PDA

View Full Version : 2010 SHOT SHOW OPTICS REPORT - Ilya Koshkin & Scott Berish



9DivDoc
01-28-10, 16:38
Tactical Hunting Review - Ilya Koshkin (http://tacticalhuntingreview.com/2010/01/2010-shot-show-optics-report/)

Liberty Optics Shot Show 2010 Review (http://libertyoptics.blogspot.com/)

http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp90/ikoshkin/Sport_Optics/SHOT_2010/SHOT_2010-8.jpg

Looks like Vortex Sam... Vortex Paul... and Vortex Optics are going to have a very interesting year...

PPGMD
01-28-10, 17:12
I disagree with the Ilya on this:

I think the concept of a red dot as a primary rifle sight (i.e. Aimpoint, Eotech, etc) is dead for all practical purposes. It will linger on for a little bit longer, but these are the death thores of the concept. Low range variables are getting good enough at 1x to supplant the red dot sights while offering better versatility. The only red dot sights I expect to survive for quite a while longer are the miniature ones: Aimpoint Micros and Docter-style sights. They can be used to good effect on pistols and shotguns, as well as mounted on top/side of normal telescopic sights as secondary aiming instruments. Full size red dot sights, in my opinion, will see their market share dwindling. Even US Military that is traditionally slow to react to any remotely useful idea will end up dumping red dots in favor of 1-4x, 1-6x, 1-8x, etc at some point.

I disagree, unless you can make the variable optics lighter weight, there will always be a market for red dots IMO.

GlockWRX
01-28-10, 17:52
Or make them more forgiving of head position and eye relief. If I have to have a near perfect cheek weld every time, then a 1-4 or 1-8 variable will not be optimum for my use (personel defense within 150 yards). The typical RDS is very forgiving of head position and makes more sense in certain cases (supine, roll over prone, etc).

Jack-O
01-28-10, 21:30
For the record, Scott Berish is good people. Liberty optics is a great place to order from and scott will do whatever he can to get you fixed up. Seek him out.

On the red dot thing, I think Koshkin makes a valid arguement that needs to be addressed. If we can get a really bright red dot and 1x-8x magnification then why bother with an Aimpoint, they wouldnt be significantly faster.

Now the eotech is another matter..


In my experience the limiting factor in target aquisition for red dots is the length of the tube and diameter of the tube. With an Aimpoint it is ~3-4", a scope it would be 5-10", but with the EOtech, it is less than 1".

The tube is what you have to line up with the target before you can see the red dot. The larger the optic surface the faster it should be. Thus, something like the EOtech with it's larger surface area than the Aimpoint should provide the faster target aquisition.

Ideally a 40mm tube with a 40mm objective in a shorter 6-7" length with a bright red dot, 1x-10x, NV compatable, and light weight would be a great thing to have, and provide some great capabilities. the EOtech with it's large short screen should provide the speed some people seek. Now if they would make it available with a larger window, and get their battery life cranked up like the Aimpoint.

In review, Tube length is what limits faster speeds, so either reduce the tube length for more speed or give it some magnification for more range. It's be cool if they could do both.

PPGMD
01-29-10, 08:12
Umm have you actually run an Aimpoint? They are no slower then an Eotech.

The only thing better about the Eotech is the reticule. The 65MOA ring is slightly faster to pick up in unusual positions. But no fast enough to get over the short battery life.

IMO the window/tube size is an overblown issue, I went from the M4 to the Micro and I didn't notice any speed change. I can pick up an Eotech equipped rifle, too. The speed limitation is about the shooter then the optic between the two brands.

KevinB
01-29-10, 08:37
ANyone who did not get a chance to play with the new Leupold 1.1-8x CQBSS did themselves a disfavor.
34mm tube and a holographic dot, with Horus H27 reticle.
The dot will be very similar to the way the Eotech dot allows for generous head positioning.

It's going to be pricey, but for those who can afford it, or who's agencies or unit can afford it, it's going to revolutionize the field.

PPGMD
01-29-10, 09:34
ANyone who did not get a chance to play with the new Leupold 1.1-8x CQBSS did themselves a disfavor.
34mm tube and a holographic dot, with Horus H27 reticle.
The dot will be very similar to the way the Eotech dot allows for generous head positioning.

It's going to be pricey, but for those who can afford it, or who's agencies or unit can afford it, it's going to revolutionize the field.

Yeah that is one that I am eying. Can't wait to try it, but first need someone to buy one first.

Jack-O
01-29-10, 11:01
Umm have you actually run an Aimpoint? They are no slower then an Eotech.

The only thing better about the Eotech is the reticule. The 65MOA ring is slightly faster to pick up in unusual positions. But no fast enough to get over the short battery life.

IMO the window/tube size is an overblown issue, I went from the M4 to the Micro and I didn't notice any speed change. I can pick up an Eotech equipped rifle, too. The speed limitation is about the shooter then the optic between the two brands.


anything with a tube is going to be sensitive to head position. If you've spent much time running around in awkward positions and ambidextrous shooting then you'd be well aware of the issues of quickly picking up your dot or getting proper cheek weld. The EOtech design simply has more capability for a quicker dot aquisition.

I really do like the Aimpoint dont get me wrong. I'm speaking here in terms of theoretical and practical systemic advantages not in terms of quality or training issues.

FromMyColdDeadHand
01-31-10, 00:39
ANyone who did not get a chance to play with the new Leupold 1.1-8x CQBSS did themselves a disfavor.
34mm tube and a holographic dot, with Horus H27 reticle.
The dot will be very similar to the way the Eotech dot allows for generous head positioning.

It's going to be pricey, but for those who can afford it, or who's agencies or unit can afford it, it's going to revolutionize the field.

What are your thoughts on the 1-8 scopes from Leupold, Premier and S&B? (Did I miss any, Zeiss 1-6?). Did you have a chance to look at all three?

FPembleton
01-31-10, 14:25
ANyone who did not get a chance to play with the new Leupold 1.1-8x CQBSS did themselves a disfavor.
34mm tube and a holographic dot, with Horus H27 reticle.
The dot will be very similar to the way the Eotech dot allows for generous head positioning.

It's going to be pricey, but for those who can afford it, or who's agencies or unit can afford it, it's going to revolutionize the field.

In a lovely world where money is no object, the CQBSS and a SR-25 carbine would be fantastic.

grunz
01-31-10, 15:05
How much with the CQBSS cost?

PPGMD
02-01-10, 17:35
anything with a tube is going to be sensitive to head position. If you've spent much time running around in awkward positions and ambidextrous shooting then you'd be well aware of the issues of quickly picking up your dot or getting proper cheek weld. The EOtech design simply has more capability for a quicker dot aquisition.

I really do like the Aimpoint dont get me wrong. I'm speaking here in terms of theoretical and practical systemic advantages not in terms of quality or training issues.

My experience with the two sights, is that they both require your eye to be in the range where the aiming point is visible, the Eotech has a larger window, so it can be slightly easier, but it's not a huge enough difference to say that Aimpoint will die, and Eotech will survive. I think Red Dots and Holo Sights won't be going anywhere any time soon.

Dano5326
01-20-11, 01:24
1) this should not degenerate into a eotech vs aimpoint. PM your fanboyisms to eachother. Spattering ill-informed opins does us no good and takes the thread off course. Topic is new optics

2) Red dot sights are not going to be, or should be, displaced in the 0-300 fight. The training, individual capability, operational envelop, and logistical requirements for use of vari-powered optics preclude them for wide issuance to conventional forces.

3) Leupold, S&B, and Premier have 1-8 optics worth looking at. Each has pros & cons a savvy user will pick up quickly.

threeheadeddog
01-23-11, 10:25
wasnt this whole discussion in 2010?

9DivDoc
01-23-11, 11:06
wasnt this whole discussion in 2010?

The title "2010" Shot Show Optics Reports ...pretty much says it all

For a current optic report look in the "Shot Show 2011 Links" thread :)