever receives, conceals, or retains the same with intent to
convert it to his use or gain, knowing it to have been embezzled,
stolen, purloined or converted -
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten
years, or both; but if the value of such property in the aggregate,
combining amounts from all the counts for which the defendant is
convicted in a single case, does not exceed the sum of $1,000, he
shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one
year, or both.
The word "value" means face, par, or market value, or cost price,
either wholesale or retail, whichever is greater.
more specifically
Whoever receives, conceals, or retains the same with intent to
convert it to his use or gain, knowing it to have been embezzled,
stolen, purloined or converted
this line excludes him from the necessary criteria, as it was necessary at the time of receipt.
if you're one of our M4C LEOs, you understand how elements of a crime work- every word within the definition/description must be true in order for a violation of said law to exist. since the OP, at the time of conversion, had no criminal intent as defined by this law, he's not guilty of violating it. this law, as you've posted it, deals only with the act of conversion itself.
No, I understand the law completely. If you receive it, and keep it (conversion for use or gain), and you know it is stolen then you have met the three elements of this statute. The notification from NCIS is notice that said item is the property of the United States. Failure to return said item to the United States makes one guilty of the above statute.
Knowing conversion completes the picture of 18 U.S.C. § 641 by prohibiting all other deliberate wrongful uses of government property. See Morissette v. United States, 342 U.S. 246, 271-72 (1952), for a description of this broad provision.
Section 641 of Title 18 also prohibits receipt of stolen government property. There are five elements to the offense: the defendant must receive, conceal or retain; stolen property; belonging to the United States; knowing that the property has been embezzled, stolen, purloined or converted; and with the intent to convert that property to his own use or gain. See United States v. Fench, 470 F.2d 1234 (D.C.Cir.), cert. denied, 410 U.S. 909 (1972); Teel v. United States, 407 F.2d 604 (8th Cir. 1969).
At the outset, it should be noted that the conduct proscribed by this section is set forth in the disjunctive. Thus, a defendant violates the law when he either "receives, " "conceals" or "retains" stolen property. None of these words are terms of art and they should be given their normal construction.
The intent requirement of this section presents more serious problems. Prosecutions for receiving stolen property require proof of a compound state of mind. First, the defendant must know that the property he has received, concealed or retained is stolen. Note, however, that the defendant need not know that the property was stolen from the United States. See Baker v. United States, 429 F.2d 1278 (9th Cir.), cert. denied, 400 U.S. 957 (1970). Ownership of the property by the United States is simply a jurisdictional requirement and is not relevant to the criminal intent needed to violate the law.
The defendant must also act with the intent to convert the property to his own use. Thus, this offense is a specific intent crime. Proof of this intent, however, does not require evidence showing that the defendant actually derived some benefit from the property. This element is satisfied merely by showing that the defendant intended to convert some property to his personal gain. See United States v. Hinds, 662 F.2d 362, 369 n. 15 (5th Cir. 1981), cert. denied, 455 U.S. 1022 (1982).
The property encompassed by 18 U.S.C. § 641 is also defined in broad terms. Section 641 protects "any record, voucher, money, or thing of value of the United States or any department or agency thereof, or any property made or being made under contract for the United States or any department or agency thereof."
Generally, jurisdiction under 18 U.S.C. § 641 turns on the nature of the government's interest in the property which has been stolen. If that interest is sufficient, federal jurisdiction attaches; if it is not sufficient, the prosecution must be deferred to the state or local authorities. The question of whether the United States has sufficient interest in some property to trigger jurisdiction under 18 U.S.C. § 641 arises in a wide variety of factual contexts. Some of the most common situations involving this issue are described below.
Actual title in the United States is sufficient to confer jurisdiction, regardless of whether title coincides with physical possession. Determining when the United States holds title to some property in the possession of a third party frequently turns on the facts of the individual case. The following situations have presented the most difficulty in the past.
I'm thinking this is a scam. Here is another point to ponder. Wouldn't Habeus Corpus dictate that the Navy could not directly contact a civilian and that the navy would have to go through the FBI or other civilian agency to initiate the recovery process.
So until formal contact is made I wouldnt worry about this. However you may want to consider lawyering up now as a precaution.
I'd rather not paste the email because it contains personal information of the investigated party whom might not know that he's in the legal crosshairs.
So, you'd either like to protect a thief and be an accessory, or it's a scam all along.
An attorney would be the subject matter expert in knowing that personal details cannot and will not be divulged in the investigation of a case. It opens them to a real and justifiable lawsuit by the aggreived.
An attorney would NOT be the first point of contact to you, it would be the lead investigator who would have included a serial number. Expensive durarable goods are always marked in the military with numbers to authenticate who is legally in possession. Golly gee, try turning in the wrong weapon to the armorer and see what it get's you. There will be an immediate serial number inventory until all weapons are accounted. It will be the same with other equipment.
Buying military equipment from unknown vendors on a public auction site is very likely to include stolen and misappropriated goods - should you actually get them shipped to you. This particular event seems to be exactly what it appears, a scam to separate you from your property without even paying you.
Ok, ship it to them and see.
Lots of mediocre to bad info in this thread.
It is not at all uncommon to contact an e-buyer of stolen goods via email for the first contact. It's especially common when there are multiple buyers. It is the most readily available information, is less expensive, and usually faster. There are other reasons it might be done as well, but won't be posted for OPSEC.
Properly constructed emails will contain contact information with which they can be verified. Officer/investigator names, office info, case numbers. When in doubt, verify. If you're particularly concerned, google the agency and officer and get the contact info that way to see if it matches.
Such emails are intended to reduce the number of legal and procedural processes that would otherwise be required, and manpower hours, by soliciting the cooperation of the buyer in the preservation and collection of evidence.
It's not uncommon to withold the specifics of an article they are requesting. The agency may or may not know them. They may know only that the target of an investigation or prosecution had responsibility or access for a certain inventory list, and items on his ebay auction matched them. If it's a commercially available item, there is the additional possibility it was a legit transaction, but they are still obligated to investigate.
While it's most common to hear from an investigator/officer, an attorney may indeed make such contacts, depending on the status of the case. More likely, the attorney's signature block was added as a matter of their process/policy because its his case, and the letter was prepared by a para or an investigator of his office or another. That may also be done to satisfy a procedural or evidentiary rule.
Voluntary compliance is particularly desirable here as it also simplifies the matter of jurisdiction. If the case agency is an MCIO (in this case, NCIS), they have no jurisidiction over you individually. Your cooperation will limit the need to involve another agency of civilian jurisdiction. Though, that's less and less a big deal as many MCIO FOs have multi-jurisdictional liasions. (I believe there was also a reference to ICE involvement, too?)
If you received the email and don't respond, there is a high likelihood of a personal visit or a telephone contact with a local. You could pre-empt it, or not, as you wish.
Following notification to you that you are believed to be in possession of stolen property, you will begin to meet various elements of your own offenses.
In these cases, if you are truly an innocent owner, the liability of cooperation is usually limited to the loss of the investment you have in the article you purchased.
Based on what I've read here and at THR, I'd call them, see what they have to say, and determine the best course of action from there. This happens every day, and it not an unusual case.
Here is a copy of the email from thehighroad. I don't know if this is the same one that the OP received.
This is the web address of NCIS Southwest Field Office San Diego, Ca. A simple phone call will clear things up.
http://www.ncis.navy.mil/locations/southwest.asp
Dear Sir or Madam
If you are receiving this e-mail, than you have been identified in a
current criminal investigation as an individual who may have unknowingly
purchased stolen government property. Currently, an investigation is
underway by the Naval Criminal Investigative Service (NCIS) and the
Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) in San Diego, CA.
The investigation pertains to the theft and subsequent sale of U.S. Navy
property by a current U.S. Navy Sailor. Those receiving this e-mail are
not under investigation, are not considered subjects or co-subjects of
the investigation, and are not in trouble with the law.
If you are receiving this letter, than sometime since November 2008 (or
quite possibly before), you purchased from the online auction site
eBay.com, what is believed to be stolen military property from the
following individual and eBay.com accounts:
Name:
eBay.com account:
eBay.com account:
Per a confession obtained during the course of this investigation, all
items listed on the above eBay.com accounts, and sold by Gunner's Mate
Petty Officer First Class (hereafter referred to as GM1
) that bear an apparent military nature, are in fact U.S. Navy
property stolen from the U.S. Navy.
It is important that NCIS and ICE identify and recover all stolen
property pertaining to this investigation. These items are considered
evidence for all future legal proceedings, and are also U.S. Navy
property that ultimately needs to be returned to U.S. Navy units
residing in San Diego, CA.
These items stolen and then sold by GM1 , and quite probably
purchased by you, are numerous, and were advertised on GM1
eBay.com accounts under the following descriptions:
Insight M6X Tactical Laser/Light Illuminator
Insight M6X Tactical Laser/Light Illuminator Long Gun
Aimpoint Comp M2 FREE SHIPPING!!!!
Weapon Lights: Insight M3X A8
Trijicon 1.25-4x24 Accu-Point Rifle Scope TR21
2 Trijicon AccuPoint 1.25-4x24 Amber Triangle TR21
Leupold RX-IV Rangefinder
TRIJICON ACOG 4X32 WITH 7 MOA DOCTOR OPTIC RED DOT
Swarovski Optik STS 80 HD, 20x-60x eyepiece & Tripod
Trijicon ACOG TA01NSN Rifle Scope 4x 32
Trijicon ACOG TA01NSN Rifle Scope 4x 32
EOTech 553.A65 BLK Color HWS
EOTech 551.A65 Red Dot Sight
EOTech 553.A65- Tan Color HWS
Aimpoint - Comp M2, 4 MOA Red Dot Sight
5 Aimpoint - Comp M2, 1 EOTech 553.A65
3 Trijicon TR21+Mount, 3 M6X Long Gun
12 Trijicon TR21 Scope + LaRue Mount, 8 M6X 000-A17
Eotech Holographic Sight 551.A65 Weapon Sight
Eotech Holographic Sight 553 BLK 123A style Batteries
Schmidt & Bender 3 12 x 50 PM II LP Scope
Eotech Holographic Sight 553.A65BLK
Eotech Holographic Sight 551.A65 Weapon Sight
TR22: Trijicon AccuPoint(r) Rifle Scope 2.5-10x56
This e-mail asks that you please take the following actions:
Please peruse any records you may have retained in dealing with GM1
, and examine those items purchased from GM1 for a U.S.
Navy serial number. Contact Special Agent at the following
e-mail address: and notify Special Agent Colwell
of the item purchased by you, and a serial number-or any identifiable
number-located on the item. The U.S. Navy Serial number may be preceded
by the initials USN. Absent of a U.S. Navy serial number, please
forward to me via e-mail any serial numbers located on any items
purchased by you from GM1. These numbers are important in
helping to affirm those items stolen by GM1 from the U.S. Navy.
Once these items have been identified as U.S. Navy property, NCIS will
supply postage to you in order to mail these items to the NCIS Southwest
Field Office, in San Diego, Ca. Any financial discrepancies that may
arise from this issue will be a matter for you to address with GM1
JAMISON and his attorney. Contact information for GM1 JAMISON's
attorney will be provided for you in the future.
If an item purchased by you does not contain a U.S. Navy serial number,
and cannot be fully identified as Navy property, than I cannot force you
to provide the item to us, however, we politely ask your cooperation in
rectifying this matter before us. If an item is ultimately identified
as U.S. Navy property, than its return to the Navy through us will need
to be facilitated.
Should you not be able to identify what was purchased, when it was
purchased, and for how much it was purchased from GM1, please
contact Special Agent and he can provide that information to you
from records already obtained in this investigation.
For your records, and during future contact with NCIS, this
investigation can be referenced under the following Title and NCIS Case
Control Number (CCN):
Title:
Thank you very much for your assistance in this matter.
Very Respectfully
Honestly, the government would contact you with more specifics, besides that, the sailor the got arrested last year up here in the northwest, for selling ACOGs, had his investigation/case taken over by ATF not the NCIS.
Why would ATF investigate stolen Navy scopes?
Lots of mediocre to bad info in this thread.
It is not at all uncommon to contact an e-buyer of stolen goods via email for the first contact. It's especially common when there are multiple buyers. It is the most readily available information, is less expensive, and usually faster. There are other reasons it might be done as well, but won't be posted for OPSEC.
Properly constructed emails will contain contact information with which they can be verified. Officer/investigator names, office info, case numbers. When in doubt, verify. If you're particularly concerned, google the agency and officer and get the contact info that way to see if it matches.
Such emails are intended to reduce the number of legal and procedural processes that would otherwise be required, and manpower hours, by soliciting the cooperation of the buyer in the preservation and collection of evidence.
It's not uncommon to withold the specifics of an article they are requesting. The agency may or may not know them. They may know only that the target of an investigation or prosecution had responsibility or access for a certain inventory list, and items on his ebay auction matched them. If it's a commercially available item, there is the additional possibility it was a legit transaction, but they are still obligated to investigate.
While it's most common to hear from an investigator/officer, an attorney may indeed make such contacts, depending on the status of the case. More likely, the attorney's signature block was added as a matter of their process/policy because its his case, and the letter was prepared by a para or an investigator of his office or another. That may also be done to satisfy a procedural or evidentiary rule.
Voluntary compliance is particularly desirable here as it also simplifies the matter of jurisdiction. If the case agency is an MCIO (in this case, NCIS), they have no jurisidiction over you individually. Your cooperation will limit the need to involve another agency of civilian jurisdiction. Though, that's less and less a big deal as many MCIO FOs have multi-jurisdictional liasions. (I believe there was also a reference to ICE involvement, too?)
If you received the email and don't respond, there is a high likelihood of a personal visit or a telephone contact with a local. You could pre-empt it, or not, as you wish.
Following notification to you that you are believed to be in possession of stolen property, you will begin to meet various elements of your own offenses.
In these cases, if you are truly an innocent owner, the liability of cooperation is usually limited to the loss of the investment you have in the article you purchased.
Based on what I've read here and at THR, I'd call them, see what they have to say, and determine the best course of action from there. This happens every day, and it not an unusual case.
You're telling me it's normal to formally notice someone through email?! First notice, whatever that means to you or the OP, is different than what I'm talking about. I would never respond or follow up to an email containing legal content. Ever.
I've been in business a long time and have never (the absolute: never) seen this.
If a formal notice were to arrive following this email, I would pay attention to the fullest.
I'm now a lawyer, but when 50 government ACOGs are stolen and some even got exported I'm sure ATF was foaming at the mouth to get into the action and the Navy was probably more then happy to wash their hands of this.
"So until formal contact is made I wouldn't worry about this."
Sure, just so you understand, the next formal notice might very well be very loud knocking on one's front door at 7:00AM with several stern people demanding and making entry with the formal written approval of an impartial Federal Magistrate.
Could be scam, could be true. It shouldn't be too hard to verify the info in the email if any was given
You're telling me it's normal to formally notice someone through email?! First notice, whatever that means to you or the OP, is different than what I'm talking about. I would never respond or follow up to an email containing legal content. Ever.
I didn't say "normal", I said it was "not at all uncommon." I make a distinction between the two, some might not.
A first notice, or first-contact, would be different to me than a formal notice. Though, depending on the nature of the case and contact, it might be acceptable to formally notice (subject to definition) via email too.
I understand your position on email communications, and it's wise to be cautious or suspicious. It is progressively becoming more of a norm though as offices go paperless. Folks sending those do need to make sure such comms include pertinent detail for vetting and look legit.
I've been in business a long time and have never (the absolute: never) seen this.
Have you done much investigation and case management of internet crimes, especially of this type, and especially in recent years? That's not a poke...but certain folks would be more accustomed to this than others. I suspect there's also some regional and organizational differences, too.
If a formal notice were to arrive following this email, I would pay attention to the fullest.
Side line: The question that's being asked in a variety of venues, contexts, and scenarios, is... What is fundamentally different about printed correspondence arriving via post or common carrier, and one arriving via electronic source? What level of scrutiny should be applied to each? Should they differ? Why or why not? Why should one receive more validation on it's face than the other because of the medium in which the message is communicated?
NCIS or Navy JAG could have sent their message via USPS on letterhead. They could have sent that letter in a pdf attachment. Instead, it was what appears to be a main body message. The purpose of the contact was to prompt a return contact, not extract some other negative outcome. The goal was accomplished.
Certainly, an e-comm could come from a scammer in Nigeria. That's why folks need to vet the email, just as they would hopefully vet similar mail they receive too.
Glad it's turning out to be legit.
Here is were I base my opinion and why I think it is a bogus deal.
In the early 90's I bought items from a guy who had a table at the Ft. Worth gun show for what I thought was a good deal.. About a month later I get a phone call from a Army CID officer asking questions about certain items, he told me he was tired of calling people with the same name and was glad he finally got ahold of the right person, he said there was 7 other guys in Texas with the same name as myself.. and he had talked to all of them... I offered up all the info that I had at the time, and then he wanted to arrange a face to face meeting with me. Come to find out the CID officer told me that the items were being stolen by GSC personel and then sold at the gun shows.... he was a no bullshit kind of guy and I was glad I could help him out with is investigation.
No emails, just straight contact and no messing around.
threebanger
01-22-10, 19:42
FYI - having been through a two year long legal battle & starting another one (I can elaborate via PM if needed) that nothing & I mean nothing is done any other way than by some means certified physical mail. No phone or email or if it is it will soon be followed by a physical document transcribing such.
The email might by legit but if so it is nothing more than a probe. I'd request written documentation & a formal request (& don't worry because that is actually covering your ass in the long run).
Contact the source directly...
http://www.ncis.navy.mil/locations/northwest.asp
Northwest Field Office
Land Title Professional Bldg.
9657 Levin Rd., NW Ste L20
Silverdale, WA 98383
(360) 396-4660
DSN 744-4660
Subordinate Offices
The Northwest Field Office’s subordinate offices are also located in the Puget Sound region, they include:
NCISRA Bremerton, WA
NCISRA Everett, WA
NCISRA Whidbey Island, WA
Contact Information for Subordinate Offices:
NCISRA Bremerton
Naval Base Kitsap, Bldg 506
2240 Decatur Avenue
Bremerton, WA 98314-5255
Telephone: (360) 476-3650
DSN 439-3650
NCISRA Bremerton is located aboard Naval Base Kitsap across the Puget Sound from Seattle. The office area of responsibility includes southwestern Washington and Oregon. Major area installations, in addition to Naval Base Kitsap, include the Puget Sound Naval Shipyard, Naval Submarine Base-Bangor, Naval Hospital Bremerton, and the Naval Undersea Warfare Center-Keyport.
NCISRA Everett
Naval Station Everett
2000 West Marine View Drive
Everett, WA 98207-1500
Telephone: (425) 304-4300
DSN 727-4300
NCISRA Everett is located about 25 miles north of Seattle aboard Naval Station Everett. The office area of responsibility includes Washington State, east of the I-5 Corridor, and the states of Idaho, Montana, and Alaska. The Canadian border is approximately 85 miles north of Everett and requires no special entry permit.
NCISRA Whidbey Island
NAS Whidbey Island
975 West Forrestal Street
Oak Harbor, WA 98278-4400
Telephone: (360) 257-3359
DSN 820-3359
NCISRA Whidbey Island is located approximately 90 minutes south of the Canadian border aboard Naval Air Station Whidbey Island. The office area of responsibility includes the six northwestern counties of Washington and the five western provinces of Canada. The office primarily supports the Navy's electronic warfare squadrons (EA6B) and patrol squadrons (P3).
Buck's advice is correct. Contact the agency which is allegedly the source of the investigation and email. Ask for the case agent by name. If he exists, he can easily corroborate or deny the legitimacy of the email.
An illegal transaction has no valid legal recourse. It doesn't matter if one party is innocent. Sales of stolen property, from the law's standpoint, never happened. "Possession is nine-tenths of the law" sounds great, but the US Navy's one-tenth comes with a bunch of badges, guns, and judges.
If the item is in fact stolen and was in fact stolen from the U.S. government, then it still belongs to the U.S. government regardless of what anyone, anywhere, at anytime has done with it since. Furthermore, since the government is not responsible for the theft nor responsible for the invalid sale, it is in no way responsible to repay or reimburse any expense in the recovery of said item.
The person who sold the item to you, if he knew the item was stolen, is guilty of fraud (thought it may be called something else in your jurisdiction) and you could go after him through legal channels to recover your losses.
Finally, possession of stolen goods is usually only a crime if the possessor knows the items are stolen. As has been said, as soon as the government tells you they're stolen, you know... retaining possession after that point, then, meets all of the elements of the crime and exposes you to criminal culpability.
The OP on THR contacted NCIS and they confirmed the legitimacy of the email.
I would absolutely want formal correspondence that the investigation is legit. Tell them you'll absolutely cooperate and want to help, but insist on their assistance in helping you protect yourself from one of their wayward servicemembers. The Navy should have a list of serial numbers and if yours matches, I'd tell them to have a credentialed person come and pick up the scope. I would tell them to provide a recipt and request information about the seller, so that you can file a police report and sign a criminal affadavit against the seller yourself. Then you will have legal grounds to pursue the seller "if" he is in fact a Navy servicemember. You may be abe to work out a settlement with the sellers attorney or family in exchange for dropping the charges.
Without leverage, you have nothing. Currently, you have the scope and if you're forced to give it up, you need something in exchange. In this case, that would be information so that you can recover your losses.
Hope it works out and keep us posted.
for the OP:
Have you done anything to verify the story as outlined in the email? Seems like that might be a good idea.
Even though someone said the email was legit, before I sent off my ACOG I'd call and ask for something in writing and a way to get a receipt for its return to the rightful owners - the US Navy.
I'm sure our sailors will put it to much better use then any of us can.
What did you pay for it out of curiosity and whats retail on one?
Good Luck & let us know how you make out.
Also, if he is a legitimate NCIS agent he should have email address that is like navy.mil or similar.
He also has credentials and a way to verify them. Tell him to come see you in person and you can sort out whether you have stolen govt property once he's been verified.
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-23-10, 16:41
1. How many of us change emails, and how many of us would have had this tossed out by our spam filters? I find it hard to believe that they go from email to full breach as the next step.
2. Return shipping address in Nigeria?
3. Ask them what Bible reference is on the scope.
4. Just because someone posts that the emial was legit, doesn't mean that it is. How so? If you are running the scam, how hard would it be to run a false flag type series of posts on a gun forum.
5. I never saw if our OP called and confirmed the story.
6. So a magistrate is going to give a search warrant, but E-bay can't be bothered with the divulging of the details of your verified account so they can send a letter?
7.It would be nice, if the story is true, that a forum retailer could spot the OP a new scope with at least a service member discount, seeing as he 'bought one' for the Navy:)
ThirdWatcher
01-23-10, 17:00
This first thing I would have done was forward the email to spoof@ebay.com and ask if it was legit and I wouldn't reply to the email until it's legitimacy was confirmed.
The government usually sends you a letter, not an email. As Buck wrote, go to the source directly.
Ok.. Lets wait and see what the OP has to say after he contacts NCIS... Ill reopen the thread when I hear from him... Untill then this thread has run its course...
B
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