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Who is looked at as a notch or two above them straight from the factory? BCM? LMT?
Who is looked at as a notch or two above them straight from the factory? BCM? LMT?
lol... If you have any protective head gear around, I suggest you put it on immediately.
I've got my Stage Lvl3 bullet proof helmet on :D...
Who is looked at as a notch or two above them straight from the factory? BCM? LMT?
Colt not good enough for ya?
Who is looked at as a notch or two above them straight from the factory? BCM? LMT?
Look at the chart; Colt is in the first position. There is a reason for this. BCM and DD seems to have equaled Colts' quality/testing/assembly. I would not say anyone has surpassed them. There is a member here that is big on Colts and named off two or three processes that Colt does that no one else does. Maybe he'll chime in and remind us what they were, I can't remember for sure. I believe one item was a dry film lube applied (baked?) in the upper receiver. Seems like another item involved the RE (receiver extension) but again I'm not sure. If you are looking to buy a carbine I, personally, would consider any of those three (Colt, BCM, and DD) with Noveske and LMT also considered "Tier one" weapons. You could simply choose one of these based on the best price and you would still be confident to have gotten a high end, quality carbine.
Full disclosure, I've owned a LMT for about three years now and bought a Colt 6920 this past week. When I got the LMT I already had a BM in my possesion for about two years prior (to the LMT). When I first got the LMT I was a little surprised how much better it's quality was than the BM's. I soon sold the BM. I received the 6920 this past Monday and went to the range yesterday (Thursday). I was very surprised that the Colt 'seemed' so much better than my LMT. By better I mean it felt 'smoother' and seemed more accurate. I hope to get them both out to the range in the next month or so (weather and other reasons permitting) and try them side by side and post my findings. I've got a couple of ideas as to why but I want to get this comparison done first.
Again, my best advice would be to study the chart, search M4C and stay current on the posts. I think you will find any of the top 5 or so carbines on the chart to not be lacking in quality. Welcome and good luck.
HK maybe.
At this point......that is an unknown. Piston driven ARs are somewhat unpredictable at the moment compared to classic direct impingement and have the occasional design problems. H&K is probably the best overall manufacturer of firearms right now, but even they run into problems that need correcting.
It's gonna be really hard to find an AR better than a Colt. They follow the TDP(technical data package) which is a military specification format that's been refined for about 60 years now. At least when you buy a Colt, you know you can depend on it to be reliable, accurate, and tough as nails military rifle.
On a serious note, this is a relatively simple question to answer -- I just finished writing this same thing in another thread.
There are a few very minor things that Colt does so that they can use them as talking points in a pro-Colt argument, such as individually testing bolts rather than testing them in a batch. Other than those types of things, Noveske, for example is better.
Noveske has a Cold Hammer Forged barrel, which is substantially longer-lasting than one that is not, such as the Colt. Noveske barrels are chrome lined, this also increases the life of the barrel, Colt barrels are not. Noveske offers a lifetime warranty, Colt offers one year.
LMT
Noveske
LaRue
Knights Armament
Based on a number of criteria, those above and some others are, at the very least, on par with Colt, and exceed Colt in many respects. Personally, I'm looking into getting an LMT piston MRP.
To your first post, Marcus L: not the question being asked. but to answer your question, ya they are but there could be better ?
?>Ferrari. Ferrari not good enough? well no, it most likely is to most but some may prefer a lambo or the like. The like would be a Spyker, Koenigsegg CCXR, Pagani Zonda F or Cinque or R, Maserati MC12, Aston Martin One-77, Bugatti Veyron Pur Sang.....I could go on. My point is Ferrari or Lambo I suppose has created a name for themselves. Most people with money would grab a ferrari but would have enough $ to buy one of the others if they knew. That said there are companies out there who are smaller and are far less known, unless you know that area well, in this case AR's which surpass the "Well known" companies. General public may not know without doing research-most won't. I consider myself as "general public" when it comes to AR's-doing my research. I've always known that colt's are good because everyone knows about them. And YES they are good no question. My question is who is better? The smaller company that is better. The company well known in the forums but not behind the gun counter at Wal-Mart. Maybe there isn't one? Idk thats why im asking......
Noveske barrels are chrome lined, this also increases the life of the barrel, Colt barrels are not.
Colt barrels ARE chrome-lined.
On a serious note, this is a relatively simple question to answer -- I just finished writing this same thing in another thread.
There are a few very minor things that Colt does so that they can use them as talking points in a pro-Colt argument, such as individually testing bolts rather than testing them in a batch. Other than those types of things, Noveske, for example is better.
Noveske has a Cold Hammer Forged barrel, which is substantially longer-lasting than one that is not, such as the Colt. Noveske barrels are chrome lined, this also increases the life of the barrel, Colt barrels are not. Noveske offers a lifetime warranty, Colt offers one year.
LMT
Noveske
LaRue
Knights Armament
Based on a number of criteria, those above and some others are, at the very least, on par with Colt, and exceed Colt in many respects. Personally, I'm looking into getting an LMT piston MRP.
Uhhh......Colt chrome lines their bores and chamber.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&gid=5
Also, cold hammer forged barrels are cheaper to make versus button milled barrels. There is no measurable advantage to using a cold hammer forged barrel versus a quality button turned barrel. Once the molecular structure of the steel is uniform in the smelting process, the only way to improve its strength is through heat treatment. Forging only helps to mix up the alloys to make the steel more uniform in poorly smelted steel. This is why modern cutlery steels that are not forged are actually stronger and more elastic than most forged steels.
I was very surprised that the Colt 'seemed' so much better than my LMT. By better I mean it felt 'smoother' and seemed more accurate.
Smoothness is perception. Accuracy is measured.
I do not understand how any weapon can "seem" to be more accurate than another.
In the time that is took to write my last post many posts popped up! Ok guys thanks for the info. I do like Noveske for somereason? The name hehe and the fact they are made pretty locally. I think my next AR will be a Noveske with a new bolt or just maybe a bcg from bcm. Their barrels are nice no dought.
On a side note, what is the general on RR? Thats what I currently have, I plan on putting a bcm bcg in it along with have my castle nut staked. Doing those things how do think it should stand?
In the time that is took to write my last post many posts popped up! Ok guys thanks for the info. I do like Noveske for somereason? The name hehe and the fact they are made pretty locally. I think my next AR will be a Noveske with a new bolt or just maybe a bcg from bcm. Their barrels are nice no dought.
On a side note, what is the general on RR? Thats what I currently have, I plan on putting a bcm bcg in it along with have my castle nut staked. Doing those things how do think it should stand?
Start here:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&gid=5
The brands on the far left are what you want as they are proven specifications. Notice Colt is on the far left, as it is the standard by which all others are judged by.
looks like all you need to do with a noveske is put a bcm bcg in it and ur right there with the colt as far as the "chart" goes. I did list bcm as an option but no one seemed to perk on it?
organdonor
01-29-10, 20:41
Colt barrels ARE chrome-lined.
Uhhh......Colt chrome lines their bores and chamber.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&gid=5
Also, cold hammer forged barrels are cheaper to make versus button milled barrels. There is no measurable advantage to using a cold hammer forged barrel versus a quality button turned barrel. Once the molecular structure of the steel is uniform in the smelting process, the only way to improve its strength is through heat treatment. Forging only helps to mix up the alloys to make the steel more uniform in poorly smelted steel. This is why modern cutlery steels that are not forged are actually stronger and more elastic than most forged steels.noveske double chrome lines their barrels. maybe that's what he means
Smoothness is perception. Accuracy is measured.
I do not understand how any weapon can "seem" to be more accurate than another.
As I said, I have a couple of solid ideas as to what is going on here and when I get them both to the range side by side I will investigate further. Smoothness (for lack of a better term), I maybe should have said perceived recoil. Again I think I know why but I will compare them before going on.
I am not asking you to understand. When you use a machine (weapon, vehichle etc.) you will get to know how it works and feels. And it may be slightly different than another. Don't make this get ugly. Again, I've noticed some differences and will investigate further. I hope to post some pics, impressions and possible/probable reasons. Be patient.
wheres larue stand in all of this?
noveske double chrome lines their barrels. maybe that's what he means
More chrome means more barrel life(40k instead of 30k rounds maybe), but thicker chroming has the side effect of decreasing accuracy. That's why precision rifles are not chrome lined.
Everything is a trade-off. I still prefer military spec.
organdonor
01-29-10, 20:54
More chrome means more barrel life(40k instead of 30k rounds maybe), but thicker chroming has the side effect of decreasing accuracy. That's why precision rifles are not chrome lined.
Everything is a trade-off. I still prefer military spec.everything i've read here and there has indicated that noveske makes a pretty accurate barrel. i don't know if they double chrome line all of their barrels, though.
Smoothness...............Take any decent AR, shoot 1000 rounds of your choice of ammo, keep it well lubed , and it will be smooth. FWIW my Noveskes always felt very smooth out of the box, but they appear to be well lubed right out of the box.
I believe that between Colt, Noveske, DD, and LMT it does not matter. I'd add in BCM but can only comment on $1000.00's of parts as I've not yet purchased a complete rifle from them.
Larue? I believe thier uppers are second to none but was not aware of a complete weapon from them. I'd like to get a one as well.
wheres larue stand in all of this?
Just like H&K.......an expensive rifle that "might" be better, but even with extensive testing it might be hard to prove it. With the price you'd pay for it, you'd be able to get a Colt or BCM, an Aimpoint, a $300 stock, and at least 1000rds of ammo to practice with.
Beyond reciting mfg. processes and feature differences, I wonder whether anyone could quantitatively diffentiate between the quality levels for any of the Tier 1 weapons?
I'd say pick the one that has the features you most desire and be happy. :)
As I said, I have a couple of solid ideas as to what is going on here and when I get them both to the range side by side I will investigate further. Smoothness (for lack of a better term), I maybe should have said perceived recoil. Again I think I know why but I will compare them before going on.
I am not asking you to understand. When you use a machine (weapon, vehichle etc.) you will get to know how it works and feels. And it may be slightly different than another. Don't make this get ugly. Again, I've noticed some differences and will investigate further. I hope to post some pics, impressions and possible/probable reasons. Be patient.
Ok.
Nothing ugly. Just an observation. Carry on.
Army Chief
01-29-10, 22:05
everything i've read here and there has indicated that noveske makes a pretty accurate barrel. i don't know if they double chrome line all of their barrels, though.
They don't. They simply apply the chrome to machinegun TDP standards, which is to say, twice as thick as the TDP for a standard M4. While something like that would normally have an adverse effect on accuracy (however negligible), I've yet to hear of anyone who invested in a Noveske and didn't find it in the running for his most accurate AR.
AC
I have a couple of questions -
1. When it comes to BCGs, Bravo Company is listed among the best. How come their complete rifles aren't getting more recognition in this thread?
2. How do Noveske rifles command a two to three hundred dollar premium over Colts? Seems like something must set them apart other than cool roll marks.
^
Ur number one I am curious about too. I think they are in the category everyone is speaking of. Matter of fact I would put $ on it :D
Ur number two, who knows. I dont anyway, but for ME personally I would rather have a noveske just because its not a colt and put a bcm ionbond bcg in it and then imo have a better rifle. Again in my opinion.
I would rather have a noveske just because its not a colt and put a bcm ionbond bcg in it and then imo have a better rifle. Again in my opinion.
So the whole purpose of this thread was the hope that enough people would bash Colt and help your preconceived opinion that Colt is trash? :rolleyes: Just curious, why the dislike for Colt? Noveske is a good rifle too and if I wanted something other than Colt, I would go for that.........but the remark that "just because its not a colt" rings of clear ignorance if you are looking for a quality AR. You didn't even read any of the information stickies posted by the industry and prof. experts at the top of the AR General Discussion did you?
Nothing wrong with BCM. However, they have only been around since 2005, and with such a short life span they do not have a very long of a track record to judge the product as whole. Some buyers like the security of a long establisted company as it is likely to have a good support structure, it has learned many more manufacturering lessons over time, and it has the resources to compete on a larger scale and keep your investement at the top of the technology tree. According to ATF records, BCM has no record of selling any rifles in 2008...........Noveske only sold 770. Colt sold almost 21,000 rifles in 2008. It's easy to keep good quality controls if you make less than 1000 rifles a year. It speaks volumes if you can make just as good of a rifle and keep that level of quality while making over 20k rifles a year.
I wish colt had more options from the factory. Like a mid length mid weight hammer forged barrel or SS.
So the whole purpose of this thread was the hope that enough people would bash Colt and help your preconceived opinion that Colt is trash? :rolleyes: Just curious, why the dislike for Colt? Noveske is a good rifle too and if I wanted something other than Colt, I would go for that.........but the remark that "just because its not a colt" rings of clear ignorance if you are looking for a quality AR. You didn't even read any of the information stickies posted by the industry and prof. experts at the top of the AR General Discussion did you?
Nothing wrong with BCM. However, they have only been around since 2005, and with such a short life span they do not have a very long of a track record to judge the product as whole. Some buyers like the security of a long establisted company as it is likely to have a good support structure, it has learned many more manufacturering lessons over time, and it has the resources to compete on a larger scale and keep your investement at the top of the technology tree. According to ATF records, BCM has no record of selling any rifles in 2008...........Noveske only sold 770. Colt sold almost 21,000 rifles in 2008. It's easy to keep good quality controls if you make less than 1000 rifles a year. It speaks volumes if you can make just as good of a rifle and keep that level of quality while making over 20k rifles a year.
+1 Well said.
I tihnk the reason the ATF doesn't show any rifle sells for BCM in 08 is b/c I'm not sure they were offering complete rifles at that time...? Maybe just lowers and uppers seperate and I'm not sure if it's considered a rifle sale if it doesn't come complete with 11%tax and all?
Noveske probably sells alot of stripped lowers and I don't know if those are counted as "rifle" sales either.
I bet you BCM and Noveske sold a metric crap ton of complete uppers over the past year....:D Everytime you go to their respective websites there is some upper that is always out of stock.
http://www.knightarmco.com/images/sr15_2.html
Bit more expensive than the Colts - running in the $1800 - $2000 range, but has interesting features -
Would depend on your budget and ultimate use
More chrome means more barrel life(40k instead of 30k rounds maybe), but thicker chroming has the side effect of decreasing accuracy. That's why precision rifles are not chrome lined.
Everything is a trade-off. I still prefer military spec.
Why would a thicker chrome lining reduce accuracy than a thin chrome lining ?After all, the barrel tolerances are the same for the bullet to travel down. The same amount of chrome surface area touches the bullet no mattter how thick the lining is.
Do you have proof of this?
Why would a thicker chrome lining reduce accuracy than a thin chrome lining ?After all, the barrel tolerances are the same for the bullet to travel down. The same amount of chrome surface area touches the bullet no mattter how thick the lining is.
Do you have proof of this?
Basically, you are adding a variable with the chrome lining. Let's say the nekid bbl is perfect in every aspect of the drilling / rifling process. Adding chrome will create some high and low areas. In an AR, this May be enough to see on paper...maybe not. This is why precision rifles use match stainless bbls. If chrome could be added for bbl life w/out causing minor accuracy drops, the benchrest boys would be all over it as they would REALLY want to prolong the life of that hummer bbl.
The benefits of chrome for a battle gun far outweigh what little accuracy drop you may see at the range.
http://www.knightarmco.com/images/sr15_2.html
Bit more expensive than the Colts - running in the $1800 - $2000 range, but has interesting features -
Would depend on your budget and ultimate use
I was thinking about a KAC SR-15 for myself and wondered why they aren't on the chart?
Curious how they stack up?
I guess its a Midlength not M4...
Army Chief
01-30-10, 10:54
How do Noveske rifles command a two to three hundred dollar premium over Colts? Seems like something must set them apart other than cool roll marks.
Noveskes are low-rate production rifles, so there is definitely a bench-time and QC component to all of this, but what really sets a Noveske apart is the barrel. John Noveske got his start in the barrel business, and producing a best-in-class tube is still a major area of emphasis for him; as such, you're effectively paying a premium price for a premium barrel. Factor in the economy-of-scale implications mentioned above, and it is relatively easy to see why there might be a price difference.
AC
My experience is fairly negligible compared to the pros on this board, but in my experience shooting AR's since 1988 is that Colt rifles are the standard to judge other rifles by, and just work, straight out of the box. The latest example of this for me was during my last carbine class, in which I used a new stock 6920 that I had fired maybe 60 rounds max just to get a rough zero at the range, and used it in a class where I shot around 7-800 rounds and the gun worked perfectly essentially out of the box (I did clean it and lube it properly before hand of course).
My question is regarding Colt carbines. Since mid length gas systems are generally considered the best for a 16" barrel why doesn't Colt make this? I assume that the carbine gas length system is best suited for the M4 with its 14.5" barrel, and Colt can't be bothered to make a mid length system for the plethora of civilian and LEO's out there that use 16" rifles? Or can one make the argument that a carbine length gas system, although harder on the parts, can make for a more reliable weapon during operation in a more extreme environment, when the weapon is excessively fouled and dirty, due to the stronger gas impulse?
Another way to ask this I guess is, is there any reason whatsoever why one would actually prefer a carbine length gas system on a 16" barrel?
organdonor
01-30-10, 11:45
So the whole purpose of this thread was the hope that enough people would bash Colt and help your preconceived opinion that Colt is trash? :rolleyes: Just curious, why the dislike for Colt? Noveske is a good rifle too and if I wanted something other than Colt, I would go for that.........but the remark that "just because its not a colt" rings of clear ignorance if you are looking for a quality AR. You didn't even read any of the information stickies posted by the industry and prof. experts at the top of the AR General Discussion did you?
Nothing wrong with BCM. However, they have only been around since 2005, and with such a short life span they do not have a very long of a track record to judge the product as whole. Some buyers like the security of a long establisted company as it is likely to have a good support structure, it has learned many more manufacturering lessons over time, and it has the resources to compete on a larger scale and keep your investement at the top of the technology tree. According to ATF records, BCM has no record of selling any rifles in 2008...........Noveske only sold 770. Colt sold almost 21,000 rifles in 2008. It's easy to keep good quality controls if you make less than 1000 rifles a year. It speaks volumes if you can make just as good of a rifle and keep that level of quality while making over 20k rifles a year.take it easy, champ. he didn't call Colt trash anywhere in the post. heaven forbid someone want a rifle other than a colt. quit being so dramatic.
take it easy, champ. he didn't call Colt trash anywhere in the post. heaven forbid someone want a rifle other than a colt. quit being so dramatic.
Maybe not, but when he says "I'll take a *blank* just because it isn't a Colt" and mix-matching non Colt parts makes a rifle better than a Colt........I take it that he believes that a Colt rifle is a piece of crap.
I'm just asking why he thinks that a Colt isn't a top tier AR rifle. A simple, and logical question to ask. It's a question of interest because almost all of the expert opinions from industry professionals, trainers, instructors, and experienced operators on this forum would call a Colt probably the best choice for someone wanting a top of the line AR with a proven track record.
organdonor
01-30-10, 12:11
Maybe not, but when he says "I'll take a *blank* just because it isn't a Colt" and mix-matching non Colt parts makes a rifle better than a Colt........I take it that he believes that a Colt rifle is a piece of crap.
I'm just asking why he thinks that a Colt isn't a top tier AR rifle. A simple, and logical question to ask. It's a question of interest because almost all of the expert opinions from industry professionals, trainers, instructors, and experienced operators on this forum would call a Colt probably the best choice for someone wanting a top of the line AR with a proven track record.it would be stupid of him to claim that Colt isn't top of the line. I don't think that's what he's implying. I'm just saying there's no reason to jump to conclusions or to be so harsh.
Maybe not, but when he says "I'll take a *blank* just because it isn't a Colt" and mix-matching non Colt parts makes a rifle better than a Colt........I take it that he believes that a Colt rifle is a piece of crap.
He may just be tired of hearing the time honored Colt fanboy maxim: If it's not a Colt, it's a copy.
As much as I respect the heritage, think the rampant pony rollmark is pretty cool, and hear a lot of respected people tell me they're gtg, I sort of feel the same way.
If I have five weapons of equal quality lined up against the wall and can pick any, I'm probably gonna pick the one that isn't a Colt. M4's, 1911's, revolvers... doesn't matter. There are a TON of little ninnys all over the internet that pick a Colt for the rollmark and reputation and no other reason. These are the ones that usually scream the loudest when asked to give opinions on different manufacturers, and usually use some form of the above line as a reason to choose a Colt.
Gets old after a while. But then again, maybe I'm letting those morons keep me from buying a superior weapon... who knows.
*EDIT*
This is probably the same reason why I hate the Yankees. :)
Marcus: Umm I never called Colt crap. and for you to assume that just becasue I don't want one and I want to "add" parts is funny-never assume. Triton is kind of reading my mind, organ donor seems to get it also. For the record Colts are great, below is why I would get different.
For me I have a RR as previously stated. My dad has a Colt that I have shot with quite a bit. People I meet IN PERSON who have Colts don't know why they have them other than "their the first" So when I ask why Colt over lets say RR, Stag, or whoever they carry no real argument. Their uneducated people who happen to buy a good rifle based off of name, they lucked out. Some "name brands" suck, in general not AR related.
Because of this if I got a Colt and these people I run into now and then see that I have one they will give me crap and say "see I told ya so" but wouldn't understand why. Therefore, FOR ME I would rather have another brand that is just as good with one other off brand part in it or ARGUABLY better than Colt. Also, if I did have a Colt I would most likely put a bcm ionbond bcg in it. Don't ask why I just like them :)
I am always the fan of the smaller guys. I don't know why, I just am. So for ME again I would rather spend a few hundred more and get a Noveske. TO ME it would feel more special. And 99% of the people I run into would most likely think it doesnt even stand up to Colt. And I could sit there and chuckle. I wouldt argue with them, I could care less. But you see what I am saying? Oh ya Noveske is also made relatively close to me....
A good example of what I am trying to accomplish is explained in my post about cars. That post may not make sense to you guys but I'm hoping some of you guys get it, at least somewhat.
Thanks for helping guys.
Marcus you are speaking your mind which is fine I can expect that here. You have helped out also. And I DO appreciate it. Thanks.
He may just be tired of hearing the time honored Colt fanboy maxim: If it's not a Colt, it's a copy.
*EDIT*
This is probably the same reason why I hate the Yankees. :)
What? I love the Yankees.:D
Joking aside, there are about 5-6 manufactors making top shelf carbines right now and one should be well served with any of them. To me, the logical thing would be to choose based on your needs/desires for certain offerings (mid-length etc) or best available price. I was totally set to get a BCM until I found a 6920 for $1099, so I went with Colt. Sometimes it is easy to get drawn into hating/loving a certain brand (Colt?) but you would probably better serve youself to look at quality or quality/price value. To me it makes no sense to bash a brand based on preconcived notions, as I've gotten older I've nearly gotten completely away this mentality. I used to hate Fords (I'll duck now:eek:) but currently own two of them. I find myself no longer hating certain brands but rather looking/buying based on quality and service provided. As high as BCM and DD rank I probably would have went with one of these if I had found the best price on one. But at the mentioned price above I was very happy to go with a Colt. If you want a certain item (Ford/Colt etc) and are willing to pay a slightly higher price for it, then there is nothing wrong with this either. It is your choice. If you find that desired item at a lower price then all the better. Now if one were to push DPMS/Oly as being as good as a Colt/BCM etc then that would certainly make no sense. Not that DPMS/Oly's are useless, they can serve certain types of shooters well, but just understand not everything is built to the same quality standards. But with 5-6 well made carbines available just make your pick and be happy, you will have a quality weapon.
If I have five weapons of equal quality lined up against the wall and can pick any, I'm probably gonna pick the one that isn't a Colt
This is probably the same reason why I hate the Yankees. :)
FWIW your post is just as lame as the people who scream Colt the loudest because of the pony on the side. If you have 5 weapons of equal quality lined up against a wall.. you should pick the one that you can grab first. Who cares who manufactered it as long as its reliable and accurate.
P.S. The above has absolutely nothing to do with why I love the Yankees. Congrats on #27!!! Hope we get #28 next year :)
RancidSumo
01-30-10, 15:28
Because of this if I got a Colt and these people I run into now and then see that I have one they will give me crap and say "see I told ya so" but wouldn't understand why. Therefore, FOR ME I would rather have another brand that is just as good with one other off brand part in it or ARGUABLY better than Colt. Also, if I did have a Colt I would most likely put a bcm ionbond bcg in it. Don't ask why I just like them :)
Lol, the irony here is great.
Marcus: Umm I never called Colt crap. and for you to assume that just becasue I don't want one and I want to "add" parts is funny-never assume. Triton is kind of reading my mind, organ donor seems to get it also. For the record Colts are great, below is why I would get different.
For me I have a RR as previously stated. My dad has a Colt that I have shot with quite a bit. People I meet IN PERSON who have Colts don't know why they have them other than "their the first" So when I ask why Colt over lets say RR, Stag, or whoever they carry no real argument. Their uneducated people who happen to buy a good rifle based off of name, they lucked out. Some "name brands" suck, in general not AR related.
Because of this if I got a Colt and these people I run into now and then see that I have one they will give me crap and say "see I told ya so" but wouldn't understand why. Therefore, FOR ME I would rather have another brand that is just as good with one other off brand part in it or ARGUABLY better than Colt. Also, if I did have a Colt I would most likely put a bcm ionbond bcg in it. Don't ask why I just like them :)
I am always the fan of the smaller guys. I don't know why, I just am. So for ME again I would rather spend a few hundred more and get a Noveske. TO ME it would feel more special. And 99% of the people I run into would most likely think it doesnt even stand up to Colt. And I could sit there and chuckle. I wouldt argue with them, I could care less. But you see what I am saying? Oh ya Noveske is also made relatively close to me....
A good example of what I am trying to accomplish is explained in my post about cars. That post may not make sense to you guys but I'm hoping some of you guys get it, at least somewhat.
Thanks for helping guys.
Marcus you are speaking your mind which is fine I can expect that here. You have helped out also. And I DO appreciate it. Thanks.
Okay I see now. Sounds like you might want a Noveske then ;)
FWIW your post is just as lame as the people who scream Colt the loudest because of the pony on the side. If you have 5 weapons of equal quality lined up against a wall.. you should pick the one that you can grab first. Who cares who manufactered it as long as its reliable and accurate.
P.S. The above has absolutely nothing to do with why I love the Yankees. Congrats on #27!!! Hope we get #28 next year :)
Not quite.
I wouldn't pass on a Colt just because it's a Colt. I would, however, pass on a Colt if I had other options availible that were of equal quality.
Defend them all you want, but if you've spent anytime browsing internet forums, or even your local gunshop, you know exactly what I'm talking about. It's not Colt's fault, but it is what it is. Call it the pitfalls of success if you want. I try not to be a fanboy and for that reason I resent others who may have got it right, despite their lack of knowledge as to why they got it right.
And I think your calling me lame has everything to do with your Yankee love. Fanboy. :p
ForTehNguyen
01-30-10, 22:00
BCM, high quality, no BS overpricing like other companies
My experience is fairly negligible compared to the pros on this board, but in my experience shooting AR's since 1988 is that Colt rifles are the standard to judge other rifles by, and just work, straight out of the box. The latest example of this for me was during my last carbine class, in which I used a new stock 6920 that I had fired maybe 60 rounds max just to get a rough zero at the range, and used it in a class where I shot around 7-800 rounds and the gun worked perfectly essentially out of the box (I did clean it and lube it properly before hand of course).
My question is regarding Colt carbines. Since mid length gas systems are generally considered the best for a 16" barrel why doesn't Colt make this? I assume that the carbine gas length system is best suited for the M4 with its 14.5" barrel, and Colt can't be bothered to make a mid length system for the plethora of civilian and LEO's out there that use 16" rifles? Or can one make the argument that a carbine length gas system, although harder on the parts, can make for a more reliable weapon during operation in a more extreme environment, when the weapon is excessively fouled and dirty, due to the stronger gas impulse?
Another way to ask this I guess is, is there any reason whatsoever why one would actually prefer a carbine length gas system on a 16" barrel?
I have often wondered this myself... obviously the carbine length gas system combined with a 16 inch bbl has its downsides, but are there any upsides with the increased pressure such as greater reliability with a fouled weapon or underpowered ammo?
I have often wondered this myself... obviously the carbine length gas system combined with a 16 inch bbl has its downsides, but are there any upsides with the increased pressure such as greater reliability with a fouled weapon or underpowered ammo?
The carbine length gas system does indeed help with reliability. Keep in mind, the carbine length gas system was not designed for the M4, it was designed originally for the 10.5" commando models. I've worked at two locations in which certain duty ammo did not reliably cycle in full length A2s during qualifications. One was just outside Las Vegas, and the other was on Mt. Rainier. True, some of our officers did not do as good of a job of cleaning as others, but several of our guys that carried M4s were less than stellar with their cleaning and their rifles never missed a beat. Sure the extra pressure might beat up on parts more, but personally I'd rather have the confidence of additional reliability.
The Russians designed both the AK-47 and AK-74 with a large gas port to reliably cycle a wide varieity of ammo specs. Sometimes they can spit brass at dangerous velocities......but it keeps the rifle running.
So the whole purpose of this thread was the hope that enough people would bash Colt and help your preconceived opinion that Colt is trash? :rolleyes: Just curious, why the dislike for Colt? Noveske is a good rifle too and if I wanted something other than Colt, I would go for that.........but the remark that "just because its not a colt" rings of clear ignorance if you are looking for a quality AR. You didn't even read any of the information stickies posted by the industry and prof. experts at the top of the AR General Discussion did you?
Nothing wrong with BCM. However, they have only been around since 2005, and with such a short life span they do not have a very long of a track record to judge the product as whole. Some buyers like the security of a long establisted company as it is likely to have a good support structure, it has learned many more manufacturering lessons over time, and it has the resources to compete on a larger scale and keep your investement at the top of the technology tree. According to ATF records, BCM has no record of selling any rifles in 2008...........Noveske only sold 770. Colt sold almost 21,000 rifles in 2008. It's easy to keep good quality controls if you make less than 1000 rifles a year. It speaks volumes if you can make just as good of a rifle and keep that level of quality while making over 20k rifles a year.
Facts, gotta love em'!
BCM, high quality, no BS overpricing like other companies
There is a reason that generic products cost less...
:eek:
The carbine length gas system does indeed help with reliability. Keep in mind, the carbine length gas system was not designed for the M4, it was designed originally for the 10.5" commando models. I've worked at two locations in which certain duty ammo did not reliably cycle in full length A2s during qualifications. One was just outside Las Vegas, and the other was on Mt. Rainier. True, some of our officers did not do as good of a job of cleaning as others, but several of our guys that carried M4s were less than stellar with their cleaning and their rifles never missed a beat. Sure the extra pressure might beat up on parts more, but personally I'd rather have the confidence of additional reliability.
The Russians designed both the AK-47 and AK-74 with a large gas port to reliably cycle a wide varieity of ammo specs. Sometimes they can spit brass at dangerous velocities......but it keeps the rifle running.
Thanks for the very interesting response.
I am also inferring that you are a fan of Colt keeping the Carbine length gas system and not going to a mid length, is this correct?
Will the new Colt Tactical division even offer any mid length guns?
Thanks for the very interesting response.
I am also inferring that you are a fan of Colt keeping the Carbine length gas system and not going to a mid length, is this correct?
Will the new Colt Tactical division even offer any mid length guns?
I'm not an expert, but pretty much all of Colt's civilian and LE product line uses the carbine length gas system from 11.5"-16" barrels. I'm sure that if Colt's engineers thought it was a problem, it would have been addressed by now. They have a LONG collective of experience with the M16 design. I would rather then keep the rifle reliable under a wide range of conditions.........if that means keeping the carbine gas system? *shrugs*
I'm sure that Colt may offer some midlength gas systems if there is a civilian market for it. I think a better solution would be to offer an adjustable gas system and just keep the carbine length forend short to keep the balance right and the weight down.
Basically, you are adding a variable with the chrome lining. Let's say the nekid bbl is perfect in every aspect of the drilling / rifling process. Adding chrome will create some high and low areas. In an AR, this May be enough to see on paper...maybe not. This is why precision rifles use match stainless bbls. If chrome could be added for bbl life w/out causing minor accuracy drops, the benchrest boys would be all over it as they would REALLY want to prolong the life of that hummer bbl.
The benefits of chrome for a battle gun far outweigh what little accuracy drop you may see at the range.
My point was not to compare non chrome with chrome. I know accuracy improves without chrome and even more with stainless bbl.
I was comparing normal chrome lined barrels that COLT used versus the Noveske M249 chrome lining thickness in reply to the original statement. A thicker chrome lining than a regular COLT bbl, in my mind, would not cause any difference in accuaracy... I would bet the bank on that!
ztf HITMAN
01-31-10, 19:33
I have a couple of questions -
1. When it comes to BCGs, Bravo Company is listed among the best. How come their complete rifles aren't getting more recognition in this thread?
2. How do Noveske rifles command a two to three hundred dollar premium over Colts? Seems like something must set them apart other than cool roll marks.
I went with BCM because all the specs matched up to Colt, only Colt doesn't offer a lifetime warranty. Secondly, when I read about a particular BCM Middy being run 26,000 rds or so without cleaning, I was sold. Here's the link: http://www.03designgroup.com/reviews/bcm-complete-ar15-upper-and-lower-receivers
I don't believe in bashing any carbine/rifle. Especially any of the top tier ones. I would trust my life to any well maintained top tier carbine/rifle. If you're proud to represent your 'Brand', do so without trashing others. Those of us educated enough on AR quality should pass our knowledge on to those seeking knowledge. Yeah...Guess what?? My first carbine was a BM....Through asking questions and learning, I have become able to make more informed decisions...Alot of people resent Colt 'Fanboys' only because their unflinching perception of superiority over anything else. Colts are top notch, but not the only option as far as quality goes these days.
CAInstructorTx
02-07-10, 18:06
Very interesting thread, lots of opinions, which is good, so I guess I'll throw mine in as well.
Couple of things, first off, this whole "comparison chart" thing. While I think it's a good idea, and stacks features side by side, I think too many people use it as a buyers catalogue instead of a reference. Not everyone has the same budgets, requirements, or intended uses, so to buy a rifle simply because it's higher on the list could potentially be counterproductive to some, who might think, "well, this one appears to be the best, but I don't have the clams, so I'll just hold off." There are good riles out there, and everyone has to start somewhere. You can't always start out in a Ferrari or Porsche, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Sure the 6920 is a great gun, or benchmark as I've heard, and I own one as well. Does that mean I won't own anything else? Certainly not, if I can get a good deal on a rile that'll shoot when I pull the trigger, and provide unfailing reliability, (provided I do my part) then I'm not too concerned with what's rollmarked on the side.
2. I have firing many many thousands of rounds through military M4 carbines, M16s, A1s and A2s, and one thing stood out when I put my first hundred through my 6920. The "perceived recoil" to me was less than I remember with the others. Might just be me, might not, who knows, but there's no way to tell for sure I guess.I also can't comment on the accuracy just yet, still working on that, (mounted new optics, headed to the range this weekend). And on the subject of the gun being battered by the carbine gas system and 16" barrel? I'd wager the average shooter won't fire enough rounds to prove this either way (duty weapons or comp guns is another story, or of course the weekend-warrior/zombie hunter, to which I may or may not be.....no comment). I don't foresee any problems with mine though, and don't believe there's any reason for me, or any others to worry.
and 3. Everyone has there opinions as to what's "needed" on a rifle, but there really isn't a quantifiable and undeniable "list" of these features. There is only, what this person, or that person needs. Not everyone needs the same thing, and in the end, more should go into buying a rifle or carbine, or what have you, than where a rifle sits on a chart. Range time, budget, uses, and a slew of other facts should fall in there somewhere as well.
side note: this is intended as MY opinion, and nothing more. Sorry to ruffle feathers if I did, and I tried to stay away from making this a "well if cost was no option" matter. Thanks.
it sounds to me like the Op is a perfect candidate for a Noveske. :p
welcome to the fold, you'll never be the same again :D
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