View Full Version : Daniel Defense 16" Pencil Barrels!
We got some of the new DD 16" Hammer Forged Pencil Barrel's in. They are nicely finished, gas port size is correct and feature M4 barrel extension.
This first batch was dimpled for use with the VLTOR low profile GB. The next back we have coming will have a FSB.
C4
Uppers and barrels can be purchased here: http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=DD-HFB
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Daniel%20Defense/16_Mid_Barrels.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Daniel%20Defense/16_Pencil_Barrel.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Daniel%20Defense/16_Pencil_RM.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Daniel%20Defense/16_Pencil_BE.jpg
Pencil Builds
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/GR%20Custom%20Builds/DD_Pencil_Builds.jpg
DD 16" Pencil, LT 9.0 Rail, Magpul MBUS & SF CA556SA
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/GR%20Custom%20Builds/DD_Pencil_LT9.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SF/CA556SA.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/SF/CA556SA1.jpg
DD 16" Pencil, LT 11.0 Rail, SF 212A
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/GR%20Custom%20Builds/DD_Pencil_LT11.jpg
Dd 16" Pencil, VLTOR VIS 10, VLTOR VC-1
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/GR%20Custom%20Builds/DD_Pencil_VIS10.jpg
DD 16" Pencil, TROY Extreme 9, A2
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/GR%20Custom%20Builds/DD_Pencil_TR9.jpg
Presumably the Xtreme is the lightest assembled upper?
Presumably the Xtreme is the lightest assembled upper?
I believe so. Will weigh them tomorrow.
C4
Will the assembled price be competitive with (projected) BCM lightweight price?
Good stuff. They on your website yet?
RogerinTPA
01-27-10, 18:41
Those look great. Grant, can you list the prices of your builds please.
OH BOY!!! Are you gonna be selling the stripped barrels or just custom builds with these barrels.
Will the assembled price be competitive with (projected) BCM lightweight price?
These uppers are not from DD. We just built some different options for folks to see.
A DD HF Pencil barrel, Vltor GB, Gas tube and M4 upper receiver would run around $400.
C4
Good stuff. They on your website yet?
We have not put anything up on our website as we wanted to see if anyone were interested in them.
C4
spamsammich
01-27-10, 19:16
We have not put anything up on our website as we wanted to see if anyone were interested in them.
C4
At 400 ish, hell yeah I'm interested!
Cletus VanDam
01-27-10, 19:19
Please excuse my ignorance, but I'm a new member trying to learn about AR's. What is the "pencil barrel" advantage-desireability?
Thank you
Cle
.750 gas blocks?
tia
No. Pencil barrels use .625 GB.
C4
OH BOY!!! Are you gonna be selling the stripped barrels or just custom builds with these barrels.
Both I think. I already have the VLTOR GB's in stock.
C4
.625 gas blocks....that's cool
Are you planning on selling stripped barrels separately?
Looks like my question was answered
Price?
Please excuse my ignorance, but I'm a new member trying to learn about AR's. What is the "pencil barrel" advantage-desireability?
Thank you
Cle
Weight.
C4
.625 gas blocks....that's cool
Are you planning on selling stripped barrels separately?
Looks like my question was answered
Price?
I have not worked up any prices just yet.
I am also thinking of offering fitted DD BCG's with these uppers.
C4
Damn Grant, now you got my wheels turning!;)
Grant if you are guaging interest uhh, yeah I'm interested. In a barrel, upper, whatever. It would be nice for a light weight build.
Now if DD would make a 14.5" pencil, or a middy pencil now that would be awsome
Neat. Its nice to see companies going towards pencil profiles. They just make sense for most applications. Now, just if DD would make a couple more options... 14.7" CHF pencil middy with a FSB (and one with a gas block), and the option of permanent flash hiders, the world would be a better place. The world of AR's is getting better and better, for us shooters. I think you will do well with these, Grant.
Is this a regular production item for DD now or a limited run?
Will they be offering a pencil middy barrel with fixed front sight post any time soon?
Will they be offering a pencil middy barrel with fixed front sight post any time soon?
I was curious about this as well.
Grant if you are guaging interest uhh, yeah I'm interested. In a barrel, upper, whatever. It would be nice for a light weight build.
Roger that. Will work up some pricing on these uppers and put them up on our website.
C4
Will they be offering a pencil middy barrel with fixed front sight post any time soon?
They will be offering 14.5 mid-length gas barrels (Govt profile) and 14.5 pencil barrels with carbine gas system.
We have ordered all of these (with and without FSB's).
So expect all kinds of interesting upper builds from us.
C4
justin_247
01-27-10, 21:04
As discussed earlier in this thread, I, too, would be very interested in a midlength lightweight barrel... I haven't decided if I want the FSB or not, so I'll just be agnostic on that until you get them in.
yallknowho
01-27-10, 21:30
They will be offering 14.5 mid-length gas barrels (Govt profile) and 14.5 pencil barrels with carbine gas system.
We have ordered all of these (with and without FSB's).
So expect all kinds of interesting upper builds from us.
C4
awesome.
I would definitely be interested in a mid-length with a FSB.
They will be offering 14.5 mid-length gas barrels (Govt profile) and 14.5 pencil barrels with carbine gas system.
We have ordered all of these (with and without FSB's).
So expect all kinds of interesting upper builds from us.
C4
Will the FSB be the appropriate height for a flat top upper?
Never mind. Reading is fundamental. I just saw the govt profile reference.
clickclack
01-27-10, 21:51
They will be offering 14.5 mid-length gas barrels (Govt profile) and 14.5 pencil barrels with carbine gas system.
We have ordered all of these (with and without FSB's).
So expect all kinds of interesting upper builds from us.
C4
holy crap im in
14.5" pencil with pinned FH midlength and 9.0 rail how much?
can we pick which FH we want?
Will the FSB be the appropriate height for a flat top upper?
Never mind. Reading is fundamental. I just saw the govt profile reference.
To my knowledge, there are no F rated FSB for Pencil barrels. This is an easy fix though w/ a taller post.
C4
I don't know the weight of the standard M4 but would curious to know how much less the pencil is for grins.
Every time something new like this comes out, another project eats at my brain.
I am interested in the price of the barrel as pictured and configured in the first post.
Nice looking barrels.
Interest here for a middy pencil as well......watching for someone to come out with one.
Cool, looks interesting. Trying to figure out what kind of forearm would balance the weight well.
To my knowledge, there are no F rated FSB for Pencil barrels.
Colt 6933 ;)
Tornado_Racing
01-28-10, 05:55
I'm in for a stripped 14.5" carbine pencil, VLTOR GB, and a Phantom 5C2.
An Undocumented Worker
01-28-10, 07:33
Can you build one of these barrels with a pinned on lowpro gas block?
I don't know the weight of the standard M4 but would curious to know how much less the pencil is for grins.
Every time something new like this comes out, another project eats at my brain.
I have a stripped 16" M4 barrel here (read no FSB). It weighed in at 1.12.
The DD Pencil (as seen in the pic on pg. 1) weighs 1.5.
C4
So the smaller profile DD pencil weighs more than the M4 profile? That seems odd. Any idea on diameters at several check points, say under the handguards at thinnest point, at FSB, and 1" behind muzzle?
Colt 6933 ;)
Is it actually marked F? Talking to the Colt guys at Shot, they said that there is none available and they are just using taller front site posts.
Read SMG LEE's post here about pencil barrels and flattop rated FSB: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=45634&page=2
I know that I have seen some "F" marked FSB's on Colt Pencil barrels, but I have to wonder if that is incorrect (and they just installed a taller post).
C4
Is it actually marked F? Talking to the Colt guys at Shot, they said that there is none available and they are just using taller front site posts.
Read SMG LEE's post here about pencil barrels and flattop rated FSB: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=45634&page=2
I'll dig one out later today. One of my two has been chopped and it under a handguard so that won't be of any help.
I seem to recall folks in the Colt booth telling me things last year that I went home and checked against my own guns only to find they evidently had no idea what they were talking about or that I now have some super collector guns that scottryan should be buying from me as they are the only ones in existence. ;)
So the smaller profile DD pencil weighs more than the M4 profile? That seems odd. Any idea on diameters at several check points, say under the handguards at thinnest point, at FSB, and 1" behind muzzle?
No. The DD Pencil barrel is 1.05. I forgot the zero in the post (not enough coffee yet).
C4
I'll dig one out later today. One of my two has been chopped and it under a handguard so that won't be of any help.
I seem to recall folks in the Colt booth telling me things last year that I went home and checked against my own guns only to find they evidently had no idea what they were talking about or that I now have some super collector guns that scottryan should be buying from me as they are the only ones in existence. ;)
I am not saying that you are wrong, but have heard different things.
I have an e-mail into Colt Engineering right now.
C4
Maybe I missed something. You had indicated the 14.5 middy was going to be govt profile. I thought that a govt profile barrel was .750 at the gas block.
Can you build one of these barrels with a pinned on lowpro gas block?
Be could. IMHO, if the barrel is dimpled, GB is installed correctly (use green loctite) and is covered by a rail, it is never coming out.
C4
Maybe I missed something. You had indicated the 14.5 middy was going to be govt profile. I thought that a govt profile barrel was .750 at the gas block.
That is correct.
As of right now, they are not making any Pencil barrels with a middy gas system.
C4
That is correct.
As of right now, they are not making any Pencil barrels with a middy gas system.
C4
That's fine by me. I was looking for a 14.5 middy. The next question is when do you anticipate these coming in.
Thanks for posting up the weights.
Kinda surprised only 1 oz. difference between the two.
Thanks for posting up the weights.
Kinda surprised only 1 oz. difference between the two.
I kind of am too. This is from Bushmaster's website.
Attached is a chart with the different barrels weights. The stainless and non stainless barrels in the same length and profile weigh the same.
Barrel Weight In Pounds ( for milled front sight subtract 0.2 pounds )
Barrel length_________Heavy Barrels________ Fluted Barrels
10"__________________2.0_________________1.9
11.5"________________2.2_________________2.0
11.5/5.5"_____________2.6_________________2.5
14.5"________________2.5_________________2.2
14.5"AK_____________2.7_________________2.4
14.5"MY_____________2.7_________________2.4
14.5"AM (phantom)____2.7_________________2.4
14.5"IZ______________2.7_________________2.4
16"_________________2.7_________________2.3
16" Dissipator________3.0_________________2.6
20"_________________3.5_________________3.0
20" DCM____________3.7
20" Predator_____________________________3.2
24"_________________3.9_________________3.1
24" Varminter____________________________3.5
26"_________________4.0_________________3.2
Military Style Barrels
14.5"M4_____________2.0
14.5"M4AK___________2.2
14.5"M4MY___________2.2
14.5"M4AM (phantom)__2.2
14.5"M4IZ____________2.2
16"M4 Dissipator______2.3
16" Superlight_________1.9
16"M4_______________2.2
20"A2 (govt profile)_____2.5
Thanks for posting up the weights.
Kinda surprised only 1 oz. difference between the two.
Sorry, it is actually 6 ounces difference.
C4
I kind of am too. This is from Bushmaster's website.
I imagine that BM had FSB installed. I compared apples to apples (no FSB installed on either).
C4
That's fine by me. I was looking for a 14.5 middy. The next question is when do you anticipate these coming in.
I have ordered them and they are being made as we speak.
C4
.625 gas blocks....that's cool
Are you planning on selling stripped barrels separately?
Looks like my question was answered
Price?
Here are prices on the uppers listed:
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/GR%20Custom%20Builds/DD_Pencil_Builds.jpg
1. M4 upper, DD 16P, LT 9.0, SF CA556SA, Magpul MBUS Sights, VLTOR GB $802
2. M4 upper, DD 16P, LT 11.0, SF 212A, VLTOR GB $778
3. M4 upper, DD 16P, VLTOR VIS2A, VLTOR VC-1, VLTOR GB $1030
4. M4 upper, DD 16P, Troy 9.0 Extreme, VLTOR GB, A2 FS $564
We can add and remove flash suppressors or change out rail's or length's.
C4
Grant:
What is the ETA on the 14.5" or even 16" midlength gas pencil barrel? I would love one of those.
Heck, your offerings above are attractive also.
I might have to jump on one.
Grant:
What is the ETA on the 14.5" or even 16" midlength gas pencil barrel? I would love one of those.
Heck, your offerings above are attractive also.
I might have to jump on one.
The 14.5 Pencil (Carbine) and 14.5 Govt (mid-length) are being made as we speak. No idea if they will EVER make a 16" middy Pencil.
C4
One ounce?? Where did you get that from?
C4
from here
stripped 16" M4 barrel here (read no FSB). It weighed in at 1.12.
The DD Pencil (as seen in the pic on pg. 1) weighs 1.05.
1.12lbs - 1.05lbs = 0.07lbs x 16oz = 1.12oz difference
I imagine that BM had FSB installed. I compared apples to apples (no FSB installed on either).
I would assume so, but the difference between the two would still be the same.
16" Superlight_________1.9
16"M4_______________2.2
2.2lbs - 1.9 lbs = 0.30lbs x 16oz = 4.80 oz difference
The difference between two items would be the same regardless of whether they had an elephant standing on the scale both times or if they were weighed alone.
I have ordered them and they are being made as we speak.
C4
Outstanding. Will you be announcing their arrival, or should I be checking in?
Then 16" pencil carbine length will have to do. I take it you sell .625 gas blocks also? Those are very hard to find.
from here
1.12lbs - 1.05lbs = 0.07lbs x 16oz = 1.12oz difference
I would assume so, but the difference between the two would still be the same.
2.2lbs - 1.9 lbs = 0.30lbs x 16oz = 4.80 oz difference
The difference between two items would be the same regardless of whether they had an elephant standing on the scale both times or if they were weighed alone.
I'm, sorry I was right first time (had to go back and re-weigh everything). The DD Pencil barrel is 1.5. So it is about 6.08 lighter than the M4 barrel.
I knew that it was about 6 ounces differnt, but did not right it as such (my bad).
C4
Outstanding. Will you be announcing their arrival, or should I be checking in?
I am sure we will post something whe we get them.
C4
Then 16" pencil carbine length will have to do. I take it you sell .625 gas blocks also? Those are very hard to find.
Yes we do. We stock the VLTOR set screwed (carbon) ones.
C4
I'm, sorry I was right first time (had to go back and re-weigh everything). The DD Pencil barrel is 1.5. So it is about 6.08 lighter than the M4 barrel.
I knew that it was about 6 ounces differnt, but did not right it as such (my bad).
Now we're gellin', and it seems more inline with the Bushmaster numbers as well.
stripped 16" M4 barrel here (read no FSB). It weighed in at 1.12.
The DD Pencil (as seen in the pic on pg. 1) weighs 1.5.
I think what you meant to write was that the M4 barrel is 2.12 lbs, not 1.12, and the DD weight was correct at 1.5lbs. ;)
Now we're gellin', and it seems more inline with the Bushmaster numbers as well.
I think what you meant to write was that the M4 barrel is 2.12 lbs, not 1.12, and the DD weight was correct at 1.5lbs. ;)
Ya, that's what I get for talking on the phone, answering e-mail, posting on the net and trying to remember barrel weights as I walk from one end of the building to the other. :rolleyes:
Where is my coffee cup at......
C4
Al U. 5811
01-28-10, 10:34
Regardless of the small weight differences, these look like a home run.
RobS is ever the weight freak
6 oz is significant on an AR-15. DD made a good decision releasing these.
6 oz is significant on an AR-15. DD made a good decision releasing these.
Agree. 6 ounces is a lot.
I personally HATE the M4 profile barrel so I very much like Govt and Pencil profiles.
C4
Ahh....now the weights make sense :)
Hmmm....now thinking maybe a 14.5" govt pinned middy might be a nice alternative to a 16" pencil middy......
Who is the supplier on the uppers (maybe I missed it)?
I'm thinking DD CHF 14.5", low pro gas block (anyone weigh the Vltor? I have one somewhere but not sure where, have a YHM too....) pinned in place, and one of these...
http://www.aacblog.com/wp-content/uploads/brakeout-for-web-final.jpg
Tag for release and price of 14.5" and 16" pencil barrels with FSBs.
Dustin
alphagunner
01-28-10, 14:26
I have a F marked front sight base that came on a CMMG lightweight middy, I replaced it with a Vltor .625 gasblock. So somebody is making F marked front sight bases for lightweights.
eternal24k
01-28-10, 14:37
heres hoping for some midlength pencils with standard fsb
I'm thinking DD CHF 14.5", low pro gas block (anyone weigh the Vltor? I have one somewhere but not sure where, have a YHM too....) pinned in place, and one of these...
http://www.aacblog.com/wp-content/uploads/brakeout-for-web-final.jpg
This would be sweet. Does anyone know when the non-mount Brakeout will be available?
Grant,
Do you think the reason we have not seen a top tier manufacturer produce a Midlength gas system/true Pencil profile barrel is due to potential for excessive flex because of the longer pencil profile under the handguards (between the gasblock shoulder & barrel extension)???
Just curious....
Here are some pics of a non drilled J & T Distributing .625 compared to a F marked non drilled .625 cmmg i have.
Grant,
Do you think the reason we have not seen a top tier manufacturer produce a Midlength gas system/true Pencil profile barrel is due to potential for excessive flex because of the longer pencil profile under the handguards (between the gasblock shoulder & barrel extension)???
Just curious....
Pencil barrels are the same diameter as A2 profile barrels under the handguards and they are made out of the same material. They are only different from the FSB forward. The flex difference is none at all to maybe minimal. This is only a problem if you don't have FF handguards and are slinging up like in Hi Power or have a heavy rifle sitting on a bipod. The KAC SR15 barrel is a mid length and has pretty much the same diameter as a pencil barrel.
Dustin
This would be sweet. Does anyone know when the non-mount Brakeout will be available?
Silvers says "will be a while though"
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52481
eternal24k
01-28-10, 15:26
Grant,
Do you think the reason we have not seen a top tier manufacturer produce a Midlength gas system/true Pencil profile barrel is due to potential for excessive flex because of the longer pencil profile under the handguards (between the gasblock shoulder & barrel extension)???
Just curious....
I wouldnt think so considering the presence of LW 20" barrels
Ahh....now the weights make sense :)
Hmmm....now thinking maybe a 14.5" govt pinned middy might be a nice alternative to a 16" pencil middy......
Who is the supplier on the uppers (maybe I missed it)?
We use cotracted M4 Upper receivers.
C4
Grant,
Do you think the reason we have not seen a top tier manufacturer produce a Midlength gas system/true Pencil profile barrel is due to potential for excessive flex because of the longer pencil profile under the handguards (between the gasblock shoulder & barrel extension)???
Just curious....
Uhm, don't really know. I think it has more to do with the fact that there are no drawings (meaning .Gov set standard) so SOME manufacturers are a little on the slow side to do their own.
C4
+1 Agree w/ Grant & Thank you for posting the pics & info, Appreciate it.
Gov't profile Mid-Length 16" barrel have been GTG & Ran Hard for some time. The Gov't profile mid-length barrels under the hand guards are the same/similar dia. as pencil profile barrels. Current Mid-Length barrel are heavier forward the gas block, so I agree it probably more to do with lack of drawings than flex. Hopefully its only a matter of waiting for BCM & DD.
2010 will be a GREAT Year :)
Now we're gellin', and it seems more inline with the Bushmaster numbers as well.
I think what you meant to write was that the M4 barrel is 2.12 lbs, not 1.12, and the DD weight was correct at 1.5lbs. ;)
rob_s
Stripped M4 2.12lbs - DD Pencil 1.5lbs = 0.62lbs * 16oz = 9.92 oz difference
So its really more than 6oz almost 10oz cut in weight, right?
Grant,
How much are the stripped barrels going to be?
Thanks
Hot damn, one of those 14.5" carbine gas pencils is right up my alley for a carbine I'm wanting to rebarrel. I was considering buying a J&T because not much else is out there, but I'll take a DD hands down.
Oh, and I'll plant my crank in the sand and be the first to commit to a DD 16" pencil midlength either bare or with a "F" FSB...
Silvers says "will be a while though"
http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52481
Thanks Rob.
I'm thinking of a 14.5 middy with a standard FSB, the Brakeout or Blackout, and some Magpul MOE middy handguards.
LonghunterCO
01-28-10, 21:14
Excellent. This is what I want...with standard FSB. Thanks Grant.
Grant,
How much are the stripped barrels going to be?
Thanks
I think they will be around $250 (without a FSB or GB).
C4
Al U. 5811
01-29-10, 10:03
Grant,
Any idea when you'll be putting them up on your site?
The Troy build with a 13" TRX rail looks to be the one for me. If you are gauging interest that is.
Grant,
Any idea when you'll be putting them up on your site?
The Troy build with a 13" TRX rail looks to be the one for me. If you are gauging interest that is.
We are trying, but there are only so many hours in the day.
If you want one with a TRX 13 Rail (which is in stock), we can build that and have it out on Monday!
Just give us a call with CC info.
C4
Marler5811
01-29-10, 10:41
Guys. I have seen a lot of comments on the weight difference between an M4 Profle barrel and our Lightweight profile barrels. Grant is correct with his comparison. As I weighed them, the our 16" M4 Profile Barrels weigh in at 1lb 12 ounces and the 16" Lightweight profile barrels weigh in at 1lb 6 ounces for a difference of 6 ounces. It doesn't seem like a lot, but this makes a huge difference when trying to lighten the load.
Guys. I have seen a lot of comments on the weight difference between an M4 Profle barrel and our Lightweight profile barrels. Grant is correct with his comparison. As I weighed them, the our 16" M4 Profile Barrels weigh in at 1lb 12 ounces and the 16" Lightweight profile barrels weigh in at 1lb 6 ounces for a difference of 6 ounces. It doesn't seem like a lot, but this makes a huge difference when trying to lighten the load.
Thanks Joe.
6 Ounces is a lot for sure.
C4
GermanSynergy
01-29-10, 11:18
Very nice! I thought I had all of the uppers in 5.56mm that I needed, but this proves me wrong. :cool:
Very nice! I thought I had all of the uppers in 5.56mm that I needed, but this proves me wrong. :cool:
This could well replace my current 6520 flattop conversion.
Thanks Joe.
6 Ounces is a lot for sure.
C4
Can you guys expand on that and tell me what the difference in weight is between a 14.5" and 16" lightweight profile barrel - how much does an inch and a half of barrel weigh?
Can you guys expand on that and tell me what the difference in weight is between a 14.5" and 16" lightweight profile barrel - how much does an inch and a half of barrel weigh?
Don't really know for certain (as I don't have a 14.5" pencil in stock).
C4
Can you guys expand on that and tell me what the difference in weight is between a 14.5" and 16" lightweight profile barrel - how much does an inch and a half of barrel weigh?
What Joe said was the difference in weight between the 16" M4 profile barrel and the 16" lightweight aka pencil barrel.
The M4 has 0.75" dia. barrel from the gas port/FSB area to the flash hider except for the little dip in the middle for the grenade launcher attachment.
The lightweight profile barrel has a consistent 0.625" diameter tube from the gas port/FSB area to the flash hider.
The 6 ounce of weight difference is due to the "fat" area of the M4 profile.
The 6 ounce of weight difference is due to the "fat" area of the M4 profile.
Which is an important part of the concept. The fact that the added weight is at one end of the lever means that it "feels" heavier, or "slower". A barrel like the Noveske N4 that maintains the same weight as the M4 but with uniform weight distribution will subjectively feel lighter and quicker to many users.
Pencil 14.5", Breakout, Troy Vtac Extreme 9.0 (maybe 11.0, we shall see)..... Yes please.
I currently have a 16" Colt w/ A2 FH and 10.0 DD M4 rail with shaved FSB. Liking the idea of even lighter for the kid and the woman, and with a 2x or 3x Compact ACOG should be about perfect.
Tornado_Racing
01-29-10, 13:03
I have a RRA with a 16" M4 profile that weighs 7.7 lbs. and a Spike's with a 14.5" lightweight that weighs 7.1 lbs. The only difference between the two is the barrel.
RRA 7.7lbs = 123.2 oz.
Spikes 7.1lbs = 113.6 oz
Difference of 9.6 oz. Then take the 6oz. difference between standard and lightweight and that leaves 3.6 oz difference. 1.5" removed from a M4 profile barrel would roughly weigh in at 3+ oz.
ETA: Numbers above are total empty weights of the weapons.
So TR, sounds like 16" M4 --> 14.5" pencil = 10 oz savings +/-?
Ok, I got some resolution on the Colt F marked FSB discussion.
The FSB that comes on the 6520 is different than the FSB that comes on the 6933.
The difference between the two is that the one on the 6933 is SLIGHTLY taller than the one that comes on the 6520, but is NOT tall enough to zero with a BUIS (like ARMS, Troy, Magpul, etc). So Colt uses a taller front sight post to allow it to zero.
So yes, the FSB on the 6933 is "F" marked, it is not as tall as the F marked FSB on say a 6920 and has to use a taller post in order zero.
Confusing enough? ;)
C4
Front sight base is not an issue for me, I will install a DD front sight on the handguard.
Tornado_Racing
01-29-10, 13:28
So TR, sounds like 16" M4 --> 14.5" pencil = 10 oz savings +/-?
That would be my guess.
I don't have a pencil as my Spike's has a lightweight so I could see a 10oz. difference. My lightweight is .550" in front of FSB, .750" FSB, and .650" behind FSB.
Grant you have my Noveske VIS fund in danger.
Heres what I'm looking at:
DD 14.5P, VLTOR VIS3A(maybe a 2A), PWS 556(pinned), VLTOR GB, MBUS set
$10?? and lead time?
Any guess on the weight vs. a N4 Light Carbine VIS Upper (4 lbs, 10 oz)
Thanks
Grant you have my Noveske VIS fund in danger.
Heres what I'm looking at:
DD 14.5P, VLTOR VIS3A(maybe a 2A), PWS 556(pinned), VLTOR GB, MBUS set
$10?? and lead time?
Any guess on the weight vs. a N4 Light Carbine VIS Upper (4 lbs, 10 oz)
Thanks
We could possibly do this build. I really don't want to quote barrel lead times as I have no control over the process.
My guess is that you would save 6-10 ounces over a Noveske barrel.
C4
Can you guys expand on that and tell me what the difference in weight is between a 14.5" and 16" lightweight profile barrel - how much does an inch and a half of barrel weigh?
I curious as well in the difference in weight between a 14.5" vs a 16"......
Grant,
Any idea when you'll be putting them up on your site?
The Troy build with a 13" TRX rail looks to be the one for me. If you are gauging interest that is.
I think the 13" would be an eye catcher and a very cool upper for the coin!! Like your thought process!!
notorious_ar15
01-29-10, 18:34
Here's another vote for making a 16" pencil (LW) 1/7 barrel with a mid-length gas system.
Hopefully, somebody will step up to the plate with one that is C/L since CMMG is no longer offering these. 20" 1/7 pencil bbl would be nice, too...
Grant-
I am very interested. Email sent about purchase. I've been waiting for a high quality lightweight combat upper, and I think this is the ticket.
I have a pair of .625" "F" FSBs inbound. Now, to wait (im)patiently for a stripped 14.5 carbine pencil and a stripped 16" mid pencil...
Grant, can you install FSBs or is this more work for Steve and Co., Fine Purveyors of Metal Chips?
I have a pair of .625" "F" FSBs inbound. Now, to wait (im)patiently for a stripped 14.5 carbine pencil and a stripped 16" mid pencil...
Grant, can you install FSBs or is this more work for Steve and Co., Fine Purveyors of Metal Chips?
We cannot install FSB, but will have DD install them for us.
I also do not believe there are any such thing as a true flattop rated FSB (read my post about Colt).
C4
wild_wild_wes
01-29-10, 21:11
Grant, what is the time frame on these barrels: days, weeks, or months?
Please put me down for a stripped 14.5" midlength!
This is exiting news....finally, proper Lightweight barrels! And hammer forged, a bonus!
wild_wild_wes
01-29-10, 21:12
We cannot install FSB, but will have DD install them for us.
C4
Could you have DD pin on their low-profile gas block?
We cannot install FSB, but will have DD install them for us.
I also do not believe there are any such thing as a true flattop rated FSB (read my post about Colt).
C4
I'll measure and take pics when they get here - hopefully they are true "F" height as advertised and confirmed twice by them. If they're A1/A2 height, back they go...
LonghunterCO
01-29-10, 21:16
I'll measure and take pics when they get here - hopefully they are true "F" height as advertised and confirmed twice by them. If they're A1/A2 height, back they go...
...or go with the taller FS post.
Grant, what is the time frame on these barrels: days, weeks, or months?
Please put me down for a stripped 14.5" midlength!
This is exiting news....finally, proper Lightweight barrels! And hammer forged, a bonus!
I think weeks.
C4
Could you have DD pin on their low-profile gas block?
No on pinning.
IMHO, if the barrel is dimpled, GS is installed properly and a rail is run over top, there is no need to pin them.
C4
wild_wild_wes
01-29-10, 23:45
I think weeks.
C4
I'm in!
wild_wild_wes
01-29-10, 23:50
These are really the answer to my prayers.
For my next build I had planned on getting a Government profile 16" midlength barrel, then having my gunsmith chop it to 14.5". Then have him slim the front contour down to a proper Lightweight diameter. Then re-park. But then I'd still have the thick gas block area.
Quality Lightweight barrels have been absent from the market forever. These are coming out just in time. :)
I would definitely be interested in a mid-length with a FSB.
Same here...
wild_wild_wes
01-30-10, 03:42
Grant:
What is the ETA on the 14.5" or even 16" midlength gas pencil barrel? I would love one of those.
You ain't gonna get it.
The 14.5" Middies are Government profile, not lightweight....which means .750" gas blocks....not true pencils.
Damn, that's what I wanted too.
You ain't gonna get it.
The 14.5" Middies are Government profile, not lightweight....which means .750" gas blocks....not true pencils.
Damn, that's what I wanted too.
I think I'm OK with it.
After much teeth gnashing and belly-button introspection over the last few months I've pretty much decided I'm going to stick with 14.5" for carbine gas and 16.1" for midlength.
I think.
Grant,
Would it be possible to send you an A1 upper and other parts for you to assemble a M16A1 Carbine (CAR-15) style upper with the DD 16" pencil barrel?
Can I get:
16" pencil carbine length gas port with FSB and bbl nut installed?
Price?
When do you think you will have these on the site? I have an extra $700 floating around an I want to do a couple of builds.
Grant,
Would it be possible to send you an A1 upper and other parts for you to assemble a M16A1 Carbine (CAR-15) style upper with the DD 16" pencil barrel?
We can do that.
C4
Can I get:
16" pencil carbine length gas port with FSB and bbl nut installed?
Price?
When do you think you will have these on the site? I have an extra $700 floating around an I want to do a couple of builds.
Sure. No pricing yet as we don't know what we are paying for the FSB models.
Couple weeks I think we should see a lot of these new barrels.
C4
Here are prices on the uppers listed:
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/GR%20Custom%20Builds/DD_Pencil_Builds.jpg
1. M4 upper, DD 16P, LT 9.0, SF CA556SA, Magpul MBUS Sights, VLTOR GB $802
2. M4 upper, DD 16P, LT 11.0, SF 212A, VLTOR GB $778
3. M4 upper, DD 16P, VLTOR VIS2A, VLTOR VC-1, VLTOR GB $1030
4. M4 upper, DD 16P, Troy 9.0 Extreme, VLTOR GB, A2 FS $564
We can add and remove flash suppressors or change out rail's or length's.
C4
Nice.
Re: "4. M4 upper, DD 16P, Troy 9.0 Extreme, VLTOR GB, A2 FS $564"
May have been stated previously, but is the VLTOR GB pinned on these?
all due respect, I think the answer's above ;)
all due respect, I think the answer's above ;)
You are correct, sir.
No wonder I had this funny feeling I had already seen the answer (https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=557022&postcount=119) on previous pages.
:D
Thanks.
1811tactikool
02-02-10, 15:07
I would be very interested in buying the following:
M4 Upper with 14.5 barrel with perm'd Blackout or similar, vltor low-pro gas block, and either a DD Lite 10.0 or Troy Extreme 11.0.
Grant, any ideas on price of either of these two setups? I guess I would need to narrow it down in terms of which muzzle device I would need, huh? :cool:
I would be very interested in buying the following:
M4 Upper with 14.5 barrel with perm'd Blackout or similar, vltor low-pro gas block, and either a DD Lite 10.0 or Troy Extreme 11.0.
Grant, any ideas on price of either of these two setups? I guess I would need to narrow it down in terms of which muzzle device I would need, huh? :cool:
Not really. Use $250 for the stripped barrel and then take the retail price for all the items you want and that should give you an ballpark.
C4
ForTehNguyen
02-02-10, 15:36
would be fun to make an all out lightweight rifle, that Calvary Arms polymer lower+stock piece, this pencil barrel, regular front sight tower, regular handguards, MBUS rear sight,
1811tactikool
02-02-10, 16:29
would be fun to make an all out lightweight rifle, that Calvary Arms polymer lower+stock piece, this pencil barrel, regular front sight tower, regular handguards, MBUS rear sight,
That is exactly how I found this thread! I was pondering a lightweight build off of a Cav Arms lower... I was planning a DD Omega X7 or similar for handguard, but the Troy TRX9 would be a good option for that... I want to be able mount a light and grip is all.
THEN I got to thinking I could build a nice medium weight rifle off of a Noveske stripped lower, and have killer SHTF rifle too! :cool:
I guess I would need to narrow it down in terms of which muzzle device I would need, huh? :cool:
Any idea of which FH you might have on hand (other than the Vltor) to bring these to 16"?
Any idea of which FH you might have on hand (other than the Vltor) to bring these to 16"?
We stock most everything that SF makes, BCM extended A2, Vortex, VLTOR and hopefully PWS in the near future.
C4
spamsammich
02-02-10, 16:38
A little unsolicited advice, if you foresee even the slightest possibility of wanting to reconfigure your rail system in the future, just go with the 16" barrel. All I run are pinned 14.5" barrels and I don't recommend them to people that like to tinker or switch things up from time to time. I recognize that there may be a couple ounces worth of weight savings, but my experiment with trying to get around the NFA is over. I'd rather burn calories doing other things besides machining off a flash hider when I want a different rail.
They will be offering 14.5 mid-length gas barrels (Govt profile) and 14.5 pencil barrels with carbine gas system.
We have ordered all of these (with and without FSB's).
So expect all kinds of interesting upper builds from us.
C4
Would it be possible to get a 14.5 inch middy upper with 9 inch larue and perm attached blackout build from you when the barrel becomes available? Just trying to see if I should wait on my next upper. Thanks...
A little unsolicited advice, if you foresee even the slightest possibility of wanting to reconfigure your rail system in the future, just go with the 16" barrel. All I run are pinned 14.5" barrels and I don't recommend them to people that like to tinker or switch things up from time to time. I recognize that there may be a couple ounces worth of weight savings, but my experiment with trying to get around the NFA is over. I'd rather burn calories doing other things besides machining off a flash hider when I want a different rail.
Totally agree. I think the 14.5/pinned FS is a horrible idea.
C4
Totally agree. I think the 14.5/pinned FS is a horrible idea.
C4
Do people really change FF rails on such a regular basis?
Do people really change FF rails on such a regular basis?
Not everybody does. I think if you know what you want, and the purpose for the carbine, prior to the pin, than you will probably be happy. This is coming from a guy with multiple AR's, so YMMV. If you have only one or two AR's, then chances are, you will likely want to change it around before the barrel is shot out. Me, well, I have been around long enough to know what I want for the long run, and have been through all kinds of configs, and have enough other AR's, to tinker with, if I desire. :D
spamsammich
02-03-10, 00:26
Do people really change FF rails on such a regular basis?
With ever increasing options for light weight rails, you'll see lots of people swapping configs. Even if you don't change often, changing once will necessitate cutting off your muzzle device unless you do something like stick strictly to the DD rails that utilize the same proprietary barrel nut. This is one of the reasons why I stick to Lite rails, I've changed rail lengths three times on my pinned LMT. yes I lack foresight, but I chose a system that was forgiving of that flaw.
Luckystiff
02-03-10, 00:42
I love pinned 14.5 on personal guns as NFA is not allowed in my state and my current duty gun is a 14.5 Colt M4. For me the 14.5's just handle better.
I have wanted a 14.5 inch LW 1/7 hammer forged barrel for a VERY long time. I tried to get my hands on a Diemaco but that was not going to happen. I am very happy to see this barrel on the market.
One of my favorite AR's is my C8 clone. It has a Colt factory 14.5 LW 1/7 barrel. I have only seen a few of these and when this one came up for sale I snagged it.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/PWA_C8A1_with_SureFire_659_2.jpg
My favorite work gun is this 14.5 LW 1/7 that started life as a 16 inch colt LW but got cut down.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/z2.jpg
Do people really change FF rails on such a regular basis?
Oh yes. Happens all the time. People want to change something and are totally screwed.
Here is my classic example:
Guy buys a 14.5. Doesn't want a rail on it, just HG's. Has the upper pinned. 6 months later he goes to training class and wants a LT FF rail installed.
Has to have the barrel cut and re-threaded as the pin job ruined the threads on the barrel.
All in all with shipping and such the guy spent over $200 in labor to have it pinned and then un-pinned and then re-pinned. For the same amount of money, he could have just registered his lower as an SBR!
I think what people fail to understand the most is for a little bit more money (or maybe not in the above scenario), they can just have a registered SBR and then can do anything they like.
Let's be honest here, it is 1.5 inches. When people tell me that they have to have a 14.5" barrel I always ask them why? Are you clearing buildings? Nope. Are you operating inside a vehicle? Nope. Are you doing ship boardings? Nope.
THEN WTF OVER???????????????
You are losing FPS and if you are going to attach a suppressor to that pinned 14.5, you have most likely just voided the warranty from the suppressor manufacturer!
Oh well, sorry for the rant folks. Do what you like with your gear.....
C4
spamsammich
02-03-10, 10:04
Sometimes you just gotta touch the hot burner before you learn not to play near the stove. Unfortunately I don't live in a free state so I "just had to" try getting around the NFA rules. I know better now having owned 14.5" and 16" middy barrels. For me the perceived difference in handling isn't worth the hassle of unpinning and doesn't outweigh the benefits of going with a 16" barrel, especially with a pencil profile. I certainly wouldn't have a 16" barrel cut down, if I absolutely had to have a 14.5" barrel, I'd wait until DD turned them out so you wouldn't be hurting the resale value of the barrel.
Grant do you have diameters behind (under handguards), at, and beyond the gas block? .625" for all?
Grant do you have diameters behind (under handguards), at, and beyond the gas block? .625" for all?
Under the HG's, it goes from about .677 down to .599. So it is a gradual taper.
I front of the GB, the barrel does down to .572.
C4
I love pinned 14.5 on personal guns as NFA is not allowed in my state and my current duty gun is a 14.5 Colt M4. For me the 14.5's just handle better.
I have wanted a 14.5 inch LW 1/7 hammer forged barrel for a VERY long time. I tried to get my hands on a Diemaco but that was not going to happen. I am very happy to see this barrel on the market.
One of my favorite AR's is my C8 clone. It has a Colt factory 14.5 LW 1/7 barrel. I have only seen a few of these and when this one came up for sale I snagged it.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/PWA_C8A1_with_SureFire_659_2.jpg
My favorite work gun is this 14.5 LW 1/7 that started life as a 16 inch colt LW but got cut down.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/z2.jpg
Cool, I think a 14.5" DD LW bbl with a FSB and a pinned Vortex is in my future.
RogerinTPA
02-03-10, 17:01
Grant,
Maybe I missed it, besides the Vltor, who is the manufacturer of the other M-4 receivers?
Grant,
Maybe I missed it, besides the Vltor, who is the manufacturer of the other M-4 receivers?
We use a .Mil contract holder (similar to what Noveske and BCM use).
C4
1811tactikool
02-03-10, 18:09
Grant, sent you a PM and an email about putting an upper together for me with a Vltor MUR and 11" Troy TRX Extreme.... Sorry to triple tap you, just got ants in my pants! :D
sundance435
02-03-10, 18:46
Grant,
In the interest of not starting on page 1 of this thread, are these available for sale yet? Do I need to PM or e-mail you to get one?
Thanks
Grant,
In the interest of not starting on page 1 of this thread, are these available for sale yet? Do I need to PM or e-mail you to get one?
Thanks
Yes and no (depends on what you want).
We are leaving for Blackwater tomorrow, but you can send us an e-mail with what you are interested in.
C4
A little unsolicited advice, if you foresee even the slightest possibility of wanting to reconfigure your rail system in the future, just go with the 16" barrel. All I run are pinned 14.5" barrels and I don't recommend them to people that like to tinker or switch things up from time to time. I recognize that there may be a couple ounces worth of weight savings, but my experiment with trying to get around the NFA is over. I'd rather burn calories doing other things besides machining off a flash hider when I want a different rail.
Yep....that's why a 16" mid pencil would be really nice.....
My CMMG .625" FSBs arrived today. They're "F" marked with the following forge code:
<B>1
I compared them to the non-F FSB on my BM Superlight, and they're definitely taller.
$30 a pop from CMMG. I bought one for a DD 14.5" pencil and one for a future 16.1" midlength pencil build.
RogerinTPA
02-04-10, 10:24
Grant,
I like the DD 16" Pencil, LT 11.0 Rail, with SF 212A. Would a DD 11.0 rail weigh less than the LT, and is that an option?
Grant,
I like the DD 16" Pencil, LT 11.0 Rail, with SF 212A. Would a DD 11.0 rail weigh less than the LT, and is that an option?
AFAIK DD doesn't do a regular productiono11.0, but if they did it would tend to be lighter than the LT. Inch for inch, the DD are lighter than the LT regardless of whether you're talking M4 or Lite.
Comparison Chart of FF Rail Systems (http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsFnUZMkZNF2DQ&output=html)
LonghunterCO
02-05-10, 18:37
Sorry.
Man those troy TXR extreme's are light, can't wait until I get my noveske 14.5 N4 carbine upper with one.
I'd be all over a 14.5" pencil barrel....not sure I've decided on a middy or Carbine, but knowing me I'd buy both. :D
I've never been big on bolting a ton of junk to my AR's but lately I've really been wanting a much lighter handier handling carbine.
We just got some 12.5 Pencil (with FSB and without), 14.5 Pencil/carbine (with FSB and without) in stock!
C4
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Daniel%20Defense/14.5_HFP.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Daniel%20Defense/14.5_HFP_FSB.jpg
C4
price on 14.5" no fsb? they are dimpled on bottom for set screw, right?
NCPatrolAR
02-11-10, 16:55
We just got some 12.5 Pencil (with FSB and without), 14.5 Pencil/carbine (with FSB and without) in stock!
C4
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Daniel%20Defense/14.5_HFP.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Daniel%20Defense/14.5_HFP_FSB.jpg
C4
Those 12.5"s look nice
price on 14.5" no fsb? they are dimpled on bottom for set screw, right?
I think I am going to shoot for a price of $250 on the none FSB model and yes it is dimpled.
C4
atlantaguns
02-11-10, 20:01
i cant tell, is there room for a standard handguard cap behind the front site?
We just got some 12.5 Pencil (with FSB and without), 14.5 Pencil/carbine (with FSB and without) in stock!
C4
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Daniel%20Defense/14.5_HFP.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Daniel%20Defense/14.5_HFP_FSB.jpg
C4
Grant, can you PM me the price for a 14.5" pencil with the VLTOR gas block installed?
i cant tell, is there room for a standard handguard cap behind the front site?
Yes there is.
C4
Those 12.5"s look nice
I think the ones in the pictures are 14.5". I agree, they do look nice!
I think the ones in the pictures are 14.5". I agree, they do look nice!
Correct. We will get some 12.5 pics up shortly.
C4
ffhounddog
02-12-10, 09:56
Anyway to get a 14.5 carbine upper complete upper mines flash hider. Need to put my PWS Flash Hider on there for my G5 so I can use it down in Alabama. They do not allow my SBR down there :(
I have DD Omega 7.0 Rails laying around. I am thinking of picking up a BCM but if this is comperable to it I would go this route. Barrel is $250 I see and upper you sale for $95 and a gas tube and delta rings are not expensive so it comes down to labor and any markup you do on a complete upper vice barrel. Oh yeah fixed front site.
Dang I hate having an MBA I think too much about what goes into costs. I do like the 14.5s and I have cleared buildings so I guess I can say the 1.5 inches are important.
Anyway to get a 14.5 carbine upper complete upper mines flash hider. Need to put my PWS Flash Hider on there for my G5 so I can use it down in Alabama. They do not allow my SBR down there :(
I have DD Omega 7.0 Rails laying around. I am thinking of picking up a BCM but if this is comperable to it I would go this route. Barrel is $250 I see and upper you sale for $95 and a gas tube and delta rings are not expensive so it comes down to labor and any markup you do on a complete upper vice barrel. Oh yeah fixed front site.
Dang I hate having an MBA I think too much about what goes into costs. I do like the 14.5s and I have cleared buildings so I guess I can say the 1.5 inches are important.
We generally don't charge anything for assembly (if you buy the components from us).
C4
Grant - email sent on a 14.5 with FSB...
is it possible to get flash hiders permanently attached on the 14.5" without fsb???
I mean, I want an upper built using the 14.5" without FSB and install low-pro gas block. An use the troy handguards.
is it possible to get flash hiders permanently attached on the 14.5" without fsb???
I mean, I want an upper built using the 14.5" without FSB and install low-pro gas block. An use the troy handguards.
Yes it is.
C4
Grant, need a price on the 14.5" govt middy with FSB. I am putting one together, and am weighing my barrel options. Keep up the good work.
DD HF barrels (10.3, 12.5, 14.5, 14.5 Middy) are up on our website!
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=DD-HFB
C4
THanks for the new hole in the budget Grant. Just ordered the 14.5 pencil and Vltor gas block. Now I need to lock down the rest of the specs on this one
pics of 12.5"?
liking the idea of a 12.5" with a 9" troy extreme
I love the look of the 14.5" barrel w/ FSB, just add a pinned extended A2 FS and I will good to go and have the lightest set-up possible.
I'll be using the 16" cut down and an A1 attached for my 653 retro. This is going to be cool. I hope they do a lightweight 11.5 for the XM177E2 copy project later on.
Al U. 5811
02-16-10, 21:37
Has anyone taken delivery of one of these uppers? If so, pix?
Grant, I'm waiting to send you some of my tax return $$ for the 13" TRX I talked of earlier in the thread. It'll make a nice LWT for my Ms.
RiflemanBobcat
02-16-10, 21:45
I'll be using the 16" cut down and an A1 attached for my 653 retro. This is going to be cool. I hope they do a lightweight 11.5 for the XM177E2 copy project later on.
Rather than cutting a 16, maybe consider getting a 14.5 Carbine pencil barrel (http://www.danieldefense.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=253) to begin with? Esp. if you're going to go the SBR route, but there are workarounds, I've heard, to the 14.5 + A1 combination to avoid SBR paperwork, if you're of that mind.
I could be wrong, of course. Just a thought.
Edit to add:
Come to realize (after reading Grant's post) that he sells the 14.5" carbine pencil barrel direct on his website already.
Quick question about the VIS-2 (not "2A"). Will the rail cover up the Vltor gas block?
I'm at the planning stages on my next build and the DD 16" Pencil has my attention.
Thanks guys!
Quick question about the VIS-2 (not "2A"). Will the rail cover up the Vltor gas block?
I'm at the planning stages on my next build and the DD 16" Pencil has my attention.
Thanks guys!
The 9" VIS will cover the majority of the GB.
C4
Thanks for the reply Grant. I just placed an order for the Vltor gas block but forgot to add the 14.5 barrel to it. DOH!! I sent you an email regarding correcting the order. Sorry if this is off topic. :cool:
Can't wait to get this build going!!! I think these barrels are going to be hot sh!t once production ramps up and the word gets out.
-HT
I finally got to shoot a KX3 equipped gun this week, it does just what I have been looking for. Unfortunately it was screwed onto a 16" mid-weight barrel, yuck. I have been really back-and-forth on doing a 13.7"/KX3 barrel. Shooting a KX3 in the setting I normally shoot told me two things: 1- I want a KX3, 2- it needs to be on the lightest barrel/upper possible. I don't want to go NFA for transport issues. If the gun was to stay here at home all the time I would SBR it for sure. I just would rather not deal with the b.s. that can come with transporting SBRs. Would you think me nuts for considering a cut-down 14.5" pencil with a pinned KX3 and light-weight non-quad railed forearm for one on my upper set-ups? Its not my only upper and I don't mind running this little experiment. If I does not work out Ill just SBR for local use and try something else for travel.
The first config that pops into my head is:
flat-top upper
13.7" bbl
pinned KX3
lowpro GB
One of MI's longer SS guards(been wanting to try one of these)
Thank You
Patrick Scott
Would you think me nuts for considering a cut-down 14.5" pencil with a pinned KX3 and light-weight non-quad railed forearm for one on my upper set-ups?
Yep. My opinion is that would be a waste of time and money. If you just can't live with a true 16" bbl then take the 14.5" and pin/weld a F/H of your choice. I think 7.2 oz of metal out there on the end of a 13 point whatever barrel is going to be a wonky mess. The KX3 value is apparent only on the 10 inchers...
openbolt
I will never understand people putting the KX3 on this that and the other longer barrels. Longest I'd put that device on would be a 12.5 and it would be a registered SBR so I could change it out. I would not permanently attach the KX3 to anything. But certainly not to a "pencil" barrel.
As you can guess I have been told this many times. Can some one suggest me a muzzle device that works as well close to the deck, walls and under roofs as the KX3? I am not looking for recoil mitigation or flash hiding. The package has to be 16" OAL.
How much do you think a upper like I suggested would weigh and handle compared to a 16" heavy with quad rails? Would it really be any "worse"?
RiflemanBobcat
02-19-10, 20:43
As you can guess I have been told this many times. Can some one suggest me a muzzle device that works as well close to the deck, walls and under roofs as the KX3? I am not looking for recoil mitigation or flash hiding. The package has to be 16" OAL.
How much do you think a upper like I suggested would weigh and handle compared to a 16" heavy with quad rails? Would it really be any "worse"?
Well, the overall weight might be the same--though I don't know that for sure, not having looked over the numbers--but the balance would probably be different, with the CG more noticeably shifted toward the muzzle, since you're hanging half a pound of metal on there (the Mfg. website lists 7.2 oz, which is darn close to half a pound) as far out as it can possibly go.
So I'd say that the carbine would probably compare rather less favorably to a 16" with rails, unless you really like muzzle-heavy tendencies.
Disclaimer: all of the foregoing is based on what little I do know, and I make no claims to expertise.
As you can guess I have been told this many times. Can some one suggest me a muzzle device that works as well close to the deck, walls and under roofs as the KX3? I am not looking for recoil mitigation or flash hiding. The package has to be 16" OAL.
How much do you think a upper like I suggested would weigh and handle compared to a 16" heavy with quad rails? Would it really be any "worse"?
Are you in a state that does not allow flash suppressors?
C4
Nice to see that you have the 14" on the site and in stock. When do you think you might have 16" pencils?
Nice to see that you have the 14" on the site and in stock. When do you think you might have 16" pencils?
Very soon. We even went out and tracked down .625 HG caps so folks could use standard HG's with the barrels.
C4
atlantaguns
02-20-10, 10:53
Very soon. We even went out and tracked down .625 HG caps so folks could use standard HG's with the barrels.
C4
smart move.
Are you in a state that does not allow flash suppressors?
C4
They are fine here.
They are fine here.
Gotcha. Then why do you need a MB?
To me personally, the only use for a MB is with a suppressor so as to cut down on the damage done to the first baffle.
C4
Mr. Ken Hackathorn had us build a custom Daniel Defense gun for him and picked it up today. I always enjoy building high end weapons for people that know what they like and why they like it.
Here is a list of the components chosen:
DD M4 Upper Receiver
DD 14.5" Pencil (carbine gas)
VLTOR .625 GB
DD 9.0 Omega X Rail
DD Lower
G&R Tactical LPK
Magpul Enhanced Trigger Guard
DD M16 BCG (fitted)
H Buffer
SF 212A
Magpul MOE Grip
Weight: 6 pounds, 10 ounces
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Daniel%20Defense/KenH_Build.jpg
C4
SeriousStudent
02-20-10, 15:18
Very nice!
I hope Mr. Hackathorn's back is feeling better.
Did he mention what optic and light combo he would be using on that carbine, keeping with the lightweight build? I am just wondering. I'm guessing a Aimpoint T-1/H-1, but was especially curious about the RDS mount, and light he would pick.
Thanks! :)
Who is Ken Hackathorn, anyway? Just kidding. :D. Nice work! That is just about the exact setup I had in mind, for my DD pencil build (two middy's were slated first, and to be completed early next week, but USPS LOST ONE OF MY BARRELS ON WEDNESDAY!!!! :mad::eek:). Is Ken's muzzle device pinned? Again, nice job, and that has to be a good feeling, having customers like Ken.
Gotcha. Then why do you need a MB?
To me personally, the only use for a MB is with a suppressor so as to cut down on the damage done to the first baffle.
C4
I don't want to ruin this thread any more than I already have so I will end with this. I am looking for optimal blast diversion especially close to the deck in prone and ROP. I hate the kick-up in ROP sometimes.
ffhounddog
02-20-10, 16:56
Hey Grant placed a order over the phone Friday about a upper build on a 14.5 with no Flash Hider. Do not know if it was shipped but we made an online account over the phone.
Sent a email from my Army account but it is probally behind all the 1000 other emails you have gotten.
Rich
Very nice!
I hope Mr. Hackathorn's back is feeling better.
Did he mention what optic and light combo he would be using on that carbine, keeping with the lightweight build? I am just wondering. I'm guessing a Aimpoint T-1/H-1, but was especially curious about the RDS mount, and light he would pick.
Thanks! :)
His back is feeling much better.
He mentioned that these pencil barrels really call for a Micro Aimpoint. He will most likely run either the DD mount or the ADM. For irons, I am guessing that he will use DD's.
C4
Who is Ken Hackathorn, anyway? Just kidding. :D. Nice work! That is just about the exact setup I had in mind, for my DD pencil build (two middy's were slated first, and to be completed early next week, but USPS LOST ONE OF MY BARRELS ON WEDNESDAY!!!! :mad::eek:). Is Ken's muzzle device pinned? Again, nice job, and that has to be a good feeling, having customers like Ken.
Yes on being pinned.
Ken has been coming up to our shop for a couple years now and we value his knowledge and friendship.
C4
I don't want to ruin this thread any more than I already have so I will end with this. I am looking for optimal blast diversion especially close to the deck in prone and ROP. I hate the kick-up in ROP sometimes.
Gotcha. So your biggest concern when choosing a FH device is how dust is kicked up in the prone position?
How much shooting do you do in this position?
C4
Gotcha. So your biggest concern when choosing a FH device is how dust is kicked up in the prone position?
How much shooting do you do in this position?
C4
I said I wouldn't, but..
It's close to the top of my list. I don't night shoot much so flash is not my biggest concern. I practice awkward positions more than "standard" ones as I like to work on my weaknesses, because of that I am ROP quite often on a multitude of surfaces. Even with eye-pro you cant stop dust/sand from getting in your eyes sometimes. I doubt I can prevent it completely, but I would like to minimize it.
On a side note I am not an "operator" nor do I consider my self a "mall ninja" I do however enjoy the challenge of becoming a proficient shooter in all aspects. My background is precision rifles, but I wanted to try my hand at carbine shooting and have been dabbling it for only three years. Sad as it may seem my whole reasoning behind this is mine and my shooting buddies comfort. This is just a hobby for me after all.
Thanks for everyone's help and input.
post tensioned
02-21-10, 15:11
Just placed an order for a 10.3" no FSB barrel. I think the question was asked earlier, but I wanted to confirm that the barrels w/o FSB have the dimple for a gas block set crew.
Just placed an order for a 10.3" no FSB barrel. I think the question was asked earlier, but I wanted to confirm that the barrels w/o FSB have the dimple for a gas block set crew.
Yes on the dimples.
C4
Here is an upper build we did with Magpul's MOE HG's. This thing weighed in at 2pounds and 14 ounces!
SPECS:
DD 14.5" Pencil barrel
DD M4 Upper
BCM A2X FS (making it 16" overall)
Magpul MOE HG
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/GR%20Custom%20Builds/DD_Pencil_MOE_145.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/GR%20Custom%20Builds/DD_Pencil_MOE_145a.jpg
C4
Here is a 12.5 Upper Build.
SPECS:
DD 12.5 HF Barrel
DD M4 Upper
RAS (blem) Built by the current .Mil Contract holder
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/GR%20Custom%20Builds/DD_125_RAS.jpg
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/GR%20Custom%20Builds/DD_125_RAS1.jpg
C4
Grant, Thanks for posting these SWEET DD Pencil Barrel Upper pics = AWESOME !!! :D
Please keep us posted with pics & updates, Appreciate it.
Here is an upper build we did with Magpul's MOE HG's. This thing weighed in at 2pounds and 14 ounces!
SPECS:
DD 14.5" Pencil barrel
DD M4 Upper
BCM A2X FS (making it 16" overall)
Magpul MOE HG
I like this a LOT.
ffhounddog
02-22-10, 09:01
Thanks Grant for the email back.
My wife is trying to sale her Middy upper for one of these. She says it is right up her ally. She likes the Vltor Comp better than some of the others.
Rich
Interesting that no one caught the RAS installed on the 12.5 upper. Hmmm thought you guys were better than that. :D
C4
ffhounddog
02-22-10, 11:31
It looks great Grant. That RAS is the bees knees. A Blemish and it looks good. I want give it to me.
Is that what you were looking for :D
It looks great Grant. That RAS is the bees knees. A Blemish and it looks good. I want give it to me.
Is that what you were looking for :D
LOL, these RAS's are from the new contract holder for the Military (and are not seen often on the net).
C4
LOL, these RAS's are from the new contract holder for the Military (and are not seen often on the net).
C4
Ah, I didn't get it. The numbers did look a little funny.
A RAS made by someone other than KAC? I have seen VFGs that were made by people other than KAC, but not any RASs. Who is it?
Dustin
Ah, I didn't get it. The numbers did look a little funny.
A RAS made by someone other than KAC? I have seen VFGs that were made by people other than KAC, but not any RASs. Who is it?
Dustin
The Govt did a solicitation for the RAS and a company called Molding Solutions won it.
They cannot sell the RAS to the public, but we got some of the blems (that are not fit for .Mil contracts) to sell. They come with 4 panels, VG and the RAS for $175!
C4
Grant,
Since you only have 14.5 FSP's left, do you have any FSP rails that will go out past Carbine length for these pencil setups?
Thanks!
Rob Haught
02-22-10, 12:17
I got to see one of these Sunday at the Ft Harmar Study Group. Looks great. Will be doing one just like it soon.
Rob
Grant,
Since you only have 14.5 FSP's left, do you have any FSP rails that will go out past Carbine length for these pencil setups?
Thanks!
Yes we do.
We also have more of the 14.5" carbine barrels on order.
C4
I got to see one of these Sunday at the Ft Harmar Study Group. Looks great. Will be doing one just like it soon.
Rob
It didn't happen to have this guy attached to it did it? :D
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r147/VickersTactical/M4c%20Class%20-%20Feb%202010/daytwo38.jpg
C4
Hmmm thought you guys were better than that. :D
"He was Doyle's best shooter."
"I heard you was the best... "
"Nah, just the best looking."
Thanks Grant.
Do you have any DD X FSB's?
Might just wait for new batch, have to decide.
Thanks Grant.
Do you have any DD X FSB's?
Might just wait for new batch, have to decide.
Yes we do.
C4
Grant,
I think I want to go with the same upper you built for Ken and maybe add some KAC BUIS. Do you know when this might be able to come together?
Grant,
I think I want to go with the same upper you built for Ken and maybe add some KAC BUIS. Do you know when this might be able to come together?
All components are available (less maybe the KAC BUIS).
C4
ffhounddog
02-22-10, 19:02
The Govt did a solicitation for the RAS and a company called Molding Solutions won it.
They cannot sell the RAS to the public, but we got some of the blems (that are not fit for .Mil contracts) to sell. They come with 4 panels, VG and the RAS for $175!
C4
They look nice only difference is the white numbers.
Will have to think of getting one sometime soon. Especially if my wife gets a new upper because then she will get one of the DD Omega 7.0s and will need to get something else to put it on.
Grant,
Will the pencil barrel be offered in the 14.5 midlength configuration or just the 16 midlength? After seeing Mr. Hackathorn's rifle on page 10, I'm really jonesing for the set up with a midlength barrel and maybe an Omega X 12.0 with a lopro gas block or the Omega X 9.0 with the FSB.
Grant,
Will the pencil barrel be offered in the 14.5 midlength configuration or just the 16 midlength? After seeing Mr. Hackathorn's rifle on page 10, I'm really jonesing for the set up with a midlength barrel and maybe an Omega X 12.0 with a lopro gas block or the Omega X 9.0 with the FSB.
Just 16" at this time.
C4
Mr. Ken Hackathorn had us build a custom Daniel Defense gun for him and picked it up today. I always enjoy building high end weapons for people that know what they like and why they like it.
Here is a list of the components chosen:
DD M4 Upper Receiver
DD 14.5" Pencil (carbine gas)
VLTOR .625 GB
DD 9.0 Omega X Rail
DD Lower
G&R Tactical LPK
Magpul Enhanced Trigger Guard
DD M16 BCG (fitted)
H Buffer
SF 212A
Magpul MOE Grip
Weight: 6 pounds, 10 ounces
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Daniel%20Defense/KenH_Build.jpg
C4
Wow, almost the exact setup I was dreaming about when I saw page 1 posted.
wild_wild_wes
02-23-10, 22:07
Very nice!
I hope Mr. Hackathorn's back is feeling better.
Did he mention what optic and light combo he would be using on that carbine, keeping with the lightweight build? I am just wondering. I'm guessing a Aimpoint T-1/H-1, but was especially curious about the RDS mount, and light he would pick.
Thanks! :)
The T-1 is the natural for these Lightweight builds!
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k132/pseudonominus/UB1-3.jpg
wild_wild_wes
02-23-10, 22:15
Yes we do.
We also have more of the 14.5" carbine barrels on order.
C4
Are you going to get any 16" Midlength pencil barrels in?
Grant,
What are the weight differences between a 16" M4 carbine barrel, the 14.5" midlength barrel, and the 16" light weight midlength barrel, if you happen to have the information yet?
Also, would it be possible to fit the 14.5 gov't profile with a lo pro gas block under an Omega X 12.0 rail?
Grant,
What are the weight differences between a 16" M4 carbine barrel, the 14.5" midlength barrel, and the 16" light weight midlength barrel, if you happen to have the information yet?
Also, would it be possible to fit the 14.5 gov't profile with a lo pro gas block under an Omega X 12.0 rail?
The M4 and the 14.5 middy (DD) are very similar with the 14.5 being lighter.
No idea on the DD 16" pencil middy as it has not come out yet.
C4
Are you going to get any 16" Midlength pencil barrels in?
They are on order.
C4
The M4 and the 14.5 middy (DD) are very similar with the 14.5 being lighter.
No idea on the DD 16" pencil middy as it has not come out yet.
C4
Thanks Grant.
Would it be possible to fit the 14.5 gov't profile with a lo pro gas block under an Omega X 12.0 rail?
Thanks Grant.
Would it be possible to fit the 14.5 gov't profile with a lo pro gas block under an Omega X 12.0 rail?
Yes (do it all the time).
C4
TheGhostRider
02-24-10, 17:24
Very soon. We even went out and tracked down .625 HG caps so folks could use standard HG's with the barrels.
C4
Howdy Grant,
How do I buy a DD 14.5 carbine pencil barrel with the hand guard cap installed.
I didn't see the caps listed on your site nor as an option on the barrel ordering page.
Thanks,
TGR
Howdy Grant,
How do I buy a DD 14.5 carbine pencil barrel with the hand guard cap installed.
I didn't see the caps listed on your site nor as an option on the barrel ordering page.
Thanks,
TGR
We have not put them up on the website yet.
C4
vicious_cb
02-24-10, 20:08
The T-1 is the natural for these Lightweight builds!
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k132/pseudonominus/UB1-3.jpg
Looks great! But I wouldnt call a VIS lightweight. You could have probably saved another 1/4 lb by using a standard receiver and rail.
wild_wild_wes
02-24-10, 21:45
want 16" CHF pencil barrrel
They are on order.
C4
;)
Grant,
These look awesome! Do you know the weight on the DD 16" pencil with a Vltor LPGB and Troy TRX 9"?
Here are prices on the uppers listed:
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/GR%20Custom%20Builds/DD_Pencil_Builds.jpg
1. M4 upper, DD 16P, LT 9.0, SF CA556SA, Magpul MBUS Sights, VLTOR GB $802
2. M4 upper, DD 16P, LT 11.0, SF 212A, VLTOR GB $778
3. M4 upper, DD 16P, VLTOR VIS2A, VLTOR VC-1, VLTOR GB $1030
4. M4 upper, DD 16P, Troy 9.0 Extreme, VLTOR GB, A2 FS $564
We can add and remove flash suppressors or change out rail's or length's.
C4
Grant, how much is option 2 with a perm attached PWS556, set of Troys, BCM bolt and Gunfighter?
SeriousStudent
02-25-10, 19:37
Grant,
These look awesome! Do you know the weight on the DD 16" pencil with a Vltor LPGB and Troy TRX 9"?
I'll let you know when mine arrives. :D
You have a PM.
Grant, how much is option 2 with a perm attached PWS556, set of Troys, BCM bolt and Gunfighter?
We don't offer the PWS556.
C4
We don't offer the PWS556.
C4
ok, surefire muzzle brake then?
wild_wild_wes
02-25-10, 20:44
Will we be able to get the 16" middy pencil with FSBs and handguard caps?
And assembled onto a flat-top upper with delta ring assembly?
ok, surefire muzzle brake then?
The uppers in the pic are 16" so there is need to pin anything. That is also the SF 212A (not the MB556k).
C4
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