Noob Question

[McBuck]

Hi all ! New to the board, so be gentle with me. I am infected with a slight case of EBR syndrome, and need a cure so I am about to make my first EBR purchase to make the addiction complete. I am not a new shooter, quite the contrary, in fact I have been shooting something since the age of 8; I am now 46. I have owned several Mini-14's, and was a faithful disciple through several inaccurate models and one extremely accurate 580 Series tactical Mini...the one with the 16.25"bbl. It was very accurate out to 50-75, even with a hot bbl, but at 100yds the accuracy seemed to fall off a bit. I sold it forthwith after my last range visit. I have been a closet M4 fan for some time, but I began my search for an M4 about a week ago. I have about $750 to invest into the cure for EBR syndrome and to be honest, I am looking for some advice; my needs are pretty simple, and my uses are straight forward. I have a military background and consequently, I have a soldiers knowledge of the platform, so I have some confidence in my knowledge of the weapon.Here is a basic run down of my intended purposes:

1) Probably will not shoot in any competetions...probably

2) Personal/HD.

3) Will punch a good bit of paper

4)Probably will hunt hogs with it, and maybe deer. ( I have more confidence in a well placed round than most other factors in a deer firearm)

If I had my druthers, I would be buying an M14 roght now, but I don't hav ethat kind of cash. I have $750. Period. No more no less. I found a great buy at CMMG, in the bargain Bin. I have researched some and found great reports on them regarding performance and accuracy. The flaws do seem to be all cosmetic, if any at all.
CMMG is using lowers from Double Star, DPMS, Armalite, as well as their own. The bbls I think are all CMMG, and are 16" M4 profiles, and are "nitride" ( ?)

I just need some advice from the people that do M4's. From the name of this place...I would guess you boys do M4's. But that is just a guess.:D

[Thomas M-4]

Welcome to M4C have you read the stickies in the technical section?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6642
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=24397

[LMT42]

Hello Buck,

Read the stickies posted above. Sounds like you've already answered your own question though. If you must have a rifle now and $750.00 is all you've got, buy the CMMG. The general consensus you'll get from M4 members is to save your money until you can afford a nicer rifle. Save another four hundred and buy a nice Colt, BCM or LMT. It'll be a wise investment as a nice rifle will hold its resale value - I have my doubts about a bargain bin CMMG. Do what you think is best for you though. Good luck.

[Linkpimp]

Building a Kiss Rifle from scratch is pretty easy.. Here is quick breakdown:

1. $119.00 Striper lower http://www.riflegear.com/p-681-jd-machine-ar15-stripped-lower-receiver.aspx
2. $70.00 lower parts kit http://www.riflegear.com/p-265-cmmg-lower-receiver-parts-kit.aspx
3. $75.00 buttstock kit http://www.riflegear.com/p-472-rock-river-arms-tactical-car-buttstock-kit.aspx
4. $465.00 complete Stag upper http://www.riflegear.com/p-48-stag-arms-model-3h.aspx

Total cost to build a KISS 223 Rifle is $729.00 + tax

But if your going to hunt then you will probably want an AR10 (308) right? As you can’t shoot a pig with a 223 it will just piss them off and I don't know, but I thought I read somewhere that 223 is not the ideal round for deer either??

Have you considered an m4 platform and using a 458 SCOM or Beowulf upper? These platforms were designed to stop anything within 200 yrds ? Ammo is going to be a bitch to find unless you reload..

Best of luck to you and welcome to the team..

Link

[bulbvivid]

I'm relatively new to the AR world as well, but I've been hanging around here long enough to know that most will tell you to save more money and get something worth that money.

For $250 more, you can get an LMT lower, 16" carbine upper, and bolt carrier group shipped from Rainier Arms. You would still need some type of sights, but there are plenty of used deals for quality sights. I'm using that as an example and I'm sure there are other deals for quality rifles in that range.

I started with a lower quality rifle along with its canted gas block, snaggletooth disconnector, and crap gas rings (not to mention that lack of staking and the loose castle nut). I could have fixed its problems and carried on, but I decided to cut my losses, save the money, and get something worth having.

I know you said $750 firm, but if you can, wait and save.

[Iraqgunz]

McBuck,

Consider the following. You can get a BCM 16" mid-length upper with BCG for 570.00. You can buy stripped lowers for around 125.00. At that point you are into it for about 700.00. Then all you need is a LPK, pistol grip, handguards, buffer tube and stock assembly. A BCM standard stock assembly will cost you 82.00. Pistol grip and handguards around 60.00. LPK Approx. 50.00. You will then have a quality carbine that has a good barrel and chamber and will allow you to get started with only having to add a few things down the road.

So the final cost is about 890.00. Ask yourself this. Can you not afford to spend the 890.00? Do you really need it now or could you wait 45-60 days?

Another thing to consider is that if your budget is stretched now in just purchasing the weapon. How will you feed and care for it?

[eternal24k]

Building a Kiss Rifle from scratch is pretty easy.. Here is quick breakdown:

1. $119.00 Striper lower http://www.riflegear.com/p-681-jd-machine-ar15-stripped-lower-receiver.aspx
2. $70.00 lower parts kit http://www.riflegear.com/p-265-cmmg-lower-receiver-parts-kit.aspx
3. $75.00 buttstock kit http://www.riflegear.com/p-472-rock-river-arms-tactical-car-buttstock-kit.aspx
4. $465.00 complete Stag upper http://www.riflegear.com/p-48-stag-arms-model-3h.aspx

Total cost to build a KISS 223 Rifle is $729.00 + tax

But if your going to hunt then you will probably want an AR10 (308) right? As you can’t shoot a pig with a 223 it will just piss them off and I don't know, but I thought I read somewhere that 223 is not the ideal round for deer either??

Have you considered an m4 platform and using a 458 SCOM or Beowulf upper? These platforms were designed to stop anything within 200 yrds ? Ammo is going to be a bitch to find unless you reload..

Best of luck to you and welcome to the team..

Link

interesting...
Is Rifle Gear in So-Cal?

lol

[Linkpimp]

interesting...
Is Rifle Gear in So-Cal?

lol

Yeah it’s only a few miles from my house :).. It’s the first sight I pulled up, the OP can do better by searching around and NO I don't work there or have this stuff, I was doing some research for a friend who is looking to build a KISS rifle..

The OP should really save up some more $$$, remember you get what you pay for.. But at the same time everybody needs to start somewhere and I’ll never fault anyone for that, times are tough and money is tight allover…

[Thomas M-4]

If I had a $750 budget I would either do what Iraqgunz suggested or look for a stag or s&w m&p 15 used at a local gun shop maybe I could do some haggling on the price.

[organdonor]

go with the cmmg. great bang for your buck. hopefully you'll receive a cmmg lower; if not, no big deal... a good upper is what matters most.

read more: http://forums.officer.com/showpost.php?p=1077670&postcount=10

[Thomas M-4]

go with the cmmg. great bang for your buck. hopefully you'll receive a cmmg lower; if not, no big deal... a good upper is what matters most.

read more: http://forums.officer.com/showpost.php?p=1077670&postcount=10

Is that the bargin bin ?

[organdonor]

Is that the bargin bin ?no. but to my knowledge, bargain bin rifles are designated as such because of blemishes in the finish. not because of any functional defects. so all of the goodies like m4 feed ramps, properly staked gas key, chrome lined chamber/bore, mil spec 4150 steel MP tested barrel should be there(i think they stake their castle nuts now also)... for $600 + s&h. add another $25 and they'll have someone hand-pick you the best of the worst.

edit, from their website: "All rifles are M4 upper receivers and consist of trade-ins, demos, scratched, dented, discolored, over-runs, special buys, uglies, etc. All rifles have been head spaced and test fired. Rifles are sold as-is with no returns." not sure how i feel about trade-ins or dented parts but other than that they claim mostly cosmetic reasons. i've only seen good things posted about cmmg's bargain bin rifes. most seem pleasantly surprised with what they get for the price. if i had the cash on hand i'd snap one up.

[SWATcop556]

Best advice out there. My experiences with CMMG have been lukewarm at best. Save a little more and get the BCM. You won't regret it.


McBuck,

Consider the following. You can get a BCM 16" mid-length upper with BCG for 570.00. You can buy stripped lowers for around 125.00. At that point you are into it for about 700.00. Then all you need is a LPK, pistol grip, handguards, buffer tube and stock assembly. A BCM standard stock assembly will cost you 82.00. Pistol grip and handguards around 60.00. LPK Approx. 50.00. You will then have a quality carbine that has a good barrel and chamber and will allow you to get started with only having to add a few things down the road.

So the final cost is about 890.00. Ask yourself this. Can you not afford to spend the 890.00? Do you really need it now or could you wait 45-60 days?

Another thing to consider is that if your budget is stretched now in just purchasing the weapon. How will you feed and care for it?

[Irish]

IG is spot on, look at his credentials ;)

I suggest taking a look at Rob's Chart and educating yourself about CMMG and the other options that have been mentioned http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA.

Best of luck.

[organdonor]

of course more money will get him a better rifle. but he said, "I have $750. Period."... he could do worse than a cmmg.

[Irish]

of course more money will get him a better rifle. but he said, "I have $750. Period."... he could do worse than a cmmg.

Then I suggest the OP save his milk money.

My comment is not intended to be disrespectful by the way. Don't go for instant gratification and wait a while until you have the money to invest in a proper weapon that will serve you and your family for years to come. Best, Irish

[organdonor]

Then I suggest the OP save his milk money.

My comment is not intended to be disrespectful by the way. Don't go for instant gratification and wait a while until you have the money to invest in a proper weapon that will serve you and your family for years to come. Best, Irishelitist :rolleyes: a cmmg will do him fine plinking and hunting.

[Irish]

elitist :rolleyes: a cmmg will do him fine plinking and hunting.

Only if by elitist you mean an intelligent, well read and educated person on the current subject matter who's offering good advice to someone starting down the road of owning their first AR.

This forum is not about bubba plinking, hunting, shooting worms and dirt. The primary reason most people are here is to be educated and discuss relevant matters concerning the defense of themselves, their loved ones or to benefit them in their careers where they are armed.

If you want to go "plinking" go buy a Ruger 10/22 and have a blast shooting cans out in the desert, it's lots of fun and a hell of alot cheaper! If you want grounded, solid advice from people who know what they're talking about then please stay and contribute to this forum.

Back on topic... read the Chart and the reasoning behind the different categories and you'll see the light.

[organdonor]

Only if by elitist you mean an intelligent, well read and educated person on the current subject matter who's offering good advice to someone starting down the road of owning their first AR.

This forum is not about bubba plinking, hunting, shooting worms and dirt. The primary reason most people are here is to be educated and discuss relevant matters concerning the defense of themselves, their loved ones or to benefit them in their careers where they are armed.

If you want to go "plinking" go buy a Ruger 10/22 and have a blast shooting cans out in the desert, it's lots of fun and a hell of alot cheaper! If you want grounded, solid advice from people who know what they're talking about then please stay and contribute to this forum.

Back on topic... read the Chart and the reasoning behind the different categories and you'll see the light.:rolleyes:

[SWATcop556]

elitist :rolleyes: a cmmg will do him fine plinking and hunting.

You won't last here if you hold that mindset.

A weapon is first a defensive, SHTF whatever you want to call it and anything else is secondary. You seem a little emotionally invest in CMMG and that's fine but check the shit attitude at the door when better, yes better, options are laid out.

[Iraqgunz]

Since you felt the need to chime in and label some of us "elitist" due to our choice here's some food for thought.

I went to their website and their so-called Milspec M4 upper is 625.00. So what exactly do you think you are getting in the bargain bin? Unless I knew exactly for sure I would be extremely leery. They also use a semi-autp BCG instead of a full auto BCG and their is no mention of it being HP/ MPI tested.

That would still require you to get a complete lower receiver that will cost at least 260.00 give or take. So we are now at the same price of what a Bravo Company upper will cost you. Bravo Company as we have seen consistently here on the boards sells quality stuff. Having met the owner last week at SHOT I am convinced that he will only sell quality stuff and he truly cares about the companies reputation.

Can you please explain why it would not be prudent for the OP to wait an additional 45-60 days to get the additional money? It's not like there is a ban going into effect tomorrow. I am almost willing to bet that most people could save that additional money.

Again, if the OP is going to be so close as to not being able to save that extra money, how is he going to get magazines, ammo and the other stuff needed to keep his carbine/ rifle running?


no. but to my knowledge, bargain bin rifles are designated as such because of blemishes in the finish. not because of any functional defects. so all of the goodies like m4 feed ramps, properly staked gas key, chrome lined chamber/bore, mil spec 4150 steel MP tested barrel should be there(i think they stake their castle nuts now also)... for $600 + s&h. add another $25 and they'll have someone hand-pick you the best of the worst.

edit, from their website: "All rifles are M4 upper receivers and consist of trade-ins, demos, scratched, dented, discolored, over-runs, special buys, uglies, etc. All rifles have been head spaced and test fired. Rifles are sold as-is with no returns." not sure how i feel about trade-ins or dented parts but other than that they claim mostly cosmetic reasons. i've only seen good things posted about cmmg's bargain bin rifes. most seem pleasantly surprised with what they get for the price. if i had the cash on hand i'd snap one up.

[Iraqgunz]

If you read the OP's post. His first concern was for self defense. That would mean that you would want the most reliable weapon that you can get. That being the case I would wait another 3 months if it was necessary to get the most reliable weapon that I could. Which we have already demonstrated it isn't.


elitist :rolleyes: a cmmg will do him fine plinking and hunting.

[Bantee]

100% agree, save the x-tra dimes & go with the BCM. My first jump into the AR world was a complete Cluster. Bought a DPMS AP-4 off a dealers recommendation.Not a wise purchase. Found this site and the chart Rob S. put together, and between it and the vast amount of knowledge the members here have and are willing to share, I now have a fully functioning carbine. Which btw now only has a DPMS upper & lower receiver.About a 1200.00 mistake all said and done. I have since with the use of this site, G&R Tactical, and BCM built another carbine that is twice the rifle and cost about $200 less! I can assure you from 1st hand experience, if these guys tell you something it is not because they're elitist, it's because they know their shit. Listen to them, read the chart, build your rig as finances allow and I guarantee you won't be disappointed. By the way welcome, and good luck with your build.:)

[organdonor]

You won't last here if you hold that mindset.

A weapon is first a defensive, SHTF whatever you want to call it and anything else is secondary. You seem a little emotionally invest in CMMG and that's fine but check the shit attitude at the door when better, yes better, options are laid out.wrong.

i'm not emotionally invested. i don't even own a cmmg; i own an lmt. the guy says he has $750. end of story. there are obviously better options than cmmg -- that cost more money. no hard feelings, anyone. just my two cents.

[Iraqgunz]

I am still waiting for your response. Like I said, if one looks at it rationally and not emotionally I can think of no reason why he must purchase now and not wait.


wrong.

i'm not emotionally invested. i don't even own a cmmg; i own an lmt. the guy says he has $750. end of story. there are obviously better options than cmmg -- that cost more money. no hard feelings, anyone. just my two cents.

[CaptainDooley]

wrong.

i'm not emotionally invested. i don't even own a cmmg; i own an lmt. the guy says he has $750. end of story. there are obviously better options than cmmg -- that cost more money. no hard feelings, anyone. just my two cents.

Nope, not wrong. You do know what forum you're on right?

[Jay Cunningham]

Hi all ! New to the board, so be gentle with me. I am infected with a slight case of EBR syndrome, and need a cure so I am about to make my first EBR purchase to make the addiction complete. I am not a new shooter, quite the contrary, in fact I have been shooting something since the age of 8; I am now 46. I have owned several Mini-14's, and was a faithful disciple through several inaccurate models and one extremely accurate 580 Series tactical Mini...the one with the 16.25"bbl. It was very accurate out to 50-75, even with a hot bbl, but at 100yds the accuracy seemed to fall off a bit. I sold it forthwith after my last range visit. I have been a closet M4 fan for some time, but I began my search for an M4 about a week ago. I have about $750 to invest into the cure for EBR syndrome and to be honest, I am looking for some advice; my needs are pretty simple, and my uses are straight forward. I have a military background and consequently, I have a soldiers knowledge of the platform, so I have some confidence in my knowledge of the weapon.Here is a basic run down of my intended purposes:

1) Probably will not shoot in any competetions...probably

2) Personal/HD.

3) Will punch a good bit of paper

4)Probably will hunt hogs with it, and maybe deer. ( I have more confidence in a well placed round than most other factors in a deer firearm)

If I had my druthers, I would be buying an M14 roght now, but I don't hav ethat kind of cash. I have $750. Period. No more no less. I found a great buy at CMMG, in the bargain Bin. I have researched some and found great reports on them regarding performance and accuracy. The flaws do seem to be all cosmetic, if any at all.
CMMG is using lowers from Double Star, DPMS, Armalite, as well as their own. The bbls I think are all CMMG, and are 16" M4 profiles, and are "nitride" ( ?)

I just need some advice from the people that do M4's. From the name of this place...I would guess you boys do M4's. But that is just a guess.:D

The part in blue changes the whole dynamic. I would have no problem recommending lower tier, cheaper AR if it was for reasons other than personal/HD. But when that factors in, no one in good conscience can recommend anything other than weapons from certain manufacturers.

[RogerinTPA]

wrong.

i'm not emotionally invested. i don't even own a cmmg; i own an lmt. the guy says he has $750. end of story. there are obviously better options than cmmg -- that cost more money. no hard feelings, anyone. just my two cents.

Absolutely not wrong.

Here, we consider our weapons as defensive/offensive weapons first. We don't shoot dirt here. Everyone of my rounds are for the pursuit of training in mastering my firearms, in a precision tactical sense. Most of us run our weapons hard and will not stake or bet on a substandard weapon, for our training, or our lives.

[Irish]

wrong.

i'm not emotionally invested. i don't even own a cmmg; i own an lmt. the guy says he has $750. end of story. there are obviously better options than cmmg -- that cost more money. no hard feelings, anyone. just my two cents.

This is the 2nd thread within your first 50 posts that you've recommended CMMG to someone.

[McBuck]

What exactly is so terribly wrong with CMMG that someone would not recommend them ? Have their products had any catastrophic failures ? Is their accuracy so bad that a man could not bring in a 2 MOA string ? Do they use an inferior steel that I could expect to be like the Oly Arms of the early 90's ?
I have heard nothing but good reports from others who have bought their products. They have been accurate, or at least I have been told of several people getting anywhere from 1-2 MOA strings. I have heard of no FTF's of any type. And I do believe they are staking their keys pretty good too.
As far as using a .223/5.56 for deer and or pigs...a good shot has no problem with pigs and a 5.56. I have killed several hogs using a Mini-14, and know quite a few people who use AR's for hogs on a regular basis.
I never meant to stir up a shit storm about who makes the best AR. Every one has their opinion about that, and those opinions are as varied as the manufacturers. I jusrt wanted to know if a CMMG would suit my needs, and allow me to upgrade parts as my budget allowed. It isn't as if I shoot 1200 rounds a month, it is more like 1200 rounds per year, if that many. I am a deer hunter, and probably put as many rounds through my .270 Win than any other weapon I own; a well placed round is priceless, regardless of the cost of the gun. My deer rifle is a Rem 700 CDL Leup VXII 3x9x50 and a 2.25lb custom trigger, and is a 1 MOA rifle, if I get this from a BB M4 then great, if not, then I will upgrade as I can..right ?

[Irish]

What exactly is so terribly wrong with CMMG that someone would not recommend them ? Have their products had any catastrophic failures ? Is their accuracy so bad that a man could not bring in a 2 MOA string ? Do they use an inferior steel that I could expect to be like the Oly Arms of the early 90's ?

I'm not trying to come off sounding like a dick but you did read the responses in this thread right? Did you go view the Chart and all the info that's on it? If you want an AR that goes bang when you pick it up and squeeze the trigger take the advice given, if you don't care buy an XYZ brand, it's up to you. Good luck.

[Thomas M-4]

Most of I believe came from the 2nd requirement you posted for HD most here believe [with good reason] that HD rifle should be built to the minimum TDP requirements it is the best way that you are assured of getting rifle that will preform and have the durability required to go through training classes and many years of hard use.

[snappy]

There is some good advice posted here so far by members who have seen many new AR owners come to the table with exactly the same hopes, needs and limitations as the op. Spend some time reading old posts and you'll also realize that these seasoned members have seen new AR owners go through the same experiences with cheap weapon systems again and again. There is a reason the op wisely came here to get advice. That advice should be heeded.

$750 is just a bit shy of a decent setup and will end up costing you way more than that decent setup as you throw $ at trying to trouble shoot problems. If you can't enjoy your rifle because it won't feed/extract/shoot consistently or whatever, then did you really get what your $750 is worth right now? Also consider what IG has asked: how is the cost of mags and ammo and sights etc. going to factor in to that $750 ceiling?

Prices have come down from what they were a year ago and there are alot more rifles in stock out there. Just a few hundred $ more will buy a quality setup that will work now and far into the future. It would be well worth the wait and the sacrifice to save up those few hundred $ more. If that just can't happen, I'd consider the AK platform instead. Best luck to the op and no hard feelings.

[organdonor]

Absolutely not wrong.

Here, we consider our weapons as defensive/offensive weapons first. We don't shoot dirt here. Everyone of my rounds are for the pursuit of training in mastering my firearms, in a precision tactical sense. Most of us run our weapons hard and will not stake or bet on a substandard weapon, for our training, or our lives.couldn't care less what you personally think. you are wrong. i will not pretend to know why the original poster has set a limit of &750. all i know is that he asked what he could get for that amount and i told him. YES THERE ARE BETTER OPTIONS but a cmmg will do him fine.

[Triton28]

if not, then I will upgrade as I can..right ?

You certainly can, but I believe what others are trying to say is that you can save money in the long run by delaying your purchase now and raising your budget a little bit. You would most likely spend more money in the long run upgrading, especially if your needs change or there is a problem with the CMMG. Like most other machines, you usually get what you pay for with AR's.

[McBuck]

Real world advice Snappy. Thank you. Taking your positives into consideration, and your understanding that $750 is a ceiling, why would you steer me to an AK instead of an AR ? They are without question a dependable weapon, and maintenance is no doubt simple for even the naive. What would you consider a reasonable price for a fair quality AK ?
I have had great luck with dependablility in my other firearms, most notably the Mini's I have owned; the Mini's are reliable almost to a fault, and my 580 Tactical I just sold was virtually bullet proof. It would eat anything I fed it, and went bang everytime I pulled the boom button. Not a super accurate gun, but I could get 3-4 ( with the peep sight) MOA at 100 yds without any mods...mags were just a little expensive at $25.00 a pop.
How does an AK compare in the accuracy department ? And are AK mags a little more reasonable ?
I just want a good shooter, that is :reliable, accurate, handles easily, ease of maintenance, has some afermarket availability, hence the desire for an AR. I don't have the time for a finicky firearm. Perhaps I should get another Mini 580 Tactical ? There was not real need for pampering it, and it was exceptionally reliable. I suppose you could call it a "minute of milk jug" rifle, but it was reasonably accurate.

[organdonor]

Real world advice Snappy. Thank you. Taking your positives into consideration, and your understanding that $750 is a ceiling, why would you steer me to an AK instead of an AR ? They are without question a dependable weapon, and maintenance is no doubt simple for even the naive. What would you consider a reasonable price for a fair quality AK ?
I have had great luck with dependablility in my other firearms, most notably the Mini's I have owned; the Mini's are reliable almost to a fault, and my 580 Tactical I just sold was virtually bullet proof. It would eat anything I fed it, and went bang everytime I pulled the boom button. Not a super accurate gun, but I could get 3-4 ( with the peep sight) MOA at 100 yds without any mods...mags were just a little expensive at $25.00 a pop.
How does an AK compare in the accuracy department ? And are AK mags a little more reasonable ?
I just want a good shooter, that is :reliable, accurate, handles easily, ease of maintenance, has some afermarket availability, hence the desire for an AR. I don't have the time for a finicky firearm. Perhaps I should get another Mini 580 Tactical ? There was not real need for pampering it, and it was exceptionally reliable. I suppose you could call it a "minute of milk jug" rifle, but it was reasonably accurate.you will be perfectly fine with a cmmg.

[Irish]

you will be perfectly fine with a cmmg.

You're out of your depth and in a completely different league than you're obviously accustomed to. Instead of making antagonistic remarks and replies to people's educated opinions why not take the time to go read some of the stickied threads and expand your knowledge base. You obviously want to help someone, and I can commend you for that, but you're sending them down the wrong path.

[SWATcop556]

wrong.

i'm not emotionally invested. i don't even own a cmmg; i own an lmt. the guy says he has $750. end of story. there are obviously better options than cmmg -- that cost more money. no hard feelings, anyone. just my two cents.

My recommendations were based off the OP's request for a Personal Defense AR as was stated in his original post.

For the CMMG price you get several things that BCM does not offer like an improperly threaded barrel, .223 chambers, a bolt the is not HP/MPI, incorrect extractor inserts just to name a few that I have seen in person. Sounds like a great savings of -$150. :rolleyes:

Just because a company writes it on their website does not mean it's true. Several members here have spent a lot of money fixing their bargain bin rifles from lower quality companies. I was just trying to keep the OP from being another one. If that makes me an elitist, then I happily accept the title.

[Thomas M-4]

Real world advice Snappy. Thank you. Taking your positives into consideration, and your understanding that $750 is a ceiling, why would you steer me to an AK instead of an AR ? They are without question a dependable weapon, and maintenance is no doubt simple for even the naive. What would you consider a reasonable price for a fair quality AK ?
I have had great luck with dependablility in my other firearms, most notably the Mini's I have owned; the Mini's are reliable almost to a fault, and my 580 Tactical I just sold was virtually bullet proof. It would eat anything I fed it, and went bang everytime I pulled the boom button. Not a super accurate gun, but I could get 3-4 ( with the peep sight) MOA at 100 yds without any mods...mags were just a little expensive at $25.00 a pop.
How does an AK compare in the accuracy department ? And are AK mags a little more reasonable ?
I just want a good shooter, that is :reliable, accurate, handles easily, ease of maintenance, has some afermarket availability, hence the desire for an AR. I don't have the time for a finicky firearm. Perhaps I should get another Mini 580 Tactical ? There was not real need for pampering it, and it was exceptionally reliable. I suppose you could call it a "minute of milk jug" rifle, but it was reasonably accurate.

Arsenal arms for AK'S and the SGL series from russia
http://www.k-var.com/shop/home.php?cat=350
You can get it in 5.56, 5.45 and 7.62.
Quality AK's with good ammo can be very accurate what holds them back are the short sight radius and blade sights.
Check out Templar's SLR106 post in the AK section best set up going right know IMO.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=16457

[organdonor]

You're out of your depth and in a completely different league than you're obviously accustomed to. Instead of making antagonistic remarks and replies to people's educated opinions why not take the time to go read some of the stickied threads and expand your knowledge base. You obviously want to help someone, and I can commend you for that, but you're sending them down the wrong path.you know more than i do because you're recommending he spend more than he stated he wanted to. makes sense :rolleyes:

[organdonor]

you are all so overly dramatic.

[CaptainDooley]

I'm starting to think you might be functionally illiterate. Have you read anything anyone you disagree with has actually posted, followed any of the links they gave or bothered to figure out whether or not they know what they're talking about? I've seen people as dense as you, but they're generally handing me my hamburgers or in an institution.

[organdonor]

more name calling.

[SWATcop556]

more name calling.

This is not going to end well. Hope you've enjoyed your stay here.

[organdonor]

This is not going to end well. Hope you've enjoyed your stay here.are you implying that i will be banned? what exactly have i done?

[Jay Cunningham]

Enough.

organdonor, your behavior is borderline trolling. Please check your PMs.