Riddle me this.

[SW-Shooter]

Not really a riddle.

Was North America or The U.S.A. ever a Third World Shit Hole?

In my understanding of history I say can no! Emphatically. There was always a form of community, culpability, and religion.

Why is it then that countries (like those in the news), seem based on a history of being just another TWSH? I won't mention which other countries nor on which continent, but there are a few that come to mind.

[rickrock305]

a lot of it has to do with slavery.

[SW-Shooter]

Slavery? Sounds like someones seeking reparations. I don't suffer from white guilt, my ancestry on one side is European, and on the other is good old fashioned Ohio Indian(a long way down the ancestry ladder). I've never owned a slave nor oppressed a people.

[Collegefour]

A working definition of TWSH would be in order to have a meaningful conversation on this....

For example, I could make an argument that "civilized Europe" in the 16 and 1700's would have considered "the colonies" as a TWSH that they could ship off convicted felons to, and rape for its natural resources as the mother country saw fit. Ben Franklin was hailed in France as something we might term today as a "backwoods country f**k" (no offense to any modern peeps who might live in the north 40!).

[bkb0000]

america was colonized by already "civilized," wealthy, established empires.. had it not been for that, the natives would have been on their own to develope and compete with europe, and America would be a "third world shithole" just like any other independent, non-european country today.

america had rich white parents.

[Dunderway]

Not really a riddle.

Was North America or The U.S.A. ever a Third World Shit Hole?

In my understanding of history I say can no! Emphatically. There was always a form of community, culpability, and religion.

Why is it then that countries (like those in the news), seem based on a history of being just another TWSH? I won't mention which other countries nor on which continent, but there are a few that come to mind.

We are a very large country. Mostly civilized, but it's not to hard to find at least one "TWSH" in almost every state. I have worked in a few of them that were worse than their actual third world counterparts.

[perna]

Vile, ignorant statements such as the first one here are an excellent summary as to why people hate America....


Slavery? Uhm it happened and yes people hate America because of it, many of which actually live in AMERICA.

[Outlander Systems]

Does Detroit count?

[rifleman2000]

Slavery? Sounds like someones seeking reparations. I don't suffer from white guilt, my ancestry on one side is European, and on the other is good old fashioned Ohio Indian(a long way down the ancestry ladder). I've never owned a slave nor oppressed a people.

You asked a question, and he answered it. His answer had nothing to do with reparations, or white guilt, or any of that crap. If you can't analyze the answer, maybe you should not ask the question.

America was never a, as you call it, TWSH. It was first started as European economic ventures that became very profitable, in a large part due to slavery. America, in its early days, was a burgeoning frontier, prosperous and expanding.

Modern politics are making parts of it just as bad as some third world areas I have seen.

[Cohibra45]

You asked a question, and he answered it. His answer had nothing to do with reparations, or white guilt, or any of that crap. If you can't analyze the answer, maybe you should not ask the question.

America was never a, as you call it, TWSH. It was first started as European economic ventures that became very profitable, in a large part due to slavery. America, in its early days, was a burgeoning frontier, prosperous and expanding.

Modern politics are making parts of it just as bad as some third world areas I have seen.


I will have to take exception to this statement. Slavery played a part, but it was our fantastically rich natural resources and abundant fertile lands that made America the land that people killed over.

Having grown up in the 'South', most homes couldn't afford slaves. Our family was very poor from 'Scots-Irish' descent as were most of the settlers in the Appalachia's. We eked out a living and so did out neighbors.

Slavery was abused by big agriculture and big business. It was just like big business vs the small independent business. Slavery has not been in use for over 150 years here in America!!!!!!! Let it go!!!!!!!!

If people can't, they should look very hard at Africa and Asia where it is still widely used/done today.

[rifleman2000]

I will have to take exception to this statement. Slavery played a part, but it was our fantastically rich natural resources and abundant fertile lands that made America the land that people killed over.

Having grown up in the 'South', most homes couldn't afford slaves. Our family was very poor from 'Scots-Irish' descent as were most of the settlers in the Appalachia's. We eked out a living and so did out neighbors.

Slavery was abused by big agriculture and big business. It was just like big business vs the small independent business. Slavery has not been in use for over 150 years here in America!!!!!!! Let it go!!!!!!!!

If people can't, they should look very hard at Africa and Asia where it is still widely used/done today.

The OP's question referred to "ever", and I think that points to past history. It is very true that most people did not or could not afford to own slaves. But the money making cash crops were largely dependant on large plantations using slaves. I am neither condemning it or applauding it, just pointing out that our early wealth was in part gained by an industry that used a significant amount of slave labor. Granted, other sources of wealth such as fur trapping, trading, and ship building did not use slaves.

To answer the OP's question, NO, the United States of America was never a 3rd world country.

[BiggLee71]

Slavery? Sounds like someones seeking reparations. I don't suffer from white guilt, my ancestry on one side is European, and on the other is good old fashioned Ohio Indian(a long way down the ancestry ladder). I've never owned a slave nor oppressed a people.

I dont suffer from "white guilt". Anyone who does is a ****ing idiot. I didn't do anything to anyone to have "white guilt". The world is a ****ed up place and ****ed up shit happen's. Thats life. Humans have been teating each other like shit since the dawn of time. Why the hell should I have guilt about something someone else did 300 years ago??? I have my own, real world problems to solve and I certainly to not have the time nor inclination to buy into some line of bullshit.

[BiggLee71]

[QUOTE=Terminal Effect;552173]Vile, ignorant statements such as the first one here are an excellent summary as to why people hate America....



Europe owes America a huge debt of gratitude. You'd all be speaking Russian if it wasn't for America!!

[LockenLoad]

You asked a question, and he answered it. His answer had nothing to do with reparations, or white guilt, or any of that crap. If you can't analyze the answer, maybe you should not ask the question.

America was never a, as you call it, TWSH. It was first started as European economic ventures that became very profitable, in a large part due to slavery. America, in its early days, was a burgeoning frontier, prosperous and expanding.

Modern politics are making parts of it just as bad as some third world areas I have seen.

If slavery made us so great, why was the north richer, more manufacturing, better railroads, the south was underdeveloped, and it's only resource was tobacco and cotton. I guess if U believe that tobacco and cotton kept us from being a TWSH, u could make that argument.:rolleyes:

[LockenLoad]

Vile, ignorant statements such as the first one here are an excellent summary as to why people hate America....

Take a minute to reflect on your TWSH theory. Given the fact that 100,000+ Haitans are dead, you might want to take a minute to reflect on the after-taste your statement leaves.

There are even places in the USA that qualify as TWSH, from a European's perspective.

Really and everything is perfect in Europe, I am sure you guys have modernized all of Eastern Europe, at your expense of course, please come and show us how great you are, how many Haitians is Germany taking in, how many euros have you thrown at Haiti?

[SW-Shooter]

Vile, ignorant statements such as the first one here are an excellent summary as to why people hate America....

Take a minute to reflect on your TWSH theory. Given the fact that 100,000+ Haitans are dead, you might want to take a minute to reflect on the after-taste your statement leaves.

There are even places in the USA that qualify as TWSH, from a European's perspective.


Have you ever contemplated that natural disasters are natures way of culling the heard? Over population is plaguing parts of the world that cannot sustain such numbers.

While I do feel sympathy, I think forces are at work here. You cannot sustain life, plagued with corruption,........ cleansing will follow. The world needs an enema, I doubt you could disagree.

[Gutshot John]

If memory serves First and Second world economies are industrialized, the only difference being capitalism or communism. Third World economies are agriculture based.

Given that the US was founded well before the industrial revolution in Europe ~1780 (it came to the US ~1820) and was primarily an agricultural economy until the 20th yes the US can be considered to have been third world economy at some point, more significantly many Presidents (Jefferson) didn't want an industrial/capitalist economy.

All told the distinction is ahistoric since the terms 1st, 2nd and 3rd world weren't used until the Annales Schools of the 1950s.

[thopkins22]

At this rate you should just wait a decade or two and you'll get to experience America the third world country.

I'm not sure how religion and community are somehow exclusive to developed countries.

[rickrock305]

Slavery? Sounds like someones seeking reparations. I don't suffer from white guilt, my ancestry on one side is European, and on the other is good old fashioned Ohio Indian(a long way down the ancestry ladder). I've never owned a slave nor oppressed a people.



reparations and white guilt? :rolleyes:


you can't deny that a big part of America's prosperity is due in large part to slavery.

[Gutshot John]

you can't deny that a big part of America's prosperity is due in large part to slavery.

Actually you can. The overwhelming majority of America's wealth was generated long after the Civil War ended. Nevermind that most of that wealth was generated in the North.

Sorry try again.

[rickrock305]

ok, all that free labor had NOTHING to do with it. :rolleyes:

[Gutshot John]

ok, all that free labor had NOTHING to do with it. :rolleyes:

After the destruction of billions (if not trillions in today's dollars) in property during the Civil War, primarily in the South that was a slave economy, any benefit of free labor due to slaves pretty much went up in smoke...literally.

By comparison the wealth created in the North due to industry and banking dwarfs that created by slave labor.

[rickrock305]

First point, slavery in the North was not uncommon

Second, a great deal of that industry and banking up north was a result of slave labor in the south. For example, the textile industry, built from cotton harvested by slaves. Or the banking industry, kept healthy from wealthy slave owners and traders. NYC was a hub of slave trading.

[thopkins22]

ok, all that free labor had NOTHING to do with it. :rolleyes:

Absolutely not. As Gutshot John has already pointed out, the most prosperous time in our nation's entire history was AFTER the civil war.

Slavery wasn't even a particularly smart way to make money BEFORE the farming techniques that came about during that period(and certainly not after.) You wind up with workers who lack motivation, and whom you still have to dress, house, and feed.

ETA: Not directed at you in particular, but all this "400 year head start" horse malarkey is wearing me thin.

[rickrock305]

this is pure comedy :D

[Gutshot John]

First point, slavery in the North was not uncommon

It existed, but it wasn't common...especially by the time of the Civil War there were only a handful of "northern" states that allowed it and even then not a single northern state, even in the 18th century, could be considered a slave economy.


Second, a great deal of that industry and banking up north was a result of slave labor in the south. For example, the textile industry, built from cotton harvested by slaves. Or the banking industry, kept healthy from wealthy slave owners and traders. NYC was a hub of slave trading.

I'm sorry but you don't know what you're talking about. You're making stuff up. The slave trade ended in NYC DECADES before the war in fact I've seen stats that there wasn't a single slave in NY in the 1850s. Constitutionally the external slave trade ended in 1808. Internal trade was abolished in Washington DC in 1850.

Most of that economic growth occurred well after the war ended and there was no more slavery (most of that didn't even occur until the 20th century). More significantly if what you said was true Northern banks would have been impoverished by the result of losing all that money.

You're waaaaaay overstating your case.

Try again.

[thopkins22]

this is pure comedy :D

I assume you're talking about your view of history and demographics.:rolleyes:

Slavery wasn't uncommon in the north? Slavery wasn't "common" in the south...as in <5% of white citizens in the south owned slaves.

My family owned slaves...why am I not rich if it was the key to prosperity? Nobody here is defending the institution of slavery...just pointing out that it sure as hell didn't make us a rich country. We became a rich country DESPITE slavery. Hell look at all the other countries that had slaves...why aren't they all wealthy as a function of it?

[bkb0000]

slave labor is an indication that a system isnt working right. southern slave-operated agriculture was actually not a very profitable market. the margin was so slim, most plantation owners were far from "rich." they were certainly a lot better off than most low-class people, but their only wealth was the land they owned and the slaves that worked it.

this is why the south had strong leadership during the war- the eldest son inherited the plantation, while the younger sons would go to military school and become officers. there wasn't enough wealth to support large families living on a single plantation, generally speaking.

[khc3]

Vile, ignorant statements such as the first one here are an excellent summary as to why people hate America....

Take a minute to reflect on your TWSH theory. Given the fact that 100,000+ Haitans are dead, you might want to take a minute to reflect on the after-taste your statement leaves.

There are even places in the USA that qualify as TWSH, from a European's perspective.

Are you denying the existence of TWSH's? or just bemoaning the acknowledgment of their existence?

And what does a natural disaster have to do with acknowledging the existence of TWSH's?

Your post was so full of silly righteous indignation, I actually laughed.

[Gutshot John]

this is why the south had strong leadership during the war- the eldest son inherited the plantation, while the younger sons would go to military school and become officers. there wasn't enough wealth to support large families living on a single plantation, generally speaking.

Dude I'm seriously impressed.

Almost no one knows about the problems of inheritance in the South.

Did you get that from Greene?

[Spiffums]

Slavery? Uhm it happened and yes people hate America because of it, many of which actually live in AMERICA.

Do they hate Rome or Egypt too?

Old America (as opposed to modern where is my check America) was always striving to become better. We had a drive to be free and do our own thing. If we had remained 13 colonies.......... we would be a shit hole.

[bkb0000]

Dude I'm seriously impressed.

Almost no one knows about the problems of inheritance in the South.

Did you get that from Greene?

it's possible my American History professors did, which is where i would have learned about it.

not having much luck googling for him (her?)- have a full name and published works i can search for?

[Gutshot John]

it's possible my American History professors did, which is where i would have learned about it.

not having much luck googling for him (her?)- have a full name and published works i can search for?

Pursuits of Happiness by Jack Greene

There is another book by another author that escapes me right now. Perhaps Richard Beeman or Ira Berlin.

[rifleman2000]

If slavery made us so great, why was the north richer, more manufacturing, better railroads, the south was underdeveloped, and it's only resource was tobacco and cotton. I guess if U believe that tobacco and cotton kept us from being a TWSH, u could make that argument.:rolleyes:

Slavery did not make us great. And I am discussing the colonial period, not beyond that.

The colonies first source of revenue was agriculture and fur trading. Later on, fishing and ship building in the north, in addition to trade brought in more wealth.

America, and the United States was never a 3rd world country. A 3rd world country lacks resources, infrastructure, and capacity for self-advancement. At worst, the United States was a 2nd, or developing country. The term 3rd world did not come around until the cold war anyway.

[Gutshot John]

A 3rd world country lacks resources, infrastructure, and capacity for self-advancement.

Virtually every country has some form of natural resources. 3rd world economies often have ample resources (see the Middle East) they just lack the means to develop them without foreign investment. They are also heavily dependent on agriculture for sustenance and trade (see Central America). The US was dependent on foreign investment for decades to develop their resources. The first real infrastructure project of the United States was the Erie Canal about 40 years after the Revolution.


At worst, the United States was a 2nd, or developing country.

2nd World economies are defined by socialism/communism. We were never a socialist/communist economy.

1st World is defined by things such as industry and banking. Shipbuilding etc doesn't necessarily qualify as "industry" since it didn't include large amounts of capital until you start getting into the metal/steam age...only raw material and labor. Until the Revolution (and for a long time after) Americans relied primarily on British banks since there was no indigenous form that could provide adequate guarantees until the 19th century.

The US wasn't primarily an industrial economy until the turn of the 19th/20th century.

Fur trading was never really the basis for the English economies, it existed but was primarily the French that trapped/traded and by the mid-18th century they also were switching to agriculture. Agriculture/plantations were the motivation for permanent settlement.