View Full Version : Okay pistol experts...if you had to buy a full-size, steel 9mm?
misanthropist
01-24-10, 23:36
Most of the guns I see talked about here are poly-framed, and that's fine with me.
I've been happy with my Glock and would also buy an MP9 and not think twice about it.
But I am kind of shopping for someone else now...someone who would only accept an all-steel (maybe aluminum & steel) gun.
My immediate thought was an SP01 of some sort...but the recent thread on "why not CZs?" has me thinking twice.
And I see SIGs have apparently started to take a hit in the QC department as well.
A BHP would probably have all the same issues as a CZ, only worse.
A Tanfoglio...well, that's out of my price range anyway, and my impression is that I'd be better off with a CZ.
I was kind of kicking around the idea of a S&W 59xx series...but shot a 5946 the other day and wow, didn't care for that much.
I would consider a 9mm 1911, but STI is the first name that comes to mind and I haven't seen a lot of positive STI talk here.
And I have known too many US servicemen to buy a Beretta.
At this point I think I'm getting past the obvious choices and I'm into the oddball stuff...somebody up here is talking about importing Bersa Thunder 9s but man, that feels like "out on a limb" country to me.
I feel like I'm running out of options...maybe the CZ is the best way to go with the limitations I have? I was actually starting to wonder if I could have the slide on an MP9 sandblasted to look more "steely" and sneak it past the person...but I think she would pick up on the plastic "feel" right away and be turned off of the gun.
So if you were forced to abandon poly-framed guns and you wanted a full-size 9mm handgun which would primarily be for defensive use, with no specific competition requirements, what would you go with? It is not a "first gun" kind of situation...this is for someone with a moderate amount of shooting time in - maybe five hundred to a thousand rounds a year on average, say - and ready access to regular pistol training.
HK P7! :D
not sure if that's exactly what you're looking for.. but they sure are sweet.
lethal dose
01-24-10, 23:47
the hk usp is sweet, so are the beretta 92 and m9 models.
If you go through the gamut of metal-framed current production pistols and find them all wanting, perhaps it's time to reconsider the purchase of a metal-framed pistol.
misanthropist
01-24-10, 23:55
HK P7! :D
not sure if that's exactly what you're looking for.. but they sure are sweet.
Too weird! No, I might consider that one...but it sure trips my weird meter.
I thought the USP was polymer framed though?
yallknowho
01-25-10, 00:01
I would love to own a p7. Unfortunately they are too expensive for me to own and not use at this point.
I would check out one of the new E series Sig pistols for sure.
The CZ-75 SP-01 is a great shooting and feeling gun, however ive only put about 4k rnds through mine and it has held up great, typical maintenance and no malfunctions. We'll see how it goes after about 10k rnds or so.
lethal dose
01-25-10, 00:06
Too weird! No, I might consider that one...but it sure trips my weird meter.
I thought the USP was polymer framed though?
my apologies... i didn't pay much attention to your requirements. todd made a good point... however, if you are dead set on a large METAL frame pistol... i would look into a beretta. i have been shooting beretta pistols for years and i love them. when you shoot one, there is just a feeling of refinement going on. with this being said... i don't like to tell people what they should buy as far as actual firearms go and, rarely, will i ask others what i should buy. it's what fits you best. i could tell you all day what firearm you should buy and what's the best, but my statements would have no validation because i believe in shooter preference. i'm just saying: go shoot a beretta and see if you like it. ;)
30 years ago I had a S&W 659, I don't really feel like going back to the past, firearms have gotten so much better since then.
Rayrevolver
01-25-10, 00:21
How about a used Sig? S&W TSW?
I love the Beretta, and after I did a little work and replaced some parts, my Kimber 1911 in 9mm runs great. I would not recommend the latter unless you are willing to fix something.
A used, West German Sig 228 or 226 is a very, very good option.
What makes you think that the BHP "would have the same issues as the CZ?"
misanthropist
01-25-10, 00:30
If you go through the gamut of metal-framed current production pistols and find them all wanting, perhaps it's time to reconsider the purchase of a metal-framed pistol.
Well, if it were a pistol for me, that is exactly what I would do...however the person I am shopping for is less flexible than I am on this point.
As I recall, the SIG P Series, like the Berettas all have alloy frames with the exception of the P220 Stainless and that isn't a 9mm. The OP is looking for a steel framed 9mm, not sure why.
misanthropist
01-25-10, 00:34
I love the Beretta, and after I did a little work and replaced some parts, my Kimber 1911 in 9mm runs great. I would not recommend the latter unless you are willing to fix something.
A used, West German Sig 228 or 226 is a very, very good option.
What makes you think that the BHP "would have the same issues as the CZ?"
I will look into an older Sig, maybe.
I am far from an expert on pistol design...the BHP and the CZ75 always struck me as similar pistols but maybe that is a poor assessment?
misanthropist
01-25-10, 00:34
As I recall, the SIG P Series, like the Berettas all have alloy frames with the exception of the P220 Stainless and that isn't a 9mm. The OP is looking for a steel framed 9mm, not sure why.
I think alloy would be an acceptable alternative...the requirement is more aesthetic than anything else but since the gun would be a present I don't feel I can impose my practical ideas on the recipient.
So if you were forced to abandon poly-framed guns and you wanted a full-size 9mm handgun which would primarily be for defensive use, with no specific competition requirements, what would you go with? It is not a "first gun" kind of situation...this is for someone with a moderate amount of shooting time in - maybe five hundred to a thousand rounds a year on average, say - and ready access to regular pistol training.
I'm no expert, but I have spent a night or two at a Holiday Inn.
I like the Browning Hi-Power/FN P35.
The HK P7 is a neat, well balanced and very unique pistol. It's worth looking at just to say you did.
I will look into an older Sig, maybe.
I am far from an expert on pistol design...the BHP and the CZ75 always struck me as similar pistols but maybe that is a poor assessment?
From a mechanical standpoint, they have little to nothing in common (that the two don't share with many other handguns).
The biggest thing is appearance.
misanthropist
01-25-10, 00:47
Well, I'm not going to pretend I knew that when I got up this morning. I guess I knew even less about the BHP than I thought. I have never shot one, frankly, and only handled them in the gun shop.
So I guess there is no reason to attribute similar problems to them after all.
beretta, taurus PT series(which I would take over the beretta based only on the safety) and the ruger p seires are all that come to my mind at the moment.
There are many differences between some of the pistols that you are considering. The 1911 is a single action pistol with, generally, a fairly light trigger that is carried in condition 1. A 1911's safeties and trigger is not very similar to your Glock, but an accurate 1911 is a joy to shoot. I carry a 1911 daily.
If I were forced to chose a steel-framed 9mm pistol, I would chose my P7M8, since my 1911 pistols are in .45ACP. Regardless, I prefer the 1911 to the P7M8. Regarding STI, I have an older STI Lawman in .45, and the pistol is very accurate and has been very reliable. I prefer my Wilson, Les Baers, and custom pistols, but I think STI produces very good pistols, especially for the price. Notwithstanding, there have been some very good deals on used Baers, which, IMO, are excellent pistols. A BHP is also an excellent choice.
My vote is a .40 cal BHP chambered for 9mm.
I would love to own a p7. Unfortunately they are too expensive for me to own and not use at this point.
I picked up a used B grade PSP last year for $625. I didn't keep it, but I wanted to play with one for a bit and say I'd owned one.
the_fallguy
01-25-10, 02:28
But I am kind of shopping for someone else now...someone who would only accept an all-steel (maybe aluminum & steel) gun.
Why would you help a friend handicap their self with prejudice or pre-conceived notions?
FromMyColdDeadHand
01-25-10, 02:30
Sig X-5, I have a Tactical. Hand made in Germany for hopefully less QC issues. SAO trigger , though there are DA/SA versions also.
Have you tried a HK P30. Might give the feel you are looking for.
Don't discount STIs. A STI Tactical in 9mm with a 5 inch barrel is going to be really soft shooting. Just don't get the mags dirty and dusty- that is the one thing that I've seen everyone agree will get the gun to not run well.
Most of the guns I see talked about here are poly-framed, and that's fine with me.
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So if you were forced to abandon poly-framed guns and you wanted a full-size 9mm handgun which would primarily be for defensive use, with no specific competition requirements, what would you go with? It is not a "first gun" kind of situation...this is for someone with a moderate amount of shooting time in - maybe five hundred to a thousand rounds a year on average, say - and ready access to regular pistol training.
I'd smile as I'm an unabashed fan of 1911s. :p I'd also consider a Sig P226R and either have the SRT trigger installed or opt for one of the "Elites" with the beavertail which comes with the SRT trigger assembly.
BHPs are nice but I get hammer bite and they could use some trigger work. A beavertail would help but that then gets rather costly. I have seen alternative hammers though. It could also use some checkering - thin skateboard tape would do the job I think.
If the gun is going to be a present then I would go with a Browning P-35 Hi-Power. The first real double stack 9mm, the basis from which all others have followed.
My CZ 75 has performed well since 1991. I replace springs regularly and keep it well lubed [it has full length rails]. It was converted to SA only about five years ago using CZ-USA parts. Six years ago I replaced the extractor spring, four years ago I replaced the very worn sear. CZ makes a factory single action version now.
My '86 Beretta 92F has begun it's 2000 round trek. So far about 500 in, mostly in USPSA and IDPA competition. It is now caked in South Texas dust due to the last match which featured gusty winds and swirling clouds of sand. It will take all my self control not to clean it.
Used SIG's are all over and can be rebuilt. Tanfoglios are not expensive.
misanthropist
01-25-10, 09:25
There are many differences between some of the pistols that you are considering. The 1911 is a single action pistol with, generally, a fairly light trigger that is carried in condition 1. A 1911's safeties and trigger is not very similar to your Glock, but an accurate 1911 is a joy to shoot. I carry a 1911 daily.
If I were forced to chose a steel-framed 9mm pistol, I would chose my P7M8, since my 1911 pistols are in .45ACP. Regardless, I prefer the 1911 to the P7M8. Regarding STI, I have an older STI Lawman in .45, and the pistol is very accurate and has been very reliable. I prefer my Wilson, Les Baers, and custom pistols, but I think STI produces very good pistols, especially for the price. Notwithstanding, there have been some very good deals on used Baers, which, IMO, are excellent pistols. A BHP is also an excellent choice.
I used to carry a 1911 myself, when I lived outside of Canada for a while. I still enjoy 1911s a lot, I just do not have any experience with 9mm 1911s.
Maybe I will have another look at the STIs as well.
NCPatrolAR
01-25-10, 09:35
Steel framed 9mm? Smith 5906TSW, Beretta 92 (preferably a Centurion), Smith 3913TSW, Smith 5946, Smith 3953, etc.
misanthropist
01-25-10, 09:41
Why would you help a friend handicap their self with prejudice or pre-conceived notions?
I guess for the same reason that if I were really rich and had a friend who loved E-type Jaguars, I would buy them an E-type, not buy them a quick Acura and explain that it's really a much better car.
If you want BIG and dependable - go Berretta. If you want classic and functional go High Power.
You might consider a Jericho: Charles Daly Jericho (http://www.jericho.us.com/)
I've had a Baby Eagle for quite some time and it's a great pistol. It's not perfect or a super tuned machine, but it's rugged and accurate, with a decent enough trigger. I recently purchased an M&P and have started shooting it, but I still have a soft spot for the Jericho. I would have continued shooting it, but I wanted something a little lighter and a bit more serviceable for competition.
but I think she would pick up on the plastic "feel" right away and be turned off of the gun.
If this gun is for a female as your post implies, then you need to also consider the fit of grip size vs her hand size. Full-size Sigs have fairly fat grips. She may not be able to shoot it well because of that.
A single stack 1911 would have a grip more suitable for small hands.
My first duty gun was a S&W 59 series. I didn't like it much but I put a shitload of rounds through it and it was accurate and reliable. I've shot other 59 series guns and never had any problems with them.
My current duty gun is a SIG P229. I've put a shitload of rounds through it and it is accurate and reliable (.357 SIG though). The only thing I don't like about it is that it sits up high and it's heavy.
I don't know about the current crop of either of those guns. My Smith was issued to me in 1995 and it had been around a while before that. My SIG was made in 1998, I got it in 2005 and have put a few thousand through it in the past 4 years. Both of these guns and the others I've handled from similar time periods seemed to be well made.
I don't know if that helps but if a used gun is an option maybe look at one of those?
I don't know what US Servicemen you've been talking too, but there is nothing wrong with a Beretta, and as NCpatrol pointed out, the Centurion, is great. Do they still make them?
I carried a Centurion as a duty weapon for two years, with no issue's. The 92 was the former issue weapon at my current employer, and all the old timers speak highly of it.
You mentioned odd ball stuff, and I would specifically stay away from that. While its neat to pretend you have special needs, or are especially tuned in, to need this or that, your most likely don't. And, support for them becomes an issue.
For a defensive gun, I would not get a 9mm 1911.
For a metal framed 9mm, I would look at...
Beretta 92/centurion/Vertec(?)
Sig, 226/8/9
Browning HiPower(plan on spending money tuning it)
Kahr, the original was an all steel gun, not sure if that's still available
S&W 3rd gen. mixed reviews on these.
Bob
I would add a vote for a Mark III BHP.
West German SIG 226. Most accurate 9mm I've ever fired.
another vote for the Sig P226 awesome 9mm
John_Wayne777
01-25-10, 16:38
At this point in firearms history being anti-polymer is basically the same thing as believing the earth is flat. Some of the best researched, best engineered, most thouroughly tested firearms on the planet are polymer.
As for steel guns, I rather like the Smith 5906. If by "steel" you mean metal, the Sig P229 or Beretta 92 would be good choices as both perform well in LE/mil service.
RogerinTPA
01-25-10, 18:04
I had a S&W 6906 for years, until giving it to a relative as a birthday present. It was one cool weapon. :cool:
If your friend has a hard on for all steel and don't mind doing the "retro" thing, there are lots of folks online that can sell you a pistol from the 40's to today. Your friend sounds like my dad, if it ain't a 1911 in .45, it's a POS that hasn't stood the test of time, until he fired my 1st Gen G23 in the early 90s. Talk about him back peddling after shooting a couple hundred rounds of the then, mysterious S&W.40! But I'm with JW777. The modern polymer framed pistols are every bit as durable as an all metal handgun.
misanthropist
01-25-10, 18:09
At this point in firearms history being anti-polymer is basically the same thing as believing the earth is flat. Some of the best researched, best engineered, most thouroughly tested firearms on the planet are polymer.
As for steel guns, I rather like the Smith 5906. If by "steel" you mean metal, the Sig P229 or Beretta 92 would be good choices as both perform well in LE/mil service.
Well, I'm sure it's not a belief that steel is better...I know it's an aesthetic preference for metal guns, not a performance issue.
I guess not everybody hates the M9 but everyone I know personally who was issued one loathed it, and that does include some fairly accomplished shooters. But I guess it's got something going for it or it would never have been selected...still I have faith in the people who have steered me away from it.
At any rate there have been a lot of good suggestions in this thread that I will look in to. The gun is for a woman but she is pretty tall and hasn't had much trouble with the grips on many "average" double stack guns.
I will give her a look at some of the Sigs that have been suggested as well as a BHP, and probably a CZ as well.
I will also look into a 5906. I really could not go for the trigger on the 5946 I was shooting the other day and I don't think I could stick anyone else with it either!
But this has been helpful for me, thank you all.
Kahr, the original was an all steel gun, not sure if that's still available
Didn't think of that one. It's a really nice choice if large capacity isn't a requirement. Comfortable grip, great out of the box triggers and very accurate.
Purely my opinion:
BHP Mk III
CZ 75B
Kahr K9
I guess not everybody hates the M9 but everyone I know personally who was issued one loathed it, and that does include some fairly accomplished shooters. But I guess it's got something going for it or it would never have been selected...still I have faith in the people who have steered me away from it.
Not to belabor the point, well, I guess it is...
Ask these guys specifically what they don't like about the gun & why. Was it a worn out, poorly maintained gun? Bad mags? etc.
A good friend of mine, was a 1Sgt in the 101, when they had a private training company come in to train up the troops. It was made up of former tier 1 special ops types. My bud tells a good story about the M9 and these guys...
Instructor holds an M9 up in front of troops issued it, and asks what they think of it, grumblings are heard of "it sux", etc.
Operator then demonstrates, exactly what the gun is capable of. After training on the gun for the entire day, all TOP could hear was, "these are great", "I'm gettin one", etc etc.
My point, and I do have one, and it implies on this thread, this forum, and life in general. Sometimes, you need to find out the whole story. Many of us here, are recommending guns, me included, with little to the whys.
So while your friends, whom you have much respect for, don't like the M9, be aware, that alot of top guys, like them just fine.
On the Kahr, while I mentioned it, be aware that NYPD pulled them from the authorized list. Why, I'm not sure, and will check again with my bud on the job.
Bob
Failure2Stop
01-25-10, 19:45
If you can find one, the Beretta Vertec is a great pistol.
It eliminates the issues with the 92/M9, especially the issue with the slide mounted safety/decocker and turns it into a decocker only.
another vote for the Sig P226 awesome 9mm
..and another vote for the sig 226 (esp. w. german) or a 228 or a 229 or if you want a single stack, a 239.
The Dumb Gun Collector
01-25-10, 21:02
Sig 226
I love the BHP, shot one for years, but would not carry a cocked & locked auto that did not have a grip safety.
John_Wayne777
01-25-10, 21:32
I guess not everybody hates the M9 but everyone I know personally who was issued one loathed it, and that does include some fairly accomplished shooters. But I guess it's got something going for it or it would never have been selected...still I have faith in the people who have steered me away from it.
You must remember that the M9 is a military pistol...and the military methods for maintaining the weapon are, quite frankly, ridiculous. Underlubrication, overenthusiastic cleaning, and the parsimonious penny pinching practice of recycling M9 parts...parts that should not be recycled...doesn't help the M9 any. It's not as bad as many portray it to be. The 92's record in law enforcement has been very good overall.
The 96 I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole...but the 92 is a good gun.
The Vertec mentioned by F2S is, in my opinion, the king of the 92 pattern pistol hill.
An Undocumented Worker
01-25-10, 22:30
Already have the fullsize steel 9mm. I got a CZ75B in stainless. This is after putting just over 2000 rounds through my CZ PCR over the last year with no malfunctions. The PCR is a compact alloy version of the 75B.
Rightnow, I have 200 rounds through the 75B in its two weeks of ownership, and it has shown no signs of being any less reliable than my PCR that I use for daily CCW usage.
I also want to get an SP01 tactical so as to beable to mount a light to it, but that will be in 40 S&W.
crusader377
01-25-10, 22:55
My three top picks.
1) BHP in particular the BHP mk III
2) CZ-75B
3) Beretta 92FS
The 96 I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole...
Heard this before. I believe I was told there have been issues of frame/slide fatigue? That your experience?
Heard this before. I believe I was told there have been issues of frame/slide fatigue? That your experience?
I had a 96 and hated it. It was one of the hardest kicking .40's I've ever shot. Way more recoil than the 92 I had. I figured it had something to do with the lockup time not being long enough, because the slide isn't that light. Either way, I could definitely see how the components would get battered considering the recoil.
The three best current 9mm service pistols are the Glock 17, HK P30, S&W M&P; none of these use metal frames. If for some bizarre, illogical, irrational reason someone insisted on a less functional metal frame 9 mm pistol an S&W 5906, older Sig P226, or customized Hi-Power would all be reasonable choices, as might a CZ75 or Beretta 92FS.
misanthropist
01-26-10, 00:52
Well, I definitely appreciate all the recommendations.
My goal is to narrow it down to three or four solid choices and then have her try them out to see which she likes most.
I completely understand everyone who has said "steel is not better". I agree and I tried very hard to interest this person in a glock 17 or MP9.
But the fact is I am dealing with someone who irrationally prefers metal guns, and given that carry is not legal in Canada anyway, the odds of this gun being used for defense are not particularly high, so I am willing to deal with the performance issues with metal guns. It is a calculated risk and a compromise; I know that she loves all-metal guns and will shoot it more than she would a polymer gun anyway, and that probably offsets any performance disadvantage of the metal gun anyway.
I will give her a look at the 226, a BHP, a 9mm 1911 if I can find a good one around, a CZ75 and possibly an SP01. I believe the 5906 would be hard to locate up here but I'll give it a shot as well.
If it goes well, I'll let you know how it turned out. Otherwise I'll just fade into the background.
Sig 226ST is a winner in every way.
Sig 226ST is a winner in every way.
Except weight, it's one heavy gun. I ran one for USPSA for a while, retired it because my arms got tired.
I suggest an alloy frame these days, unless the person is extremely recoil sensitive.
I've carried an issued M9 in harms way. They are not junk, just a bit too large in the grip for true comfort. They are accurate and reliable. Would I rather have carried a 1911 or Glock? You bet. It's just a comfort thing with me.
As I recall, the SIG P Series, like the Berettas all have alloy frames with the exception of the P220 Stainless and that isn't a 9mm. The OP is looking for a steel framed 9mm, not sure why.
There are ST 226 and 229 models (stainless steel).
If I had to have a steel 9mm, that's what it'd be.
Except weight, it's one heavy gun. I ran one for USPSA for a while, retired it because my arms got tired.
I suggest an alloy frame these days, unless the person is extremely recoil sensitive.
I agree with you but the OP was leaning more towards a steel framed 9mm.
If you can find one, the Beretta Vertec is a great pistol.
It eliminates the issues with the 92/M9, especially the issue with the slide mounted safety/decocker and turns it into a decocker only.
That was going to be my recommendation
Too weird! No, I might consider that one...but it sure trips my weird meter.
I thought the USP was polymer framed though?
someone probably already answere this..
but anyway: before you discount the P7, shoot one, or at least hold one. also they're considered to be as reliable as glocks or better :eek:
someone on here works with a guy who goes through a p7 every 60,000 rounds or so.
they feel great, shoot great, and are quite safe inherently due to the squeeze cocker.
the USP is indeed a polymer gun...
i occasionally ask myself what steel frame 9mm i should get.. and i end up sticking with my glocks.. for whatever that's worth.
For a "steel" 9mm auto I would have said P226 9mm a week ago. But from the photos I seefrom this years Shot Show, SIG Sauer USA is going to change the extractor on the P229 so I don't feel strongly for the P226 as I used to. I have a feeling they might change the extractor for the P226 eventually as well. I am tired of gun companies redesigning their most reliable designs. What about parts 20-30 years from now? Or even 10 years from now? It certainly might make them harder to find.
So for me I'd vote for the Beretta 92FS. Its been produced in the millions, the US Military just ordered 450,000 more, Beretta has a factory who makes 'em Stateside, and so far there's no indication they plan to change the design. They'll either redesign it or discontinue it eventually I'm sure but given the choices we have today I'd go 92FS, slide mounted safety and all. This is the gun (along with the 1911) I know I can sock away for decades and if I have to use it, it'll likely have decent support.
For a 9mm 1911, what about the springfield EMP? Can anyone recommend it?
http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/spemp_010807/index1.html
here's a review.
Sig P226 and/or Sig P226ST.
[QUOTE=Ian111;553816]For a "steel" 9mm auto I would have said P226 9mm a week ago. But from the photos I seefrom this years Shot Show, SIG Sauer USA is going to change the extractor on the P229 so I don't feel strongly for the P226 as I used to. I have a feeling they might change the extractor for the P226 eventually as well. I am tired of gun companies redesigning their most reliable designs. What about parts 20-30 years from now? Or even 10 years from now? It certainly might make them harder to find.
How often do folks have to replace broken parts on their sigs? I've been shooting the same 226 for 25 years, replacing the springs, but nothing broken yet. If I break an extractor tomorrow & replace it, I will probably be drooling in a nursing home before anything else goes wrong. In 20 years I hope there is a better mousetrap we will all want anyway. Not to disparage the beretta.
misanthropist
11-19-10, 21:53
I doubt very much that anyone will be all that excited to hear how this eventually turned out, but in the end I bought a West German P226. I am going to run a thousand rounds through it myself just so I am 100% confident before I give it away, but that's how things ended up.
The gun is nice but I am personally struggling with the DA/SA aspect, and also I keep short-stroking the trigger. However the person I am giving the gun to does not have years of 1911 and Glock trigger reset muscle memory to overcome and I think they will be less bothered by this.
It's sure a solid piece of engineering. I can see why people liked SIGs so much before the advent of polymer.
Anyway I think it's a nice gift and I appreciate the advice from everyone here. I think the SIG was the right call, so thank you all very much.
You might try to find a Sig P210. Single action trigger with manual safety, and THE most accurate pistol I have ever shot. The only downsides are that the slide doesn't have a whole lot of gripping surface, the magazine release in Euro style, and it's a damn expensive collector's piece:
http://www.google.com/images?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hl=en&source=imghp&biw=1347&bih=660&q=sig+p210&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
I foolishly sold mine about 10 years ago, and would give a lot to get it back.
Overall all though, take Dr. Robert's advice. Steel framed guns are dinosaurs, and soon alloy framed guns will be too. Polymer framed pistols have proven to be the best overall performing pistols ever made, and they are affordable. Steel and alloy framed guns were at the peak of their design and materials when they were in competition with one another. With advances in manufacturing and materials science, the demand and competition for steel/alloy guns isn't there anymore......and no longer is there the quality that comes with those competing forces.
willowofwisp
11-19-10, 22:54
BHP or a hk p7m8
I vote Browning HP
Wouldn't classify myself as a pistol expert but here goes. Ditto for #1 choice. Berretta 92, 2nd. Springfield 1911 Target 3rd.
variablebinary
11-20-10, 15:18
Beretta or a custom BHP
Magic_Salad0892
11-20-10, 17:22
Beretta 92 Centurion would be my first recommendation, with the Vertec model being my 2nd.
But also consider.
SIG P228
SIG P225 (For single stack 9x19.)
I've actually been fiending for a Beretta 92 Centurion for a while.
Underwood 43
11-21-10, 08:47
My three suggestions would be springfield emp, para hawg 9,colt defender or new agent in 9mm.
Beretta 92 Centurion would be my first recommendation, with the Vertec model being my 2nd.
But also consider.
SIG P228
SIG P225 (For single stack 9x19.)
I've actually been fiending for a Beretta 92 Centurion for a while.
How fiending?;) I just added a Delta hammer, and ext. mag release to mine, along with a SF rail and light.
Its neat, but its no Glock or M&P.
Bob
i would go with a cz tactical or a sig. they are slowly working out the problems and are coming back.
Business_Casual
11-21-10, 15:49
My three suggestions would be springfield emp, para hawg 9,colt defender or new agent in 9mm.
Is this meant as a joke?
B_C
Cz 75, or a third or fourth generation S&W 5906 TSW.
Alpha Sierra
11-21-10, 16:17
CZ 75BD without a second thought
Magic_Salad0892
11-21-10, 17:11
How fiending?;) I just added a Delta hammer, and ext. mag release to mine, along with a SF rail and light.
Its neat, but its no Glock or M&P.
Bob
Oh you son of a bitch.
Pics?
Oh you son of a bitch.
Pics?
Ya know my ex said those exact same words:lol:
If I figure the pic thing out, maybe. Centurians were my duty gun for awhile, probably teh best 92 Beretta made for awhile.
I might be convinced to satiate your fiending though.:D
Bob
Love my SIG 228, probabley the only pistol i realy reget parting with.
HK P7! :D
not sure if that's exactly what you're looking for.. but they sure are sweet.
This is what I would get.
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-21-10, 19:30
HK P7M8
GermanSynergy
11-21-10, 19:38
Sig P210.
Magic_Salad0892
11-22-10, 01:11
Ya know my ex said those exact same words:lol:
If I figure the pic thing out, maybe. Centurians were my duty gun for awhile, probably teh best 92 Beretta made for awhile.
I might be convinced to satiate your fiending though.:D
Bob
:lol:
Is there a difference between the Centurion 92's and the Centurion FS model?
rjohnson4405
11-22-10, 11:09
We do realize the OP already actually decided and bought the gun right?
:lol:
Is there a difference between the Centurion 92's and the Centurion FS model?
As far as I know, only the barrel and slide length. Now that they have M9a1's and 92a1's, I'd rather have the rail and checkering.
if they made them in a Centurion lenght, that would be the shit, if i was still into the 80's guns, so I don't think/worry about it.
rjohnson,
So that means we can't still discuss the topic?? Thanks for letting us know how things work around here.
Bob
Magic_Salad0892
11-22-10, 21:21
Call me weird, I don't like rails on my pistols that much. :|
I understand ''what if you need a light'' but, I don't really foresee me ever carrying a light on a pistol.
If I have a flashlight, I have a rifle.
Check out the Sig P6or 225, single stack 9mm DA/SA they shoot great. Only downside is factory mags aren't cheap and if you get a P6 you can change the springs out so the DA is along the lines of the 225 and not a 30lb trigger pull that it comes with stock.
another fan of the SIG P6 here.
I highly recommend you pick one up. Great CCW pistols.
This is what I would get.
having spent some time with my p7, i'm going to take off the "not sure what you're going to do with it" part. It's the best steel 9mm. Also possibly the best CCW gun ever.
it's an anvil.
the heat issue at the range is easily solved with a wet paper towel.
cleaning is easy, and not nearly as important as many suggest.
Browning Hi Power for me.
rjohnson4405
11-24-10, 10:05
rjohnson,
So that means we can't still discuss the topic?? Thanks for letting us know how things work around here.
Bob
My bad. Just thought there was some confusion. Obviously I haven't been around long enough to tell anyone how things work around here.
The obvious mentioned ones:
--9MM 1911 Guns, including the Springfield EMP for CC.
--Sig P2XX guns, p6, etc
Yes, Yes the HK P7 is interesting and unique but I didnt think it great.
However,
The guns everone misses are the metal Walthers, the P5 (single stack) and P88 (double stack) are very nice examples of fine german engineering.
I havent seen a american designed/made metal semi auto that was compelling (let the flames begin!).
My CZ 75s have chugged along perfectly right beside Glocks in numerous courses. The only issue is that there is not much slide to grab.
platoonDaddy
12-01-10, 04:26
My Ruger P85 is a Bradley tank.
Magic_Salad0892
12-01-10, 05:31
Ruger P series?
Really, man?
platoonDaddy
12-01-10, 07:45
Ruger P series?
Really, man?
For sure mine has thousands of rounds down range without any failures firing every type of 9mm round, dang rugged & reliable.. With only 56 individual parts (of course less than M1911A1 & comparable models)
The frame certainly won't crack and is cast in aluminum alloy and hard-coated. The extractor is a proven design similar to that used in the Thompson submachine guns, and offers exceptional strength and durability.
For a full size tank, you can't go wrong with my almost 25 year old P-85 MK II
Edit: forgot to add it has a ambidextrous decocker & magazine release
Magic_Salad0892
12-01-10, 09:19
I'll take your word for it.
My experience with Ruger guns has been nothing but negative.
In my opinion the Ruger P89 is a bit of a hidden handgun value. It is the incrimentally improved P85, with subtle, but major improvements over its predecessor. I've had 3 of them, and my current one (a very late production 2007-vintage, right before the P89 was discontinued) has the benefits of the 2007 3rd Quarter Ruger Product Improvement Program, which was a massive in-house examination and overhaul of Ruger's manufacturing processes and techniques-mine is an absolute tack-driver, shooting 1" to 1.5" groups, with total reliability. The P89 is manufactured to the same MILSPEC criteria of the XM10 trials, which a former Ruger engineer told me that it actually passed with flying colors (but so did the Beretta M9, which meant no contract for Ruger).
I realize that this is dangerous close to heretical thought, but every time I seriously consider a DA/SA HK P30, I handle and shoot the P89, and think "Why?" and to date haven't come up with a compelling answer...
Best, Jon
R3V3LATIONS
12-01-10, 10:25
+1 to the 92fs. In my own experience and limited opinion, I have found 92fs parts, mags, etc. at greater availability, probably becuase almost every military, police force, whathaveyou has issued or been trained on it. making it good for SHTF situations.
Overall, and redundant I know, its accurate, lightweight in comparison, and available. Only problems are the stress fractures to the slide after about 10-12k rounds. but unless your in a warzone, with a 92fs only, shouldnt be a problem and that Berretta is no longer doing factory installed Night Sights. If my fantastic plastic ever angers me, its what ill get.
You have already got your answers...
If cash is an issue...get the CZ-75
If it is not, go with the BHP
Both are phenominal pistols and personally (If I was gonna carry a ladies round) I'd carry the BHP...:thank_you2:
I own three 92-series Berettas. They've all been great guns. For me, nothing else has been worth switching. I don't mind polymer frames, but I don't particularly care for striker-fired guns. Berettas have good triggers, good accuracy, good ergos (for my big hands, at least). Why fix what ain't broken? (I'm talking to YOU, Beretta, about when you discontinued the Elite and the SD models...)
Business_Casual
12-01-10, 19:04
What's with all the crap in this thread?
Extra power?
Muzzle flip?
Lady's round?
Knock it off.
B_C
I know there are a couple of people who don't like the CZ 75 on this forum, but i have to say that my CS CZ75 SA and CZ-85 have both been flawless and are the guns I most accurately shoot.
Magic_Salad0892
12-02-10, 01:50
Both are phenominal pistols and personally (If I was gonna carry a ladies round) I'd carry the BHP...:thank_you2:
Ladies round.
Lol.
Just out of curiosity... why a BHP when you have options like the Beretta 92, W. German SIG 226(or P6), and guns of the like?
What does a BHP really do that a Beretta can't?
If this starts to derail the thread, then I'll quit while I'm ahead.
What does a BHP really do that a Beretta can't?.
1) Conceal better - the M9 is a b-i-g 9mm
2) Work better for people with smaller hands - frame mounted safety usually trumps a slide mounted safety IMHO.
3) Customization is easier on a BHP - there are a lot of custom gunsmiths that works on the BHP - Cylinder and Slide, Novaks, Arizona Response etc.
The BHP is my favorite 9mm pistol.
-Tom
Magic_Salad0892
12-02-10, 03:23
1) Conceal better - the M9 is a b-i-g 9mm
2) Work better for people with smaller hands - frame mounted safety usually trumps a slide mounted safety IMHO.
3) Customization is easier on a BHP - there are a lot of custom gunsmiths that works on the BHP - Cylinder and Slide, Novaks, Arizona Response etc.
The BHP is my favorite 9mm pistol.
-Tom
I'll give you 1, and 2.
But not 3. Most M9 modifications can be made by the end user. Negating the need for a gunsmith altogether.
But the other advantages that the Beretta really has against the BHP, really mitigate the other two that you posted.
Fire_Medic
12-02-10, 09:00
BHPs are nice but I get hammer bite and they could use some trigger work. A beavertail would help but that then gets rather costly. I have seen alternative hammers though. It could also use some checkering - thin skateboard tape would do the job I think.
Some of the browning's have the serial number on the front strap so checkering is not an option.
Do not dismiss the 5906. It has one of the best and shortest resets for a DA/SA on the market still. It has a nice DA pull, equal with the the early non railed, milled slide Sigs.
Magazines are plentiful on the secondary market.
Do not dismiss the 5906. It has one of the best and shortest resets for a DA/SA on the market still. It has a nice DA pull, equal with the the early non railed, milled slide Sigs.
Magazines are plentiful on the secondary market.
I had a 659 a zillion years ago, a very decent pistol for its time. I recently wanted a no-bullshit, stainless .45 that would function flawlessly so I picked up a used 4506, a big ole hand cannon compared to what I normally carry size-wise.
Alpha Sierra
12-02-10, 16:37
What's with all the crap in this thread?
Extra power?
Muzzle flip?
Lady's round?
Knock it off.
B_C
Really? You own this place?
Hi Power or Wilson CQB 9mm
brushy bill
12-02-10, 21:09
What's with all the crap in this thread?
Extra power?
Muzzle flip?
Lady's round?
Knock it off.
B_C
That's nice...
QuickStrike
12-03-10, 05:13
Really? You own this place?
Nah, he just likes to compare this forum to TOS when people make jokes, have fun, etc... :D
Internets is serious business, and this forum is strictly an interactive technical manual on weapons. :sarcastic:
Edit: Thanks to this thread I have added the Beretta Vertec to the list of "possible purchases on gunbroker".
I'd buy another Sig P226 over any other steel frame gun I've shot.
Ladies round.
Lol.
Just out of curiosity... why a BHP when you have options like the Beretta 92, W. German SIG 226(or P6), and guns of the like?
What does a BHP really do that a Beretta can't?
If this starts to derail the thread, then I'll quit while I'm ahead.
The Beretta is a great weapon. The BHP has a long history of use in military and law enforcement. The main reason I suspose is it's an all steel pistol which I believe was the OP's question...the Beretta has an alloy frame and though techinally aluminum is a metal...it is not steel...unless I misunderstood the post...As for the 9mm comment...well let's not open that can of worms here...
I am not an expert, nor have I spend a few nights at the holiday inn, but I have wind-sheltered in the dumpster out back of it from time to time.
For my two cents, the Beretta, Browning, and CZ platforms have gotten a majority of the write up in here, and while we can all nitpick about their details each one is a proven and effective weapon - any would fit the need.
Some names that haven't been tossed out, that I feel are worthy of consideration are the Star and Israeli Military Industries offerings. Towards the former, Star was around for a long time and they put out a number of offerings, both good and bad.
Skipping past the "Jeff Cooper liked them" yadda yadda, I'll stick to my personal experience with the firestar line - in either 9mm or 45acp, (I have no experience with the .40 firestar) they are imminently concealable, very reliable, pleasurable to shoot, and you certainly do not get more steel than that. Heaviest compact/subcompacts I've ever handled, which contributes greatly to their handling.
On the IMI side, it's unfortunate that on this side of the pond the brand has been saddled with the burden of ridiculousity with the whole desert eagle phenomenon - CZ and Tangfolio had a beautiful child in the form of the steel Jericho's, in my opinion. I may be guilty of some bias in the area, since a Jericho was the first gun I ever owned, and the first handgun I'd ever handled.
Though I foolishly sold mine years ago thinking that a .40 Jericho would be easy to replace it with on the local market, (wrong) I still remember how pleasurable and accurate that gun was to shoot - excellent natural grip, with the ability to get the hands very high up the back strap, solid construction, and remarkably slim for a double stack "wonder nine." It's been awhile, but I don't remember it having a much more substantial hip presence than a 1911.
There aren't many steel forties or nines out there that I can think of which I would trade a Glock or M&P for, if I was looking for a go-to weapon rather than a collector piece, but the Jericho at least would qualify in my mind. Enough said on that.
Of course, they also make J-frames in 9mm, and you can find used 9mm SP-101s I do believe. :cool:
Edit: Read to page 3, and the post break - didn't catch the purchase post on page 4. Congrats on the 226, that's a heck of a gift to give someone.
jasonhgross
12-06-10, 08:31
This is what many of us would call a clue:
If you go through the gamut of metal-framed current production pistols and find them all wanting, perhaps it's time to reconsider the purchase of a metal-framed pistol.
I think most manufacturers have gone polymer. For whatever reason (cost savings, public desire, inherent design caracteristics). Doesnt matter, if they are putting all their R&D into building reliable polymer pistols instead of polymer metal ones, you would do best to put your money where theirs is. The only metal frame guns I would get are the M9 and Sig. Keep in mind though there have been allot of stories lately about QC at Sig, so maybe go with an older one.
not to sure but i want a beretta and love them.
that Berretta is no longer doing factory installed Night Sights.
Actually, they still do some - but they are very hard to find. I bought a new 92FS at a gun show last Nov 2009 with factory night sights. I also saw another last month at a large Houston gun show.
I am a big Beretta fan. I have 5 92 variants, and am looking to pick up 2 more. My 92FS with night sights is also my daily concealed carry. I have a "D" spring in it, and a skeletonized hammer.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g320/mistershipwreck/Beretta-set1.jpg
At the risk of sounding ignorant (I'm used to it by now) why aren't more people suggesting the Sig P226/229? I ask because I know nothing about the Sigs but am really digging the new P229 E2 for some odd reason. I'm not sure I'd want to carry it or anything but I am very interested in adding one to the collection.
At the risk of sounding ignorant (I'm used to it by now) why aren't more people suggesting the Sig P226/229? I ask because I know nothing about the Sigs but am really digging the new P229 E2 for some odd reason. I'm not sure I'd want to carry it or anything but I am very interested in adding one to the collection.
I sell guns frequently, because I lose interest or want something else, and need the money. I did the math and discovered that since I bought my 1st gun in 1993, I've owned 45 different handguns.
Out of all of those, I've owned pretty much every brand EXCEPT Sig and CZ. The two brands have just never interested me. I came close to buy a 220 ince, and I have looked at the new E2 Sig 226's with the thin grips. But, Sigs just don't fit my hand well, and I do not like the frame decocker.
Before retiring from the USAF and becoming full time LE, I spent about two years with the Berettas when they first were issued. Transitioning from a wheelgun (S&W Mod 15) was a bit of a challenge but my qualification scores were much higher with the Beretta and I always shot expert with it. They are a bit heavy and to me not the best weapon for concealed carry but they are reliable and accurate provided you do your part. I have also had limited experience with a CZ SP01 and absolutely loved that weapon. If I was going to buy another 9mm today and the 1911 platform was out of the picture, I'd go with the CZ hands down.
At the risk of sounding ignorant (I'm used to it by now) why aren't more people suggesting the Sig P226/229? I ask because I know nothing about the Sigs but am really digging the new P229 E2 for some odd reason. I'm not sure I'd want to carry it or anything but I am very interested in adding one to the collection.
Not sure I would buy a new steel framed 9mm, to many other options.
For the sake of argument, I would advocate p226. I have a early 90's West German, I think its your best bet. I got mine for ~$400.
Distant second, would be a Beretta 92.
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