Both Eyes Open, Pistol iron sights?

[An Undocumented Worker]

Shooting both eyes open with the ghost ring sights on my AR is no problem, nor is using the Acog with both eyes either an issue, at any range/distance.

Shooting a pistol with the standard 3dot, notch/post style sights is difficult when keeping both eyes open. Mainly because when focusing on the front sight, the target doubles, and at 25 yards this becomes a problem. Or is there a different technique I should be using with a pistol to shoot both eyes open?:confused:

[John_Wayne777]

I have the same sort of double issue myself. No matter what range I'm at, I can choose between seeing two sets of sights or two targets. I obviously choose to see two sets of sights. I've had the issue as long as I can remember, and it's only fairly recently that I've come to the conclusion that most people don't see the way that I see. As an example, when I drive down the road and I'm looking out at the highway, I see two sets of wiper blades on my windshield. When I look at the wiper blades I see two highways. (Sometimes 1.5 depending on how far down the road I'm looking) From what I understand most people don't see things that way.

...but that doesn't mean I can't see my sights. What I've learned over time is how to have a clear, sharp focus on the sights even though I'm looking "through" them to a degree in order to see one target. A while back I started from scratch on my handgun skills and part of that process was learning how to see my sights. At first I just had the same confusing ball-o-crap I always had but over time through simply aiming a gun (unloaded, of course) at various household objects (light switches, even a bulls-eye target I hung up) at varying distances under varying light conditions I trained my brain to start to make sense out of my sight picture.

Vision is difficult because each of us sees the world uniquely. Think about it: What is "blue"? What does "blue" look like through someone else's eyes? Trippy, innit?

Unfortunately there's no magic technique that will instantly make everything comfortable for you. You simply have to practice getting a useful visual reference, training your brain to see what it needs to see and to ignore the extraneous nonsense that shows up in your field of view. Thankfully this is something you can do at home without firing a shot if you so desire. At some point you need to begin to integrate visual training with live fire, but most of it can be accomplished at home.

You may even wish to invest in an airsoft gun similar to your main piece and start practicing with that as well.

On your real gun you might want to play with different methods of making the front sight stand out. Personally I find standard 3 dot setups to be a huge pain in the ass. Yes, I can use them...but I prefer arrangements where the front sight is highly visible compared to the rear notch. On a standard 3 dot sight picture the easiest thing to do is sharpie out the rear dots. That tends to draw my focus more naturally to the front sight. I also tend to paint the visible surface of my front sight some loud color (generally canary yellow model paint) so that in conditions where lighting is sort of blech my front sight stands out against the background.

Ultimately this is something you will have to figure out through trial and error. All folks here can do is sort of point you in the right direction. It may be that to get any useful hits at 25 yards you need to close one eye...if so, do it. Ultimately what we're trying to do here is get hits. While it's more ideal to have both eyes open, if you can't make hits that way it's useless to you. See what you need to see to get the hits.

[An Undocumented Worker]

That is basically what I have been trying to do so far. I can pick out the correct set of sights much easier than the correct set of targets, when looking past the sights but still aware of them.

I'm just not sure if the "sharp focus on the front sight" still applies when shooting with both eyes open on a pistol. From the sight picture I get when trying that, it just isn't possible to be sure of the target you are aiming at, if maintaining sharp focus on the front sight.

[Jay Cunningham]

Personally, if you are shooting at 25 yards and you need to close one eye to get your hits, I don't think it's a big deal.

[An Undocumented Worker]

It may not be a big deal to close one eye for that amount of range to target, but if it is possible shooting at distance with both eyes open is a skill I want to work on.

[Jay Cunningham]

As JW alluded to in his edit, blacking out the rear may allow you to focus more on the front.

[JeffWard]

Most of the guys I shoot with (USPSA) who are shooting open-sight pistols, shoot two eyes open inside of about 10-12 yards, and at least squint one eye out past 20 yards. From 10-20 yards??? Depends on the size of the target, and movement.

I can place precise hits with both eyes open out to about 15 yards. if I'm shooting a 8" plate at 25 yards, on the clock, my weak eye is almost completely closed.

Shooting my AR, everything inside 50 yards is shot with my scope on 1X and both eyes open.

Jeff

[John_Wayne777]

I'm just not sure if the "sharp focus on the front sight" still applies when shooting with both eyes open on a pistol. From the sight picture I get when trying that, it just isn't possible to be sure of the target you are aiming at, if maintaining sharp focus on the front sight.

For your eyes it may not be possible. I don't know because short of hacking into your brain there's no way I or anyone else can know what the world looks like through your eyes.

All I can tell you is that I once thought the very same thing and I've found with practice I can see the sights clearly and I can see the target clearly enough to hit it when I do my part on the sight alignment, trigger control, and not-jerking-the piss-out-of-the-shot fronts. I can see the sights with what I believe is excellent clarity and I still see one target.

You can probably learn to do the same although what it takes for you to achieve it may be different. I've heard some people say that focusing on an imaginary point between the sights and the target allows them to see both with decent enough clarity to get the hits. You may also want to consider going to the eye doctor to figure out if you have any underlying vision issues that are complicating matters. When I figured out I saw the world differently than others claimed to I went to the eye doc and there was basically nothing he could do for me. My issue is apparently something to do with the way my brain processes signals either because I'm a mutant or because I caught a line drive with my eye socket as a kid. My eyes themselves function within normal parameters as far as I can tell. When they did the vision test thing I came in at normal in one eye and better than normal in the other.

If you have underlying vision issues, discovering and correcting them might help.

[6933]

At each TigerSwan pistol class I have attended, the instructors said go with what works; be it both eyes open or one eye closed. I figure they know a little somethin':p

[ToddG]

While there are benefits to shooting with both eyes open, those benefits are fairly minor and cannot outweigh more fundamental things like "getting hits." Some of the best shooters I know close one eye.

Some of the worst shooters I know close both eyes, but that's another story. :cool:

[BLACK LION]

True enough we cannot see or shoot through your eyes so all I can add tot he pile of nuggets here is what has already been mentioned and thats to try "blackening" out either the front dot or rear dot. I used a sharpie to fill in the white dot on my front sight and it helped me. I am going to try just blackening the rear dots and see if there is a difference, besides I have to consider low light and the need for a front sight over rear sights. I will most likely switch to blackened rear and "hi-viz" front. I have still done well at tracking in low light with the way things currently are.
Definately a bunch-o-shyt to play with until one feels truly squared away.

Like Todd and others have added, you will do what the situation dictates. I find myself partially squinting one or both eyes to get "hits" depending on glare, refection, dust , sand , sweat, blood or what have you. I dont always have to squint or crick one eye and I like to keep them both open as much a possible to cut down on strain and stress . I grew up shooting with a squint, then moved to a "crick" and then to both eyes open so I am comfortable reverting to any of those methods depending on the situation.

[esskay]

I have the same sort of double issue myself. No matter what range I'm at, I can choose between seeing two sets of sights or two targets. I obviously choose to see two sets of sights. I've had the issue as long as I can remember, and it's only fairly recently that I've come to the conclusion that most people don't see the way that I see. As an example, when I drive down the road and I'm looking out at the highway, I see two sets of wiper blades on my windshield. When I look at the wiper blades I see two highways. (Sometimes 1.5 depending on how far down the road I'm looking) From what I understand most people don't see things that way.


A very interesting point! I think my vision works similar to yours, and I'm also recently coming to believe that I'm a freak like you. ;)

There are three items at three different distances we're dealing with:
- rear sight
- front sight
- target

Focus: With either one or both eyes open, of those three things, I can only have one of them in focus. i.e. front sight clear, rear sight & target fuzzy. Or target clear, front sight and rear sight fuzzy. I think basically everyone's eyes are like this (putting aside the "in between" focus technique that some use).

Single/double image: Obviously with one eye closed, I don't get any double images. However, with both eyes open, of those three things, one is a single image and the other two are double images. e.g. one target, two front sights, two rear sights. Or one front sight, two targets, two rear sights.

As you are saying, it seems many people don't have this problem! At a Vickers' class and a USTC class, both instructors did not share this issue. I asked, and LAV said he didn't see two targets and neither did Col Go. Both, like Todd, prioritized accurate shooting over both eyes open.

To this point I've basically been shooting with both eyes open, focused on the target (single image) and I've learned to ignore the double images on the front sight and rear sight. When I need extra precision on a long shot, I'll either close my left eye and then shift focus to the front sight and break the shot, or if I have more time I might keep both eyes open, play with shifting focus between the front sight and target (kind of ignoring the second target image) and then break the shot. Perhaps with more practice I might be able to speed up that process, since when shooting with one eye closed I feel it's harder to call my shots (I should say it's hard enough for me trying to see my sights lift with both eyes, with one eye it seems nigh impossible). Relatively speaking, I'm sufficiently accurate with this technique and I think I might add more practice as I just described to try to improve.

Or should I try something else?

[mattj]

I'm cross-dominant, shoot both eyes open. When I say my "weak" eye, I mean my right one, even though I'm a right handed shooter...

I've self analyzed carefully to discover the following -- to me it is just what I naturally do, and not weird and complicated like it sounds:

When I shoot, I shift the gun over so that the sights are aligned with my "good" (left) eye.

I actually see two targets and two sets of sights, but my brain 'filters out' the sight/target set from my weaker eye, so I'm able to 'focus' on the image coming from my strong eye (which is, clear front sight with the less in-focus target behind it).

It actually works pretty well for me -- the "double image" doesn't bother or distract me at all, and I don't get eye fatigue the way I would if I tried to close an eye.

I think it developed this way because the vision in my dominant eye is quite a bit better than in my weak eye (which has a degree of astigmatism).

My shooting glasses are actually prescription lenses (I don't normally wear corrective vision) -- so when I'm shooting with them, I sort of feel like I have super vision. Even though it corrects the poorer vision in my weak eye, I'm still able to do my "double vision" shooting without difficulty.

I know when I'm moving or transitioning between targets that my eyes actually snap back and forth between binocular and double vision (it's all very fast and subconscious) -- I'm only actually in double-vision mode when I'm actually "looking for" the sight picture.

If I am shooting a red dot sight or something, I focus on the target (with the dot superimposed) and there's no double vision or anything.

Anyway, I don't know if my apparently weird way of seeing while I am shooting would hold me back if I were really trying to be a top level competitor, but it certainly doesn't feel like the "bottleneck" in my game.

Anyway, I just thought I'd share in case it gives anybody insight into what their eyes are doing when they are shooting pistol. Interestingly when I shoot scoped rifle, I still shoot both eyes open and right handed, and my "weak" right eye has no problem doing what it is supposed to.

My point, if I have one, is that seeing two targets or sets of sights (two and two) doesn't necessarily matter as long as you're able to line up the gun with the target -- so I'd so go with whatever works best for how your eyes want to naturally operate.

[esskay]

MattJ -
thanks for your input.

Let me make sure I understand

Focus: Your focus on the front sight, so you have blurry rear sight, clear front sight, blurry target, right?

Double vision: you see two targets, two rear sights, and one front sight?

And you've trained yourself to ignore the second rear sight and the second target images?

Is that correct?

Maybe I can try harder to train myself to ignore two target images?

[mattj]

esskay -- that is correct. Honestly, I didn't really ever have to train myself to ignore the double image, it's kind of what naturally happened when I first learned the concept of shooting both eyes open.

I may very well be a freak of nature (my dominate eye having significantly better vision may have trained my brain just during every day life, or something) -- so I have no idea whether it can work that way for everybody or not.

[larry0071]

I'm cross eye dominant and always closed my right (weak) eye.

Last weekend I was playing with both eyes open and looking at the front sight. The problem I have is that the front sight is a single object but it also makes the slide appear as a letter V with the front sight at the point of the V and I get two rear sights floating left and right of the front sight. It freaked me out a bit. If I squint the right eye nearly closed, everything lines up straight.

I just began playing with the 2 eye open thing, so I'll need some time to see if I can get my eyes/brain to work correctly like this.

With a RDS I have no problem, as stated above... I look at the object (target) and the red dot floats onto it.

Interesting that some of us see things in an unusual way.