View Full Version : Carbine or midlength handguards?
I picked up a Stag srandard carbine last January with intentions of decking it out. A year later, it is still all factory. I figure the first thing I should do is upgrade the handguards and get flip up iron sights then upgrade to better optics when I have the money. The only problem is I can't make a decision. I'm a college student so money IS an issue. I'm debating between getting carbine length handguards or get a low profile gas block and get mid length. I really like KAC handguards but they unfortunately do not come in med length. I'm self admittedly a beginner when it comes to ARs so be aware. If your vote comes down to ascetics, so be it. I also don't need the top of the like stuff. I have read how free float handguards are most solid, but for my purposes I don't think it will matter, any optics will end up on the upper. Just wanted to get some input which can maybe put sway a decision and get the ball rolling so my AR isn't bone stock anymore.
smokey0118
01-31-10, 22:18
midlength would give you more room to mount goodies and allow you to get a better extension on your support side. it would be really badass if you got a spectre gas block and got a standard rifle-length handguard. I recently put a YHM diamond series mid-length handguard on my DTI middy/tactical innovations bdx lower build. i'm very impressed with the fit and finish and size of the barrell lug. it's also nice to have basically one solid rail up top to move optics around. i'm considering getting the uper milled to truly have one continous rail up top. the only gripe is that it's a little bulk and screams out for ladder rails to hold comfortably. Daniel Defense could be another good company to go for but they're a big boost in price. for the money YHM is hard to beat. look into a spectre gas block and full-length rail system...they're the bees knees nowadays.
if you decide to replace your fsb with a specter fsb to mount a longer FF rail system, keep in mind there's minor tear-down and build-up required. you'll need a ar armorers tool and a vice-block at a minimum. Depending on your fsb you may need to tap out some pins to remove it, then pull the gas tube then remove your old barrell nut and replace it with the nut that comes with the ff handguard being sure to torque it between 30-90 ft/lbs and line up the gas tube holes. you'll have to put the low-pro fsb on with gas-tube lined up and then screw on the ff tube and torque down the locknut being sure you don't move the barrell nut and put pressure on the gas tube. then there's the aesthetic endcap nut you can get for the yhm stuff to make it look purdy and keep stuff out from inside the tube. there's other steps in there but that's the basics you'll have to be comfortable with to put a midlength or longer handguard on....unless you just take it to a local shop and have them slap it on for you. another route would be the DD omega rails that use your existing barrel nut and are a clamp-on floating handguard option. some folks say they loosen up with use though and arent as sturdy as a true free floating rail complete with larger barrell nut. Also you'd have to replace the fsb anyway so may as well yank the barrell nut and go the right way while you're at it.
http://www.yhm.net/store/gas_blocks.html
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SWATcop556
01-31-10, 22:21
If you have a carbine length gass system and a standard FSB then you can only use carbine length handguards unless you get a FF rail with a lo pro gas block or cut down your FSB. That is unless you go with the DD 12.0 with the FSB cutout.
If you're set on getting railed handguards, then I really can't help because I have no experience with them. However, since money is an issue, if you're open to other handguard options, then I do have some experience. I have Magpul MOE carbine length handguards on my 10.3" SBR, regular M4 handguards on my Stag M4, and untapered midlength handguards on my Armalite heavy barrel 16". I like all of these, so I don't think you'll go wrong with any of them. But, the Magpul MOE's are my favorite. They just feel the best in my hand. They're only $30 from aimsurplus.com. Since you're on the lower end of the experience spectrum like me, I'd recommend keeping it simple and inexpensive. When you have more experience (and money), what you need will be more obvious to you.
I really like KAC handguards but they unfortunately do not come in med length.
KAC can be had in rifle length that will go over low-profile gas block but it will be long and won't bode well with this...
I'm a college student so money IS an issue.
...as KAC's are the most expenisve rails.
If you're decking your AR out for CDI factor, then I have no constructive advice.
If you are looking for functional aspects, then you need to know which one accomodates your needs and preferences - which implies you have to have preferences as to where to place your support hand, sling attachments, weapon light etc. So, with that in mind...
I figure the first thing I should do is upgrade the handguards and get flip up iron sights then upgrade to better optics when I have the money.
...the first thing you should do is take 2-3 classes to understand what you want from your rifle. Once you figure that out, you won't be needing anybody's advice in regards of your rifle set-up.
P.S. Beyond training, the first available money should really go towards quality optic rather than handguard.
If you have a carbine length gass system and a standard FSB then you can only use carbine length handguards unless you get a FF rail with a lo pro gas block or cut down your FSB. That is unless you go with the DD 12.0 with the FSB cutout.
I suppose I would have to get a free float system if I went the midlength route.. And I would get a low profile gas block.
My vote goes to the midlength but that's because it fits my shooting style. Gives me room to mount my light up front on the left (Selector side)so I can easily access it with my thumb, without having to change my grip.
If you dont really need it though, I would get a carbine length... Less hassle and cost. Plus the same grip is possible with a CAR length rail but with the light mounted on the ejection port side and accessed with my middle finger. Not the easiest way to do it but it can be done.
smokey0118
01-31-10, 22:45
P.S. Beyond training, the first available money should really go towards quality optic rather than handguard.
Trigger's are also a place to throw some cash that have a HUGE payoff in functionality of the gun. My timney 4# skeleton trigger is the #1 best upgrade i made to the gun, worth every penny. I originally just threw a crappy utg midlength clamp-on quadrail. it was very sturdy and stayed put, but pressures up front changed POI depending on if i was shooting off-hand, prone from the grip-pod, or leaning against support. those random flyers from inconsistencies in shooting technique went away with the free float tube to give me this group last sat from 100 yds. Before the free-float it would be this group in the center with 5-6 flyers around the outside making a larger 1.5-2" group with the same ammo(also found out my barrel nut probably had 5 ft/lbs of torque on it from DTI's factory...plus about 5 gallons of red loctite on the fsb).
another option is go to a group-shoot somewhere and try a few different AR setups to see which you're the most comfortable with. different setups are better at different things, if you're trying for a cqb rifle, try to try out those different rifles on some steel plates with possible movement and shooting from different positions if you can.
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I suppose I would have to get a free float system if I went the midlength route.. And I would get a low profile gas block.
There are FSP models from DD but they are a bit pricey. Try searching... There's also a thread around here somewhere of a standard rifle length DD Omega modified and turned into an FSP model to drop right into a service M4.
Im with YVK though... You need to first figure out your needs functionally speaking.
Trigger's are also a place to throw some cash that have a HUGE payoff in functionality of the gun.
I disagree with you here. I, just like any other guy, like a nice trigger on my rifle and I have Geiselle triggers on two of my rifles. I am not sure what you mean by "functionality" but my rifles with service grade triggers are just as functional as the ones with match triggers. Good triggers are a must if you are after sub-MOA groups at slow pace. So, if that's what OP desires to do, then yes, you've got to have nice trigger. On a flip side, some of those match grade triggers have failed during high-intensity, high volume classes and I would be czreful about my choices there.
smokey0118
01-31-10, 23:22
I disagree with you here. I, just like any other guy, like a nice trigger on my rifle and I have Geiselle triggers on two of my rifles. I am not sure what you mean by "functionality" but my rifles with service grade triggers are just as functional as the ones with match triggers. Good triggers are a must if you are after sub-MOA groups at slow pace. So, if that's what OP desires to do, then yes, you've got to have nice trigger. On a flip side, some of those match grade triggers have failed during high-intensity, high volume classes and I would be czreful about my choices there.
tru, i prefaced it with depends on what he's designing his rifle around being good at. Also, with good trigger discipline people should be able to shoot well regardless of trigger....but a short, crisp consistent 4# with little overtravel or creep certainly helps you make the best of your potential. Thousands of rounds later my timney has performed flawlessly and i'm pretty confident the thing will hit like a ton of bricks every time without fail. other triggers with different spring sets and configurations sacrifice reliability for tighter tolerances. I used functionality because it was the word that come to mind when thinking of using an add-on to change towards a desired end. the function i wanted was a better trigger than the gritty mil-spec one that came with the dpms lpk. In that function, the timney is much better. as far as reliability goes, i'm still thinking my particular choice is fairly solid. anything that would cause it not to work(gravel or sand getting in there or jsut wearing it out) would also do the same to a mil-spec trigger. As far as basic shootability of a gun goes, you can sure get a bigger payoff moving from a gritty 8 lb trigger to a crisp 4# than changing other things around. for me a decent trigger allows me to place shots on target quicker and more accurately and i noticed a bigger improvement than other mods i've done.
...like optics seem to have done for you. I'm doin fine 300 yds and in with the cheap red-head epic 3-9x40 on there now. could i do better with more pricey optics? surely, but i've always shot open sights growing up and dimmer optics don't really bother me for what i'm shooting now. for me the trigger was more important than dumping that extra money into a better scope or acog or something. I figured i'd mention another area the OP may consider putting some money that's worked for me like you've suggested he put it towards things that have worked for you. just more food for thought to someone just starting out. :)
More importantly, what do you expect to get out of your AR?
If you want nothing more than for it to "look" cool, and impress the chicks, then I cant help you other than to say get what you think looks the coolest!
If you want to set up your AR to be a dead-nuts reliable defensive weapon that you can depend your life on, then there aint nothing wrong with accessorizing. As long as you make the proper choices, and as was pointed out earlier make sure to attend a carbine class or two first to get the fundamentals squared away.
As far as handguards and gasblocks go....
My preference is for either a standard pinned front sight base (FSB) or a low-profile gasblock that is properly installed underneath an extended length freefloat handguard that completely covers the gasblock. Having the low profile gasblock pinned into place is preferred, but not a necessity if the barrel is dimpled for a low profile gas block *AND* the gasblock is completely covered by a extended length handguard.
My choice for gasblocks is the LaRue Tactical low-profile gasblock as it has the most solid mounting hardware I have found on any gasblock, and it also covers up the unfinished areas that are exposed after the stock fixed FSB is removed.
If reliability and durability is your goal, then I would completely avoid running the YHM/RRA style clamp-on flip-up FSB, as they absolutely have a tendency to loosen up on their own due to the design. My PD purchased 25 RRA 16" middy's with the same clamp-on folding front sight/gasblock combo made by YHM and marketed by RRA. Some of the rifles still havent been fired, and the FSB's lossened up (on their own) to the point where you could twist it with your hand. Even red loctite only works temporarily as the 4 pinch bolts and the 2 opposing clamping areas are being stressed from so many different directions, loctite doesnt matter. We are in the process of replacing them all with something more durable & reliable.
The newer Troy TRX Extreme handguards are a phenomenal deal, and they come in 9, 11, and 13 inch lengths, and run about $200. The are one of the lighter designs on the market, and they look cool too!;)
Good luck!
Personally I'm a fan of the carbine length gas system. I have used commercial .223 loads which do not reliably cycle in mid or full length gas systems at higher altitutes, and when the weapon is dirty. Since my primary concern with a rifle is duty use, I want to ensure that I have the best reliability possible. I really haven't noticed significant wear on any of the M4s(some with 16" barrels) in the armory as a result of increased pressures, but even so parts are cheap can easily be replaced when signs of significant wear are observed during regular cleaning. Plus, if the rifle is dirty or you are operating in less than ideal environments, the additional *umpf* will ensure the rifle keeps going.
Other than the mounting of a flashlight which I can easily do with carbine length rails, I have no use for a longer rail system which adds more weight to the front. Other people have other needs though.
Ok after doing some thinking, I decided to go with midlength. The reason I liked KAC is because i see new authentic carbine rail sets going on ebay for about $200 and I just like their style. A couple people addressed whether i want functionality or just looks. I'm not going to be fighting off zombies any time soon, but obviously want a reliable functional shooter. I also want it to look cool. Thats half the fun I think. Now I'm looking at Larue's 9.0 handguards. And just get whichever gas block which can be concealed under the handguards. Anyone know if KAC rail covers will fit on larue rails?
KAC covers will go on LaRue rail, but I think - not sure 100% - that the only lock up at the end on a rail. The most economic solution on gas block would be to have an existing FSB shaved so it can fit under the rail.
KAC covers will go on LaRue rail, but I think - not sure 100% - that the only lock up at the end on a rail. The most economic solution on gas block would be to have an existing FSB shaved so it can fit under the rail.
They are supposed to lock up on both ends? I'm not familiar. I'd like to keep the existing FSB for the future in case.. Sucks everything is so expensive. I figure the best thin would be to post a WTB and get one used.
Other rail panels- like TangoDown - can be locked at any position of any rail. Say, you have a 12 inch rail and 4 inch TD cover - it can be securely positioned at the front end, rear end or anywhere in between. KAC panels don't give you these choices with some of the rails - they can only be locked securely either at one or another end of the rail, but not in "in-between" position.
Other rail panels- like TangoDown - can be locked at any position of any rail. Say, you have a 12 inch rail and 4 inch TD cover - it can be securely positioned at the front end, rear end or anywhere in between. KAC panels don't give you these choices with some of the rails - they can only be locked securely either at one or another end of the rail, but not in "in-between" position.
Got ya. Thanks for the explanation
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