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RWBlue
03-30-07, 16:11
Anyone got a Rock River Arms LAR rifle?

Are there any reviews out there?

Btrain
04-01-07, 21:31
No.

They havent been released yet.

There is the ongoing lawsuit by Armalite, and the rumors that it isnt working yet.

RRA is using the same plans Bushmaster had with their failed .308. Seems the FAL mag is great int heory, but hard to work with an AR.

so, no rifles, no reviews, no real release date.

persona non grata
04-07-07, 02:13
Vaporware.

Pullo
05-02-07, 05:33
June is the new month that Rock River is pushing. On a good note, my two Bushmaster 308s have the new Armalite ALOSTYR 2 piece aluminum handguards on them. No mods needed to get them to fit , they are nice and rock solid. I was surprised.

Btrain
05-02-07, 20:34
Suuurrrrree.

June.


Any word when the 458 SOCOM will be out?????


Is there anything else that RRA has on their website that doesnt exist? I mean, they could start "Selling" Jimmy Hoffa's teeth. Same business model- lets sell what we dont have.

persona non grata
05-02-07, 20:57
I wouldn't want to get one of the first rifles to leave the factory anyway. I'm not sure that the RRA is going to be any better than Bushy's .308 debacle. All of those guys getting hyped up are likely to be disappointed, IMO. I'll let them pay RRA to be a beta tester. :cool:

Pullo
05-03-07, 07:54
My personal Bushmaster 308 midlength has 2 piece railed ALOSTYR handguards and a milspec carbine buffer tube and CTR stock with one of Slash's carbine buffers. New improved bolt from Bushmaster and runs like a top. I love it. Im working on the YHM suppressor. Rapid fire 308 sounds really cool too.:D

Voodoochild
05-03-07, 08:44
DPMS 308's are pretty nice as well. As for RRA I don't think they can ship any or sell any until the lawsuit with Armalite gets settled. But don't quote me on that.

Steel_Weasel
05-03-07, 14:21
Anyone know the basis of Armalite's lawsuit ? It would seem strange that Armalite wouldn't sue Bushmaster when they made it but now want to nail RRA :confused:

Voodoochild
05-03-07, 14:43
Anyone know the basis of Armalite's lawsuit ? It would seem strange that Armalite wouldn't sue Bushmaster when they made it but now want to nail RRA :confused:

I believe it was over the naming of the rifle "LAR-10" they have since changed it to "LAR-8"

Crash
05-03-07, 18:43
There was a thread on TOS claiming that the lawsuit was settled and that RRA was cleared to proceed.

I'll look for it...

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=62&t=324945


From the ArmaLite Industry Partner:


ArmaLite and RRA have reached a settlement of the lawsuit. RRA is adopting a different mark and ArmaLite is dismissing its complaint.

ArmaLite will make no other comment concerning the specifics of the case.

persona non grata
05-03-07, 20:17
Anyone know the basis of Armalite's lawsuit ? It would seem strange that Armalite wouldn't sue Bushmaster when they made it but now want to nail RRA :confused:

Shortly after the release of the BAR-10, Bushmaster & ArmaLite came to a 'gentleman's agreement' and the name was changed.

One would think that RRA should have had the foresight to anticipate a similar reaction to their LAR-10. IT took a federal suit to bring RRA around to ArmaLite's way of thinking. :rolleyes:

As I understand things, there is bad blood between the Westroms and RRA, whose owners were once ArmaLite employees.

RWBlue
05-04-07, 13:55
[QUOTE=persona non grata;51457]One would think that RRA should have had the foresight to anticipate a similar reaction to their LAR-10. IT took a federal suit to bring RRA around to ArmaLite's way of thinking. :rolleyes: [QUOTE]

Lawyers being lawyers.

I don't see a patton/trademark infrengement by calling it LAR-10. Anymore than all the AR-15, HBAR-15, SAR-15 out there.

But I think if I was RRA, I would have named it RRA-10.

SHIVAN
05-05-07, 22:33
I don't see a patton...patent/trademark infrengement by calling it LAR-10. Anymore than all the AR-15, HBAR-15, SAR-15 out there.

Who holds the patent or trademark for AR-15?

I believe the answer is no one. If some entity does, they have long ago forgone their ability to protect that trademark.

Why?

For one, the TDP is in the hands of at least TWO manufacturers. How can you claim rights to something to which you have given the TDP to someone else to make the EXACT product??

Short answer: You can't defend it under thos conditions.

In summary, the AR-10 vs. AR-15 trademark comparison fails on so many levels that we should probably call them more different than alike.

Seeing as how RRA has changed the name, let's just say that apparently there was a compilation of evidence that would have probably won ArmaLite's case in court.

Anyone can disagree all they like, but the new product is called the LAR-8 and solves any trademarks violations that were previously present.

VA_Dinger
05-07-07, 09:21
Is the RRA project on hold?

SHIVAN
05-07-07, 11:28
Is the RRA project on hold?

No, they settled the matter out of court and RRA is calling their .308 AR the "LAR-8".

persona non grata
05-07-07, 12:35
Is the RRA project on hold?

The only things holding them up now are design flaws and production delays.

RWBlue
05-08-07, 15:58
In summary, the AR-10 vs. AR-15 trademark comparison fails on so many levels that we should probably call them more different than alike.

Seeing as how RRA has changed the name, let's just say that apparently there was a compilation of evidence that would have probably won ArmaLite's case in court.

Anyone can disagree all they like, but the new product is called the LAR-8 and solves any trademarks violations that were previously present.


Although I agree with the end conclusion is the end conclusion, it doesn't make sence.

You can not trademark a number (i.e. as Intel found out with their 486). So they are trademarking the "AR". Well that doesn't make sence because of the AR-15s. So they are arguing over the combination of letters and numbers. In that case the RRA-10 makes alot more sense than the LAR-8.

Oh well, stupid is as stupid does when it comes to legal minds.

SHIVAN
05-08-07, 17:46
Although I agree with the end conclusion is the end conclusion, it doesn't make sence.

You can not trademark a number (i.e. as Intel found out with their 486). So they are trademarking the "AR". Well that doesn't make sence because of the AR-15s. So they are arguing over the combination of letters and numbers. In that case the RRA-10 makes alot more sense than the LAR-8.

Oh well, stupid is as stupid does when it comes to legal minds.

I don't wish to belabor this point, but "AR-10" is the trademark.

Not "AR" not "-", not "10", not "-10". Deconstructing the trademark for the purposes of analysis of what each part means is a fruitless pursuit. That's like saying you can't trademark the letter J, so anyone, including Jeep, can't use it as part of their trademark. Yikes.

The owners/founders of Rock River Arms are named Larson. What does "-10" mean to them? No idea.

To a company trying to stick to the ArmaLite heritage, it was ArmaLite/Fairchild's 10th prototype weapon. So you can see why it would mean something to ArmaLite, Inc.

So for RRA, the prefix LAR stands for Larson, and -8 stands for whatever they want it to....the combination LAR-8 stands for their new .308 AR.

<<shrugs>>

In real life, call it whatever you like. It doesn't make calling a Glock mag a "clip" correct, but I might know what you mean. ;)

Voodoochild
05-08-07, 18:25
Correct me if I am wrong but weren't the owners/founders of RRA former Armalite employee's?

persona non grata
05-08-07, 21:37
Shortly after the release of the BAR-10, Bushmaster & ArmaLite came to a 'gentleman's agreement' and the name was changed.

One would think that RRA should have had the foresight to anticipate a similar reaction to their LAR-10. IT took a federal suit to bring RRA around to ArmaLite's way of thinking. :rolleyes:

As I understand things, there is bad blood between the Westroms and RRA, whose owners were once ArmaLite employees.


Correct me if I am wrong but weren't the owners/founders of RRA former Armalite employee's?

See above. ;)

RWBlue
05-09-07, 08:03
In real life, call it whatever you like.

I think you have a point, they could call it "Charlene", if it works I would buy it.

macman37
05-17-07, 07:36
Correct if I'm wrong but wasn't the AR originally created in .308? Weren't the problems with it worked out back in the fifties?

Or are the problems only related to specifics to this project, like the changes that were required to use FAL mags in this new rifle for example?

Pullo
05-17-07, 08:33
Shot the other Busmaster 308 this weekend , I have two. It was this ones first time to the range. The 308 bolt is huge and drinks alot more oil than a 5.56, I think its longer than the DPMS and Armalite 308s, someone correct me If Im wrong. No major malfunctions the bolt didnt break or anything, sorry. It grouped well, the Eotech felt right at home on the 308. The funny thing is that these two Bushys were given to me by my uncle, so maybe its irony that has kept me from experiencing any problems.

persona non grata
05-17-07, 12:30
Correct if I'm wrong but wasn't the AR originally created in .308? Weren't the problems with it worked out back in the fifties?

Or are the problems only related to specifics to this project, like the changes that were required to use FAL mags in this new rifle for example?

I think that you hit it dead on with the second part.

My understanding is that RRA created the original design for the Bushmaster gun and sold/licensed it to BFI. As a result of design flaws and bad marketing decisions, the gun was a flop. Now RRA is attempting to re-work the design around the same mags, and repeating BFI's blunders. Along with a legacy of bolt breakage, the fact that they aren't offering no chrome lined barrels or S/S barrels is going to seriously limit their target market.

As an aside, I find it ironic that RRA and their blowhard diehard fans are raving about the platform running on $5 mags, while even the RRA mod at TOS has admitted that a significant number of mags will not function in their new baby. Indeed, if cheap surplus FAL mags actually ran well in the gun, RRA would have no reason to manufacture their own mags.

Anyone wanna bet that RRA will not be selling their factory mags for $5 a copy? ;)

C4IGrant
05-19-07, 10:36
At the recent Vickers/Hackathorn low light class, a student asked if there were any good AR10's on the market and the answer was no.

My question to you AR10 fans is this, what other 308 chambered battle rifle has a gas imp. system in it???


C4

Pullo
05-20-07, 08:00
While I would love to have a POF 308 or HK 417 or a SCAR 308 they are not easily aquired, or proven platforms. Im just reporting what I have experienced without giving an opinion on something I have not fired or even seen in person, like most people on the errornet. But if Larry says the FAL works, I will definetly try to get one,but I just bought two LMT uppers and lowers, BCGs charging handles, 30 mags , 2 ALOSTYR rails, 4 vertical grips, 1500 rnds of Tap ammunition,etc.... So give me a while to save up for my suppressors and then Ill try to get that FAL.:)

ST911
05-20-07, 11:20
At the recent Vickers/Hackathorn low light class, a student asked if there were any good AR10's on the market and the answer was no.

Any consensus in that group on what got the closest, or was the best candidate for a rework?

I've seen a couple of lists of things to do, and a couple of tweaked/project/concept guns that did well. The exception, not the rule, though.

C4IGrant
05-20-07, 12:44
Any consensus in that group on what got the closest, or was the best candidate for a rework?

I've seen a couple of lists of things to do, and a couple of tweaked/project/concept guns that did well. The exception, not the rule, though.


Really what it comes down to is, the weapon have a gas piston. If the answer is no, then forget about it. I would aggree with this.

Personally, I would just get an FAL or PTR-91 (if you cannot wait). If you can wait, the HK 417 should be a winner and so should the Masada and or Scar Heavy.



C4

Pullo
09-17-07, 06:21
Where to begin.......sigh..,
So I have learned some interesting things about the two Bushmaster 308s I have by tinkering with them and time spent at the range. Im sure what I have to say will not be shocking to any of the helpful and knowledgable people here.


Okay having an "A2 16inch upper" the first rifles lower has a milspec carbine stock using the Slash buffer, the original rifle length buffer spring has to be trimmed down so the bolt can lock back on an empty mag.
I tried using a carbine AR-10 spring but it had to be trimmed as well, to get the bolt to lock back.
So I got that spring in there just right and everything worked when I shot the rifle, no malfunctions.
This rifle has a 2000# seriel.

The upper on the second rifle is an A3 railed 16 inch, the lower is the standard rifle length skeleton stock.
It shot great at the range no malfunctions.
It has a 700# seriel.

So, I wanted to switch uppers, I put the A3 upper on the carbine stocked lower. I went to the range to shoot it.

Guess what happened, the first three rounds went okay, but then the bolt over rode the next round a little, but still managed to "bend" the round up into the chamber. Not all the way though.
After clearing and reloading and trying again the same thing would happen. Okay so its gotta be the mag, I thought, everybody knows Fal mags can be trouble,lol.

Nope, changing mags didnt work, plus these mags worked flawless before.
It was like the bolt was way higher than it should be,or the mag was to low.
I couldnt figure that one out.

Okay so I gave up and switched back to the way the rifle was before,
and it functioned flawlessly, with the same mags.

I think Bushmaster had to Piece these 308s together. The different uppers and lowers just dont mate right.

Im mad that the uppers and lowers dont interchange without malfunctions. This is the first Ive heard of this. But Im not too surprised.

The other thing I learned was that the magwells on these rifles will not seat the DSArms 30 round Fal mags neither metric or inch would fit both type versions they sell are curved. So I wouldnt think thet would fit in the Rock River.
It would have to take a straight 30 rnd mag to fit in the Bushmaster or Rock River mag well.

I am NOT interested to see if Rock River can correct the problems I encountered.
Ive also given up on modifying these Bushmaster rifles any more.
Im over it.