View Full Version : Trigger Control
Ive been shooting for a couple of years now and ive come a long way since i first picked up a gun. Ive put alot of work and alot of time into working on the fundamentals of marksmanship. Ive taken classes from LAV, Rob Pincus(thanks again), and Todd Jarrett. Im also a LEO who holds that highest honor for marksmanship that his department awards(which isnt really that impressive). That being said....my trigger control issues have got me ready to jump off of a tall building.
I use dummy rounds for ball and dummy drills constantly and I just cant seem to get past the anticipation. I also dry fire religiously and can perform a perfect press all day without ammo in the gun....but when the time comes to load up, I blow it. I put so much time into shooting that luckily Ive gotten pretty good at pulling the trigger quickly without seriously disturbing my sight alignment. But that isnt good enough for me anymore. When I put bullets into my gun its like i lose the ability to perform a slow smooth trigger press. It might start out slow, but it quickly deteriorates into some kind of mutant el snatcho press.
Im looking for ANY advice that you guys have got. Seriously..... Any reccomendations, vetted witchdoctors, or herbal supplements are welcome and greatly appreciated.
Business_Casual
01-25-10, 14:06
I have the same problem, I think it comes from being a human and setting off an explosion right next to your head.
I can only recommend, as a fellow sufferer, that you A) continue with LAV and other tier one trainers that practice ball and dummy drills at classes B) use snap caps in your magazines at the range C) when you anticipate do remedial dry fire
D) Let me know if you come up with something that works better :D
Every trigger press is a chance to get it right. In my opinion, dry fire is better suited for specific manipulations like the press out, it has less benefit for anticipation because you know the gun is unloaded. You have to not know if it is a live round for there to be progress, I think.
M_P
You are not alone . . . ;)
Good to know....but its still incredibly frustrating because its STUPID!!! I know the gun isnt going to hurt me when it goes off, and I know if I smoothly press the trigger straight to the rear then the bullet will go where im aiming. Yet I cant do it!
I found the info and responses in this thread (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=38001) very helpful.
Good link, thank you. Todd G mentioned "crushing trough the end of the press" in one of his posts in that thread. That is what I am doing. And when I try and go slower and hit a dummy round its like I spaz out and pull the sights off target or dip the gun because I know the boom is coming. Ridiculous.....
Two points:
Ball & Dummy. Understand that B&D is for slow fire practice. If you're putting snap caps in all your mags while practicing rapid fire drills, you're going to think you're anticipating when you're not. There is a fine line between anticipation (bad) and post-ignition push (which is good). That fine line is indicated by the gun going *BANG*.
Trigger control is overrated. I know, it's heresy. But I regularly do a demo in which I slap the trigger as hard as humanly possible, bringing my trigger finger from all the way outside the trigger guard and smash through the trigger as quick and hard as I can. Normally, I hit within a few inches of my POA at 7yd. Why? Because if your sights are properly aligned, you have a strong 2-handed grip, and you don't anticipate the shot there really isn't an easy way for your trigger finger alone to overcome all the other muscles in your hands, arms, and chest that are keeping the gun on target.
Trigger control starts to matter when you're trying to be precise at speed up close (which I think is an important skill to have) or for longer-than-normal pistol distances (which I also think is an important skill to have). But anticipation and grip problems are the usual barriers to marksmanship for a lot of people.
Two points:
Ball & Dummy. Understand that B&D is for slow fire practice. If you're putting snap caps in all your mags while practicing rapid fire drills, you're going to think you're anticipating when you're not. There is a fine line between anticipation (bad) and post-ignition push (which is good). That fine line is indicated by the gun going *BANG*.
I only use ball and dummy drills for slow fire, and from what I can tell Im anticipating. I crush through the last bit of trigger press and cause the gun to dip.
Trigger control is overrated. I know, it's heresy. But I regularly do a demo in which I slap the trigger as hard as humanly possible, bringing my trigger finger from all the way outside the trigger guard and smash through the trigger as quick and hard as I can. Normally, I hit within a few inches of my POA at 7yd. Why? Because if your sights are properly aligned, you have a strong 2-handed grip, and you don't anticipate the shot there really isn't an easy way for your trigger finger alone to overcome all the other muscles in your hands, arms, and chest that are keeping the gun on target.
Trigger control starts to matter when you're trying to be precise at speed up close (which I think is an important skill to have) or for longer-than-normal pistol distances (which I also think is an important skill to have). But anticipation and grip problems are the usual barriers to marksmanship for a lot of people.
Im in agreement with you 100%. Like I said in my first post im actually a pretty good shooter considering my anticipation problem. I regularly shoot 3 inch groups at 7-10 yards while pressing the trigger quickly. And I can keep all m shots on Q target at 25 yards. Thats fine for PD quals, but not OK with me. LAV preaches 5-6 inch groups at 25 yards and that is my goal. I feel like in order to do that i need to be able to perform a slow perfect trigger press..... But I cant
EDIT: by the way im glad you showed up....Im seriously considering jumping into one of your upcoming classes in northern VA.
Sproggy -- Here is what I'm hearing so far:
You know what you're doing.
You know what you're doing wrong.
You know how to fix it.
All things considered, that's not a bad place to be. I'd simply recommend putting time into the B&D drill and little else until you're managing things the way you want. What gun, caliber, and ammo are you using?
You might also want to consider:
B&D strong- and weak-hand only. The SHO/WHO drills tend to put folks in a less anticipatory mindset because they don't have an expectation of keeping the gun locked still in space as it goes off.
Get better hearing protection, if possible. Folks with serious ingrained flinches are often sensitive to blast. If you're not doubling up (muffs + plugs) do so. If you're using low-NRR muffs with or without low-NRR plugs, upgrade to more protection.
Try shooting some close bullseye targets with your eyes closed. I know, it sounds crazy. But closing your eyes will eliminate performance anxiety related to marksmanship and will also let you really focus your attention on how your hands and arms are moving as the trigger is about to break.
geminidglocker
01-25-10, 16:20
I have trigger control issues with my Glock 26, I am definitly gonna' be following this thread. Takes a big man to admit he has a problem, especially in this subject.;)
Sproogy,
Trigger control is not over rated, it is critical, and the flinch is probably the hardest thing for a shooter to overcome. So don't beat yourself up to badly.
The advice you're getting on dry firing and working on the ball and dummy drill is right, however you need to take it back a step further, really focus on trigger.
You need to place a target at 5 yards and put a paster in the center. Then taking whatever time you need, get 5 rounds in the same whole. Yes 5 rounds in the same hole. When you can do that at 5 move to 7 yards. THIS IS CRITICAL--Relax the grip, relax the shoulders, relax the whole body. Don't muscle the gun, that will only give you problems, breathe, Then SLOWLY SQUEEZE the trigger, let it surprise you. Don't slap it, that's shitty trigger technique. It might work for fast shots, but it's taking away from overall proper fundamental.
You mentioned getting all your rounds in the Q target at 25 yards. You should be able to get all rounds inside an 8" circle at that distance. Trigger is what's probably killing your accuracy at that distance if you're like the average shooter.
If you can't perform the proper fundamentals at 5 yards, you can't expect to do it at 15 or 25.
How do you know you're getting it right, by shooting 5 rounds in the same hole at 5 then 7 yards.
You sound like you know what's wrong and how to fix it. So it might be mental. What I do to help me get away from MY trigger control issues is I talk to myself (silently) during the trigger press when going for real accuracy. I tell myself trigger, trigger, trigger. That helps me a lot, and I can shoot the 8" at 25.
Being sloppy at short distances will only get worst at longer ranges.
If you try what I just wrote and you take your time, stay relaxed, breathe, again stay relaxed grip too , really focus, and you slowly squeeze the trigger I guarantee you'll do better. When you start to see improvment, add a bit more speed. With time it will come together.
Just try it. You'll see.
R.
Not sure sure how well problems can be diagnosed over the internet...
Do you have the anticipation problem when you conduct slow-fire accuracy drills?
You might consider working accuracy and speed drills separately...ending sessions with slowfire accuracy drills. I only shoot as fast as I can maintain accuracy standards. If groups open up too much I slow down.
Also, can't you e-mail the instructors you listed? I can't imagine they wouldn't help a former student out.
John_Wayne777
01-25-10, 18:29
Trigger control, like sight alignment, exists on a sliding scale. Some of the top competitivde shooters out there have trigger control that is horrible...but they still get their hits. Just as I don't need a bullseye perfect sight picture to make a good hit at say 5 yards, I can sacrifice some level of refinement in my trigger manipulation in the interest of making faster shots.
Bullseye shooting is good for establishing a baseline for what proper trigger control looks like and 99% of shooters can benefit from conscious effort to develop excellent fundamentals.
Jay Cunningham
01-25-10, 18:42
I won't add anything to the good advice you've been given, but another good drill that might help you is Howe's "Five and One" Drill.
five dry fire shots
one live round
repeat x5
You will do a total of 25 dry fires and five live rounds.
Good luck.
Trigger control, like sight alignment, exists on a sliding scale. Some of the top competitivde shooters out there have trigger control that is horrible...but they still get their hits. Just as I don't need a bullseye perfect sight picture to make a good hit at say 5 yards, I can sacrifice some level of refinement in my trigger manipulation in the interest of making faster shots.
Bullseye shooting is good for establishing a baseline for what proper trigger control looks like and 99% of shooters can benefit from conscious effort to develop excellent fundamentals.
I would agree with this. But for training purposes and troubleshooting purposes, one should have the proper fundamentals down to get very precise shots. Then as speed is introduced we learn the amount of prefect sight picture we can sacrifice and still make the shot. But if you can't make a perfect shot with all the time in the world at 5 to 7y or further, you can't be expected to make the shot in more challenging circumstances.
Too many people think they're good shooters because they can shoot "double taps" at 5-7 yards, which any fool can do , so they don't work on the fundamentals or are unaware of the bad habit's they have. But now ask them to keep 5 shots inside a 2" dot at 5yards and they can't, or try to shoot a head shot at 15 yards, and they can't. Now go out to 25 and further and things get even more difficult. The target looks like it got shot with 00 buck instead of wiht a pistol. Making head shot at 15 or shooting past 25 yards is not unrealistic either. Ask the cops involved in the Hollywood shooting years ago. Their closest range was 40 yards. And none of this is including stress, add that and forget it, you're not hitting the side of a barn from the inside.
R.
Business_Casual
01-25-10, 19:04
Psst - um, dude. We already know all that stuff.
Maybe check out some past threads and such first. Don't get angry, I'm just saying I've stood next to JW777 at over a hundred yards making hits on a steel A zone while Larry Vickers runs the timer.
M_P
I won't add anything to the good advice you've been given, but another good drill that might help you is Howe's "Five and One" Drill.
five dry fire shots
one live round
repeat x5
You will do a total of 25 dry fires and five live rounds.
Good luck.
TK,
Any time limits on that?
Im in no way shape or form an expert on any subject matter but I do have a similar anticipation problem and I have a friend who ran this drill with me a few times and it actually helped considerably.
What he did was made me empty all of my mags and clear my weapon.
He then took a few of my mags and a few rounds and loaded every other mag with a round.
Not knowing which mags he loaded and which ones he didn't, he gassed it up and handed me my weapon. I got in the low ready and he gave me a fire command.
The drill helped ease the initial shock of the first shot and helped him analyze a plethora of other problems I was having.
We usually run this before running drills as sort of a warm up. Hope that helps
Psst - um, dude. We already know all that stuff.
Maybe check out some past threads and such first. Don't get angry, I'm just saying I've stood next to JW777 at over a hundred yards making hits on a steel A zone while Larry Vickers runs the timer.
M_P
Who's angry, I'm making a statement. some people dont' know, and sice this if exchange information i think it' relevant.
Someone has thin skin. :D
R.
Jay Cunningham
01-25-10, 19:18
TK,
Any time limits on that?
From what I have read, no.
Shot from the ready on small dots. I would say start at three yards.
It would be really helpful if you can shoot with a buddy who can watch what you are doing when you are shooting.
Jay Cunningham
01-25-10, 19:19
Im in no way shape or form an expert on any subject matter but I do have a similar anticipation problem and I have a friend who ran this drill with me a few times and it actually helped considerably.
What he did was made me empty all of my mags and clear my weapon.
He then took a few of my mags and a few rounds and loaded every other mag with a round.
Not knowing which mags he loaded and which ones he didn't, he gassed it up and handed me my weapon. I got in the low ready and he gave me a fire command.
The drill helped ease the initial shock of the first shot and helped him analyze a plethora of other problems I was having.
We usually run this before running drills as sort of a warm up. Hope that helps
You pretty much described "ball and dummy" which has been mentioned.
You pretty much described "ball and dummy" which has been mentioned.
Kinda sorta.
Ive never ran the ball and dummy but from your description it seems as though it is made conscious whether or not you are firing a live round.
With the drill my friend has me running you are unaware if the next squeeze of the trigger will be a live round.
It helped alot with anticipation and flinching.
Sproggy -- Here is what I'm hearing so far:
You know what you're doing.
You know what you're doing wrong.
You know how to fix it.
All things considered, that's not a bad place to be. I'd simply recommend putting time into the B&D drill and little else until you're managing things the way you want.]
I was thinking the same thing this morning. That is until I spent 2 hours at the range doing every variation of ball and dummy I could conjure up. After 200 excruciating rounds I was as frustrated as ever.
What gun, caliber, and ammo are you using?]
Im issued a Glock 17 and generally use winchestrer white box or whatever else is cheap and attainable. I carry a 19 off duty and alternate using that every other range trip. I shoot once a week with dry fire practice every day.
You might also want to consider:
B&D strong- and weak-hand only. The SHO/WHO drills tend to put folks in a less anticipatory mindset because they don't have an expectation of keeping the gun locked still in space as it goes off.]
I will do this as soon as I can get back to the range. Ive also considered switching hands to see If I experience the same thing using my left.
Get better hearing protection, if possible. Folks with serious ingrained flinches are often sensitive to blast. If you're not doubling up (muffs + plugs) do so. If you're using low-NRR muffs with or without low-NRR plugs, upgrade to more protection.]
I double up using Surefire ear pro with peltor electronic over top.
Try shooting some close bullseye targets with your eyes closed. I know, it sounds crazy. But closing your eyes will eliminate performance anxiety related to marksmanship and will also let you really focus your attention on how your hands and arms are moving as the trigger is about to break.
I actually thought about doing this as well but havent tried it yet. When i shot today i just used a small silhouette target thats pretty much impossible to miss from 7 yards. I figured that would eliminate any performance anxiety but now that i think about it, I still found myself aiming for the high center chest. I will try what you suggested ASAP.
Jay Cunningham
01-25-10, 20:03
Kinda sorta.
Ive never ran the ball and dummy but from your description it seems as though it is made conscious whether or not you are firing a live round.
No, the whole point of ball & dummy is that your partner (or you, by mixing up magazines) sets your gun up with either a live round ("ball") or a snap cap or empty chamber ("dummy"). The shooter does not know what the next trigger press will bring.
Not sure sure how well problems can be diagnosed over the internet...
Do you have the anticipation problem when you conduct slow-fire accuracy drills?
You might consider working accuracy and speed drills separately...ending sessions with slowfire accuracy drills. I only shoot as fast as I can maintain accuracy standards. If groups open up too much I slow down.
Also, can't you e-mail the instructors you listed? I can't imagine they wouldn't help a former student out.
My whole issue is anticipation while doing slow fire extreme accuracy drills. I shoot often against the clock and actually shoot pretty darn good at speed(looking for combat accurate hits). My thing is that im a perfectionist....my goal is to be able to shoot 5-6 inch groups at 25 yards. An entirely attainable goal with a good smooth trigger press. If only I could do it.....
Jay Cunningham
01-25-10, 20:17
Sproggy,
When you are trying these extreme precision slow fire drills and failing, are you agonizing on your trigger press? Are you taking up very slowly... waiting... waiting... trying to make that perfect hit?
Yes....or at least im trying to. Im drawing and presenting slowly(with a good grip), getting a good sight picture and alignment, and then trying to slowly and smoothly press the trigger to the rear. My problem is that I start off slow and then blast through the last bit of trigger press. I believe its anticipation thats causing it. Ive tried the whole front sight.... front sight.... front sight....front sight gig(repeating it as I press the trigger) and it didnt work for me. I spent 2 hours today trying to psyche myself out of this issue and just couldnt do it. And that was only 2 of many many hours ive spent trying to remedy the problem over the last few months.
Jay Cunningham
01-25-10, 20:26
How long does it take you generally to break a shot when doing this?
This may sound counter-intuitive, but you may be messing with your own head. Try some dry fire on little dots where you get on your trigger and simply press and get it over with.
Then try it live fire. Do not agonize over your press and just get to it. Put your finger on the trigger and press it straight back. Speed it up a little and don't torture yourself.
See if that helps.
:)
Thats the thing....When I dry fire at home or on the range I rarely disturb the sights regardless of whether im pressing quickly or slowly. I believe that is what makes me able to get good hits(all hits within a 3 inch dot) from 7-10 yards. But Im concerned that its a crutch...does that make sense? When i take the target out to 15 or 25 yards the results are not the same. I feel like to get the kind of extreme precision im looking for I need to be able to press the trigger slowly and without anticipation. But....Its almost like i anticipate more when I drag the proccess out and try to press slowly. Could I really just be torturing myself? Maybe Im going crazy over this! As for how long it takes me to break the shot...Im not really sure. Probably not long enough but when Ive tried to go reeeeaaaaaally slow in the past its almost like my hands spaz out. I jerk the sights off target, shake, its pathetic.
And for the record, I sincerely appreciate you all trying to help me. I generally dont ask for help until im extremely frustrated.....which ive now been for quite a while. So thank you again and know that I am seriously considering everyones suggestions.
Thats the thing....When I dry fire at home or on the range I rarely disturb the sights regardless of whether im pressing quickly or slowly. I believe that is what makes me able to get good hits(all hits within a 3 inch dot) form 7-10 yards. But Im concerned that its a crutch...does that make sense? When i take the target out to 15 or 25 yards the results are not the same. I feel like to get the kind of extreme precision im looking for I need to be able to press the trigger slowly and without anticipation. But....Its almost like i anticipate more when I drag the proccess out and try to press slowly. Could I really just be torturing myself? Maybe Im going crazy over this!
And for the record, I sincerely appreciate you all trying to help me. I generally dont ask for help until im extremely frustrated.....which ive now been for quite a while. So thank you again and know that I am seriously considering everyones suggestions.
You're asking a lot if you're hoping to get a 5-6" circle at 25.
Like I said, if you can't do what I explained earlier at 5y, all your doing at 25 is getting frustrated. I know when I get like that I stop getting anything out of my training.
Also, when shooting very slowly for accuracy and proper technique, you need to be able to focus enough to properly squeeze the trigger slowly all the way through, and not just snap the last bit. That's all mental, you're not being patiente enough through the entire squeeze. No ball and bummy drill is going to help IMO.
R.
John_Wayne777
01-25-10, 21:03
Thats the thing....When I dry fire at home or on the range I rarely disturb the sights regardless of whether im pressing quickly or slowly. I believe that is what makes me able to get good hits(all hits within a 3 inch dot) form 7-10 yards. But Im concerned that its a crutch...does that make sense? When i take the target out to 15 or 25 yards the results are not the same.
What it takes on the sights to make a precise shot at 7 yards is very different than what it takes to make a precise shot at 25. At 7 yards the natural movement of your sights doesn't seem like much on a reasonable target, like this UPC code:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/TueJan05190002AmericaNew_York2010.jpg
Shot at 5 yards it wasn't hard to produce that group.
When you move the target to 25 yards, however, suddenly you're looking at this:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/TueJan05190036AmericaNew_York2010.jpg
With the natural movement of the sights it now looks like your sights are all over the bloody target.
That trips people up. Here's the reality:
That natural movement is there at 7 yards and at 25 yards...and it's the same amount of movement. If you move the gun in a 2" circle around the target at 2 yards and then do the same thing with the target at 25 yards, it's the same 2" circle...but because of the distance it LOOKS like a 3 foot circle at 25 yards. What you have to learn is that the sights can be on the edge of the target and still hit center at those longer distances:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/TueJan05185842AmericaNew_York2010.jpg
Now my front sight was not sitting right under the orange dot when I fired that 5 shot string. I couldn't SEE the dot at 25 yards. I just tried to keep the sights perfectly aligned and somewhere around the center area of the black, (sometimes the sights were on the left side of the black, sometimes on the right side of the black, sometimes in the top 1/3, sometimes in the lower 1/3) took the slack out of the trigger, and then executed a proper trigger press. The flyer seen (which is still in the black, you'll notice) came from a failure to properly align my sights. I didn't have that bullseye perfect sight orientation but it still landed in the 8 ring at 25 yards.
What a lot of people do is see their sights moving around and then when they get the sight picture somewhere close to where they want it, they think "NOW!" and then gank the shot, slapping the trigger and anticipating recoil. Learning to get over the psychological fakeout of the ever-moving sights is a huge issue for lots of folks. Learning to understand how to manage the sights is probably your biggest hurdle as far as accuracy goes right now. If you can shoot 1 hole groups at 7 yards your trigger control is where it needs to be. If you don't know how to manage your sight picture at longer ranges, however, it can cluck up your results.
I feel like to get the kind of extreme precision im looking for I need to be able to press the trigger slowly and without anticipation. But....Its almost like i anticipate more when I drag the proccess out and try to press slowly. Could I really just be torturing myself? Maybe Im going crazy over this!
The longer you hang it out there the more you screw yourself. One of the most revealing things I've ever seen was watching LAV shoot the walkback drills. On more than one occasion I saw him press out, hang for a second, and then bring the gun back into his chest, look down, and then press out again. He was doing a mental reset. Generally after doing that he scored a hit, usually a damn good one. The longer you hang the gun out there the more the sights move, the more the sights move the more pressure you feel to try and pull the trigger at the exact moment that the sight picture looks ideal, which leads to poor trigger manipulation and often anticipation of the shot.
And for the record, I sincerely appreciate you all trying to help me. I generally dont ask for help until im extremely frustrated.....which ive now been for quite a while. So thank you again and know that I am seriously considering everyones suggestions.
Try using a laser. Some folks find it easier to pick up this lesson using a laser and then can translate what they've learned back to the iron sights. Lasers are never still, meaning you have to learn to break the shot despite having an acceptable level of movement on the target downrange. Once you figure out that your hits can be great even when the laser is dancing a bit you can translate that into using the irons. With the irons if you keep the sights properly aligned with each other and stop worrying about exactly which exact part of the target the front sight is sitting on and then break a clean shot (taking the slack out of the trigger and then once the actual sear engagement starts properly pressing the trigger to the rear without disrupting the sights) you'll find that you generally hit center more often than not.
This is one of those things that folks can tell you about, but you have to actually do it a few times to really learn the lesson. I struggled with this for a long time in my shooting. Once it started clicking, though, it started working GREAT. I'm by no means a great pistoleer, but if you ask the guys I've shot with around here they'll tell you that I'm generally a pretty accurate shooter.
...oh, and as you can see, I do considerably better than a 6" circle at 25. ;)
You're asking a lot if you're hoping to get a 5-6" circle at 25.
This I know....but ive seen it done by mere mortals. If they can do it, i can do it.
Like I said, if you can't do what I explained earlier at 5y, all your doing at 25 is getting frustrated. I know when I get like that I stop getting anything out of my training.
You mentioned putting 5 rounds in the same hole. Please dont think im being disrespectful, but 5 rounds in the same hole at 5 yards would likely equal a 6 inch group at 25 yards. The cone of deviation at that distance, with that kind of precision at 5 yards, wouldnt be that great.
As for getting frustrated, i know what you mean. i should have stopped after the first 100 rounds. But this is pissing me off, and Im going to fix it.
Also, when shooting very slowly for accuracy and proper technique, you need to be able to focus enough to properly squeeze the trigger slowly all the way through, and not just snap the last bit. That's all mental, you're not being patiente enough through the entire squeeze. No ball and bummy drill is going to help IMO.
R.
I dont think youre understanding me. Im focusing so intently that I was literally exhausted after the 2 hours i spent on it today. Im not impatient...ill spend all day on it if It will yield results(and i can find the ammo).
I 100% agree that its all mental. It has to be because my dry fire practice is great. But that doesnt change the fact that its a barrier i havent been able to get past.
John_Wayne777
01-25-10, 21:12
I 100% agree that its all mental. It has to be because my dry fire practice is great. But that doesnt change the fact that its a barrier i havent been able to get past.
As I noted earlier...if you can shoot a bullet hole and then hit that bullet hole or damn close to it (almost touching) at 5-7 yards, you have all the trigger control you need to hit the X ring at 25. The sights may be screwing you up, as even a small misalignment that is no big deal at 7 yards turns into a wide miss at 25. The difference between my 10 ring hits and my 8 ring hit on that pictured target was a front sight that was just a hair too far left in the rear notch...something I called when I broke the shot. The shots seen to the left here are more of the same:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/TueJan05185931AmericaNew_York2010.jpg
The shots in the 10 ring (and the X) were perfect sight alignment. The high flyer is what happens when you're trying to reset on an unfamiliar trigger and the trigger finger gets ahead of the front sight. :D
From what I can tell, my sight alignment is very good right up until I snatch through the last bit of trigger press. I feel like If I could get past that anticipatory snatch then I would be making good hits at 25 yards. When I dry fire my sights rarely move AT ALL. But el snatcho always seems to take over on the range. Im not just on the short bus, im driving the freakin thing. Impressive shooting by the way, i aspire to shoot groups like that in the near future.
A little off topic, but has anyone trained with Tiger Swan? LAV doesnt seem to be running any classes nearby any time soon. But TS has a 3 day course coming up in february. Im sure they could help
John_Wayne777
01-25-10, 21:39
Are you actually seeing your sights as you break the shot, reading your hits from the sights?
EDIT -- TS is good to go, one of the better training outfits out there.
Jay Cunningham
01-25-10, 21:47
But....Its almost like i anticipate more when I drag the proccess out and try to press slowly. Could I really just be torturing myself? Maybe Im going crazy over this! As for how long it takes me to break the shot...Im not really sure. Probably not long enough but when Ive tried to go reeeeaaaaaally slow in the past its almost like my hands spaz out. I jerk the sights off target, shake, its pathetic.
Dude... go back and re-read what I wrote. This is really what I was talking about. You said "probably not long enough" in reference to how long when breaking one of these shots. I'm going to go out on a limb and say you are probably taking way too long.
Get your sight picture, get on your trigger and press it. Quit torturing yourself. The longer you take and the more you agonize over the trigger does not make for a more precise shot (as you have seen.) You are messing with your own head.
Trying to! Sometimes I can, but when the snatching starts its an excercise in futility.
John_Wayne777
01-25-10, 21:50
Trying to! Sometimes I can, but when the snatching starts its an excercise in futility.
If you are snatching you should see your front sight dip. This is another place where a laser comes in handy. If you see the dot making a check mark or a U on the target you are anticipating recoil.
This I know....but ive seen it done by mere mortals. If they can do it, i can do it.
You mentioned putting 5 rounds in the same hole. Please dont think im being disrespectful, but 5 rounds in the same hole at 5 yards would likely equal a 6 inch group at 25 yards. The cone of deviation at that distance, with that kind of precision at 5 yards, wouldnt be that great.
As for getting frustrated, i know what you mean. i should have stopped after the first 100 rounds. But this is pissing me off, and Im going to fix it.
I dont think youre understanding me. Im focusing so intently that I was literally exhausted after the 2 hours i spent on it today. Im not impatient...ill spend all day on it if It will yield results(and i can find the ammo).
I 100% agree that its all mental. It has to be because my dry fire practice is great. But that doesnt change the fact that its a barrier i havent been able to get past.
Don't do the math and try to convert what a 5y group would look like at 25y. But even your numbers are good. I don’t now what kind of shooting you're doing if it's combat shooting, competition or you're just trying to excel for self defense reason.
I know combat shooting. If you can keep all your rounds inside an open hand, which is the equivalent of about a 6-8" circle, you're doing well. You'll drop the threat. Believe me I learned it from some very bad ass men in some of this country’s top SF units. If you can get the group smaller than that, then even better, but trust me for combat shooting shots inside an open hand is good. And there's nothing wrong with getting smaller than that in training as long as you're not too slow. Combat shooting is a balance of speed and accuracy. If you can keep up the speed feel free to make the target samller. Training doesn't have to be easy, actully it shouldn't be. In stress your shot groups will open up anyway. That's why it's important to train small. and shoot small.
In my first post I wrote to relax, relax your body, your shoulders and the grip. I told you to breathe, this will minimize the shakes and blurry vision. If you're wore out after 2 hours of just basic target shooting you're way to tense, physically and mentally .
Relax, trust me just relax. Also, don’t over think it. It sounds like you know what to do, so just knock it out but relax.
Ok, try this, can you take a good buddy that knows you well. One that can tell when you’re getting worked up and tense? If so take him with you to the range and have him keep you calm when you start to get frustrated, have him talk to you through the different parts and keep you relaxed.
Also John_Wayne777 made some good points as well. At 25y your sights are going to move period, so what people do is when the sights are on the target , the shooter yanks on the trigger hoping to get the good shot. Needless to say the results usually suck. Why, because by the time the brain recognizes that the sights are on target then sends that signal back to the trigger finger and pulls the trigger the sight are no longer on target, hence the miss
The way you beat this is just like you do it when shooting on the move.
What you do is this: When you have your sight on target and the sight are constantly moving at some point your sight is going to cross the bull’s-eye, when it does squeeze the trigger a bit (not all the way, just a bit), as soon as the sights come of the bull’s-eye stop squeezing but maintain that pressure on the trigger, when the sights cross the bull’s-eye again , squeeze some more until the sights are off the bull’s-eye and again hold that amount of pressure on the trigger. Never let go of the amount of pressure you’ve applied. Eventually the shot is going to break when you apply pressure on and when it does it should be on the bull’s-eye. At that point you're not catching up and slapping the trigger as the front sight moves past the bull’s-eye. I hope I was clear in the technique.
The same concept is done with shooting and moving trust me it works. It made a world of difference in my shooting and moving.
Take this little by little don’t get frustrated and with time you'll get to the level you want. Just give it time. At least your motivated about it and attacking the problem. That's good. Keep it up.
R.
I was like you. I was always a good shot and very very fast inside 15 yards. I couldn't get over the hurdle of making consistent good hits at 25 yards and further out. It was definitely related to a combination of poor trigger manipulation and sight alignment. So.....I decided to face my fear and double the distance. I practiced at 50 yards for 2 months solid(2-3 sessions a week and matches on the weekends). Every practice session was done at that distance and I would shoot 2-250 rounds per session. I did many of the same drills at those distances as I would do at 10 yards. They were just slower to allow for sight picture refinement and the type of trigger press necessary to get the hit. It was all about visual patience. I am a USPSA shooter so I used a metric USPSA target. What I did for the first 2 weeks was outline the A zone with a black marker to aid in visual reference of my aiming center. While focusing on the front sight against the target it is much harder to visualize the A zone I was aiming at. So I had a thick black outline that allowed me to see it in the fuzzy target while I focused at holding my clear front sight in the A zone as I pressed the trigger. I did some ball and dummy drills at this distance to give me an idea just how much I possibly could be moving my sights off the area I was aiming at. That gave me an idea how much I had to refine my trigger press for the distance I was shooting. Very quickly i was able to place 10 rounds in the A zone at 50 yards. As I increased in proficiency in knowing what I needed to see in the sights and do with the trigger press, I added multiple targets and started setting par times for myself and accomplishing them. After those 2 months worth of practice sessions, I went back forward to the 25 yard line. It was an eye opening experience. I was able to place a magazine full of head shots as if the target were 10 yards in front of me at a fairly fast speed. I could do a 3 second bill drill and keep all 6 in the A zone in about a 4-6" circle. It did wonders for my skill. It became fairly easy. So then I started working on my SHO and WHO at 25 yards. Then that became much easier. Shortly thereafter I made the rank of GrandMaster in Production and not long after that in Limited.
The advice you are getting here is great advice. This is what worked for me and was a progressive evolution in my training. Now....my practice every other month consists of the 50 yard line and sometimes the 100. I always start off with WHO,then SHO and then both hands. I enjoy shooting plate racks and banks of poppers at 50 yards. Multiple targets teaches me to stop the gun on every target as I transition and acquire the sight picture and press the trigger needed to get the hit. To me....it was all about identifying what it took so that I could do it repeatedly. I was persistent in my training plan to accomplish my goal. I knew I could do it. Now its easy and I have the utmost confidence in my ability.
You are on the right path. Stay focused.
Good luck.
Dude... go back and re-read what I wrote. This is really what I was talking about. You said "probably not long enough" in reference to how long when breaking one of these shots. I'm going to go out on a limb and say you are probably taking way too long.
Get your sight picture, get on your trigger and press it. Quit torturing yourself. The longer you take and the more you agonize over the trigger does not make for a more precise shot (as you have seen.) You are messing with your own head.
I think what i wrote was misleading. Im not shaking because im holding the gun out there too long. If i were to index the gun and then count one one thousand....two one thousand...three one thousand, all the way to about 6 one thousand. By that time(usually half that time), for better or worse, I would have fired the shot. What I have experienced though is that in trying to hold the gun steady and press the trigger slowly I will jerk the sights off target even before the trigger snatch. Its hard to explain and it doesnt always happen. I think its just a byproduct of some of the things im trying to minimize the snatch.
Is it possible that at 25 yards that the increased distance you are shiftng focus too much between the front sight while keeping it aligned in the rear against the target?
Are you clearly seeing your front sight? Could you be focus shifting too much distracting you from a clean trigger press?
Failure2Stop
01-25-10, 22:34
Todd G, The Katar, and JW777 have given you all the information necessary.
It's the mental game, as mentioned, that is causing your issues.
Since they have covered it all, I am just going to talk about some ways to work on your mental program to encourage you to shoot as well with live rounds as you do during dry-fire.
I have competed in bulls-eye shooting (against my will :D) and have trained many people in bulls-eye pistol. Shooting 25 yard bulls-eye one-handed definately teaches one how to overcome anticipation. 50 yard even moreso.
Prepare the gun the same way when dry-firing/using dummy rounds as when shooting live. At least for a while in the starting training blocks. I like to impress upon the shooter that they must earn each and every shot, one press at a time. What I mean by "prepare the gun" covers everything from loading, chambering a round (racking the slide), acquiring a grip, extending the gun, settling the sights, and pressing the trigger smoothly through sight wobble.
Treat every dry shot as a live shot, and every live shot as a dry shot. When dry-firing think about tracking the sights through recoil and resetting the trigger. Focus on a smooth trigger press- not on being slow or fast, but on being smooth. Smooth gradual increase of pressure until the shot breaks. Smooth.
Ensure that you keep your eye open through the aiming, firing, and recoil recovery phases of the shot. You must be aware of where the front sight was in the rear sight and where on the black blob of the target it was when the shot broke. The eye should track the sights through recoil. You should be able to explain exactly what the sights look like through recoil, and where the sights fall back on the target.
Do NOT look at the target while shooting. All focus must be on the sights. You should be aware of every single scratch and dent in the front sight while aiming. Fight to maintain sight alignment, accept the wobbly sight picture. As long as the center of the front sight is in the black the trigger should be moving smoothly to the rear.
One thing I like to do, FOLLOWING the 5 dry/1 live dril, and the ball & dummy (or live/dry with a buddy), is to load and ready, and then drop the magazine. Immediately after firing the live shot, attempt to fire another shot. This serves a few different purposes, highlighting errors or reinforcing proper technique for strings.
Reset on recoil. It helps get the mind focusing on the next shot, and is good practice for lots of other reasons and applications.
Dry fire on the range at 25 yards with other people shooting. It helps to mentally seperate booms from doing the right thing by forcing you to focus on technique while shots are being fired.
The place to take time is not while the sights are on target, but while the gun is down. Clear your mind and think about perfect sight alignment, a crystal clear front sight, and a smooth press through the wobble, seeing the sights lift off of the target. Once that goes perfectly in your mind, raise the pistol and perform those actions (both live and dry).
My problem is that I start off slow and then blast through the last bit of trigger press.
Patient: It hurts when I jam my thumb into my eye socket.
Doctor: Stop jamming your thumb into your eye socket.
Dude, I mean this in the most positive way possible: If you know what you're doing wrong, stop doing it. There is no other solution. You know the right way to do it and you're not doing it that way.
All the drills and descriptions in the world are't going to help. When you feel yourself "blast through the last bit of trigger press" you need to stop and start again rather than breaking the shot.
DCJS Instructor
01-25-10, 23:36
I'm not an Industry Professional on this forum but I have been doing this for a while and would like to add my $0.02...and that’s probably all it's worth.
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." - Benjamin Franklin
“Trigger Control”
A Pressing Concern for Instructors & Students
By: Tom Perroni
I have been an Instructor for about 20 years. I have been an Instructor Trainer (Someone who trains Instructors) for about 5 years and I have been a Firearms Instructor Trainer for 4 years.
My father, who was U.S. Marine Corps small arms Instructor & NRA Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor, taught me anyone can call the line… it takes an Instructor to fix the students problems. He would always say, “Watch the shooter, not the target.” In this way you can see what they are doing wrong and then verify it by looking at the target.
I teach that there are seven fundamentals of handgun shooting, and that each one is important to get accurate hits on a target. However the two most important fundamentals are front sight focus and trigger control. Whether we are talking about “Target Accuracy” or “Combat Accuracy” is something I will discuss in a future article. The most important thing in a gunfight is to hit what you aim at. However there is one fundamental that causes the most problems for students and instructors: Trigger Control. The vast majority of the time, a bad shot on an intended target can be directly traced to trigger control, or a lack thereof.
Here are some of the facts that I teach Firearms Instructors about Trigger Control:
1. It is the most common problem in shooters.
2. If not done correctly, you will not hit what you aim at.
3. Has to be done properly, even when hurried.
4. Trigger jerk and anticipation of recoil will consume 75% of your corrective action as an instructor.
5. This is the cornerstone of shooting fundamentals.
6. Once mastered, it must be practiced to the point where it is a subconscious act.
7. A shooter can practice with dry fire or ball and dummy exercises.
8. A shooter's target clearly tells the instructor whether proper trigger control is being employed.
9. Too large a percentage of firearms instructors do not know how to correct this in shooters, or themselves.
10. The exact same fundamental should be used no matter what weapon system the shooter is utilizing double action (DA), single action (SA), double action only (DAO).
11. Shooters will find a hundred excuses before they admit they are jerking the trigger or anticipating recoil. Most single action systems allow the shooter to jerk the trigger with minimal sight movement. Up close this is not a problem. To find out about trigger control, shoot from 15 to 25 yards.
13. A firearms instructor MUST be able to teach the proper method of controlling the trigger.
14. No matter what terminology you use, the trigger must cause the hammer to fall without disturbing the proper sight alignment!
All too often instructors will tell the student about their trigger control or lack thereof; however no one seems to be able to tell that student how to fix the problem. I will attempt to give you a few tools to fix this problem in your students or yourself.
Let’s begin with the trigger finger’s placement vis-à-vis the trigger. At CCJA we teach students who are using a semi-auto pistol that the trigger should cross the finger approximately halfway between the tip of the finger and the first joint, over the swirl of the fingerprint. (The finger nail area)
Finger Placement The finger is placed so that the trigger is halfway between the tip of the finger and the first joint. “The trigger is squeezed or pressed straight to the rear in a smooth continuous manner without disturbing sight alignment.” You should not be able to predict the instant the gun will fire. Each shot should come as a surprise. Note the trigger finger continually maintains contact with the trigger.
Trigger Squeeze / Press. After attaining proper placement of the finger on the trigger, proper trigger pressure can be applied to the trigger. There are three parts of trigger pressure each time the weapon is fired. They are slack, squeeze / press, and follow through.
All three parts are important to proper trigger control.
1. Slack. The shooter must first take up the slack at the beginning of the trigger movement by applying slight pressure to the trigger. The trigger will move slightly to the rear until the internal parts of the trigger mechanism come into full contact with each other, and the “softness” in the tip of the finger is eliminated.
2. Squeeze / Press. The trigger is then in the squeeze / press portion of its movement, which is when the internal parts of the weapon are being disengaged from each other to allow the hammer to fall. The pressure should be a smooth, constant, and even pressure, applied straight to the rear so that the sights are not misaligned at the instant the hammer falls. Once the hammer begins to fall, the follow through portion of trigger control begins.
3. Follow Through. Follow through is the continued steady pressure applied to the trigger until the trigger reaches its most rearward point of travel. If the shooter does not continue to apply the constant, even pressure during follow through, it is possible that the impact of the round could move on the target, thus spoiling an otherwise good shot.
Trigger Release
Once the shot has broken and the trigger is fully to the rear it must be released forward for follow up shots. The most failsafe method is to maintain contact with the trigger and let it move fully forward at the same speed with which you pressed it. The marksman’s trick of letting the trigger return only far enough to reset the sear or "hear the click" This is most evident in Glocks! When shooting fast with a loss of fine motor dexterity the tendency is to not let the trigger forward enough. The result is at best a momentary pause in the firing and at worst a perception that the gun has malfunctioned somehow. We call it "double clutching" the trigger.
Dry fire practice is the key to achieve proper trigger press and will not damage a modern handgun. However you must press the trigger to the rear without disrupting sight picture and sight alignment.
Point of aim is point of impact. Which means where ever the front sight is when the bullet leaves the barrel is where it will impact on the target.
There is one Federal Law Enforcement Agency that has its agents repeat front sight, front sight, front sight, front sight until the trigger breaks. This allows them to focus on the front sight to get that surprise break “while using proper trigger control.”
Believe it or not there are more things to talk about when it comes to trigger control but we only have so much room for the article. Want to know more? Come to class, and we’ll talk…..
I don't have fancy names for what I teach...I don’t name techniques after myself... If you shoot fast or slow aim big or small if you are in a basic course or High Speed Low drag, Super cool Ninja class ...If you don’t have and use proper shooting fundamentals you are not going to hit what you aim at.
Tom
.
I have been an Instructor for about 20 years. I have been an Instructor Trainer (Someone who trains Instructors) for about 5 years and I have been a Firearms Instructor Trainer for 4 years.
My father, who was U.S. Marine Corps small arms Instructor & NRA Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor, taught me anyone can call the line… it takes an Instructor to fix the students problems. He would always say, “Watch the shooter, not the target.” In this way you can see what they are doing wrong and then verify it by looking at the target.
I teach that there are seven fundamentals of handgun shooting, and that each one is important to get accurate hits on a target. However the two most important fundamentals are front sight focus and trigger control. Whether we are talking about “Target Accuracy” or “Combat Accuracy” is something I will discuss in a future article. The most important thing in a gunfight is to hit what you aim at. However there is one fundamental that causes the most problems for students and instructors: Trigger Control. The vast majority of the time, a bad shot on an intended target can be directly traced to trigger control, or a lack thereof.
Here are some of the facts that I teach Firearms Instructors about Trigger Control:
1. It is the most common problem in shooters.
2. If not done correctly, you will not hit what you aim at.
3. Has to be done properly, even when hurried.
4. Trigger jerk and anticipation of recoil will consume 75% of your corrective action as an instructor.
5. This is the cornerstone of shooting fundamentals.
6. Once mastered, it must be practiced to the point where it is a subconscious act.
7. A shooter can practice with dry fire or ball and dummy exercises.
8. A shooter's target clearly tells the instructor whether proper trigger control is being employed.
9. Too large a percentage of firearms instructors do not know how to correct this in shooters, or themselves.
10. The exact same fundamental should be used no matter what weapon system the shooter is utilizing double action (DA), single action (SA), double action only (DAO).
11. Shooters will find a hundred excuses before they admit they are jerking the trigger or anticipating recoil. Most single action systems allow the shooter to jerk the trigger with minimal sight movement. Up close this is not a problem. To find out about trigger control, shoot from 15 to 25 yards.
13. A firearms instructor MUST be able to teach the proper method of controlling the trigger.
14. No matter what terminology you use, the trigger must cause the hammer to fall without disturbing the proper sight alignment!
All too often instructors will tell the student about their trigger control or lack thereof; however no one seems to be able to tell that student how to fix the problem. I will attempt to give you a few tools to fix this problem in your students or yourself.
Let’s begin with the trigger finger’s placement vis-à-vis the trigger. At CCJA we teach students who are using a semi-auto pistol that the trigger should cross the finger approximately halfway between the tip of the finger and the first joint, over the swirl of the fingerprint. (The finger nail area)
Finger Placement The finger is placed so that the trigger is halfway between the tip of the finger and the first joint. “The trigger is squeezed or pressed straight to the rear in a smooth continuous manner without disturbing sight alignment.” You should not be able to predict the instant the gun will fire. Each shot should come as a surprise. Note the trigger finger continually maintains contact with the trigger.
Trigger Squeeze / Press. After attaining proper placement of the finger on the trigger, proper trigger pressure can be applied to the trigger. There are three parts of trigger pressure each time the weapon is fired. They are slack, squeeze / press, and follow through.
All three parts are important to proper trigger control.
1. Slack. The shooter must first take up the slack at the beginning of the trigger movement by applying slight pressure to the trigger. The trigger will move slightly to the rear until the internal parts of the trigger mechanism come into full contact with each other, and the “softness” in the tip of the finger is eliminated.
2. Squeeze / Press. The trigger is then in the squeeze / press portion of its movement, which is when the internal parts of the weapon are being disengaged from each other to allow the hammer to fall. The pressure should be a smooth, constant, and even pressure, applied straight to the rear so that the sights are not misaligned at the instant the hammer falls. Once the hammer begins to fall, the follow through portion of trigger control begins.
3. Follow Through. Follow through is the continued steady pressure applied to the trigger until the trigger reaches its most rearward point of travel. If the shooter does not continue to apply the constant, even pressure during follow through, it is possible that the impact of the round could move on the target, thus spoiling an otherwise good shot.
Trigger Release
Once the shot has broken and the trigger is fully to the rear it must be released forward for follow up shots. The most failsafe method is to maintain contact with the trigger and let it move fully forward at the same speed with which you pressed it. The marksman’s trick of letting the trigger return only far enough to reset the sear or "hear the click" This is most evident in Glocks! When shooting fast with a loss of fine motor dexterity the tendency is to not let the trigger forward enough. The result is at best a momentary pause in the firing and at worst a perception that the gun has malfunctioned somehow. We call it "double clutching" the trigger.
Dry fire practice is the key to achieve proper trigger press and will not damage a modern handgun. However you must press the trigger to the rear without disrupting sight picture and sight alignment.
Point of aim is point of impact. Which means where ever the front sight is when the bullet leaves the barrel is where it will impact on the target.
There is one Federal Law Enforcement Agency that has its agents repeat front sight, front sight, front sight, front sight until the trigger breaks. This allows them to focus on the front sight to get that surprise break “while using proper trigger control.”
Believe it or not there are more things to talk about when it comes to trigger control but we only have so much room for the article. Want to know more? Come to class, and we’ll talk…..
I don't have fancy names for what I teach...I don’t name techniques after myself... If you shoot fast or slow aim big or small if you are in a basic course or High Speed Low drag, Super cool Ninja class ...If you don’t have and use proper shooting fundamentals you are not going to hit what you aim at.
Tom
.
Can I get an AMEN to all of it. Very well said and explained!!!!??[/SIZE]
There is one Federal Law Enforcement Agency that has its agents repeat front sight, front sight, front sight, front sight until the trigger breaks. This allows them to focus on the front sight to get that surprise break “while using proper trigger control.”
I have actually started doing this. It helps a suprising large amount. People look at you like you are retarded. But they are not hitting anything, and you are.
Also putting Warrens on my handguns helped also. I focus on the grooves (I do not know the technical name for them) on the front sight post. This takes my focus and puts it right on the front sight post.
Here is a link to another article about jerking/flinching
http://www.firearmstrainingandtactics.com/forums/showthread.php?10-Overcoming-the-flinch-response-Let-Recoil-Happen!-by-Ron-Avery
PJ
Patient: It hurts when I jam my thumb into my eye socket.
Doctor: Stop jamming your thumb into your eye socket.
Dude, I mean this in the most positive way possible: If you know what you're doing wrong, stop doing it. There is no other solution. You know the right way to do it and you're not doing it that way.
All the drills and descriptions in the world are't going to help. When you feel yourself "blast through the last bit of trigger press" you need to stop and start again rather than breaking the shot.
Youre exactly right...and that is why its so frustrating. I know the fiundamentals of marksmanship, and I know I can perform them. Ive just got some kind of trigger retardation in my brain that im having a hard time getting past.
Youre exactly right...and that is why its so frustrating. I know the fiundamentals of marksmanship, and I know I can perform them. Ive just got some kind of trigger retardation in my brain that im having a hard time getting past.
Stop trying to make the gun go >BANG< and just think about pulling the trigger.
Stop trying to control the recoil and just let the gun hang in the air after you shoot.
Stop thinking about being frustrated and start thinking about getting better.
spamsammich
01-26-10, 13:30
I was working on somethings at the range last night while trying to get used to my G19 with a NY1 and Glock 3.5# connector. Concentrating on the front sight and relaxing my strong hand while smoothly pressing the trigger back got me pretty much back to where I was with the stock connector and spring combo. After a while, I didn't even notice the extra take up weight and I noticed that the reset was very much improved.
But without a doubt, the biggest change to my groups came immediately after I decided to double up on my ears. I was already wearing Surefire plugs with the stoppers in and just put on some ear muffs to supplement. I was surprised and a little ashamed at how much of a difference it made. Lastly, I did some ball and dummy with the recommended 5 dry fire. I have to honestly say that I've never shot a G19 better in my life that I did last night. I can only hope I can keep this up. Smooth works!
I don't have nearly the experience, or the skill, of the other posters in this thread (including the OP), so I'm hesitant to add anything, but I will throw this out there in the hopes that it might be helpful.
I have noticed that one of the hardest things for me to do is to stay aware of, or tuned in to, exactly what I'm doing all the way through the shot process. Often this manifests as part of, or in conjunction with, a flinch. That is, just as the shot is about to break, I kind of tune out, or lose focus, and jerk the shot (usually down/left). Since I identified this tendency, I've found that it's much easier to avoid it and to stay "on" all the way through. When I am able to stay focused on what I am doing all the way through the process (A) I do much better and (B) I can really tell where I'm screwing something up because I actually see it happening. Once I've identified the problem by actually seeing it as it occurs, it's much, much easier for me to correct it (or at least work on correcting it) by, as Todd said, just not doing it.
To the OP, the way you describe this flinch, it sounds to me like it's something you know you must be doing but haven't really seen for yourself. If that's the case, trying to stay focused on the actual trigger pull right at the moment the shot is about to break, without worrying so much about where the shot is going to land, might help. Again, you're already a better shooter than I am, so take this for what it's worth and please don't take offense.
David Blinder
01-26-10, 14:45
What specific type of eye protection do you use? Also, have you ever tried the concept of adding 1/4lb of pressure incrementally until the shot breaks?
I use Revision Sawfly's with clear lenses. As far as the press goes.... I gradually add pressure until the shot breaks.
David Blinder
01-26-10, 16:14
The Revision's are good to go so that eliminated what might have been a contributing factor. Just until you can get the anticipation worked out, consider incrementally adding pressure rather than continuous gradual pressure. By exaggerating the press into a step by step increase, you should have a better chance of isolating exactly where you go from smooth steady progression to the rear to snatching the crap out of it. Then, as Todd suggested, don't do that anymore.
David is exactly right. Many people add distance consistently, trying to keep the speed of their finger unchanged. That's not right. You want to add pressure incrementally without worrying about where in the trigger stroke your finger is.
DCJS Instructor
01-26-10, 18:42
Youre exactly right...and that is why its so frustrating. I know the fiundamentals of marksmanship, and I know I can perform them. Ive just got some kind of trigger retardation in my brain that im having a hard time getting past.
Sproggy,
I have a (1) Day Handgun 1 course Feb 6th starting @ 9:00a.m.
This course will focus on building a solid foundation of the proper shooting fundamentals and build solid firearms handling skills.
I will put my money where my mouth is...You sir can take the class for FREE!
All I ask in return is an AAR...The Good the Bad and the Ugly!
The class will be held in Fredericksburg, Va. at my facility. You are not that far away in Va. Beach. When I worked at BW it would take me 3 1/2 hours from Fredburg to Moyock.
I am in business to make money, however, I love what I do for a living (I get to shoot almost every day) more importantly, and I get great satisfaction out of helping others learn. So my hope is to help you become a better shooter. In turn you let people know what you think.
Anyone can get on the internet and try to diagnose your problem. However without watching you shoot I'm not sure anyone can truly diagnose you...They can make an educated guess. And may be close or even right in some cases but I truly want to help!
Tom Perroni
(540) 322-3000
www.ccjatraining.com
Sproggy,
I have a (1) Day Handgun 1 course Feb 6th starting @ 9:00a.m.
This course will focus on building a solid foundation of the proper shooting fundamentals and build solid firearms handling skills.
I will put my money where my mouth is...You sir can take the class for FREE!
All I ask in return is an AAR...The Good the Bad and the Ugly!
The class will be held in Fredericksburg, Va. at my facility. You are not that far away in Va. Beach. When I worked at BW it would take me 3 1/2 hours from Fredburg to Moyock.
I am in business to make money, however, I love what I do for a living (I get to shoot almost every day) more importantly, and I get great satisfaction out of helping others learn. So my hope is to help you become a better shooter. In turn you let people know what you think.
Anyone can get on the internet and try to diagnose your problem. However without watching you shoot I'm not sure anyone can truly diagnose you...They can make an educated guess. And may be close or even right in some cases but I truly want to help!
Tom Perroni
(540) 322-3000
www.ccjatraining.com
:eek: You don't see that everyday!
Damn! That's badass and very generous of you. And very good, simple language in your above post about trigger control. Thanks
Tom,
What an incredibly generous offer...... I accept and look forward to it. Everyone can expect an in depth AAR within 48 hours of the class. Check your PM's
Stop trying to control the recoil and just let the gun hang in the air after you shoot.
I think this is a very important point that a lot of people don't think about. It lets you focus on all of the things you have to do before the gun goes off, and none of the things you usually do after ignition. (Except hold the gun on the target until the bullet exits the barrel.) I find doing this especially useful when shooting SHO or WHO for maximum accuracy.
DCJS Instructor
01-26-10, 22:06
I take a somewhat different approach...
I tell my students for every one press of the trigger they should have (2) sight pictures...
1. Right before they break the shot.
2. Right after they break the shot.
So for 100 shots we have 101 sight pictures
Remember point of aim is point of impact…But where do I focus? Most instructors say the front sight…o.k. Where on the fronsight...that is the correct question…come to class and find out!
Follow through is important, Trigger rest is key. Often times something that makes us faster makes us less accurate and things that make us more accurate make us slower. This is not the case with trigger reset it is the perfect balance of speed and accuracy...When preformed correctly!
As well as a proper grip aids in controlling recoil to allow for faster/accurate follow up shots. We also talk about driving the gun from target to target. For multiple target engadements.
the following came from from J. Michael Plaxco
Shooting From Within is available directly from J. Michael Plaxco. He can be reached at 2109 Oakcrest Court, Corinth, TX 76210; (940) 367-2463.
Accuracy takes precedence over speed. "The most important thing is to hit what you are shooting at. No matter what else happens, you must hit your target."
Learn to apply your skills on demand. "Consistent top performers in any sport have a thorough understanding of the basics and have learned to apply the principles at all times. Don't be distracted from the shooting." Note: The obvious addition here is that no one knows for sure when an attack will occur and that being able to respond skillfully, without conscious thought, is essential or you will not be an active participant in your own rescue.
You must compete at your natural body speed. "Don't attempt to speed up or slow down. You must learn to allow it to happen." Note: In a fight, panic fire will not solve the problem. You must keep yourself in check and shoot no faster than you are capable of doing.
Speed is economy of motion. "Every move is directed toward gaining something. There is no wasted motion or effort." Note: Don't do anything that you are not required to do. Keeping your actions simple will oftentimes keep them effective.
Speed will increase through practice; it is a byproduct of proper training and technique. "You don't have to try to be fast. As your skill increases and you are able to execute at the subconscious level, speed increases naturally."
Let the sights dictate your cadence of fire. "Sight alignment is your speedometer--it shows you how fast you can or cannot go. If the sights are acceptably aligned, fire the shot. If the sights are not acceptably aligned, don't fire the shot until they are--whether it takes a quarter-second, half-second or two seconds." Note: Only hits end a fight; fast misses are like shots that are never taken, as they have no affect on the outcome. Don't believe in using the sights in defensive shooting situations? That's up to you.
Learn what is an acceptable sight picture, and trigger squeeze for the required shot. "Quality of sight alignment for a 15-yard shot is not as exact as for a 50-yard shot. You'd like to always see perfect sight alignment, but you must learn to accept less if it will still allow you to hit your target."
Shoot one shot at a time. The next shot you are about to fire is the most important one of your life. "Don't fall into the trap of thinking of strings of fire. A match [or a fight] is won shooting one shot at a time."
When all else fails, align the sights and squeeze the prepped trigger. No matter what else happens, if you align the sights and squeeze the prepped trigger, you will hit the target."
Tom
There are much more qualified people on this thread, but after reading through a whole lot of "can't", I thought I'd offer my $0.02. Caveat emptor, just my free advice in order of priority.
1) You're going too slow on the trigger press. 3s-6s is an eternity for a trigger press, especially on a service trigger, and maybe even worse for your particular duty gun. Present and get comfortable in your wobble zone. Then address the trigger and deliberately press the trigger completely to the rear within 1s. You've tried going slower, and it gets worse. This is a clue. Try going the other way.
2) Are you doing the ball and dummy drill by yourself? If so, it's not really ball and dummy. Have your range buddy load your weapon.
3) Have your range buddy press the trigger while you maintain sight alignment.
4) Try free recoil. Let the gun roll. Heck, let your support hand come off in recoil.
0) You are seriously psyching yourself out. As others have mentioned, doing the same thing more is not the answer. You are agonizing over the single event you are supposed to ignore: the trigger break. On top of that, your self-prescribed remedy is to slow down to give yourself even more time to agonize over it. What I'm reading is "Up close, I shoot pretty good fast, and I shoot better slow. At distance, I shoot ok slow, so logically I should shoot better slower. I keep shooting slower, but it's getting worse. So this time I'll shoot even slower, giving me more time to think about my trigger press. But then I also think more about the trigger break, so I'll next time try to shoot even slower..." Get out of your spiral. Slower does not necessarily equal smoother. My slowest shots are often my worst. Deliberate equals smooth.
So quit being so hard on yourself and press the trigger already. :) Hope you enjoy the class with CCJA, and I look forward to reading the AAR.
BLACK LION
01-27-10, 13:58
Get better hearing protection, if possible. Folks with serious ingrained flinches are often sensitive to blast. If you're not doubling up (muffs + plugs) do so. If you're using low-NRR muffs with or without low-NRR plugs, upgrade to more protection.
But closing your eyes will eliminate performance anxiety related to marksmanship and will also let you really focus your attention on how your hands and arms are moving as the trigger is about to break.
2 excellent points one of which I never thought of doing. I was going to mention doubling up with some ear pros and electronic muffs since my experience with plugs vs electronic muffs led me to the conclusion that the more the "POP" is muffled the less the tendency to flinch exists.... No matter how many tens of thousands of rounds my ears have heard go bang the flinch never goes away...I do not believe it is something that is "cognitive"...sort of like a spinal relex reaction like when the hand touches something hot.. it always jerks away no matter what.
Shadow1198
01-28-10, 01:25
The thing I found that helped me the most was relaxing my mind. It may sound too simple, and it's no different from the other great advice in this thread. The problem I had is I was actively focusing so hard on every little aspect that I was mentally stressed, tensed up, etc, which is not conducive to shooting accurately or consistently. Do whatever you have to do to achieve this state of mind, it will really help if you can put your mind in a relaxed state and simply stop focusing on and worrying about every aspect. Easier said than done, I know, but trust me it helps. It helped me to go through "checklist" mode:
-Grip, check
-Sights/sight alignment, check
-Trigger finger placement, check
-Trigger prep, check
Basically the idea is don't dwell on any of those aspects. Exerting too much mental focus will make things worse and more inconsistent when you are working on the fundamentals. Once you've got one of the steps out of the way, forget about that and move on to the next step.....then relax. If you have to, do some breathing exercises or something to try and relax your mind. Eventually, once you get it ingrained in to muscle memory, you aren't so much intentionally driving it as much as you are subconsciously setting the gun up and letting it do it's thing to some degree. I'm working my way back to this point as I've been horrible about keeping up with training and dry fire practice. ;)
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