View Full Version : Glock Gen 4 Glock reports coming in
called Glock earlier and someone in the tech dept had told him that they are already getting reports of malfunctioning Gen 4's and that they think that the new double spring mechanism combined with unremoved anti seize lube, combined with weaker than usual ammunition, and even the smallest amount of "limp wristing" can cause failures to feed. I KNOW. If I was reading this from one of you...I would be calling BS. But this is absolutely true.
Now they design a new stronger recoil spring for the .40 and put it in the 9mm and make it marginally functional with weak ammo and less than perfect grip...
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1175442
this is the gen4 g17:
http://i45.tinypic.com/102jnye.jpg
Sample size of 1 gun is meaningless.
ChicagoTex
01-26-10, 05:04
If you read the post the guy with the problem admits that cleaning the gun solved the problem...
I'm not seeing a reason to panic here.
Hey I have a Colt 1911 Gold Cup Trophy SS that will fail to feed if you limp wrist it, does that mean Colt is inferior? I had a Kimber custom that fell apart 250 rds in it first time on the range that was brand new (plunger tube safety assembly fell off). That is an epic failure, no longer have the Kimber. My point is, there is a difference between limp wristing, weak ammo, and parts falling off your weapon. These are issues that most guns would have if those factors were present. I want to see how it does when it hits full production and is in the hands of capable users. Most of what he describes is user error............
IrishDevil
01-26-10, 06:17
It's from GlockTalk......
Robb Jensen
01-26-10, 06:31
It's from GlockTalk......
Exactly.
OMG cleaning a new gun makes it work? That's just sacrilege. ;)
Know matter who makes a firearms, I recommend cleaning it even when new, lube it properly and shooting at least 200-500 rounds before judging it's 'reliability'.
Sigh...
All machines can and will break. All machines are not created equal. Lemons exist in all man made creations.
Someone else mentioned this already but sample size of one...seriously guys lol.
John_Wayne777
01-26-10, 08:54
Is the report correct in saying that they are using the same captured spring in the .40's and 9's?
...because to my non-firearms-engineer self that sounds like a recipe for trouble.
EzGoingKev
01-26-10, 10:48
Is the report correct in saying that they are using the same captured spring in the .40's and 9's?
...because to my non-firearms-engineer self that sounds like a recipe for trouble.
I have been wondering about that too.
It would either be good for one and either too soft or too stiff for the other. The other option is they split the difference and went with a spring rate in between.
Business_Casual
01-26-10, 10:58
Is there really that much difference between the two cartridges? They both use the SAAMI pressure spec of 35,000 CUP and launch approximately the same amount of slide mass backwards.
M_P
Is the report correct in saying that they are using the same captured spring in the .40's and 9's?
...because to my non-firearms-engineer self that sounds like a recipe for trouble.
That's how it's always been.
Glock recoil springs were universal in the previous generations across calibers. A G17, G22, and G31 all use the same spring.
Although, I guess increasing the spring rate to fix the .40 issues might result in problems with the 9, which worked fine to begin with.
Whatever the case, I'm not too concerned.
Is the report correct in saying that they are using the same captured spring in the .40's and 9's?
...because to my non-firearms-engineer self that sounds like a recipe for trouble.
Always been that way, I did replace my recoil springs at a 2 to one rate with my 40 cal and 9mm's to try and prevent any issues before they happen.
Is there really that much difference between the two cartridges? They both use the SAAMI pressure spec of 35,000 CUP and launch approximately the same amount of slide mass backwards.
Slide velocity of the .40 is generally much faster since it's pushing a heavier projectile at about the same speed. A lot of this depends on the ammo, of course, since you can get .40-cal ammo ranging everywhere from "Reduced Recoil" 165s to over-the-top 155gr and 180gr loads.
Exactly.
OMG cleaning a new gun makes it work? That's just sacrilege. ;)
Know matter who makes a firearms, I recommend cleaning it even when new, lube it properly and shooting at least 200-500 rounds before judging it's 'reliability'.
well according to what the guy said glock told him:
even if you clean off the anti seize lube, you're still left with a stiff recoil spring that might not cycle the slide properly with less hot 9mm & is highly sensitive to limp wristing.
if this is true, then you need to "break in" the g17 gen4's recoil spring before it works reliably?
this is not a good thing.
(again, this is assuming glock actually did tell the guy this)
John_Wayne777
01-26-10, 13:34
I'm not a Glock expert, but:
It seems to me that 9mm Glocks have always had their best reliability with +P 9mm ammo. If you design a gun to run reliably and for a long time with +P and "+P+" 9mm ammo then it might well lead to less than ideal performance with milder 9mm ammo.
You all take this stuff to personal. You should get off glocks nutts....
I had a Glock 19 once. Fired it about 40 times and got bored. Traded for a real gun.....SS Ruger Vaquero in 45LC.
well according to what the guy said glock told him:
even if you clean off the anti seize lube, you're still left with a stiff recoil spring that might not cycle the slide properly with less hot 9mm & is highly sensitive to limp wristing.
if this is true, then you need to "break in" the g17 gen4's recoil spring before it works reliably?
this is not a good thing.
(again, this is assuming glock actually did tell the guy this)
Conjecture and speculative are 2 good words for this thread. I heard about a guy from another guy who wrote something on the internet.
Conjecture and speculative are 2 good words for this thread. I heard about a guy from another guy who wrote something on the internet.
well i'm not sure why someone would take a pic of their gen4 glock falsely having problems, then concoct a story about calling glock....what would be the point of that? :confused:
I'm not a Glock expert, but:
It seems to me that 9mm Glocks have always had their best reliability with +P 9mm ammo. If you design a gun to run reliably and for a long time with +P and "+P+" 9mm ammo then it might well lead to less than ideal performance with milder 9mm ammo.
The 9 mm glocks have always liked relatively hot ammunition for best functioning.
In theory:
Tipical combat loads in the 40 S&W have about 20-25% recoil impulse than 9x19 loads. Since the slide+barrel mass in the 40 and 9 mm glocks is very similar, and they use the same recoil spring, the design is biased towards hot 9 mm loads and relatively milder 40 loads.
Heavier recoil springs are of relatively minor importance to curb slide velocity, and have their downsides. IMO glock should increase the barrel + slide mass in the 40, that is the most important factor. Heck, they should have a different spring too. I don't get the "one size fits all" approach.
Recoil springs last fewer rounds with higher slide velocities (40 S&W).
Frame takes a beating in the 40 too (it has to absorb more remaining energy at the end of the slide stroke). The new dual spring combo will help with the 40, but may increase the odds of limp wristing in the nine.
With higher slide velocity the magazine condition and its springs are also very critical, the 40 is less forgiving than the 9x19.
In any case, the 9 mm clocks have always been VERY reliable with hot ammo, and tolerate extensive use of hot loads that many older designs don't like. Most defensive JHP loads, and NATO ball, are well above the milder practice loads.
Brother, you must be new to the InterWeb...
well i'm not sure why someone would take a pic of their gen4 glock falsely having problems, then concoct a story about calling glock....what would be the point of that? :confused:
Brother, you must be new to the InterWeb...
lol i'm just thinking about it in sensical terms. what would he have to gain by making all that up? besides, anyone can call glock if they wanted to verify the issues are happening (i don't care enough to call)....
and just so you know, i've been on the internet since al gore invented it 10 years ago :eek: :p
You all take this stuff to personal. You should get off glocks nutts....
I had a Glock 19 once. Fired it about 40 times and got bored. Traded for a real gun.....SS Ruger Vaquero in 45LC.
Implying a Ruger Vaquero is any more of a real gun than a Glock 19 or any other handgun for that matter.
Implying a Ruger Vaquero is any more of a real gun than a Glock 19 or any other handgun for that matter.
i had a ruger bisley vaquero 45LC. the cylinder binded up every time i took it to the range.
sold it.
I'm not a Glock expert, but:
It seems to me that 9mm Glocks have always had their best reliability with +P 9mm ammo.
Really?
My 19 has run the past ~15k rounds without a hitch, and 97% of that has been Remington UMC 115gr target loads.
I would have never guessed that they didn't run just fine with standard pressure ammo.
Its still too early to tell. I like others have my doubts but we'll all be able to make a better determination once more Gen4 G17's get into people's hands. But I am guessing most G17 fans would have been just fine if they left the G17 recoil spring alone and just changed it for the G22. I certainly do.
Littlelebowski
01-26-10, 18:36
You all take this stuff to personal. You should get off glocks nutts....
I had a Glock 19 once. Fired it about 40 times and got bored. Traded for a real gun.....SS Ruger Vaquero in 45LC.
You're not going to last here.
SWATcop556
01-26-10, 19:22
Why mess with perfection!! :cool:
All joking aside I think they should have left the 9mm models alone. Fix the ones that are having the problems.
I had a Glock 19 once. Fired it about 40 times and got bored. Traded for a real gun.....SS Ruger Vaquero in 45LC.
I have a small crank, too, but like fighter pilots, I just wear a big watch.
I had a Glock 19 once. Fired it about 40 times and got bored. Traded for a real gun.....SS Ruger Vaquero in 45LC.
I would like to appologize on glock's behalf for being boringly reliable :rolleyes:
Sort of off topic, will Glock continue to manufacture the Generation 3 style pistols?
Robb Jensen
02-13-10, 18:06
Sort of off topic, will Glock continue to manufacture the Generation 3 style pistols?
For the meantime yes.
Really?
My 19 has run the past ~15k rounds without a hitch, and 97% of that has been Remington UMC 115gr target loads.
I would have never guessed that they didn't run just fine with standard pressure ammo.
yeah i've only had issues with the lightest of handloads.
any factory 9mm or 9mm +P+ (and i've shot quite a bit of it) has been flawless.
we'll have to see how this new "issue" plays out i guess.. i still have no desire for a 40 cal...
High Tower
02-14-10, 14:14
I had a customer want to return his Gen 4 Glock 17 because it was jamming. I took it on the range and shot 10 rounds of Winchester white box with no problem.
Me thinks many of these complaints are issues other than the gun itself.
it's from GlockTalk......
Exactly.
OMG cleaning a new gun makes it work? That's just sacrilege.
Know matter who makes a firearms, I recommend cleaning it even when new, lube it properly and shooting at least 200-500 rounds before judging it's 'reliability'.
I can't even come up with a sarcastic remark that expresses my disdain for that site. I was banned for pointing out a guy who was flipping items between sites and had already been banned from several airsoft sites for scamming buyers. :rolleyes:
Robb Jensen
02-14-10, 14:42
This morning I fired 500 rounds through my Glock 22 Gen 4. It ran 100%. I have a burn blister on my support hand, a sore knuckle on my shooting hand middle finger from the triggerguard.
What I shot:
50 rounds of Magtech 180gr CleanRange
50 rounds of Winchester 180gr FMJ
100 rounds of American Eagle 180 FMJ
150 rounds of Atlanta Arms Ammo 180gr TCJ (minor power factor stuff)
150 rounds of Magtech 180gr FMC
The pistol ran great. It's also very accurate and to 25yds my Warrens are dead nuts on. At 50yds I was pulling the groups slightly left but elevation wise the groups were still at the same height as at 25yds.
With the Atlanta Arms 180gr minor loads the pistol recoils even less than my S&W M&P Pro with subsonic 147gr and 158gr loads. It felt very odd at first but I could actually feel the pistol going back into battery but at the same moment I could see that the sights were where they needed to be for the next shot. The sights almost don't lift at all with these really light loads. It's happening in miliseconds and takes a little getting used to.
What I find truly amazing is that there are no peening marks from the locking block like on Gen 2 and Gen 3 Glock .40s. I also got the gun so hot that the slide stop burned my support hand pretty good.
So far extremely happy with this pistol. I think Glock did a great job with the improvements. I really like the new mag catch too.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/Glock22.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/Glock222.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/Glock223.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/Glock224.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/Glock225.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/Glock226.jpg
Heavy Metal
02-14-10, 16:37
Slide-Bite?
Robb Jensen
02-14-10, 16:41
Slide-Bite?
No, pistol got way hot and the slide stop burned me 2nd degree burn.
Heavy Metal
02-14-10, 16:47
Wow! How many mags did it take to do that?
Robb Jensen
02-14-10, 17:07
Wow! How many mags did it take to do that?
I used the 3 mags that came with the gun. Shot 500 rounds in about 80 minutes.
Recently I decided to get a Glock 17. Last week I had the choice of 3 G17's; regular texture grip, RTF and gen 4. I was thinking much same way many of you have been, i.e., why mess with a good thing? Get a regular G17. But after handling all three I went with the gen 4. I liked:
1) the grip treatment
2) adjustable grip [large for me]
3) new mag release
4) I trust Glock not to screw up a 9mm
I only have had time to put 50 rounds through it. The first mag was kind of rough, bang - clear, bang - clear, just to stiff for my moderate power loads [124gr. ball @ 1090fps. After the first mag it broke in and no more jams or malfunctions. I have a good solid grip, I could see where a looser grip might cause problems. Overall positive after a brief session.
SWATcop556
02-14-10, 17:30
I used the 3 mags that came with the gun. Shot 500 rounds in about 80 minutes.
That's why you get to be on the Magpul DVDs! :cool:
Glad to see the new guns seem to be an improvement. Keep us posted on the progress.
MadcapMagician
02-14-10, 17:44
My favorite feature of the new generations is the magazine release.
Fire_Medic
02-14-10, 19:29
The Gen 3's all use the same recoil spring/guide rod combo(17# Spring) so I don't see why this would all of a sudden be an issue with the Gen 4's......
As for the issue with the pistol , as has already been stated check out the source first. What's the guys background, is this his first pistol, first Glock, etc, his experience would have a lot to do with the reliability of his claims.
A bit off topic.....I thought you were supposed to let the anti-seize stuff "shoot itself" away....
SWATcop556
02-14-10, 22:45
The reason the 40 cal had problems was the spring was too light but it was the correct spring for the 9mm. Now a heavier spring will fix the 40's but might be to heavy for the 9mm.
Glock should have left the springs in the 9mm alone and just fixed the 40.
The Gen 3's all use the same recoil spring/guide rod combo(17# Spring) so I don't see why this would all of a sudden be an issue with the Gen 4's......
As for the issue with the pistol , as has already been stated check out the source first. What's the guys background, is this his first pistol, first Glock, etc, his experience would have a lot to do with the reliability of his claims.
There are a couple of reports of G17 Gen 4 issues on the 10-8 forums.
Glock 22 Gen 4 Testing
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=89150&an=0&page=0#89150
G34Shooter
02-15-10, 15:01
You all take this stuff to personal. You should get off glocks nutts....
I had a Glock 19 once. Fired it about 40 times and got bored. Traded for a real gun.....SS Ruger Vaquero in 45LC.
L O L
that's a bit disturbing... this is the first 9mm glock in history that doesn't run 100% right out of the box..
i think a softer recoil spring is in order here.
that's a bit disturbing... this is the first 9mm glock in history that doesn't run 100% right out of the box..
i think a softer recoil spring is in order here.
I think you may be proven right, they may have to use just a little lighter poundage recoil spring assembly to accomodate the lower powered 9mm ammo that a lot of people use at the range. But then, will that create any issues with the .40 cal pistols? We shall see.
Hopefully the recoil spring will weaken after a few more rounds to allow the weaker ammo to be shot reliably..but it would be interesting if Glock perfected the G22 and in the process screwed the pooch with the G17?
Lastly, have you noticed any improvements in accuracy with the Gen 4 G17?
And as a quick aside:
I'm curious, the USP and the USPc were designed for the .40, but 9mm iterations work very well. Does HK use lighter springs in the 9mm USP's?
Robb Jensen
02-15-10, 20:45
I think you may be proven right, they may have to use just a little lighter poundage recoil spring assembly to accomodate the lower powered 9mm ammo that a lot of people use at the range. But then, will that create any issues with the .40 cal pistols? We shall see.
Glock should just have different recoil springs for 9mm Glocks vs. everything else.
My next 1K rounds through my Glock 22 Gen 4 will be with a Surefire X300 mounted to see if that may make it choke, but I highly doubt that it will. I wish I could find one of those heavy ass Surefires the USMC used to use to test it out on this Glock.
SeriousStudent
02-15-10, 21:30
..... I wish I could find one of those heavy ass Surefires the USMC used to use to test it out on this Glock.
*cough* Riverine? *cough*
:D
Does the top Littlelebowski photo say GLOGK?;)
Robb Jensen
02-15-10, 22:02
*cough* Riverine? *cough*
:D
If anyone including Riverine has one I'd like to just borrow it for my testing. It doesn't even have to work. I just need it to hang onto my Glock 22 to see if the gun doesn't anything weird.
Glock should just have different recoil springs for 9mm Glocks vs. everything else.
My next 1K rounds through my Glock 22 Gen 4 will be with a Surefire X300 mounted to see if that may make it choke, but I highly doubt that it will. I wish I could find one of those heavy ass Surefires the USMC used to use to test it out on this Glock.
that's what i'm thinking...
i'm all about parts compatibility between models, but why woudn't they use a different recoil spring, especially considering slide weights are virtually identical.
i'm guessing glock is going to do one of their "silent recalls" where they change the parts in all the new production guns, and if anyone sends their gun back, puts the right parts in.
it's a bit disappointing that they messed up their 9mm's though. 9mm is glock's flagship really. I'm confident that the gen 4's will prove to be excellent guns once the bugs are worked out though.
Hopefully the recoil spring will weaken after a few more rounds to allow the weaker ammo to be shot reliably..but it would be interesting if Glock perfected the G22 and in the process screwed the pooch with the G17?
Lastly, have you noticed any improvements in accuracy with the Gen 4 G17?
And as a quick aside:
I'm curious, the USP and the USPc were designed for the .40, but 9mm iterations work very well. Does HK use lighter springs in the 9mm USP's?
just did a little poking around, it appears that USP 9 and 40 recoil springs ARE different. it seems like HK makes a lot more changes between calibers than glock tends to.
Robb Jensen
02-16-10, 07:34
One wonders if a 3rd gen G17 spring will fit in the G4...
I get that Glock wants to keep costs down by using as many of the same parts as possible, but somewhere in the company there has to be at least some recognition that different calibers might need different recoil springs to function properly.
It won't. The Gen 4s slide is machined differently below the muzzle. Too large for a Gen 1/2/3 recoil spring. Once Wolff makes a non-captured guide rod for the Gen 4s I'll buy one and a Glock 17 Gen 4. The Gen 4 spring in a Glock 17 Gen 4 is fine with NATO pressure and +P ammo. With much SAAMI pressure ammo it's a bit too stout.
It does feel good in .40 however.
G34Shooter
02-16-10, 07:37
I guess I'll pass on a 4G G17 until this gets resolved :mad:
that's a bit disturbing... this is the first 9mm glock in history that doesn't run 100% right out of the box..
Well, I had a few Glock 19s that had minor problems back in the day. The old 10 round mags were no help. They were fixed when I upgraded magazine springs, or bought the new generations of magazines, or maybe it was just a break in period :).
Wasn't there some speculation that going to the same power spring for the G23 and G19 contributed to the G19 problems in the early to mid-90s, NYPD phase 3 malfunctions and all that? Glock ended up tweaking the G19 design a bit, and improving mags as well.
My 19s worked great once I tweaked the mags or shot them enough. I have one with 6,000 rounds through it now. And my new G17s, one Gen 3, one RTF2, have not had any malfunctions whatsoever in a combined 3,000 rounds, including 200 each of my carry load.
In any case I plan to pick up a G17 Gen 4 and try it out. My carry ammo is +P. I'll keep my other not so old other G17s, though.
Be nice if Glock would just tune the springs for the caliber from the beginning.
Littlelebowski
02-16-10, 11:17
Also, forgot to note that the FTFs seemed always have the round nose up on the left hand side of the feedramp.
SWATcop556
02-16-10, 11:52
Also, forgot to note that the FTFs seemed always have the round nose up on the left hand side of the feedramp.
Looks very similar to the malfunctions my old G22 use to have. Keep us posted on how it runs after the "break in."
Hadn't given it any thought, but just realized all of my rounds to date have been with a light attached. Perhaps my next 500 or so rounds will be sans light. Doubt it'll make much of a difference though. Hope Wolf gets on this fast!
Glock should just have different recoil springs for 9mm Glocks vs. everything else.
My next 1K rounds through my Glock 22 Gen 4 will be with a Surefire X300 mounted to see if that may make it choke, but I highly doubt that it will. I wish I could find one of those heavy ass Surefires the USMC used to use to test it out on this Glock.
I'm not a Glock expert, but:
It seems to me that 9mm Glocks have always had their best reliability with +P 9mm ammo. If you design a gun to run reliably and for a long time with +P and "+P+" 9mm ammo then it might well lead to less than ideal performance with milder 9mm ammo.
That has certainly been my experience anecdotally over about 12 years and several 9mm Glocks (Gen 2 and Gen 3). The only malfunctions I've had occurred while using mousefart loads like the Walmart Winchester 115gr 100 round value packs.
Never have had issues when using +P or +P+ or any of the "hotter" regular pressure loads like S&B or Winchester NATO ammo, or even Federal American Eagle.
Any problems I had with my Gen 2 and Gen 3 G19s were with regular pressure 9mm, not +P.
So if I am correct:
The Gen4 Glock 22s are running great while the Gen4 Glock 17s are having issues?
Littlelebowski
02-17-10, 19:52
So if I am correct:
The Gen4 Glock 22s are running great while the Gen4 Glock 17s are having issues?
Be careful with attempting to neatly summarize things when you have so little data.
I just bought a Gen4 17, I'll be running it next week. Hopefully it'll run without a hiccup :)
*cough* Riverine? *cough*
:D
LOL
Robb, I'm on the road (San Antonio/Pendleton/Jefferson Proving Ground) until 10 March. Once I get back, I think it's very likely I can get my dickskinners on one so that WE *hack* hint hint *lung-oyster* can give it a whirl, if it's what I think you're talking about.
There isn't a standard pistol light in the Corps, unless you count the PEQ-6, of which 3000 were bought for Security Forces and is kind of clown-shoes, these days. We were looking at the PEQ-14 (an Insight product), but never got any except to test. Individual units have purchased lights with their own funds, and consequently it's like M&Ms in a bag out in The Fleet, but we have some stuff on hand at our shop.
PM me.
SeriousStudent
02-17-10, 20:40
See????
I wuz just trying to hook a brother up...... :D
Have a safe trip!
just did a little poking around, it appears that USP 9 and 40 recoil springs ARE different. it seems like HK makes a lot more changes between calibers than glock tends to.
that is significant and speaks volumes..thanks for taking a look
Glock needs to pay a bit more attention to detail me thinks
Also, forgot to note that the FTFs seemed always have the round nose up on the left hand side of the feedramp.
Glock mags can have a tendency to rotate counterclockwise in the mag well, a degree or so off center line, I think it is due to the mag release bit that engages the mag divot pushing on the mag from right to left, and as a result the rounds do tend to hit slightly left on the feed ramp. I wonder if this factor is in play here at all.
That has certainly been my experience anecdotally over about 12 years and several 9mm Glocks (Gen 2 and Gen 3). The only malfunctions I've had occurred while using mousefart loads like the Walmart Winchester 115gr 100 round value packs.
Never have had issues when using +P or +P+ or any of the "hotter" regular pressure loads like S&B or Winchester NATO ammo, or even Federal American Eagle.
This was true in the older Glock 17s, however in my testing here in 2006 I found the newer style frame guns worked even with seriously underpowered ammo. My G17, and several others that I tested, will feed and function with such rounds as CCI snake shot, the Aguila "IQ" ammo, 88gr Remington 9mm, 158gr IMI sub-sonic stuff, etc. Thankfully these guns also ran fine with 127gr +P+ Ranger-T, 124gr +P Gold Dot and some L7A1 I had laying around.
MY worry is that Glock, once again, fixed something that wasn't broke. The 3rd gen G17 is, IMHO, the most reliable and durable service pistol ever made. They should have left the 9mms alone while fixing the issues with the .40s.
I'm not sure why Glock has such a weird OCD thing going on that requires their 9mms and .40s/.357s to have the same recoil spring, but if that really wanted that they should have just chambered the GAP guns in .40
Robb Jensen
02-18-10, 06:44
So if I am correct:
The Gen4 Glock 22s are running great while the Gen4 Glock 17s are having issues?
It's looking that way but we don't have enough data to say that definitively.
It's my opinion currently that Glock should have just used a Glock 17 Gen 3 upper on a Gen 4 frame. This opinion may change in the future when I see data.
Wayne Dobbs
02-18-10, 08:54
It looks like we need a proper test conducted with repeatable methodology and using a statistically valid number of guns and loads. I'm glad I have three of the Gen 3 G-17s in the safe. They are the most reliable service guns I've ever seen over more than 30 years of serious pistol shooting, carrying and training.
This thread reminds me of a story my brother in law told me:
He was working for Chrysler, in Mexico, (non-union, hard working) and he said that every time they brought out a new car model, the had growing pains.
Year One was figuring out designs flaws with the vehicles.
Year Two, they refined the vehicle.
Year Three, they start looking at where they can start cutting corners and make more money on the product.
Never buy first year.
Continuing on with that, it should come as no surprise to anyone that there are problems with the first of the fourth generation Glock. Sure, you would think that Glock would R&D their products ad nauseam, but the gun/small arms industry is a much smaller industry than most people realize.
Lets compare a major defense contractor with a small arms company: I looked up the sales reports for General Dynamics for 08 and they showed a net sales of Twenty One Billion Two Hundred Forty Four Million dollars. Of that, most R&D was said to be built into the overhead of military systems costs, and therefore not disclosed. The numbers they did list in R&D amounted to Five Hundred and Fifty Million in R&D for commercial Gulfstream aircraft and various technology issues. I could not find numbers for Glock, but by comparison, Smith and Wesson had over Three Hundred and Fifty Million in sales for 08. So, GD's R&D budget for its lower priority programs amounts to Two Hundred Million more dollars than the yearly sales of Smith and Wesson.
21, 244, 000, 000, 000 GD Annl. Sales (right number of zeros?)
550, 000, 000 GD R&D
350, 000, 000 S&W Annl. Sales
I've been involved with corporate and government efforts before and the press and public have a WAY overinflated picture of people that are making things happens on the world stage. Do you think Gaston Glock is personally leading a group of motivated scientists with unlimited resources in a scene reminiscent of "The Right Stuff?" (Are any of you old enough to remember that movie?) No, the engineers do their best to come up with what they think will work, then end-user knuckle draggers, like us, field test the gear and do our best to break it.
In summary, I think it is evident that the GOV doesn't give two shits about small arms development, and that we, along with the gun manufacturers, are the ultimate R&D department. Hell, look at how the 6.8 got started. Look at it as a partnership between yourself and Glock-they make it, you break it! Too bad they don't PAY YOU to do it.
Just ran some ammo through my Gen 4 without incident. I used 115 gr federal, 124 gr american eagle and 147 gr winchester wb hp. Not enough rounds of either type to be definitive, but I'm heading to the range this weekend to do a more thorough test.:D Will post report.
It's looking that way but we don't have enough data to say that definitively.
True. I'm not surprised but yet I'm encouraged. As rare as problematic earlier G17s are, what we're hearing this early seems significant to me. But we're also hearing experienced shooters report the Gen 4 9mm is incredibly flat handling in recoil and this on top of the good mag release and grip dimension changes might make for something special when either the spring breaks in or it's tweaked.
Could Glock really have f'ed up the G-17? Hard to imagine even though I'm not a Glock Perfection kind of guy. I'm picking up a blue label G-17 and G-22 Gen 4 tomorrow at Glockmeister and shoot a few hundred rounds each saturday so I can add my data points to the mix. I'm hard pressed to think of any 9mm Glock I have had a feeding issue or any issues with.
I guess they could have, but at this point I believe its to early to tell for sure about the Gen 4 9mm pistols.
Picked up a Gen4 17 and 22 blue label the other day. Went to the range today, mid '20s with snow on the ground. Put 250rds. through the G22 and 422rds. through the G17. Not one single issue with either. No FTEs or FTFs. Ammo used was Winchester White Box FMJ in both, 180gr. in the .40 and 115gr. in the 9mm.
The first 300rds in the G17 I shot without a light and the last 100 or so I shot with my Surefire X300 attached. With the G22 I only shot the last 50rds with the X300 attached. No issues with the light attached either.
Forgot to bring some hollowpoints in 9mm other than the 19rds of Speer GD 147gr. that I already had in the 17+2 mag, I went ahead and shot them with no issue too. Don't have any .40 hollowpoint ammo yet, most of my investment is in 9mm and .38Spl.
Its been awhile since I shot a .40 so it "felt" snappy obviously compared to the 9mm. The G17 was a pussycat with very good accuracy results. The G22 was slightly worse which I attribute to the recoil, plus I shot it last after two other pistols in 20 degree weather, that takes a toll on you.
Here's some pics.....
G17 on top, G22 w/X300 bottom
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/001193.JPG
G22 w/X300, I had to put on 2 different bandaids (cracked dry skin in web of hand and trigger finger, DANG it was COLD!)
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/01367.JPG
SICK of snow!
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/01167.JPG
All the kids that got to play today
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/009118.JPG
Business_Casual
02-18-10, 21:45
I think I speak for all of us when I say...
A Ruger? WTF?
:p
M_P
M_P,
Yeah, I need to explain that I guess.:o
I found that for a damn good price on Auction Arms. Its a P89DAO. Picked it up at my FFL yesterday and when I got it home found out it was NIB unfired. The description said it was slightly used.
My agency issues these and they're not take home guns so I wanted my own to stay proficient, plus I just made Firearms Instructor and thought that would also be a good reason to have one.
As "un-graceful" as they are they do shoot good once your used to the trigger and they never have issues. Its one of those "yeah there's better out there but we really can't complain about them" times
Robb Jensen
02-18-10, 22:09
Tonight I shot 250 round through my Glock 22 Gen 4 with a Surefire X300 attached. No problems of any sort.
100 rounds of burgundy box Federal 180gr FMJ (Wal-Mart stuff)
50 rounds Winchester Ranger 180 Bonded JHP
50 rounds Magtech 180gr FMJ
50 rounds PMC Bronze 180 FMJ
Jay Cunningham
02-19-10, 07:05
Tonight I shot 250 round through my Glock 22 Gen 4 with a Surefire X300 attached. No problems of any sort.
100 rounds of burgundy box Federal 180gr FMJ (Wal-Mart stuff)
50 rounds Winchester Ranger 180 Bonded JHP
50 rounds Magtech 180gr FMJ
50 rounds PMC Bronze 180 FMJ
You mean... we shouldn't all panic yet???
:D
Moose-Knuckle
02-19-10, 08:29
It's my opinion currently that Glock should have just used a Glock 17 Gen 3 upper on a Gen 4 frame. This opinion may change in the future when I see data.
The question begs to be asked....
Can a Gen 3 G17 slide fit and run on a Gen 4 G17 frame?
From everything I have read / seen on the boards it appears that the Gen 4 G17 creates more problems than it solves. I'm still on the fence with the Gen 4 9mms, I have a Gen 3 G19 and G17 but I like the idea of the interchangeable back straps for my Fiancé as her hands are much smaller than mine.
Fire_Medic
02-19-10, 10:51
The question begs to be asked....
Can a Gen 3 G17 slide fit and run on a Gen 4 G17 frame?
From everything I have read / seen on the boards it appears that the Gen 4 G17 creates more problems than it solves. I'm still on the fence with the Gen 4 9mms, I have a Gen 3 G19 and G17 but I like the idea of the interchangeable back straps for my Fiancé as her hands are much smaller than mine.
The Gen 3 slide "shouldn't" work on a Gen 4 frame because the recoil rod/spring assembly on both are different and the insides are the frame are different to accommodate for this.
Wish they would make OD Gen 4's.
I got to the range today with my new gen 4 G17. NO drama to report.
My gun ran fine with 115gr WWB, Ranger, Winclean and PMC, 124gr Blazer and Federal AE, 124gr +P Gold Dot and Ranger-T, 147gr Blazer and Ranger-T.
The only ammo to give any issues was some lead free 105gr SP Winchester stuff I had on hand, and some of the older PMC, both felt very low recoil/low impulse, and would stovepipe or fails-to-feed if my grip wasn't perfect.
The duty ammo ran fine even from my patented limp wrist/limp grip mess with the gun grip.
Standard grip is smaller and a bit rougher than a gen 3 geun, recoil spring is obviosuly stiffer when you hand cycle the slide, mag catch is bigger (I actually prefer the old style cathc, but YMMV) everything else is what one would expect from a Glock 9mm.
Recoil was noticably lighter in my hands (I find recoil to be terribly subjective) with +p 124gr loads feeling like standard velocity ammo fired from agen 3 gun.
I'm going to try and make it to a TDSA AP-1 course in March to really wring the gun out.
Wish they would make OD Gen 4's.
Duracoat.
Just sayin.
will gen 4 glocks still fit in holsters made for gne 3's? I am mostly thinking about the mag catch. I would hate to have to spend the $$$ on new Versa Max 2's ...
Robb Jensen
02-20-10, 08:07
The question begs to be asked....
Can a Gen 3 G17 slide fit and run on a Gen 4 G17 frame?
From everything I have read / seen on the boards it appears that the Gen 4 G17 creates more problems than it solves. I'm still on the fence with the Gen 4 9mms, I have a Gen 3 G19 and G17 but I like the idea of the interchangeable back straps for my Fiancé as her hands are much smaller than mine.
Yesterday at work I was able to put a Gen 3 complete upper on a Gen 4 frame. It seemed to dryfire and I could hand cycle it just fine. The cutout in the front end of the frame on the Gen 4 frame is wider for it's recoil spring. I don't know if this would effect things if the Gen 3 upper were used on it.
will gen 4 glocks still fit in holsters made for gne 3's? I am mostly thinking about the mag catch. I would hate to have to spend the $$$ on new Versa Max 2's ...
It fits my Safariland ALS paddle that I use at work for my Glock 17. I carry the Glock Gen 4 at work now in it. One of my co-workers carries his in a Blade-Tech kydex belt holster (made for a Glock 17) with no issues.
Glock G22 Gen 4/ Field Report 19 Feb 2010
Intro: On 19 Feb 2010, I got the chance to put approximately 100 rounds down range. 50 rounds of 180g Speer TMC and 50 180g Speer Gold Dots. The gun was a personally owned officers’ pistol and had be fitted with the NY 1 trigger and the standard 5.5 connector. The weapon had 3 dot tritium sights. I did not mount a light and I did not present from a holster.
Recoil: The weapons’ “felt recoil” is clearly less that that of a Gen 2 or 3 G22. It is a bit less than a Gen 3 G35, my typical .40 cal carry platform. As other have reported, the impulse is more of a push and less of a twisting snap in relation to previous generations of G22s. Moreover, it seemed to cycle markedly slower than either a Gen 2/3 G22 or even a Gen 3 G35. I shot a series of 3 to 6 rd “bursts” and at 5 yds, I kept everything within an 8 inch plate. During a couple of the “bursts“, I felt like I was waiting on the gun to finish its cycle and that I was ahead of the gun and ready to shoot.
Texturing: I found the texturing to be rather aggressive. In fact, for my hand, it would be an impediment to shooting in a high round count training scenario. I found the texture to be much more abrasive than my own stipple jobs.
Size: I have a relatively large hand and have no problems with the Gen 2/3 series G22. Having said that, the Gen 4 feels “better” and seems to be easier to engage the trigger without having the trigger finger contact the side of the weapon. I did not shoot the weapon with either of the additional add on backstraps.
Mag Release: In a word- huge. I typically run an extended mag release that I have reduced and textured myself. The gen 4 mag release is very easy to manipulate and easily has 4x the bearing surface of any Gen 2/3 release.
Preliminary Conclusions: if you are in the market for a G22 and are already a Glock Fan, buy it. If you otherwise liked the platform but felt like it was just too big,
it would be worth it to shoot this gun before writing the platform off. If you are not a Glock fan, The changes are not enough to make you want to buy a Gen 4.
Ramblings: I shoot a .40 cal platform because the agencies with whom I frequently train shoot .40 cal. My Gen 3 G35 fills that niche. Should they make a Gen 4 G35, I would likely buy to have a back up .40 cal Glock. However, I am much more intrigued by the Gen 4 G17. Should that platform be deemed reliable with moderately powered 9mm loadings, you would have a pistol that would be really easy to shoot well and rapidly.
Data is starting to come in which suggests the Gen 4 G17 is over sprung.
I think that many would be intrigued re an even softer shooting G21 in a Gen 4 G21 as well. My WAG (wild ass guess) is that we will not see a Gen 4 G21 until late in a year (be it 2010 or 2011) in a run up to the SHOT Show.
YMMV Greatly,
David of vcdgrips.com
varoadking
02-20-10, 13:55
From everything I have read / seen on the boards it appears that the Gen 4 G17 creates more problems than it solves.
218 rounds of Winchester White Box 115 grain through my brand new Gen4 G17 today. Nary a bobble, burp or bump. I guess I must have gotten one of the scarce good ones... ;)
I was shooting the Gen4 well, though not as well as I'd like. I imagine it'll grow on me, as I'm more used to shooting a Gen 3 G22...
For me, the "SF" grip is much more comfortable than my Gen3 G17, which has been relegated to a dedicated Advantage Arms .22lr conversion host.
The new magazine release is terrific. The accoustics seem somewhat different with the new slide design...maybe it's just been a while since I've shot any 9mm...
I personally think Glock has hit a home run with the Gen 4...
Sorry - no pictures.... :D
Took my new Gen 4 G17 out yesterday. It was 77 degrees and clear skies in Phoenix...:D
300 Rounds of the cheapo Federal 9mm from Wal-Mart plus 40 rounds of Corbon DPX, my current favorite carry round. Not a single issue of any kind. The pistol was straight out of the box. I normally clean and lube new Glocks before shooting but did not do so this time on purpose. Love the new mag release, love the new texturing. Easy to reach the mag release without moving my grip which is long overdue for Glocks. The trigger pull feels a little stronger is the best way to put it and maybe a little harder to shoot well until I get used to it.
I see it as an improvement but not one that will stop migrations to M&P's and things other than Glock.
Well, I took my Gen 4 17 out today and fired 50 rds of BH 124+p, 50 rds of XM9001 115 +P, 200 rds of WW 115 FMJ, and 50 rds of my normal 124gr XTP handload running at about 1150fps.
From an older mag I had one FTE with the handload and that was early in the session. This same handload has been flawless in my prior generation Glocks.
The ejection pattern was generally acceptable, but with the cases thrown about half as far as my Gen 3 or 2's. Quite a few landed beside my right foot.
It seemed to throw the cases a bit further as the session progressed.
I love the grip texture. The mag release is no beter than a TD one on a Gen 3. I do believe that the effective spring force is higher than on the old Gen 1's.
I would be surprised if they don't come out with a pound or two lighter spring assembly eventually.
Planning on putting a few hundred more rounds through it tomorrow........
brushy bill
02-20-10, 19:32
SPR1, copy you had only one failure during your course of fire?
Mine fits fine in both my duty and off-duty ALS system holsters, I forget the models numbers on these off the top of my head.
Heavy Metal
02-20-10, 21:07
Duracoat.
Just sayin.
I'll wait till they mold some OD frames.
brushy bill,
Yes, one failure to fire. It really disgusted me, as that is only the fourth failure I have had in 24 years of shooting Glock 17's. With Gen 1 Glocks, I had one failure to feed with that lame 147gr OTM WW, and one failure to chamber with a reload with about 10 cycles on the case (this one really does not count), and with a gen 2, I had a firing pin channel totally clogged with brass shavings (in my beater piece) and had a failure to fire, totally my fault due to lack of maintenance on that one.
It may take a while for me to trust this one as much as prior generations.
I had the opportunity to participate in the first 200 round break in of a Gen 4 G17 this morning and it ran 100% like one expects from a G17. Ammo was American Eagle 115 grain fmj and 50 rounds of Fiocchi 147 gr JHP which seemed like a very mild loading.
Beyond simply functioning 100% - with half or more the rounds fired with a Surefire X300 attached, recoil dynamics were pretty interesting to me. BTW the rounds with Surefire attached included one hand only firing.
I fired it without the Surefire side by side with my M&P Pro 9. The G4 G17 front sight (XS Big Dot) seemed to reciprocate back and forth on the slide with the Big Dot obviously staying visually planted in the rear notch of the Warren rear sight. This made it possible for some very fast and accurate shooting. There was noticeably less disturbance of the front sights position in the sight picture with the G4 G17 vs my Pro 9 (albeit the Pro 9 is very good in this regard IMO). And of course the trigger of the Pro 9 is just way out there fine.
The gun's owner is a good sized fellow (200 lbs) with gorilla mitts and a strong pistol training (and teaching pedigree). When he was shooting it at speed - like Bill Drill speed, it was like he was shooting a .22 for all the muzzle rise I could see from the side with "hammer" like splits and all his shots hitting in a 3-4" ish group at 7 yards. I've seen him shoot before, and he is fast, but to my eyes this looked just outrageous.
The largest grip option was installed that made the gun feel to my hands as falling in between a prior Gen G17 and a G21. Rough qualitative estimate.
I was extremely impressed with the recoil response in my own hands judging by the view of the front sight throughout rapid fire strings.
The Gen 4 G18 ought to be pretty slick. ;)
A friend of mine and myself went to the range yesterday for a couple of hours. I was trying to test my new Ar also so I didn't run all the rounds through the Gen4 glock 17 that I had planned on. It has over 300rds through it with no issues. So far it runs like every other glock that my wife or I have owned. I shot it side by side with my M&P9 and can't decide which one I like better. Overall, I'm happy. Two new guns and flawless performance out of both.:D
Well, I had my gen 4 17 out again today and am less than thrilled. I had one FTE with my 124gr handload at 1150 fps and one FTE with WW white box 115gr.
I fired 190 rds of the WW and 45 rds of the handload. Another 30 rds of Fed XM9001 was fired without incident, this 115 gr ammo runs about 1250fps when I have run it over the chronograph.
I also fired 45 rounds of the handload and 10 rds of the WW from my G19 without a bobble.
The gen 4 is not the equal in my mind of the prior three generations without some tweaking of the spring rate.
Littlelebowski
02-21-10, 20:03
Put 300ish more rds through her tonight. Used the UMC ammo that it had previously had problems with. Had one FTE and many, easy-to-reproduce failure to lock back on an empty mag. However, said slide-lock-back failures only happened when shooting an impromptu drill that consisted of engaging 2 3x5 cards from concealment with a weapon loaded with 2 rds, shooting one target to slide lock, reloading, and engaging the second target to slide lock.
Using 2 rds in one mag and shooting to slide lock yielded no malfunctions.
On to the good part. The new Gen4 Glock 17 is an incredibly flat shooting gun, with an extremely fast shot to shot recovery time. This gun likes to run hard and fast and it will reward you for pushing through your own personal comfort zone as far as fast shooting goes. I had a silly grin on my face the whole time. Fast, tight groups on 3x5 cards.
I think the spring is breaking in. I am becoming a fan......
I was going to buy a 4th Gen Glock 17 and just decided to buy another M&P. I have had just about every glock made, been to the armorers course 3 times and even with the "improvements" on the 4th Gen Glocks I just like the M&P more.
I guess I'll pass on a 4G G17 until this gets resolved :mad:
Jay Cunningham
02-21-10, 20:25
Put 300ish more rds through her tonight. Used the UMC ammo that it had previously had problems with. Had one FTE and many, easy-to-reproduce failure to lock back on an empty mag. However, said slide-lock-back failures only happened when shooting an impromptu drill that consisted of engaging 2 3x5 cards from concealment with a weapon loaded with 2 rds, shooting one target to slide lock, reloading, and engaging the second target to slide lock.
Using 2 rds in one mag and shooting to slide lock yielded no malfunctions.
On to the good part. The new Gen4 Glock 17 is an incredibly flat shooting gun, with an extremely fast shot to shot recovery time. This gun likes to run hard and fast and it will reward you for pushing through your own personal comfort zone as far as fast shooting goes. I had a silly grin on my face the whole time. Fast, tight groups on 3x5 cards.
I think the spring is breaking in. I am becoming a fan......
This may not make you feel any better, but I've had several malfunctions in my Gen 3 19s from UMC ammo.
Robb Jensen
02-21-10, 20:25
This may not make you feel any better, but I've had several malfunctions in my Gen 3 19s from UMC ammo.
Ditch it for a Gen 2.....;)
John_Wayne777
02-21-10, 20:28
UMC is some spectacularly crappy ammo...weak, and dirty as hell.
Littlelebowski
02-21-10, 20:44
This may not make you feel any better, but I've had several malfunctions in my Gen 3 19s from UMC ammo.
I have no problem with that statement.
G34Shooter
02-21-10, 22:01
This may not make you feel any better, but I've had several malfunctions in my Gen 3 19s from UMC ammo.
Same, I had a squib while breaking in my brand new G19 :mad:
RAM Engineer
02-21-10, 22:03
So far reading these threads on the Gen4 Glocks, I've learned that UMC ammo is crap, AE ammo is weak, and WWB sucks. So...what is GOOD FMJ range fodder?:confused:
G34Shooter
02-21-10, 22:07
I've shot about 12,000 rounds of WWB with no issues so far.
John_Wayne777
02-21-10, 22:27
So far reading these threads on the Gen4 Glocks, I've learned that UMC ammo is crap, AE ammo is weak, and WWB sucks. So...what is GOOD FMJ range fodder?:confused:
CCI's Blazer brass has always worked well for me.
The general point being made here is don't get too freaked out if a gun designed to run with +P defensive ammo doesn't function at top level with more cheaply produced FMJ...especially if it's relatively weak ammo and the spring on the weapon being used was designed around running a .40.
FMJ ammo right now is of significantly poorer quality than usual due to the ammo demand spike. I've had more ammo issues in the last 12 months than in all my previous years of shooting combined...and by a couple of orders of magnitude.
UMC is some spectacularly crappy ammo...weak, and dirty as hell.
This may not make you feel any better, but I've had several malfunctions in my Gen 3 19s from UMC ammo.
Somewhere, and I thought it was here, someone posted chrono info for some UMC loads. SDs were...large.
RAM Engineer
02-21-10, 22:34
I've never been a +P kinda guy. I'm more of a 147 grain JHP person. What does this thread say to a person like me?
Robb Jensen
02-21-10, 22:48
I've never been a +P kinda guy. I'm more of a 147 grain JHP person. What does this thread say to a person like me?
For now if you're shooting Glocks stick with Gen 2 or Gen 3 pistols.
RAM Engineer
02-22-10, 00:21
Thanks guys.
I have shot 10K+ rounds of WW white box through my other Glocks in the last couple years without a single function problem.
Heavy Metal
02-22-10, 10:07
Flyfisher almost had a squib UMC round ka-boom his .40 M&P at last years DP CC class.
I posted this in one other thread but thought I might see what people say in this one as well.
I'd like to purchase an additional Glock 19, I have a Gen2, and my first G26. From people's experience in this thread would it be better to go with a Gen 3 or the new and upcoming Gen 4?
My .02 cents on that is the Glock 19 fits most hands so i doubt the changeable backstrap will matter that much. The new mag release is nice but again the Glock 19 with a Vickers mag release will be fine for most as the grip is so small. Perhaps there will be some recoil reduction with the dual spring. I just don't see the Gen 4 Glock 19 as being worth waiting for over getting a Gen 3 now and I have two Gen 4 Glock 17's. I was in the market for a Glock 17 when the Gen 4's came out though. But I bought a Gen 3 Glock 19 at the same time because I needed one for carry.
Littlelebowski
03-21-10, 13:45
My G19 feels much bigger and less comfortable than my Gen4 G17. Plus, I really like the new mag release and lessened recoil.
Just placed a pre-order for the Gen 4 Glock 19 for $460. Supposed to be coming in within 30 days.
Is that an LE price?
Also did you order it online or at a local dealer?
Is that an LE price?
Also did you order it online or at a local dealer?
Pre-ordered online from a local dealer. New Frontier Armory has the best prices on Glocks for non-LEO that I've found, http://newfrontierarmory.com/catalog/. They're a fairly new shop here in Vegas that has a good reputation. I am not affiliated with them in any manner.
glockshooter
03-21-10, 19:13
Pre-ordered online from a local dealer. New Frontier Armory has the best prices on Glocks for non-LEO that I've found, http://newfrontierarmory.com/catalog/. They're a fairly new shop here in Vegas that has a good reputation. I am not affiliated with them in any manner.
I don't want to rain on your parade but unless your dealer is selling guns for the fun of it or he is selling LEO Glocks to anyone you are not very likely to get the gun at that price. Dealer price on gen4 glocks is $460 as a reference.
I don't want to rain on your parade but unless your dealer is selling guns for the fun of it or he is selling LEO Glocks to anyone you are not very likely to get the gun at that price. Dealer price on gen4 glocks is $460 as a reference.
The reason the price is that low is due to joining GSSF at the time of purchase. The $460 includes the membership so the actual price for the pistol is lower than that.
G34Shooter
03-21-10, 22:38
My G19 feels much bigger and less comfortable than my Gen4 G17. Plus, I really like the new mag release and lessened recoil.
I want a 4G G17 so bad now, getting one in California will be a difficult task unfortunately.
No rain, it's warm & sunny here :D
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/5439/glockorder.jpg (http://img46.imageshack.us/i/glockorder.jpg/)
Heavy Metal
03-21-10, 23:56
Anybody know when they are going to do a run of 4gen G-17's in OD?
So what's the deal guys, for those who've got lots of trigger time with the gen3 17's and who have also picked up gen4's... think it's a safe bet to trade in my gen3 for the new one?
My G19 feels much bigger and less comfortable than my Gen4 G17. Plus, I really like the new mag release and lessened recoil.
Now that I have been shooting the G17 Gen 4 for awhile I notice the same thing. The lower hump especially on the G19 feels a little big. I'm wanting a Gen 4 G19 now whereas before I didn't think it would matter to me.
Robb Jensen
04-24-10, 10:57
As far as Glock 19s go I'd stay with a currently available Gen 3 Glock. I personally conceal carry a Gen 2 Glock 19. I find nothing reliability wise wrong with a Gen 3 Glock 19. I chose a Gen 2 because I highly dislike the finger grooves. Same reason I had them removed from my Gen 4 Glock 22.
ChicagoTex
04-24-10, 11:24
Same reason I had them removed from my Gen 4 Glock 22.
Could you puhleeze post pics? I've never seen a Gen4 de-grooved.
Also, who did it?
Robb Jensen
04-24-10, 12:16
Could you puhleeze post pics? I've never seen a Gen4 de-grooved.
Also, who did it?
Former AMU gunsmith Sam Hatfield of www.hatfiieldsgunsmithing.com (Hatfields Gunsmithing) did it.
He also undercut the triggerguard and retextured it.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/hatfieldgunsmiffin/Glock221.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/hatfieldgunsmiffin/Glock223.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/hatfieldgunsmiffin/Glock228.jpg
John_Wayne777
04-24-10, 18:53
IIRC Hatfield is pretty close to us, right Robb? I might have to take my Glocks to him for a similar treatment.
So what's the deal guys, for those who've got lots of trigger time with the gen3 17's and who have also picked up gen4's... think it's a safe bet to trade in my gen3 for the new one?
Hmmmmm . . . I still have an exceptional OD frame Gen 3 17 after converting another to the Gen 4. I'm very happy with my Gen 4 G17 thus far but I'm not going down below a the previous generations 19's and a 17 I have in reserve.
Then again, what the hell?
Robb Jensen
04-24-10, 21:55
IIRC Hatfield is pretty close to us, right Robb? I might have to take my Glocks to him for a similar treatment.
Yes he's in Old Town Manassas.
Assy Mcgee
04-24-10, 22:27
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/hatfieldgunsmiffin/Glock223.jpg
good mod, undercutting the trigger guard. makes achieving the high grip much easier and more intuitive with the SF frame glocks. for me anyway.
Assy Mcgee
04-24-10, 22:28
As far as Glock 19s go I'd stay with a currently available Gen 3 Glock.
agreed.
ChicagoTex
04-25-10, 00:13
Thanks so much for the pics. I'm very seriously considering picking up a Gen 4 17 or 19 (when they become available) and de-grooving it.
For whatever it's worth, I'd like the finger grooves if they actually matched my hand, unfortunately they don't :(
When Glock built the .40 cals the only thing they changed from the 9mm design was to add a extra pin in the lock block area. They didn't make the recoil spring heavier. They didn't add weight (Mass) to the slide. The .40's would eventually beat themselves to unreliability.
The new Gen'4 have the heavier double recoil spring and I think the way they machined this there is alittle more weight up front on the slide.
If the Gen'4 9mm run better with +P ammo then this would prove true.
So my thinking is the Gen 4 9mm should be loaded with fairly warm ammo and the Gen 4 40 cals should be good to go.
Also a word of note European 9mm is generally loaded hotter than our 9mm.
I weighed the slides of my Gen 2 G22 (circa 1991), Sig P226 40 with solid SS slide, and Gen 3 G35. The G22 and Sig P226 40 slides where the same weight (within 1 gram) but the G35 was 10% heavier. The Sig P226 40 runs a 20# recoil spring vs the Glock at 17# (9mm,.357, and .40). Sig 9mm P226 has a 15# recoil spring so Sig obviously determined that a heavier spring was required for .40/.357. I think this is the right move to control slide velocity based upon the characteristics of the various calibers. I've gone to a non-captured wolff recoil guide rod and 20# spring in my glock and it works very well both with and without a light mounted. Anyone know the spring rate on the new Gen 4?
Last week I picked up a Gen4 G17 and Gen3 G19, both blue labels. Having read this thread I took the Gen4 G17 broke it down to inspect, put it back together and fired 250 rounds through it with Federal Eagle 124gr. Not a problem.
Dropped in my favorite combo of a 3.5 and standard spring, extended slide release, plugged it and added a set of TruGlo fiber opitc sights. I like the mag release and I do feel a slightly noticeable recoil difference between the Gen4 and my G34.
In the week or so since I have had the pistol I put 750 rounds through it with zero issues. Runs like a champ so far. Light recoil, very good accuracy. It also fits in all of my holsters for the Gen3's. This coming week, I will finish of this case of ammo (1K) then add a light to it and run another case with the light.
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd60/SSDSurf/Guns/IMG_35421.jpg
Oh and the new Noveske with the Troy TRX Battlerail is together also. ;)
For those who are waiting anxiously, I was told last week by a Glock rep at a trade show that the Gen4 G19/G23 would be out within a couple of weeks, by early May at the latest...
Regards,
Kevin
For those who are waiting anxiously, I was told last week by a Glock rep at a trade show that the Gen4 G19/G23 would be out within a couple of weeks, by early May at the latest...
Regards,
Kevin
DAMN!!! That just made my RTF2 G19 decision a little trickier.
When Glock built the .40 cals the only thing they changed from the 9mm design was to add a extra pin in the lock block area. They didn't make the recoil spring heavier. They didn't add weight (Mass) to the slide. The .40's would eventually beat themselves to unreliability.
The new Gen'4 have the heavier double recoil spring and I think the way they machined this there is alittle more weight up front on the slide.
Glock has made small incremental improvements to their .40s' over the years to better handle .40. More than adding a pin. I don't recall all the details off the top of my head but I am sure others here do.
For those who are waiting anxiously, I was told last week by a Glock rep at a trade show that the Gen4 G19/G23 would be out within a couple of weeks, by early May at the latest...
As happy as I have been with my Gen 4's I'll snap up a Gen 4 G19 as soon as they show up.
Littlelebowski
04-25-10, 15:22
My Gen3 G19 feels like a 2x4 compared to my Gen4 G17.
Assy Mcgee
04-25-10, 16:12
When Glock built the .40 cals the only thing they changed from the 9mm design was to add a extra pin in the lock block area. They didn't make the recoil spring heavier. They didn't add weight (Mass) to the slide. The .40's would eventually beat themselves to unreliability.
that's why glock recommends changing the recoils spring on the 40cals at 2,500 rounds, where as there's no changing needed until 5,000 rounds for the 9mm's.
you follow their recommendations, and there's no reliability issues.
that's why glock recommends changing the recoils spring on the 40cals at 2,500 rounds, where as there's no changing needed until 5,000 rounds for the 9mm's.
you follow their recommendations, and there's no reliability issues.
Until you mount a light on it increasing slide velocity causing FTFs, even with new springs in it. That and having to replace the recoil springs so frequently tells me that the 17# spring maybe ok for a 9mm but is marginal for a .40 weapon. I think that's why glock beefed it up for gen 4. Nothing magic here, just physics.
Assy Mcgee
04-25-10, 19:43
Until you mount a light on it increasing slide velocity causing FTFs, even with new springs in it. That and having to replace the recoil springs so frequently tells me that the 17# spring maybe ok for a 9mm but is marginal for a .40 weapon. I think that's why glock beefed it up for gen 4. Nothing magic here, just physics.
i was only responding to your recoil spring comment.
40cal glocks reliablity with tac lights has been discussed quite a few times in this thread already.
...but you're right. that's one of the reasons for the mods on the gen4's ;)
madisonsfinest
04-25-10, 19:55
Dropped in my favorite combo of a 3.5 and standard spring, extended slide release, plugged it and added a set of TruGlo fiber opitc sights. I like the mag release and I do feel a slightly noticeable recoil difference between the Gen4 and my G34.
So did you feel more or less recoil than the 34?
Side by side the Gen4 G17 had slightly less felt recoil over the G34. Might be more pronounced with a similar length barrel with a Gen3 G17 and a Gen4 G17.
Magic_Salad0892
04-26-10, 04:19
For those of you guys who run suppressed Glocks.
My new Gen4 G17 is holding up REALLY well with my newly acquired AAC Ti-RANT 9. I like it A LOT.
1000 rounds without cleaning. I'm going to run it to 3000 without cleaning.
Gen3 barrels work if you're wondering. :)
115 gr. FMJ
80 gr. FMJ
147 gr. JHP (QUIET.)
127 gr. JHP
124 gr. FMJ
Not a single hiccup. So far it's at 3000 rounds without cleaning already, only 1000 of them suppressed.
I haven't cleaned the pistol yet. Not even when it first came out of the box.
No malfunctions. Might throw this in the 2,000 round challenge thread.
Actually I had a few crappy 115 gr. and 80 gr. rounds with deformed primers that didn't go off, but I'm not going to count that against the gun.
For those who are waiting anxiously, I was told last week by a Glock rep at a trade show that the Gen4 G19/G23 would be out within a couple of weeks, by early May at the latest...
Regards,
Kevin
Negative, at least in Washington State. Both the Glock LE rep for this area and the largest LE dealer east of the Cascades have said end of June on the gen4 Glock 19. Maybe that is just for the west coast though...
My Gen3 G19 feels like a 2x4 compared to my Gen4 G17.
Agreed. I plan on picking up a gen4 G19 as soon as they come online. It amazes me how such a little modification can make the gen4 series feel so much more comfortable/ smaller/ thinner. My old gen3 G17 and gen3 G19 feel like a brick to me now.
Yesterday I finished off another 250 without a light to bring the total to1K. No issues on the new Gen4 G17. I then added a light and put 200 rounds w/light. Again no issues. Will finish off this next case through the pistol with light mount this week. I really don't expect any problems and I am really liking the Gen4.
I was told by my dealer that the Gen4 G19's should be out in about 4 weeks?
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