View Full Version : "Unique Gen 4 Glock in .45 GAP for Florida Highway Patrol"
From http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2010/01/25/unique-gen-4-glock-in-45-gap-for-florida-highway-patrol/#more-549
Unique Gen 4 Glock in .45 GAP for Florida Highway Patrol
By Richard
The Florida Highway Patrol is purchasing unique Glock pistols that are unavailable, for now, to anyone else, according to Randy Pitts, a Glock sales representative at the 2010 SHOT Show. These new pistols will replace the aging Beretta 96 handguns currently carried by FHP.
Recently the Florida Highway Patrol conducted testing for a new duty pistol in Tallahassee, Fla. One of the pistols they tested was the Gen 4 Glock. The problem is Glock is only offering the Gen 4 in 9mm and .40 S&W, and FHP wanted a .45. To secure the contract of “about 3000 pistols,” Glock agreed to manufacture a special run of Gen 4 pistols chambered in .45 GAP.
According to Pitts, “We don’t even have a model number for these guns.” Pitts stated Glock has secured ATF approval for the new pistols, and FHP should take delivery of the new guns in “two to three months.”
It is unknown if Glock will turn these custom pistols into a regular production item. The .45 GAP has gained some popularity with law enforcement, but has not captured the shooting public’s attention. Though the GAP reproduces the ballistics of a .45 ACP in a smaller package allowing for “high capacity” .45 pistols, the relative high cost of ammunition has kept many buyers away.
Other agencies carrying the .45 GAP pistols include the Georgia State Patrol, New York State Police, Pennsylvania State Police, and South Carolina Highway Patrol. FHP is currently the only department that will have a Gen 4 .45 pistol.
Hmmm....
Business_Casual
01-25-10, 22:13
Ring, ring...
"Hey Randy, this is the Chief. Yeah, she's fine, thanks. Say, I was trying to have some bad ideas today and all I came up with was drinking and driving and dating a prostitute. What? A new Gen 4 in 45 GAP? Why, yes, that will do nicely. Thanks!"
M_P
Other than the select few large agencies that issue (force) thier troops the .45 GAP, does any one else use this round?
ColdDeadHands
01-25-10, 23:59
No thanks. I'll stick with 45 ACP.
I wonder what the motivation was behind a special run of Gen4 45GAP pistols as opposed to, say, a special run of Gen4 45 Auto pistols. The G21 has higher capacity, less recoil, and less expensive ammunition as well as a much wider variety of holsters available.
Someone at the SHOT Show did opine that Glock will drag its feet on the G21 Gen4 specifically because it could put the final nail in Gaston's pet cartridge...
What an odd choice. I wonder who's palm is getting greased.
I'm also unclear on what they find unsatisfactory about the 96 in their current use. I remember when they ditched the 92 for the 96, mostly because they wanted to keep up with the Joneses.
FHP is a really interesting agency. They are not exactly "state police" like other states have, they really are for the most part highway cops, pulling over speeders and stopping truckers. But there have also been more than a few killed in the line of duty because pulling over speeders at o-dark-thirty in a state with a large population of turd-worlders is not exactly a safe activity.
At one time IIRC they required a college degree for new hires, which was kind of rare for LE agencies on the local/county level at the time I was researching things.
I wonder what the motivation was behind a special run of Gen4 45GAP pistols as opposed to, say, a special run of Gen4 45 Auto pistols.
Todd, my guess would be grip size for female Patrol..men (can you call them "female patrolmen? if not, what the hell are they?). I have noticed a disparate number of females in FHP as compared to other LE agencies, based largely on my propensity for making contact with various LE agencies making traffic stops. :eek: ;)
Ring, ring... "Hey Randy, this is the Chief. Yeah, she's fine, thanks. Say, I was trying to have some bad ideas today and all I came up with was drinking and driving and dating a prostitute. What? A new Gen 4 in 45 GAP? Why, yes, that will do nicely. Thanks!"M_P
:D
I'm also unclear on what they find unsatisfactory about the 96 in their current use. I remember when they ditched the 92 for the 96, mostly because they wanted to keep up with the Joneses.
40SW is hard on the 96. Armorers in agencies that made the switch from the 92 to the 96 have identified increased wear and downtime and shorter lifespan of the 96. A couple of agencies that aren't in Berettas commented that if they were much happier with the 92 overall, and might even still be a Beretta customer had they not made the switch.
(Most folks didn't give the 9mm to 40SW transition true thought, and simply followed the trend.)
Ring, ring...
"Hey Randy, this is the Chief. Yeah, she's fine, thanks. Say, I was trying to have some bad ideas today and all I came up with was drinking and driving and dating a prostitute. What? A new Gen 4 in 45 GAP? Why, yes, that will do nicely. Thanks!"
M_P
Quality:D
40SW is hard on the 96. Armorers in agencies that made the switch from the 92 to the 96 have identified increased wear and downtime and shorter lifespan of the 96. A couple of agencies that aren't in Berettas commented that if they were much happier with the 92 overall, and might even still be a Beretta customer had they not made the switch.
(Most folks didn't give the 9mm to 40SW transition true thought, and simply followed the trend.)
Is USBP still using the 96? IIRC FHP made the switch around the same time as the Border Patrol.
I would be pretty shocked if FHP had encountered stress issues with the 96. Every time I get pulled over I try to convince them to come out and shoot with us and they're never interested. :D
Ring, ring...
"Hey Randy, this is the Chief. Yeah, she's fine, thanks. Say, I was trying to have some bad ideas today and all I came up with was drinking and driving and dating a prostitute. What? A new Gen 4 in 45 GAP? Why, yes, that will do nicely. Thanks!"
M_P
That made my day!
Ring, ring...
"Hey Randy, this is the Chief. Yeah, she's fine, thanks. Say, I was trying to have some bad ideas today and all I came up with was drinking and driving and dating a prostitute. What? A new Gen 4 in 45 GAP? Why, yes, that will do nicely. Thanks!"
M_P
Exactly why is this such a bad idea?
Exactly why is this such a bad idea?
As a Florida taxpayer, I can tell you I'm none too happy about paying the premium for GAP ammo.
If they genuinely believe that the 4th Gen Glock in .45 GAP is the best solution and can show empirical data to support their position then I absolutely want out Troopers to have the best tools for their jobs when it comes to defending their lives or the lives of the citizenry.
But the more I read that article the more it sounds like one bad idea stacked on another. The FHP wanted Glocks, and they wanted .45ACP. Glock came out with the 4th Gen and the brass got distracted with demanding the bright-shiny-object, to which Glock responded "ok, but you have to take our stupid proprietary cartridge that costs more to shoot and that we can't seem to sell anyone on".
FHP should have just stuck with the Glock 21, or IMHO I'd like to see them with the 20 as I think the 10mm performs about as well as can be expected of a pistol round, and better than the other standard pistol rounds, against automobiles. Which would seem to me to make sense for an agency dealing with, you know, people driving cars.
MarshallDodge
01-26-10, 10:52
Ring, ring...
"Hey Randy, this is the Chief. Yeah, she's fine, thanks. Say, I was trying to have some bad ideas today and all I came up with was drinking and driving and dating a prostitute. What? A new Gen 4 in 45 GAP? Why, yes, that will do nicely. Thanks!"
M_P
Classic! :D
My guess is that they were talked into the 45 GAP. I am betting that Glock is trying everything they can to get the cartridge off the ground and they needed a major player to help make it happen.
"No, no, no.....you don't want that 40 caliber cartridge with S&W's name on it, the 45 GAP is sooo much better." :rolleyes:
As a Florida taxpayer, I can tell you I'm none too happy about paying the premium for GAP ammo.
If they genuinely believe that the 4th Gen Glock in .45 GAP is the best solution and can show empirical data to support their position then I absolutely want out Troopers to have the best tools for their jobs when it comes to defending their lives or the lives of the citizenry.
But the more I read that article the more it sounds like one bad idea stacked on another. The FHP wanted Glocks, and they wanted .45ACP. Glock came out with the 4th Gen and the brass got distracted with demanding the bright-shiny-object, to which Glock responded "ok, but you have to take our stupid proprietary cartridge that costs more to shoot and that we can't seem to sell anyone on".
FHP should have just stuck with the Glock 21, or IMHO I'd like to see them with the 20 as I think the 10mm performs about as well as can be expected of a pistol round, and better than the other standard pistol rounds, against automobiles. Which would seem to me to make sense for an agency dealing with, you know, people driving cars.
You listened to this dialog between FHP & Glock? The FHP can handle a 10mm better than the FBI did? You know the deal the FHP got on the Glocks? Doesn't the grip on the GAP fit most peoples hand better than the standard Glock .45acp.? Is not the performance of the .45 GAP the same as the .45 acp non +P? Please enlighten us.
You listened to this dialog between FHP & Glock? The FHP can handle a 10mm better than the FBI did? You know the deal the FHP got on the Glocks? Doesn't the grip on the GAP fit most peoples hand better than the standard Glock .45acp.? Is not the performance of the .45 GAP the same as the .45 acp non +P? Please enlighten us.
Clearly an unbiased observer here, huh? :rolleyes:
You know the answers to all of your questions, yet you ramble on because....
You think this is a good solution for FHP? The custom Gen 4 .45 GAP? Why?
the 45 GAP round is one i thought was doomed from the start. while the supply for LE isnt an issue, i RARELY see a box of it at any of the big name sporting goods stores. that alone is reason for me to steer clear of it in favor of the ACP
Clearly an unbiased observer here, huh? :rolleyes:
You know the answers to all of your questions, yet you ramble on because....
You think this is a good solution for FHP? The custom Gen 4 .45 GAP? Why?
Clearly, based on your response, you're being a smart ass. If you don't like being questioned, don't post. And yes, I am an unbiased observer. I don't know if this is a good solution for FHP and I don't know that it's a bad solution either, and neither do you it seems.
NCPatrolAR
01-26-10, 12:21
On the Beretta 96 front; those guns are some of the hardest recoiling .40 pistols I've ever fired.
On the moderator front; let's stay away from personal attacks please
(can you call them "female patrolmen? if not, what the hell are they?)
Troopers, by God! Though next time a female pulls you over, try calling her a Troopette and report back to us how that goes.
Is USBP still using the 96? IIRC FHP made the switch around the same time as the Border Patrol.
Negative. BP (which is now CBP) issues HK P2000s. That change happened beginning in 2004.
INS (which at the time encompassed BP, this was all pre-DHS) adopted the 96D Brigadier in '94 if I recall correctly.
FHP adopted the 96G (I think it was a 'G') in 2001 or 2002. I was working at Beretta at the time and shared many sad lamentations with the department's head firearms guy about the dumb decision to go .40 ... even Beretta didn't actively push the 96 because of the reliability and (even moreso) durability problems.
I would be pretty shocked if FHP had encountered stress issues with the 96.
It doesn't take much. Even the most "shooting" agencies rarely wear out guns among the field workers. Instructors, SWAT, and training guns get beat up fast, though, and it's based upon that information that many make their decisions.
You listened to this dialog between FHP & Glock?
I know this was directed at Rob and as a rule I'm all for picking on Rob, but...
No, I didn't. But I did experience first hand the 9mm->.40 S&W transition, as explained above. It's very easy for me to believe the decision to go .45 GAP was based on something other than performance.
You know the deal the FHP got on the Glocks?
No, but I know the deal that the other state adopters like NYSP got (free guns; free holsters; free transition, training, & duty ammo for multiple years). I know from first hand experience how much of the farm Glock is willing to give away to get more GAP guns on the market.
Doesn't the grip on the GAP fit most peoples hand better than the standard Glock .45acp.?
Apples and oranges. A Gen4 GAP is going to fit more people than a Gen3 G21, no question. No one knows how a Gen4 G21 will fit, though, and both S&W (M&P45) and HK (HK45) have proven that it's pretty easy to make a high-cap .45 Auto that is ergonomic for the majority of shooters.
Is not the performance of the .45 GAP the same as the .45 acp non +P?
Terminal performance? Yes, assuming we're comparing the same bullet weights between the two. Perhaps Doctor Roberts will step in and further elucidate the point.
Shooting performance? No. The .45 GAP has the recoil of a .45 Auto, the flip of a 357 SIG, and the torque of the .40 S&W all rolled into one. In my experience, the same small-handed females that struggle to hold a big gun also struggle to control hard-kicking guns. The smart solution is to give them 9mms, not increasingly stouter ammo.
John_Wayne777
01-26-10, 13:37
Ring, ring...
"Hey Randy, this is the Chief. Yeah, she's fine, thanks. Say, I was trying to have some bad ideas today and all I came up with was drinking and driving and dating a prostitute. What? A new Gen 4 in 45 GAP? Why, yes, that will do nicely. Thanks!"
M_P
Now that's the quality of GAP hate I've come to expect from this forum. Nicely done.
John_Wayne777
01-26-10, 13:38
As a Florida taxpayer, I can tell you I'm none too happy about paying the premium for GAP ammo.
You may not be paying it...at least not now.
IIRC Glock basically gave a department in NY the guns, holsters, and a bunch of ammo just to get the GAP out there. It's possible they did the same thing here too.
Kentucky Cop
01-26-10, 14:19
I am not stirring the pot by any means and this IS a real question. Can you guys give me just a sentence or two on what the difference is between the Glock .45 and the Glock .45 GAP. I am really not up on this and would like to know. Our Airport guys carries one of the two and when I held their Glock .45, it was a beast in my hand. Way to big for this guy and I am 6ft. I am all ears...
Thanks! :)
i'm sure this will save the GAP round from oblivion. :o
John_Wayne777
01-26-10, 14:58
GAP stands for Glock Automatic Pistol, ostensibly an attempt at making a cartridge that provides .45 ACP terminal ballistics in a package that will still fit in 9mm/.40 sized guns like the G17 and G22. It's basically trying to put .45 ACP power in a smaller package. The ammo is ridiculously expensive and generally the market reaction to the chambering has been tepid at best.
MarshallDodge
01-26-10, 15:51
You may not be paying it...at least not now.
IIRC Glock basically gave a department in NY the guns, holsters, and a bunch of ammo just to get the GAP out there. It's possible they did the same thing here too.
That was my thinking. :cool:
I wonder what the motivation was behind a special run of Gen4 45GAP pistols as opposed to, say, a special run of Gen4 45 Auto pistols. The G21 has higher capacity, less recoil, and less expensive ammunition as well as a much wider variety of holsters available.
Someone at the SHOT Show did opine that Glock will drag its feet on the G21 Gen4 specifically because it could put the final nail in Gaston's pet cartridge...
i'm guessing the fact that they've only got molds for a small frame in Gen4 at present has something to do with it.
it's also possible that glock wants to keep the GAP alive. .. i guess it's not a terrible cartridge, but what's the point?
Alpha Sierra
01-26-10, 18:22
The FHP should have followed smart agencies into the M&P fold.
M&P357s will do a number to a car.
Business_Casual
01-26-10, 19:00
, but what's the point?
It's got his name on it.
M_P
I talked to some of the FHP guys recently at a simmunitions use of force refresher. As usual, there are mixed opinions regarding the adoption of the GAP. One instructor commented that the recoil of the 230gr load felt slightly stronger than a .40 180gr load, but didn't take you off target as badly as a .40 155gr load. Having shot the GAP in the past, that sounded very similar to my experiences. I couldn't get any hard details over the GAP adoption versus the .45acp other than FHP wanted gen 4 Glocks, they wanted it to be .45 caliber, and that other manufacturers were not to be considered.
Due to the shorter action of the GAP, the recoil isn't spread over as long of a distance as the .45acp. I think that this is the primary reason why the GAP is more snappy than the ACP. Also, I wonder if feeding will be as reliable as .40 or .45acp due to the shorter OAL of the GAP. The shorter length will make for a steeper feeding angle.
The only advantage that I can see in using it would be to make a dimensionally smaller overall grip. It should be smaller at the length, and the diagonal. I can see how this would be beneficial in reducing trigger length in DA/SA, which can be a stretch in the H&K USP for example. It could also allow for more variety of grip designs to enhance ergonomics.
Personally I am indifferent to the FHP adoption and the GAP in general. If they train well with it, I'm sure they will do well with it. If the GAP gains more market ground, then it will only expand choices for the consumer. If it goes nowhere, then I will be content with my 9mms, .40s, and .45acps.
GermanSynergy
02-19-10, 16:32
Once Glock decides to release these to the general public I'm sure they will sell as well as the current G-37s.....:p
Fire_Medic
02-19-10, 16:37
I have a friend in Orlando that works for FHP and they have been testing out different platforms/calibers for a long time now for new duty guns. They wanted a 45 in the end and they liked the Glock platform and were going to get 3rd Gen G37's but then Glock offered them the Gen 4's. The G21 they also liked but had issues with the grip fitting the most hand across the board comfortably.
This is what I was told anyways.
Just my $0.02 on the matter.
eternal24k
02-19-10, 17:21
ghey....
probably just using some 22 frames
FromMyColdDeadHand
02-19-10, 18:09
45GAP
A bad answer to a question no one asked.
"Here's free guns and an ammo contract.."
I still don't get this 'problem' of trooperettes and Broadway play fans having problems with grip size and recoil. If the answer to stopping bad guys is a 10mm or a 45ACP and you can't handle the gun those go in, too bad, I guess you weren't made for law enforcement.
Do we downrate patrol car's engines for the driving challanged?
Just seems if the 357Sig is such a good round a 40Sig bottleneck round loaded to 10mm performance is better idea than a 45GAP. Can the 45GAP fit in the chamber sideways?
Clearly, based on your response, you're being a smart ass. If you don't like being questioned, don't post. And yes, I am an unbiased observer. I don't know if this is a good solution for FHP and I don't know that it's a bad solution either, and neither do you it seems.
how can fielding a virtually untested gun in an expensive caliber be a good thing?Im really gonna hate to hear about someone getting killed because this untested gun failed at a critical point.If it works for them then more power to them but i want to see it used more before i will take a long look at it. i do have to admit they feel better int he hands. but the ammo is scarce and expensive.
ALL Gen 4's are untested. Relatively. If one had to have one, seems G22 is where to start. New Gen 4 GAP probably shares the same springs! LOL
GAP stands for Glock Automatic Pistol, ostensibly an attempt at making a cartridge that provides .45 ACP terminal ballistics in a package that will still fit in 9mm/.40 sized guns like the G17 and G22. It's basically trying to put .45 ACP power in a smaller package. The ammo is ridiculously expensive and generally the market reaction to the chambering has been tepid at best. well said this is a gap rd next to an acp rd.
http://www.tonyrogers.com/news/images/45gap_vs_45acp.jpg
Ring, ring...
"Hey Randy, this is the Chief. Yeah, she's fine, thanks. Say, I was trying to have some bad ideas today and all I came up with was drinking and driving and dating a prostitute. What? A new Gen 4 in 45 GAP? Why, yes, that will do nicely. Thanks!"
M_P
roflmao
My experience with bureaurocracies tells me this decision was from the top down. Range employees, trainers, and others had no input----so decision-making was based on Glock's data delivered over mixed drinks and bullshit.
I wonder how well the Gapper will penetrate auto glass? Will we see a +P version?
Williejc
I wonder how well the Gapper will penetrate auto glass?
Williejc
Winchester advertizes the GAP to have the same velocity as the standard pressure .45acp. It uses the exact same bullet.....so:
Winchester Ranger Bonded(standard pressure):
.45acp 230gr(905fps)BONDED: (Penetration/Expansion)
Bare Gel: 13.8”/.76”
Through Denim: 15.4”/.69”
Through Heavy Cloth: 15.4”/.71”
Through Wallboard: 14.3”/.70”
Through Plywood: 16.1”/.72”
Through Steel: 14.6”/.58”
Through Auto Glass: 12.5”/.68”
Winchester's government contract for 2010 has the .45GAP available in a 230gr Ranger Bonded loading.
This is starting to look like glocktalk.
Closed
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