View Full Version : Just saw this on another forum...THE CHART
Outlander Systems
02-01-10, 13:51
A bunch of butthurt going on...and then...this:
The "tier" list means nothing to your average shooter.
Substantially better in what aspect? Because it has more checks on "the chart"?
...when in reality that $599 Bargain Bin rifle is gonna run just as fine as that $1200 colt for the vast majority of shooters.
http://i47.tinypic.com/f9l4rp.jpg
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/681/tshirth.jpg
woodandsteel
02-01-10, 13:57
Is that The Chart?
I have it saved on my Droid. Just so I can show it to people who ask me for advice on what kind of carbine they should buy.
It ook me a minute. . . . but, THAT ROCKS!
Someone should add a yellow visor to that pic and send it back to that forum, with love from M4C. :D
Rob should frame that picture.
Lame. The D-bags comments from TOS.
It is a great referance. I liked the idea of it saved on my hand held for sharing.
woodandsteel
02-01-10, 14:15
It ook me a minute. . . . but, THAT ROCKS!
Took me a minute, too. At first I thought they were making fun of the I pad.
MarshallDodge
02-01-10, 14:21
...when in reality that $599 Bargain Bin rifle is gonna run just as fine as that $1200 colt for the vast majority of shooters.
There is some truth in that statement. The real problem is that the vast majority only shoot a couple hundred rounds a year and have never attended a training class.
Until the time comes when they understand that they need to train with their gun to improve their odds, the bargain rifle will serve them well.
I don't understand the controversy of The Chart. I didn't find anything in it that said "you should buy this rifle." It's just a straight up list of what companies have what features.
The Chart - Bunching panties on TOS since (whenever it was made).
Then again, I don't think they needed a chart for that to happen.
Outlander Systems
02-01-10, 14:27
Fixed it:
http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/3296/chart2.jpg
^^^^AHAHAHAHA!!!!
Navigating Collapse, You Sir, ROCK!!! :cool:
And he even has good trigger finger discipline.
The first place I saw the Moses picture was on XDtalk.com, and I believe that someone over there did add a visor as well.
Excellent. That Moshe was a bad ass.
He wouldn't have used an M4 from the right side of the Chart.
I registered there but have to wait to be activated.
http://tacticalyellowvisor.net/mediac/400_0/media/Skulls_Final.jpg
decodeddiesel
02-01-10, 15:58
I made it about 10 posts into that thread on GON.
OP-I know nothing about ARs, but I want a cool one with a bunch of geewiz go-fast shit on it. Is this list I made accurate?
Response 1-Yes, that's a good start. There's a few people who are in the know, search for their posts.
Response 3-Add my xxxxxx (tier2) to the list, it's milspec!
Response 4-Not all ARs are created equal. If you want to buy quality buy colt-bcm-lmt-dd-noveske-sabre. If you want to spend a little less initially but deal with a sub-par rifle buy (tier 2). Don't even bother with tier 3 (oly, dpms).
Response 5-Oh no, not DPMS that's a tier 1 rifle! (because I own one)
Response 6-Don't waste your money on a Colt. I built my gun with sub-tier 3 parts and although all I have done is post pictures of it on the interwebs it sure looks cool!
Response 7-me too! I even wasted money getting a tax stamp for my piece of shit.
Response 8-Look at how clever I am posting a picture of Moses holding the damning "Chart" which tells me I wasted my money and bought shit. The TDP doesn't mean anything. **** my life. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BB0Pu-rvFjs)
OP-I'm going to buy a tier 1 rifle (I actually listened to the advise.)
So they're wrong because they don't want to spend the money for a Noveske rig just to blast prairie dogs and plink at the shooting range? It's not the chart that tells off people who don't buy the ultimate, it's the forum members that like to make a huge deal just because someone bought a CMMG rifle and they don't like that it works just fine for its intended roles defined by the owner.
It's not just that forum. It's any place where people can voice their opinions on what rifle is best for the money without getting chastised for not buying a Noveske.
So chill out. Neither side is right in bitching out the other. It's their money and life; not yours.
I see too many people get defensive to the point of acting like they're the human version of a product when talking about which AR15 brand to go with.
So they're wrong because they don't want to spend the money for a Noveske rig just to blast prairie dogs and plink at the shooting range? It's not the chart that tells off people who don't buy the ultimate, it's the forum members that like to make a huge deal just because someone bought a CMMG rifle and they don't like that it works just fine for its intended roles defined by the owner.
It's not just that forum. It's any place where people can voice their opinions on what rifle is best for the money without getting chastised for not buying a Noveske.
So chill out. Neither side is right in bitching out the other. It's their money and life; not yours.
I see too many people get defensive to the point of acting like they're the human version of a product when talking about which AR15 brand to go with.
I actually agree with you. If someone wants an AR just to have one, to shoot 20 rounds a year, to scare Aunt Edna at the family BBQ, and post pictures of the gun on the internet, any old thing will do.
However, if you read some of the posts there that is NOT what they are saying, and the majority of the time when people get wound up about the Chart that is not what they are saying.
So they're wrong because they don't want to spend the money for a Noveske rig just to blast prairie dogs and plink at the shooting range? It's not the chart that tells off people who don't buy the ultimate, it's the forum members that like to make a huge deal just because someone bought a CMMG rifle and they don't like that it works just fine for its intended roles defined by the owner.
It's not just that forum. It's any place where people can voice their opinions on what rifle is best for the money without getting chastised for not buying a Noveske.
So chill out. Neither side is right in bitching out the other. It's their money and life; not yours.
I see too many people get defensive to the point of acting like they're the human version of a product when talking about which AR15 brand to go with.
I'm sensing a disturbance in the force.
Sure it's their money, but I'd guess that about 90% of the time, the person asking usually uses the following words or phrases in their post, in no particular order of importance (or lack thereof)
1. Tactical or "Tacticool"
2. Blaster
3. SHTF
4. Zombies
5. Home defense
6. Totally reliable
7. Top of the line
8. Lot's of rails for stuff
9. Flawless
10. Gunfight
11. (Insert gun rag fluff words here)
Now, that being said, those same people very likely never shoot more than a few hundred rounds per year. Sure, it works for their purposes, but that's generally NOT what they're asking for. They're asking for the best rifle for serious business, all the while, using the phrases above, and the end all be all is, it's usually AFTER they already bought a rifle.
Asking for advice is a tricky thing. If they aren't open to suggestions, they'll likely hear something they didn't want to hear. If they are open to suggestions, "The chart" provides a good resource and starting point.
When people ask for the bestest, mostest, awesomest, defense gun, they get the answers on the left side of the chart. Once they see how much those are, they tend to see that getting their awesome tacticool carbine really isn't worth dropping the kind of coin necessary when it's going to sit in the safe 90% of the time. In other words, they rationalize their purchase in the direction that matches their bank account balance.
In summary, if they ask for a rifle worth betting their life on, they're probably not going to get decent advice for free like they can from the chart. If people are offering advice on a gun that is worth betting their life on, they'd better have enough stones to admit that their definition of "flawless" isn't the same as others who shoot more.
Outlander Systems
02-01-10, 16:22
Wow, Oly, and THIS in the same breath:
...go bang everytime
Cliches-a-plenty...
LOL Decoded--good summary
At least it looks like the OP is buying himself a DDXV
4. Zombies
Hey hey hey now. Don't come crying to me when the Zombies come to eat your brains. I have tried to warn you guys. ;)
I saw the "CHART" on an M&P forum. Some of the pistola guys seem a little clueless when it comes to ARs. For instance:
1. honestly how many civilians are going to be using their rifle in military like conditions? to me the is meaningless, but i still owned a colt and i'm buying a s&w MP15
2. Then why do you own a Colt?
3. because it is NFA, and I like F.A. if i had found a registered receiver for cheaper i would have gone that route and saved some money.
4. So much for me thinking you went with it for the quality! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wallbash.gif)
5. thats like saying people buy porsches or mercedes (owned one and got rid it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumbdown.gif) worse buy ever) for "quality" i see so many porsches in the shop for repair its not funny.
just because i went colt doesnt say anything about my choice; price, looks, ergos, resale value, etc... theres a lot of other reason i could have gone colt. personally when i buy any firearm i want it to be reliable and hold its value i could have easily gone LMT, BCM, or Noveske, a lot of AR15's are not far from each other on "quality" terms. what makes a milspec colt any better than a DPMS? its not much atleast to me and im sure others agree. i think way to many people get hard-on's when they hear "milspec" or "tactical" sorry but i dont care.
6. (finally gives up) I was pretty sure you wouldn't get it.
RogerinTPA
02-01-10, 21:56
Awe Man! That pic is hesterical! We should bomb every gun forum with that..,LOL!
Fixed it:
http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/3296/chart2.jpg
Even without shooting it in a high round count class, I have personally seen certain lower ranking brands of ARs on the chart having problems. In one Carbine class that was not particularly high round count, I saw a Buhsmaster that would not make it 10 rounds without shortstroking.
I saw another friend's Bushmaster's gas key loosen after having about 1000 rounds fired through it over 10 years. So I have to wonder when someone says they are not getting the AR to go to war or a for high round count class, but only to put 100 rounds a year through on only for home defense.
Hey hey hey now. Don't come crying to me when the Zombies come to eat your brains. I have tried to warn you guys. ;)
No joke. I'm just not feeling the love either. :confused: ;)
I wish Trijicon would make some chest plates with the 10 Commandments on them:p
Gosh that photo has got to be a screensaver, LOL:D
We need Iraq_Ninja to work his magic on that picture. That guy is a photochop master.
So they're wrong because they don't want to spend the money for a Noveske rig just to blast prairie dogs and plink at the shooting range? It's not the chart that tells off people who don't buy the ultimate, it's the forum members that like to make a huge deal just because someone bought a CMMG rifle and they don't like that it works just fine for its intended roles defined by the owner.
It's not just that forum. It's any place where people can voice their opinions on what rifle is best for the money without getting chastised for not buying a Noveske.
So chill out. Neither side is right in bitching out the other. It's their money and life; not yours.
I see too many people get defensive to the point of acting like they're the human version of a product when talking about which AR15 brand to go with.
Well put.
One word: elitism
Well put.
One word: elitism
Perhaps it is elitism some of the time, but a lot of times a person buys a "lesser" rifle for as much money or just a few hundrel less than one of the tier one guns. In these instances it is just pointing out someones foolishness.
The price argument doesn't hold much water these days.
You can build a BCM for damn cheap. Cheaper than most off-the-rack at a gun shop. I can't remember where, but someone just priced out their BCM build at 850 dollars.
Sounds like a deal to me!
The problem isn't The Chart™. It's just data that's been lovingly compiled.
The problem comes when individuals use The Chart™ to bludgeon others.
I find The Chart™ to be a tremendous resource, but that's all it it - a resource. At some point each individual shooter needs to stand up on their own hind legs and make choices for themselves.
John_Wayne777
02-02-10, 07:55
Well put.
One word: elitism
I have a different word:
Reality.
Reality is that most people buying an AR-15...or darn near any other firearm...have absolutely no clue what they are doing. Contrary to popular belief the fact that one is born with a Y chromosome does not give them god-like knowledge about guns, cars, or women...although convincing people of this rality is often slightly less difficult than turning lead into gold or teaching a pig to play chess. Most people have no idea what the differences in the various options on the market are, partially because of ignorance and partially because of the outright lying companies do about their products. "We're milspec!" Companies spend bunches of money promoting their "milspec!" features for one reason:
It helps sell guns.
Why?
Because people realize the limitations of their knowledge and figure that the military by now probably has a decent grasp on how to build an AR-15 style weapon that works and that will offer a reasonable service life.
Add to the deliberate misinformation posing as marketing the legions of guys who have extremely limited experience with a weapon or weapon system but an ego so big that they need a wheelbarrow to carry it around day to day who insist that they have a better read on everything than anybody else, and the end result is what most gun forums look like. You have some people genuinely looking for information along with a certain contingent of self-labeled experts who scream the loudest and therefore dominate the conversation.
The end result is vast heaps of confusion to the point where there is a demand for websites who provide good information...websites that ban the loud dumbasses on sight....websites like this one.
It is not remotely "elitist" to maintain that some companies do a better job of building AR-15 pattern rifles that work properly than others. It is not elitist to maintain that if someone intends to use their weapon for serious social purposes that some AR-15 pattern rifles are better suited to the task than others. It is simply an acknowledgment of reality.
I am sick to bloody death of reading the ignorant drivel belched forth on websites by people who ought to have the brains and maturity to shut the hell up when they are beyond the limits of their knowledge. I am sick of reading that any attempt at customizing your firearm will land you in prison should you have to actually use it for its intended purpose. I am sick of reading that birdshot will blow somebody in half without having any risk of hurting innocents. I am sick of reading that there are no potential safety drawbacks to a weapon with a 5 pound trigger, no manual safeties, and a disassembly procedure that requires a trigger pull. I am sick of reading that Hydra-Shoks are the bestest bullets EVER. I am sick of reading the musings of gunshop law experts who argue that the castle doctrine allows the legal use of anchor shots. I am sick of reading that a Kel-Tec .32 is more than enough gun for any situation. I am sick of reading that white lights are just going to get you shot, that tritium sights are completely unnecessary on a carry gun, and that lasers are useless toys. I am sick of reading that red dot sights are just "gadgets" that people just buy to look cool. I am sick of reading that a 5'3" female should buy a Sig P226 as a carry gun because that's what the SEALs use. I am sick of reading that it is impossible to reliably and comfortably conceal anything bigger than a NAA mini revolver on a daily basis. I am sick of reading that anybody can shoot like Rob Leatham if they have a trick handgun. I am sick of reading that people will be supremely accurate and at the top of their game in a gunfight. I am sick of reading that if you need more than 5 shots you shouldn't be in the fight.
I am especially sick of seeing people pronounce that people don't "need" a weapon built to the quality of a Colt 6920, a genuine Aimpoint sight, or a flashlight that can actually be depended on to function unless they are fast-roping out of Blackhawk helicopters and responding to questions about what they do with "That's classified."
IF someone is savvy enough to know what they are buying and understands the costs and benefits of the 500 dollar AR and still wants one, rock on. Buy it. They obviously know what they are doing and why they are doing it....and they probably aren't the ones asking the bloody questions in the first place.
If, however, someone comes online (like lots of people do) confused by the sheer number of options out there and trying to navigate through the greenish-brown bullshit haze that envelops the world of firearms to the point where the stink permeates everything, then they deserve a reasonable answer...and those who can't provide it should have the decency to kindly shut the **** up.
30 cal slut
02-02-10, 08:07
LOL. Much butt-hurt detected.
The Chart stands on its own merits, and I believe it is a useful tool to guide one's decision making when it comes to the purchase of an AR.
I think overall, The Chart has been beneficial, because it has 1) educated consumers, and 2) effectively segmented the market for black rifles between hobbyists and more defensively oriented customers. I suspected that the former outnumber the latter.
Rob must love it when people bellyache about The Chart. It's free advertising, after all. The more people see it, by the law of small percentages, the more savvy buyers become. :)
I have a different word:
Reality.
Agreed.
However, it is the elitist attitude that keeps the subject afloat because nine times out of ten this subject comes up because of a post on another internet forum.
I am sick of reading that there are no potential safety drawbacks to a weapon with a 5 pound trigger, no manual safeties, and a disassembly procedure that requires a trigger pull.
Let's not get carried away now :D.
I am sick to bloody death of reading the ignorant drivel belched forth on websites by people who ought to have the brains and maturity to shut the hell up when they are beyond the limits of their knowledge. I am sick of reading that any attempt at customizing your firearm will land you in prison should you have to actually use it for its intended purpose. I am sick of reading that birdshot will blow somebody in half without having any risk of hurting innocents. I am sick of reading that there are no potential safety drawbacks to a weapon with a 5 pound trigger, no manual safeties, and a disassembly procedure that requires a trigger pull. I am sick of reading that Hydra-Shoks are the bestest bullets EVER. I am sick of reading the musings of gunshop law experts who argue that the castle doctrine allows the legal use of anchor shots. I am sick of reading that a Kel-Tec .32 is more than enough gun for any situation. I am sick of reading that white lights are just going to get you shot, that tritium sights are completely unnecessary on a carry gun, and that lasers are useless toys. I am sick of reading that red dot sights are just "gadgets" that people just buy to look cool. I am sick of reading that a 5'3" female should buy a Sig P226 as a carry gun because that's what the SEALs use. I am sick of reading that it is impossible to reliably and comfortably conceal anything bigger than a NAA mini revolver on a daily basis. I am sick of reading that anybody can shoot like Rob Leatham if they have a trick handgun. I am sick of reading that people will be supremely accurate and at the top of their game in a gunfight. I am sick of reading that if you need more than 5 shots you shouldn't be in the fight.
Do you feel better now?
:)
The problem isn't The Chart™. It's just data that's been lovingly compiled.
The problem comes when individuals use The Chart™ to bludgeon others.
nail on the head...
I wonder if the folks at Kelley Blue Book have similar discussions...
KBB - "That Toyota Camry is a top rated used car.."
Cust - "WHOA WHOA WHOA... Yea, but I can find a used car that will go VROOOM every time and will get me from point A to point B..."
KBB - "Sure, but value, resale, warranty, parts...they are all better in the long run on the Camry.."
Cust - "Jerk."
kaiservontexas
02-02-10, 10:10
I have a different word:
Reality.
Reality is that most people buying an AR-15...or darn near any other firearm...have absolutely no clue what they are doing. Contrary to popular belief the fact that one is born with a Y chromosome does not give them god-like knowledge about guns, cars, or women...although convincing people of this rality is often slightly less difficult than turning lead into gold or teaching a pig to play chess. Most people have no idea what the differences in the various options on the market are, partially because of ignorance and partially because of the outright lying companies do about their products. "We're milspec!" Companies spend bunches of money promoting their "milspec!" features for one reason:
It helps sell guns.
Why?
Because people realize the limitations of their knowledge and figure that the military by now probably has a decent grasp on how to build an AR-15 style weapon that works and that will offer a reasonable service life.
Add to the deliberate misinformation posing as marketing the legions of guys who have extremely limited experience with a weapon or weapon system but an ego so big that they need a wheelbarrow to carry it around day to day who insist that they have a better read on everything than anybody else, and the end result is what most gun forums look like. You have some people genuinely looking for information along with a certain contingent of self-labeled experts who scream the loudest and therefore dominate the conversation.
The end result is vast heaps of confusion to the point where there is a demand for websites who provide good information...websites that ban the loud dumbasses on sight....websites like this one.
It is not remotely "elitist" to maintain that some companies do a better job of building AR-15 pattern rifles that work properly than others. It is not elitist to maintain that if someone intends to use their weapon for serious social purposes that some AR-15 pattern rifles are better suited to the task than others. It is simply an acknowledgment of reality.
I am sick to bloody death of reading the ignorant drivel belched forth on websites by people who ought to have the brains and maturity to shut the hell up when they are beyond the limits of their knowledge. I am sick of reading that any attempt at customizing your firearm will land you in prison should you have to actually use it for its intended purpose. I am sick of reading that birdshot will blow somebody in half without having any risk of hurting innocents. I am sick of reading that there are no potential safety drawbacks to a weapon with a 5 pound trigger, no manual safeties, and a disassembly procedure that requires a trigger pull. I am sick of reading that Hydra-Shoks are the bestest bullets EVER. I am sick of reading the musings of gunshop law experts who argue that the castle doctrine allows the legal use of anchor shots. I am sick of reading that a Kel-Tec .32 is more than enough gun for any situation. I am sick of reading that white lights are just going to get you shot, that tritium sights are completely unnecessary on a carry gun, and that lasers are useless toys. I am sick of reading that red dot sights are just "gadgets" that people just buy to look cool. I am sick of reading that a 5'3" female should buy a Sig P226 as a carry gun because that's what the SEALs use. I am sick of reading that it is impossible to reliably and comfortably conceal anything bigger than a NAA mini revolver on a daily basis. I am sick of reading that anybody can shoot like Rob Leatham if they have a trick handgun. I am sick of reading that people will be supremely accurate and at the top of their game in a gunfight. I am sick of reading that if you need more than 5 shots you shouldn't be in the fight.
I am especially sick of seeing people pronounce that people don't "need" a weapon built to the quality of a Colt 6920, a genuine Aimpoint sight, or a flashlight that can actually be depended on to function unless they are fast-roping out of Blackhawk helicopters and responding to questions about what they do with "That's classified."
IF someone is savvy enough to know what they are buying and understands the costs and benefits of the 500 dollar AR and still wants one, rock on. Buy it. They obviously know what they are doing and why they are doing it....and they probably aren't the ones asking the bloody questions in the first place.
If, however, someone comes online (like lots of people do) confused by the sheer number of options out there and trying to navigate through the greenish-brown bullshit haze that envelops the world of firearms to the point where the stink permeates everything, then they deserve a reasonable answer...and those who can't provide it should have the decency to kindly shut the **** up.
Ignorance is astounding, and I agree. Heck if I knew what I did now I would have never dropped money on the BM I own, especially after taking my build out for the first time this weekend, talk about smooth. I did what I did back then because the majority opinion online said good to go. Then as time progresses and I find a site like this one and notice the difference . . . there is nothing snobbish about it. It is reality, and the truth is if the customers would wake up then either some companies would go away or things would improve vastly. This does not just apply to the AR-15 world either.
And frankly I do not care what the weapons' purpose is be it hunting, paper punching, or defense. I want quality. I do not want a failure at some critical point or spend my time clearing failures at the range even with just a plinking rifle. It is a time suck, can cause one to miss their game (hunting), or in the case of defense get one killed. I especially do not want to spend my time sending things here or there for repair work or working on it myself. I do admit I do not mind tinkering, but that is what part kits are for, not NIB firearms.
The_War_Wagon
02-02-10, 10:16
Wow, Oly, and THIS in the same breath:
Cliches-a-plenty...
So how's it feel, knowing you ARE the AR KING of Georgia! :D
Outlander Systems
02-02-10, 10:43
I have a different word:
Reality.
Reality is that most people buying an AR-15...or darn near any other firearm...have absolutely no clue what they are doing. Contrary to popular belief the fact that one is born with a Y chromosome does not give them god-like knowledge about guns, cars, or women...although convincing people of this rality is often slightly less difficult than turning lead into gold or teaching a pig to play chess. Most people have no idea what the differences in the various options on the market are, partially because of ignorance and partially because of the outright lying companies do about their products. "We're milspec!" Companies spend bunches of money promoting their "milspec!" features for one reason:
It helps sell guns.
Why?
Because people realize the limitations of their knowledge and figure that the military by now probably has a decent grasp on how to build an AR-15 style weapon that works and that will offer a reasonable service life.
Add to the deliberate misinformation posing as marketing the legions of guys who have extremely limited experience with a weapon or weapon system but an ego so big that they need a wheelbarrow to carry it around day to day who insist that they have a better read on everything than anybody else, and the end result is what most gun forums look like. You have some people genuinely looking for information along with a certain contingent of self-labeled experts who scream the loudest and therefore dominate the conversation.
The end result is vast heaps of confusion to the point where there is a demand for websites who provide good information...websites that ban the loud dumbasses on sight....websites like this one.
It is not remotely "elitist" to maintain that some companies do a better job of building AR-15 pattern rifles that work properly than others. It is not elitist to maintain that if someone intends to use their weapon for serious social purposes that some AR-15 pattern rifles are better suited to the task than others. It is simply an acknowledgment of reality.
I am sick to bloody death of reading the ignorant drivel belched forth on websites by people who ought to have the brains and maturity to shut the hell up when they are beyond the limits of their knowledge. I am sick of reading that any attempt at customizing your firearm will land you in prison should you have to actually use it for its intended purpose. I am sick of reading that birdshot will blow somebody in half without having any risk of hurting innocents. I am sick of reading that there are no potential safety drawbacks to a weapon with a 5 pound trigger, no manual safeties, and a disassembly procedure that requires a trigger pull. I am sick of reading that Hydra-Shoks are the bestest bullets EVER. I am sick of reading the musings of gunshop law experts who argue that the castle doctrine allows the legal use of anchor shots. I am sick of reading that a Kel-Tec .32 is more than enough gun for any situation. I am sick of reading that white lights are just going to get you shot, that tritium sights are completely unnecessary on a carry gun, and that lasers are useless toys. I am sick of reading that red dot sights are just "gadgets" that people just buy to look cool. I am sick of reading that a 5'3" female should buy a Sig P226 as a carry gun because that's what the SEALs use. I am sick of reading that it is impossible to reliably and comfortably conceal anything bigger than a NAA mini revolver on a daily basis. I am sick of reading that anybody can shoot like Rob Leatham if they have a trick handgun. I am sick of reading that people will be supremely accurate and at the top of their game in a gunfight. I am sick of reading that if you need more than 5 shots you shouldn't be in the fight.
I am especially sick of seeing people pronounce that people don't "need" a weapon built to the quality of a Colt 6920, a genuine Aimpoint sight, or a flashlight that can actually be depended on to function unless they are fast-roping out of Blackhawk helicopters and responding to questions about what they do with "That's classified."
IF someone is savvy enough to know what they are buying and understands the costs and benefits of the 500 dollar AR and still wants one, rock on. Buy it. They obviously know what they are doing and why they are doing it....and they probably aren't the ones asking the bloody questions in the first place.
If, however, someone comes online (like lots of people do) confused by the sheer number of options out there and trying to navigate through the greenish-brown bullshit haze that envelops the world of firearms to the point where the stink permeates everything, then they deserve a reasonable answer...and those who can't provide it should have the decency to kindly shut the **** up.
Post of the Year™
Bolded are the areas that I incessantly hear from gun owners I personally know, who I also personally know own firearms that have never had so much as one round through them.
The white light through RDS section comes up for me in conversation time, and time, and time, and time, and time, and time, and time again. I am so sick of it, it's to the point where I don't even want to talk about the subject anymore, unless specifically asked.
ETA: You forgot to mention the fact that the military was killing people with iron sights for hundreds of years "just fine". They also once used muskets, and those seemed to work pretty well...
Outlander Systems
02-02-10, 10:54
So how's it feel, knowing you ARE the AR KING of Georgia! :D
That is possibly one of the Fuddiest forums on the 'net.
I think a lot of what JW777's expressed is a direct result of the "macho" attitude that the shooting world is up to its eyeballs in.
It's like every bad male stereotype rolled into a bite-sized package.
This place is the only breath of sanity I find on-line.
That moses picture has me inspired to start a chart photoshop contest. TYV shirt (as long at you're L or XL) as the prize. :D
Outlander Systems
02-02-10, 11:25
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5138/cryingg.jpg
Outlander Systems
02-02-10, 11:34
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/6861/chartexplode.jpg
Outlander Systems
02-02-10, 12:01
http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/912/holybookar15.jpg
Outlander Systems
02-02-10, 12:15
I've got all day, Dawg...
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/8715/chartm4.jpg
This is Awesome.
Very, very awesome.
You're cracking me up! You must be REALLY bored. :D
Outlander Systems
02-02-10, 12:37
You're cracking me up! You must be REALLY bored. :D
Totally. Rain day at work, so I'm sitting on my ass at home.
Outlander Systems
02-02-10, 12:44
http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/8325/cautionchart.jpg
Outlander Systems
02-02-10, 13:07
http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/4607/nytchart.jpg
I took the day off of work, just so I could see what NavCo does next.
Outlander Systems
02-02-10, 13:24
If I could get my &$#*'in scanner to work, I'd be cooking up a good one...
Keep em coming, this is hilarious.
00leland00
02-02-10, 13:57
Nice work, NavCol.
GON is chock full o' tards. The only good thing about it is the swap n sell.
Outlander Systems
02-02-10, 14:02
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1140/chartshitter.jpg
John_Wayne777
02-02-10, 14:06
Agreed.
However, it is the elitist attitude that keeps the subject afloat because nine times out of ten this subject comes up because of a post on another internet forum.
I would have to disagree, as I've seen it come up on other boards and generally the conversation goes like this:
Guy 1: Hey, dudes...what's the deal with this chart thing?
Guy2: It's a load of crap put out by some elitist jackass who drinks cold kool-aide!
Guy3: Yeah! People who rely on the chart suck!
Guy4: I've put seven whole rounds through my chokemaster in the last 98 years and it's never given me a problem! Screw the chart!
Etc.
The people yelling loudest about the chart are the ones who insist it is worthless and that their brand X is just as good. The people who try to calmly relate what the chart is supposed to do and why it exists get drowned out by the drooling retards who want to have a great big sloppy circle jerk about who hates the chart more, who hates the author more, and who hates the site the chart is most associated with more....etc.
I rarely see people running around insisting that if your gun didn't get X number of checkmarks on the chart that it's a worthless piece of junk. Much more often I see the exact opposite, or I see someone mention the desirability of a feature mentioned on the chart being descended upon by idiots in a manner reminiscent of Ned Beaty's experience in Deliverance.
Do you feel better now?
:)
No, because the rules forbid excessive profanity and making a post that just repeats the F word over and over and over again would be frowned upon.
I would have to disagree, as I've seen it come up on other boards and generally the conversation goes like this:
Guy 1: Hey, dudes...what's the deal with this chart thing?
Guy2: It's a load of crap put out by some elitist jackass who drinks cold kool-aide!
Guy3: Yeah! People who rely on the chart suck!
Guy4: I've put seven whole rounds through my chokemaster in the last 98 years and it's never given me a problem! Screw the chart!
Etc.
The people yelling loudest about the chart are the ones who insist it is worthless and that their brand X is just as good. The people who try to calmly relate what the chart is supposed to do and why it exists get drowned out by the drooling retards who want to have a great big sloppy circle jerk about who hates the chart more, who hates the author more, and who hates the site the chart is most associated with more....etc.
I rarely see people running around insisting that if your gun didn't get X number of checkmarks on the chart that it's a worthless piece of junk. Much more often I see the exact opposite, or I see someone mention the desirability of a feature mentioned on the chart being descended upon by idiots in a manner reminiscent of Ned Beaty's experience in Deliverance.
The above has been my experience as well.
I would have to disagree, as I've seen it come up on other boards and generally the conversation goes like this:
Guy 1: Hey, dudes...what's the deal with this chart thing?
Guy2: It's a load of crap put out by some elitist jackass who drinks cold kool-aide!
Guy3: Yeah! People who rely on the chart suck!
Guy4: I've put seven whole rounds through my chokemaster in the last 98 years and it's never given me a problem! Screw the chart!
My favorite of all time is still that I secretly work for Colt. in Florida. and somehow never having gotten a check from them.
what a lot of people miss, that was covered in the Combat Tactics article, is that I started down this path unsure of what I would get. Everyone I trusted said "Colt is best", but none of them could really qualify and quantify why. So I went looking. I have to tell you, I truthfully expected that BM and others would wind up with just as many checkmarks. Imagine my surprise...
If nothing else comes of the Chart, I do believe that it was a game changer for the industry in that far more consumers are now educated about what they are buying. They can choose to ignore that education if they'd like, but it doesn't change the fact that they know better.
If I could get my &$#*'in scanner to work, I'd be cooking up a good one...
http://www.rankopedia.com/CandidatePix/8281.gif
http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/912/holybookar15.jpg
That's really good
kaiservontexas
02-02-10, 15:27
http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/8325/cautionchart.jpg
My personal favorite.
The price argument doesn't hold much water these days.
You can build a BCM for damn cheap. Cheaper than most off-the-rack at a gun shop. I can't remember where, but someone just priced out their BCM build at 850 dollars.
Sounds like a deal to me!
Bingo. A crappy AR is the same price as a Colt, LMT or BCM. So if that is the case then why buy the lessor quality gun???????????
C4
Well put.
One word: elitism
One word: Incorrect
Now I am sure that there are some people that like to rub others nose in the fact that they might have more money and can buy a nicer AR, but those folks are not common (at least not on here).
What shooters on this forum are interested in is reliability (as their life just might depend on it one day). Now if that is "elitism" well sign me up!
C4
I've got all day, Dawg...
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/8715/chartm4.jpg
This is FANTASTIC! :D
C4
No, because the rules forbid excessive profanity and making a post that just repeats the F word over and over and over again would be frowned upon.
i lol...one of the funniest M4 threads ever.
At some point each individual shooter needs to stand up on their own hind legs and make choices for themselves.
Exactly. That's why I hate seeing threads with a title like "Which (insert AR component here) should I get?" People will get hundreds of opinons on which parts are the best, and probably be even more confused. You just need to use the information on this forum and make your own decisions.
JBecker 72
02-02-10, 17:11
Perhaps it is elitism some of the time, but a lot of times a person buys a "lesser" rifle for as much money or just a few hundrel less than one of the tier one guns. In these instances it is just pointing out someones foolishness.
I agree.
If my LMT was running standard M4 hand guards, grip and stock, it would be right at $1000 ready to go.
Why would you spend that same $1000 on a product with less features and lower QC?
RogerinTPA
02-02-10, 17:24
Post of the Year™
Bolded are the areas that I incessantly hear from gun owners I personally know, who I also personally know own firearms that have never had so much as one round through them.
The white light through RDS section comes up for me in conversation time, and time, and time, and time, and time, and time, and time again. I am so sick of it, it's to the point where I don't even want to talk about the subject anymore, unless specifically asked.
ETA: You forgot to mention the fact that the military was killing people with iron sights for hundreds of years "just fine". They also once used muskets, and those seemed to work pretty well...
Absolutely. JW777's post is prolific and should be Tacked all by itself!:cool:
So should I get the aimpoint or the Eotech?
JBecker 72
02-02-10, 17:28
So should I get the aimpoint or the Eotech?
:D lol
Outlander Systems
02-02-10, 17:32
An optics chart. The gnashing of teeth would be epic...
The_War_Wagon
02-02-10, 17:44
That is possibly one of the Fuddiest forums on the 'net.
I think a lot of what JW777's expressed is a direct result of the "macho" attitude that the shooting world is up to its eyeballs in.
It's like every bad male stereotype rolled into a bite-sized package.
This place is the only breath of sanity I find on-line.
Why is it so many STATE boads, attract ALL the FUDDs. :rolleyes: The PA site is just as bad. I think the "F" in PAFOA actually stands for "FUDD." :eek:
As I have been reading this thread I had no clue what everyone was talking about. I have never seen or heard of a chart on ar-15 manufacturer quality. I understand how alot of you can get annoyed by 19 year old kids who just bought an ar15 and want to act like a green beret at the range with there buddy's. That is annoying and most of the time not safe! Even though I have not seen this chart I believe if one wants an AR-15 Rifle that will NEVER fail to eject, double fee or jam EVER, and shoot sub MOA all day every day. Then I think what there looking for is not an AR-15 or any rife for that matter. What they're looking for is a samurai sword! KATANA!!
The Chart is especially helpful for those new to the AR platform. It is also a good place to go when someone says, "My Oly, BM, CDNN, etc is just as good as..." so one can explain to them(when necessary) why it isn't. The problem comes in when people refuse to acknowledge the truth.
As I have been reading this thread I had no clue what everyone was talking about. I have never seen or heard of a chart on ar-15 manufacturer quality. I understand how alot of you can get annoyed by 19 year old kids who just bought an ar15 and want to act like a green beret at the range with there buddy's. That is annoying and most of the time not safe! Even though I have not seen this chart I believe if one wants an AR-15 Rifle that will NEVER fail to eject, double fee or jam EVER, and shoot sub MOA all day every day. Then I think what there looking for is not an AR-15 or any rife for that matter. What they're looking for is a samurai sword! KATANA!!
Sorry my good man, but this reply is as one dimensional as it gets.
Let's try to keep things in their proper perspective.
SeriousStudent
02-02-10, 18:59
...........
No, because the rules forbid excessive profanity and making a post that just repeats the F word over and over and over again would be frowned upon.
Thank you for eloquently stating what so many of us feel, but lacked the literary skill to express. I raise my glass to you, sir. :D
And Navigating Collapse: You, sir, are underemployed. You need to take over one of the large networks as their creative director. ;)
I like this.
The chart was passed down to Moses from God to help lead the Israelites out of bondage.
When the Israelites strayed from the ways of the Pure by producing Galils and now the Tavor which is a Bullpup.
Since Moses is no longer available, God did the modern thing: he went through a temp agency and wound up getting Rob S.
http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/912/holybookar15.jpg
I like the Bible one too.
Anyone else got anything?
ColdDeadHands
02-03-10, 06:58
One word: Incorrect
Now I am sure that there are some people that like to rub others nose in the fact that they might have more money and can buy a nicer AR, but those folks are not common (at least not on here).
What shooters on this forum are interested in is reliability (as their life just might depend on it one day). Now if that is "elitism" well sign me up!
C4
I agree. Some people know better tho and they think that a RRA or the like is "plenty" good because most gun shops are selling them. Like my brother in law...he has a Colt 20" AR. He's looking to buy a "tactical" AR and found a RRA for 800 bucks somewhere. No matter what I tell him - he's pretty much set on the RRA because he likes it and the price is right.
It doesn't do any good to tell him that for 200 - 300 bucks more he can get a quality BCM, DD or LMT. :rolleyes:
I agree. Some people know better tho and they think that a RRA or the like is "plenty" good because most gun shops are selling them. Like my brother in law...he has a Colt 20" AR. He's looking to buy a "tactical" AR and found a RRA for 800 bucks somewhere. No matter what I tell him - he's pretty much set on the RRA because he likes it and the price is right.
It doesn't do any good to tell him that for 200 - 300 bucks more he can get a quality BCM, DD or LMT. :rolleyes:
Sounds EXACTLY lika an LEO friend of mine in FL. "I can get the RRA with quad rail and everything for $800 from a friend of mine" I told him, if you are going to trust your life to a weapon, I'd do a little research...
KalashniKEV
02-03-10, 22:47
"Now the Georgians bought Bushmaster... and we all saw what happened to them! The fate of this Army, this nation, and this entire region rests in THE CHART!!!!!"
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r220/Kalashnikev/chartiraqhcopy.jpg
(My humble contribution... took 10 min)
"Now the Georgians bought Bushmaster... and we all saw what happened to them! The fate of this Army, this nation, and this entire region rests in THE CHART!!!!!"
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r220/Kalashnikev/chartiraqhcopy.jpg
(My humble contribution... took 10 min)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Georgia/Untitled-2-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Georgia/Untitled-13.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Georgia/1447558.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Georgia/1447560.jpg
KalashniKEV
02-03-10, 22:55
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Georgia/1447560.jpg
The Russians even stole the toilets out of the barracks, but they didn't want the Bushies b/c their intel had picked up on THE CHART!
Zhe pig-dogs did not follow zhe chart, eh Komrad Sergeant? See where it got zhem. Burn zhem, burn zhem all.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Georgia/Untitled-13.jpg
organdonor
02-04-10, 00:18
...when in reality that $599 Bargain Bin rifle is gonna run just as fine as that $1200 colt for the vast majority of shooters.I agree.
One word: elitism
Yes.
I have a different word:
Reality.
Yes.
Perhaps it is elitism some of the time, but a lot of times a person buys a "lesser" rifle for as much money or just a few hundrel less than one of the tier one guns. In these instances it is just pointing out someones foolishness.
Yes. Prices being what they are, it is often a mistake to buy a lesser quality rifle.
Problem is, some people giving the advice don't know how to without coming across as an ass, especially through the prism of the written word. It really doesn't take that much effort or vocabulary mastery to write out advice to someone without sounding like a prick. You don't have to be overly sensitive. Just read it out loud. Would you say this to the same guy if you were standing face to face? Pass that test and we'd all be better off...
...and those who can't provide it should have the decency to kindly shut the **** up.
Yes they should. Most do not, unfortunately.
ETA: That thread actually looked mild to me, both from the "butthurt" standpoint and advice given. It gets much worse than that...
There is some truth in that statement. The real problem is that the vast majority only shoot a couple hundred rounds a year and have never attended a training class.
Until the time comes when they understand that they need to train with their gun to improve their odds, the bargain rifle will serve them well.
I agree. Buy whatever meets your needs. No one will think ill of you if you make a purchase and are happy with your purchase afterwards.
People get into trouble when they spec $600 and tell everyone who bought more expensive rifles that we got ripped off. No, we just bought what met OUR needs and WE'RE happy with our purchases.
So should I get the aimpoint or the Eotech?
Neither - the Chinese knock-offs are just as good at 1/6th the price.
Icedaddy56
02-04-10, 16:08
I am not new to the forum, but most of the time I just lurk. As retired LEO I just asked some of my buddies what the best gun was and ended up buying a STAG. Not a bad gun according to the chart, but could be better. I learned from the experienced and dedicated people on this forum that reliability is better than a name and the two are not neccesarily the same. So I read this forum and kept my untrained mouth shut. I upgraded my Stag with some quality parts, and purchased a Bravo Company unit. Kudo's to all here on the forum for their knowledge and willingness to share it. Even to those on TOS :D ( Wisdom and its application do not equate to Elitism )
QuietShootr
02-04-10, 17:08
I have a different word:
Reality.
Reality is that most people buying an AR-15...or darn near any other firearm...have absolutely no clue what they are doing. Contrary to popular belief the fact that one is born with a Y chromosome does not give them god-like knowledge about guns, cars, or women...although convincing people of this rality is often slightly less difficult than turning lead into gold or teaching a pig to play chess. Most people have no idea what the differences in the various options on the market are, partially because of ignorance and partially because of the outright lying companies do about their products. "We're milspec!" Companies spend bunches of money promoting their "milspec!" features for one reason:
It helps sell guns.
Why?
Because people realize the limitations of their knowledge and figure that the military by now probably has a decent grasp on how to build an AR-15 style weapon that works and that will offer a reasonable service life.
Add to the deliberate misinformation posing as marketing the legions of guys who have extremely limited experience with a weapon or weapon system but an ego so big that they need a wheelbarrow to carry it around day to day who insist that they have a better read on everything than anybody else, and the end result is what most gun forums look like. You have some people genuinely looking for information along with a certain contingent of self-labeled experts who scream the loudest and therefore dominate the conversation.
The end result is vast heaps of confusion to the point where there is a demand for websites who provide good information...websites that ban the loud dumbasses on sight....websites like this one.
It is not remotely "elitist" to maintain that some companies do a better job of building AR-15 pattern rifles that work properly than others. It is not elitist to maintain that if someone intends to use their weapon for serious social purposes that some AR-15 pattern rifles are better suited to the task than others. It is simply an acknowledgment of reality.
I am sick to bloody death of reading the ignorant drivel belched forth on websites by people who ought to have the brains and maturity to shut the hell up when they are beyond the limits of their knowledge. I am sick of reading that any attempt at customizing your firearm will land you in prison should you have to actually use it for its intended purpose. I am sick of reading that birdshot will blow somebody in half without having any risk of hurting innocents. I am sick of reading that there are no potential safety drawbacks to a weapon with a 5 pound trigger, no manual safeties, and a disassembly procedure that requires a trigger pull. I am sick of reading that Hydra-Shoks are the bestest bullets EVER. I am sick of reading the musings of gunshop law experts who argue that the castle doctrine allows the legal use of anchor shots. I am sick of reading that a Kel-Tec .32 is more than enough gun for any situation. I am sick of reading that white lights are just going to get you shot, that tritium sights are completely unnecessary on a carry gun, and that lasers are useless toys. I am sick of reading that red dot sights are just "gadgets" that people just buy to look cool. I am sick of reading that a 5'3" female should buy a Sig P226 as a carry gun because that's what the SEALs use. I am sick of reading that it is impossible to reliably and comfortably conceal anything bigger than a NAA mini revolver on a daily basis. I am sick of reading that anybody can shoot like Rob Leatham if they have a trick handgun. I am sick of reading that people will be supremely accurate and at the top of their game in a gunfight. I am sick of reading that if you need more than 5 shots you shouldn't be in the fight.
I am especially sick of seeing people pronounce that people don't "need" a weapon built to the quality of a Colt 6920, a genuine Aimpoint sight, or a flashlight that can actually be depended on to function unless they are fast-roping out of Blackhawk helicopters and responding to questions about what they do with "That's classified."
IF someone is savvy enough to know what they are buying and understands the costs and benefits of the 500 dollar AR and still wants one, rock on. Buy it. They obviously know what they are doing and why they are doing it....and they probably aren't the ones asking the bloody questions in the first place.
If, however, someone comes online (like lots of people do) confused by the sheer number of options out there and trying to navigate through the greenish-brown bullshit haze that envelops the world of firearms to the point where the stink permeates everything, then they deserve a reasonable answer...and those who can't provide it should have the decency to kindly shut the **** up.
Holy shit.
10/10
<ctrl-c> <ctrl-v> for next time this horseshit pops up
I don’t know squat about AR’s, I’ve been a hunter, shooter and gun geek for over 50 years and I just decided I want one.
Originally I was going to go with a Rock River/Bushmaster because the guy’s on one of the Predator hunting websites like them, they shoot them, use and abuse them, hand load and bench rest them and post the results. Most of the guy’s are thrilled with theirs, couldn’t be happier.
Of course most are the “Varmint” style and don’t have flash hiders and other “tactical” stuff and have longer, heavier barrels, with long range optics… different types of usage.
I want mine to be able to do all of the above and more…or at least most of it. Heck at $1000+ for a basic, good quality gun it should, shouldn’t it?
Then I need at least another $1000 for other stuff, including at least 1000 rounds to get started. So if I can pick up a carbine and save $350 on a Del-ton, Double Star or what have you that goes a long ways towards the other stuff. The Chart and all the other info on this site, (I’ve only scratched the surface) gives me a ton more info to help me make an intelligent decision.
So not knowing squat the Chart helps, it might cause me to cuss and whine but I’m glad you guy’s put it together. I get a kick out of some of the comments on the other websites, Moses and the Bible are good.
I’m a believer in cry only once…so, I’m leaning towards a BCM 16” Middy, not sure if Standard, CHF or Stainless, I like the black stainless, (not in stock at the moment) coupled to a BCM lower. It’s gong to run me $1000-$1100.
So…thanks again for the time and effort put into the free information!
SWATcop556
02-04-10, 19:11
No, because the rules forbid excessive profanity and making a post that just repeats the F word over and over and over again would be frowned upon.
But your a Mod..........:D
Do it for the kids!
SWATcop556
02-04-10, 19:14
I agree.
Once again your missing the point of the chart and why it is a useful source of info when making a decision.
Thomas M-4
02-04-10, 19:16
The Russians even stole the toilets out of the barracks, but they didn't want the Bushies b/c their intel had picked up on THE CHART!
I see what looks to be 6 saw's in that pile:mad:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Georgia/1447560.jpg
I know this has been repeated on here probably a thousand times, BUT READ THE CHART BEFORE BUYING AN AR, or you will be severely disappointed in your purchase if you plan on using it for more than shooting dirt.
I, like many others, went about it the wrong way. I bought a rifle because I was told they were all the same, fell for the bait and then I discovered this site. I now stand to lose about $200 now if I sell my lower tier AR and get a more reliable weapon, but that is what I am trying to do right now.
KalashniKEV
02-05-10, 08:06
I see what looks to be 6 saw's in that pile:mad:
And that's really the only sad part b/c Bushmaster ranks low on the chart and there isn't one out for Columbia FN SAWs/ Herstal Minimis yet...
:)
ForTehNguyen
02-05-10, 08:19
I never read the chart before buying my ARs, after I read about and compared BCM (again without the chart) I stuck with them
Creating something like the chart is a recipe for fanboys and brand butthurting, so I did not partake in the festivities
Creating something like the chart is a recipe for fanboys and brand butthurting, so I did not partake in the festivities
I would like to hear some elaboration on this part, without all the internet-isms.
RogerinTPA
02-05-10, 10:45
I never read the chart before buying my ARs, after I read about and compared BCM (again without the chart) I stuck with them
Creating something like the chart is a recipe for fanboys and brand butthurting, so I did not partake in the festivities
What people fail to realize is it is simply a collection of information of similar products. Granted it has been used as a gauge of superiority/elitism by immature individuals, and... has caused a staunch defense of lesser products for folks who didn't do their research, or pre-chart, on many gun forums. Some folks take great pride in their personal possessions, good or not so good. But terms like "fanboy" is unwarranted. It is simply a collection "accurate" data, and a tremendous aid in helping someone purchase wisely, without doing months of research, or relying on someones (brother, in-law, gun store clerk, fellow cop/military, gun forums) uninformed opinions.
Outlander Systems
02-05-10, 13:28
What The Chart did for me, is show me where my weapon systems were lacking.
This allowed me to purchase a punch to stake my endplate.
Sometimes you don't know what you don't know.
Well NC, since you're the only entrant, and even if you weren't just for the shear volume of your photoshops, PM me your address and whether you take a L or an XL and I'll send you a T-shirt.
Rob,
Is The Chart revisited periodically to determine whether the listed manufacturers have made changes to their specifications? Have you had any manufacturers contact you to advise you of changes? Just curious.
Rob,
Is The Chart revisited periodically to determine whether the listed manufacturers have made changes to their specifications? Have you had any manufacturers contact you to advise you of changes? Just curious.
I am not Rob but I know he is continuously updating the chart. If you see a change that should be made I am sure he would be happy to hear from you.
Rob,
Is The Chart revisited periodically to determine whether the listed manufacturers have made changes to their specifications? Have you had any manufacturers contact you to advise you of changes? Just curious.
I have. It usually doesn't go so well. Sometimes they send me a phone number and want me to call, which I will not do because then I don't have a record. All they have to do is email me, with pictures, and I make the changes. Although I generally prefer to examine new examples that show up at matches and classes for myself.
More often it's someone that owns one brand or another and they want to tell me about how their version has all the right features and therefore the Chart is wrong.
The six digit number you see on the Chart in the corner are a date code showing the last date of revision.
Outlander Systems
02-05-10, 21:31
Well NC, since you're the only entrant, and even if you weren't just for the shear volume of your photoshops, PM me your address and whether you take a L or an XL and I'll send you a T-shirt.
YEEEEESSSSSSSSS!!!!
This has to be one of the best threads ever here - beats the peacenic boat sinking by hitting the whaling ship and the group of terrorist blowing themselves up trying to plant explosives on the "Short" bus.
Being an elitest I like seeing what I have compared to what others dont ;) just kidding.
The chart is a tool/reference. Unfortunately it really has to be accompanied with some guidance, other than cousin Earl who has and Olympic and states "its great cuz goes bang most of the time" This is the Forum that can help quite a bit.
Past that Navigating Collapse - this is fricken histerical!
And John Wayne - dude - cut down on the coffee.
I have. It usually doesn't go so well. Sometimes they send me a phone number and want me to call, which I will not do because then I don't have a record. All they have to do is email me, with pictures, and I make the changes. Although I generally prefer to examine new examples that show up at matches and classes for myself.
More often it's someone that owns one brand or another and they want to tell me about how their version has all the right features and therefore the Chart is wrong.
The six digit number you see on the Chart in the corner are a date code showing the last date of revision.
Excellent! Thanks!
organdonor
02-05-10, 23:26
Well NC, since you're the only entrant, and even if you weren't just for the shear volume of your photoshops, PM me your address and whether you take a L or an XL and I'll send you a T-shirt.Go ahead and send him 2. he can drive the other over to me.
NC, those are some excellent, comical photos.
people dont have to believe the chart.
people dont even have the read the the chart.
one can simply read Rob's "Explanation of Desirable Features" and do their own damn work. Rob just did the work for us.
I learned more about the M4 by reading that then thousands of pages elsewhere...
Don Robison
02-06-10, 10:01
http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/8325/cautionchart.jpg
Had to save that one.
The truth and elitism are not the same.
It's like political correctness, where you have to actually deny the truth to be politically correct.
So if you refrence the chart, you are an elitist, but if you ignore the chart, what are you?
I don't know if I stated my thoughts clearly, other than my first sentence.
I like the Bible photo too.
In a way, the chart...excuse me, The Chart is sort of like the Bible in that, I once was lost, but after reading it, I have seen the light. I only wish I had seen The Chart before I made my purchase (BM). Like the Bible, The Chart has lead me to make some changes. I now have a BCM BCG residing inside my BM. Like having Jesus reside inside me, which has improved my life drastically, the change I made to my BM, has improved it drastically too, I hope. Now, I won't need to worry about keeping the round count down in order to preserve it's lifespan. What should I do to it next?
I'm not comparing The Chart to The Bible, I just thought about the similarities.:cool:
SWATcop556
02-06-10, 21:30
That's some deep shit man. I just tried to argue that Jesus is like a good BCG with my wife and she just glared at me. She's catholic. :D
I think she's just still mad about the time I found the Holy Handgrenade during Mass.
I like the Bible photo too.
In a way, the chart...excuse me, The Chart is sort of like the Bible in that, I once was lost, but after reading it, I have seen the light. I only wish I had seen The Chart before I made my purchase (BM). Like the Bible, The Chart has lead me to make some changes. I now have a BCM BCG residing inside my BM. Like having Jesus reside inside me, which has improved my life drastically, the change I made to my BM, has improved it drastically too, I hope. Now, I won't need to worry about keeping the round count down in order to preserve it's lifespan. What should I do to it next?
I'm not comparing The Chart to The Bible, I just thought about the similarities.:cool:
LOL. Yeah I knew I should not have posted that. It was a poor attempt at satire. My apologies to the wife!
Let's put it this way. Jesus saves! BCM parts are good for BM AR's.
The truth and elitism are not the same.
It's like political correctness, where you have to actually deny the truth to be politically correct.
So if you refrence the chart, you are an elitist, but if you ignore the chart, what are you?
I don't know if I stated my thoughts clearly, other than my first sentence.
Truth and elitistism can often go hand in hand. From Wikipedia:
Elitism is the belief or attitude that those individuals who are considered members of the elite — a select group of people with outstanding personal abilities, intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes — are those whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight or those who view their own views as so; whose views and/or actions are most likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities or wisdom render them especially fit to govern.
It's not about right or wrong. It's about whether you come across as a pompous ass in the process of communication. How you come across to others on the internet is entirely within your control. Unlike in person, you can backspace, delete, or edit your comments here. If you come across as arrogant, it's either a lack of command with the written word, or exactly what you were going for. Either way, nobody likes an arrogant guy on the internet. Unless of course he agrees with you. ;)
What people fail to realize is it is simply a collection of information of similar products. Granted it has been used as a gauge of superiority/elitism by immature individuals, and... has caused a staunch defense of lesser products for folks who didn't do their research, or pre-chart, on many gun forums. Some folks take great pride in their personal possessions, good or not so good. But terms like "fanboy" is unwarranted. It is simply a collection "accurate" data, and a tremendous aid in helping someone purchase wisely, without doing months of research, or relying on someones (brother, in-law, gun store clerk, fellow cop/military, gun forums) uninformed opinions.
You hit the nail on the head, but I'm going to disagree with your "fanboy" comment. There's a ton of guys, on other sites, that run around like five year olds, saying they have the best AR because of the chart. What makes them fanboys, is that they don't know shit about firearms and are only repeating what they've read and heard. These fanboys inevitably own Colt 6920s and a Glock (because it's the best handgun in the world). According to the fanboys, all you need is a Colt AR and a Glock and you're the cats ass - everything else is sub-par. Again, this is usually being spouted by guys that simply "parrot" what they're read/heard and have a very limited knowledge of firearms. I'm betting that most of these guys also own Patriots or Colts jerseys.
I don't have anything against Colt/Glock as they both manufacture fine firearms. I also don't mean to offend anyone that owns them. I just get sick of hearing from newbies, that they're the only guns in the world worth owning.
It's not about right or wrong. It's about whether you come across as a pompous ass in the process of communication. How you come across to others on the internet is entirely within your control. Unlike in person, you can backspace, delete, or edit your comments here. If you come across as arrogant, it's either a lack of command with the written word, or exactly what you were going for. Either way, nobody likes an arrogant guy on the internet. Unless of course he agrees with you. ;)
Nonsense.
Perception is all in the eye of the beholder. If I go over to thehighroad.com and respond to their weekly "what's the best AR?" post with a simple "Colt, BCM, Noveske, LMT, Daniel Defense" with a link to the E-of-F and The Chart, great hysteria and mass wailing will ensure from those that already own products shown on the right-hand side of the Chart. They won't even read the E-of-F to find out WHY their pet may be less than ideal, they'll skip right to the bottom, view the Chart, and get upset, only to return and heap insult and accusation on me (and/or whoever else posts the same thing).
Brevity is often seen as elitism or arrogance when viewed their an ignorant lens.
Do I know that this will happen and do it anyway? Of course I do. But that is not elitism. I give people the boat, the rod, the line, the bait, the net, and the bucket and point out the choicest spot in the lake. They can either go get dinner or sit on the shore and cry.
What I have found (and I've been doing this for a little while now) is that these people are going to get upset no matter how much I sugar coat it. Some people are going to grab up the supplies and start pulling for the fishin' hole, others are going to sit and bitch. It matters not one iota how it's presented. Not one.
I can't find it now but there was a thread here a month or so back where a new member asked for opinions, got them, initially got upset at the replies as he had already ordered (IIRC) an RRA, but eventually came to see the light and eventually apologized and thanked the membership for steering him right. I wish I could find it now as I'd send the link to all new members that come here and get upset when the advice they receive doesn't match their preconceived notions.
So now I can control how other people percieve me based on giving people the best tool available?
The chart has changed the game, this sight has changed the game.
One of samples and peoples useless opinions are now confronted with undisputable facts and they can't handle it.
I am not an elistist, and I damn sure am not politically correct.
I prefer to live in reality, no matter how unpleasant it may be at times.
Nonsense.
Perception is all in the eye of the beholder.
I don't think you really believe this. You and most here are too articulate for that BS. What you say and how you say it has a huge effect on how you are precieved.
That said, people can certainly take things the wrong way. The internet has something to do with that. The point remains, however. Whether you're responding to someone or chiming in on a topic, you have the chance to reread and edit what you write. You have no excuse for coming across as an internet badass/elitist/pompous prick. Unless you want to.
If I go over to thehighroad.com and respond to their weekly "what's the best AR?" post with a simple "Colt, BCM, Noveske, LMT, Daniel Defense" with a link to the E-of-F and The Chart, great hysteria and mass wailing will ensure from those that already own products shown on the right-hand side of the Chart. They won't even read the E-of-F to find out WHY their pet may be less than ideal, they'll skip right to the bottom, view the Chart, and get upset, only to return and heap insult and accusation on me (and/or whoever else posts the same thing).
Brevity is often seen as elitism or arrogance when viewed their an ignorant lens..
You're being a little black and white here. If you only say exactly what you've quoted above, you've got a point. But you and I both know that is not your style. You're gonna bait and lead one of them into saying something and slam them for it. While there is nothing wrong with that, drop the martyr routine. Some people get upset with you because of the words you choose, sentence structure, or emphasis you use. It's the internet, they have nothing else to go on. That and smileys. ;)
I'm glad you bring up brevity. You're right too, it can come across as elitist sometimes, but I'd ask what it is you have to do that requires brevity? You're sitting behind the computer talking about guns. If you're pressed for time, why the hell are you on an internet gun forum? Get a Blackberry, manage your time better, or come back later when you have time to draft a decent response.
Do I know that this will happen and do it anyway? Of course I do. But that is not elitism. I give people the boat, the rod, the line, the bait, the net, and the bucket and point out the choicest spot in the lake. They can either go get dinner or sit on the shore and cry.
You know more than most people do about the AR platform. You know you know more too. You're proud of the hard work you've put in research and the profiency you have. You don't think that seeps into your advice sometimes? That's where people get the idea of elitism, whether you want to admit it or not.
What I have found (and I've been doing this for a little while now) is that these people are going to get upset no matter how much I sugar coat it. Some people are going to grab up the supplies and start pulling for the fishin' hole, others are going to sit and bitch. It matters not one iota how it's presented. Not one.
I can't find it now but there was a thread here a month or so back where a new member asked for opinions, got them, initially got upset at the replies as he had already ordered (IIRC) an RRA, but eventually came to see the light and eventually apologized and thanked the membership for steering him right. I wish I could find it now as I'd send the link to all new members that come here and get upset when the advice they receive doesn't match their preconceived notions.
I disagree. I'm sure you run into people on the internet who just wanna argue with you because they wanna argue with you. Avoid these people. But you cannot possibly believe that you can talk to people anyway you want to and it doesn't have any effect on how they take your information.
I remember the thread you're talking about. It's certainly a good thing that the OP was able to come out on the other side more educated, but I'd ask if you (or a lot of others here) would have been able to hear the same responses and manage to not get a little pissed. I know, you wouldn't have asked the question. You would have done research, research, research. Ok, but you can't tell me you like it when people treat you differently than you'd like to be treated, whether in person or virtually. I'm just guessing here, but you wouldn't have reacted the same way the OP did in that thread. Neither would I.
Outlander Systems
02-07-10, 11:51
As a sample of one:
After getting my first "real" AR, my previous attempts at ownership resulted in a Bushmaster M17 Bullpup and a Bushmaster 97S Pistol, I scored a Bushmaster Modular Carbine.
After looking on the internet for information regarding post-factory tweaks, I stumbled on a site called M4Carbine.net. I trolled for a little while, and stumbled upon "The Chart".
Instead of sitting in a state of denial, and wondering why my castle nut worked itself loose, I used the chart as a reference tool/what-to-fix.
My initial reaction, upon learning that Bushmaster had rooked me for the tune of $1500, was quite simply, "FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-UCK!".
If I would have known, prior to buying that POS, that there were superior options for less money, I would have saved a lot of headache and hassle.
The Chart really tells a lot about a person's character in the form of their reaction to it, as well as a subtle indicator of their real round-count. ;)
RogerinTPA
02-07-10, 11:57
Truth and elitistism can often go hand in hand. From Wikipedia:
It's not about right or wrong. It's about whether you come across as a pompous ass in the process of communication. How you come across to others on the internet is entirely within your control. Unlike in person, you can backspace, delete, or edit your comments here. If you come across as arrogant, it's either a lack of command with the written word, or exactly what you were going for. Either way, nobody likes an arrogant guy on the internet. Unless of course he agrees with you. ;)
Agreed. For folks like that, they do nothing but turn people off, despite what they have to contribute. I simply ignore them, and determine whether the info presented, has any value worth assimilating, then drive on despite the presumed arrogance displayed.
I can't find it now but there was a thread here a month or so back where a new member asked for opinions, got them, initially got upset at the replies as he had already ordered (IIRC) an RRA, but eventually came to see the light and eventually apologized and thanked the membership for steering him right. I wish I could find it now as I'd send the link to all new members that come here and get upset when the advice they receive doesn't match their preconceived notions.
I think you want this one Rob https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=42353
Outlander Systems
02-07-10, 12:06
The stupidity never ends over at my redneck forum:
Dude:
Help on AR 15 laser sight:
I bought a S&W M&P 15X and want a laser sight to mount on one of the rails. Does anyone have any ideas on a good kind to get? It is hard to just pick one out on the internet without knowing anything about them. Any advise would be great.
Me:
Do you have any type of primary optic? Lasers really only help on handguns, in the same fashion an RDS serves on a rifle.
I'd recommend against green lasers for any weapon intended for social use, and just in general. The green lasers are extremely bad for your eyesight. As well, they are tactically unsound; the beam leads right back to your weapon.
The most effective usage of visible lasers has been illustrated in Iraq and A-Stan; intimidating the locals. If you're running a magnified optic, I could see some meritous use of the laser for a short-range secondary aiming device. Other than that, they are almost useless. YMMV.
Dude:
I'm using it for hog hunting, killed a few already with the AR and just thought it would be neat to have a dot on the hogs head when recording the kill. I'm not sure why your considering them useless (thelandlord), they are great for getting a quick aim on a running hog, or whatever your shooting.
Now, let's examine the bolded statement, and go back to this:
It is hard to just pick one out on the internet without knowing anything about them.
Am I taking crazy pills? I happen to own a green laser that I'd had on a Beretta CX4, and quite frankly, I found it to suck ass. It was a range plinker, but, it sucked ass. Dude, I am in a foul mood today.
I think you want this one Rob https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=42353
Thank you. Added it to my favorites.
I don't think you really believe this. You and most here are too articulate for that BS. What you say and how you say it has a huge effect on how you are precieved.
That said, people can certainly take things the wrong way. The internet has something to do with that. The point remains, however. Whether you're responding to someone or chiming in on a topic, you have the chance to reread and edit what you write. You have no excuse for coming across as an internet badass/elitist/pompous prick. Unless you want to.
You're being a little black and white here. If you only say exactly what you've quoted above, you've got a point. But you and I both know that is not your style. You're gonna bait and lead one of them into saying something and slam them for it. While there is nothing wrong with that, drop the maytyr routine. Some people get upset with you because of the words you choose, sentence structure, or emphasis you use. It's the internet, they have nothing else to go on. That and smileys. ;)
I'm glad you bring up brevity. You're right too, it can come across as elitist sometimes, but I'd ask what it is you have to do that requires brevity? You're sitting behind the computer talking about guns. If you're pressed for time, why the hell are you on an internet gun forum? Get a Blackberry, manage your time better, or come back later when you have time to draft a decent response.
You know more than most people do about the AR platform. You know you know more too. You're proud of the hard work you've put in research and the profiency you have. You don't think that seeps into your advice sometimes? That's where people get the idea of elitism, whether you want to admit it or not.
I disagree. I'm sure you run into people on the internet who just wanna argue with you because they wanna argue with you. Avoid these people. But you cannot possibly believe that you can talk to people anyway you want to and it doesn't have any effect on how they take your information.
I remember the thread you're talking about. It's certainly a good thing that the OP was able to come out on the other side more educated, but I'd ask if you (or a lot of others here) would have been able to hear the same responses and manage to not get a little pissed. I know, you wouldn't have asked the question. You would have done research, research, research. Ok, but you can't tell me you like it when people treat you differently than you'd like to be treated, whether in person or virtually. I'm just guessing here, but you wouldn't have reacted the same way the OP did in that thread. Neither would I.
Spare the the attempt at analysis. You want analysis?
You've been on this "be nice" kick for nearly a year now, entirely because you've found no other way to justify your poor choice of a DPMS. You've appointed yourself champion of the dumbasses and used this whole "be nice" collection of horse-shit as a means to an end. It looks like your posts on this subject have been removed the the Chart thread and (thankfully) you can now have this outlet for this nonsense. You side with these people because you are one of these people. You read all of the posts through the tinted lenses of someone else that made a bad, uniformed purchase.
Frankly you've done nothing that I've seen but make yourself exhibit A of why nobody should bother with your suggestion of being nice, because it's clearly a lost cause.
Spare the the attempt at analysis. You want analysis?
You've been on this "be nice" kick for nearly a year now, entirely because you've found no other way to justify your poor choice of a DPMS. You've appointed yourself champion of the dumbasses and used this whole "be nice" collection of horse-shit as a means to an end. It looks like your posts on this subject have been removed the the Chart thread and (thankfully) you can now have this outlet for this nonsense. You side with these people because you are one of these people. You read all of the posts through the tinted lenses of someone else that made a bad, uniformed purchase.
Frankly you've done nothing that I've seen but make yourself exhibit A of why nobody should bother with your suggestion of being nice, because it's clearly a lost cause.
It seems I've hit a nerve.
I've been on this "be nice" kick because of my own experience, not because I have an interest in defending any brand or my own poor choices in the past.
I did indeed purchase a DPMS some time ago. Several factors were at work, but one was I simply did not know any better. I did some searching, found this forum, and the chart. I was skeptical at first, but soon found it to be a useful tool in figuring out who does what and why. It was one factor that lead to me placing an order with LMT. So smile Rob, your chart did exactly what you made it to do. Help a newcomer quickly cut through the propaganda and internet nonsense and make a more informed purchase.
But in the course of searching, reading, and absorbing all I could, I run into posts by people who can only be described as self-important and elitist. They were often right, but were such jackasses about it that I could see exactly why someone would be turned off. Contrast that with many others who are the opposite; knowledgable, well spoken (written?), and to the point, without being a complete prick. So make it into whatever you want, but being an ass is NOT synonymous with being knowledgable.
Wanna guess where I think you fall in those two categories, Rob?
I don't think any more de-evolution is necessary in this thread. :)
I don't understand the controversy of The Chart. I didn't find anything in it that said "you should buy this rifle." It's just a straight up list of what companies have what features.
The Chart - Bunching panties on TOS since (whenever it was made).
Then again, I don't think they needed a chart for that to happen.
The "chart" is full of good infomation. What people do with the information is their decision. I know my reference to it has caused drama. It is probably a pride thing too. When you have been using, selling or suggesting a product for years or decadaes and you find a "chart" out there that points out the weak points it has gotta hurt.
mkmckinley
02-08-10, 05:46
I'm one of the guys who bought a Delton/DPMS and then saw the chart a year or two later. I always knew my DPMS was a "hobby gun" and pretty much considered it a range toy but I didn't understand exactly why that was. The chart taught me why. Far from being resentful, I was fascinated. I did a lot of research on my own, ended up with a Noveske and couldn't be happier. I feel nothing but gratitude toward Rob for putting the chart together ad keeping it up to date.
<not directed at anyone in particular> I can't relate to these guys that take factual information and emotionalize it to the point that some have. Your rifle either has chrome lining or it doesn't, you bolt's either shot peened or it's not. Pick the features you want and buy them, quality only hurts once.
DeputyMend
02-09-10, 00:12
The chart saved me a bunch of money because I never had to waste it on the Del ton I was going to buy. I am happy with my LMT uppered frankenstein!
It seems I've hit a nerve.
I've been on this "be nice" kick because of my own experience, not because I have an interest in defending any brand or my own poor choices in the past.
I did indeed purchase a DPMS some time ago. Several factors were at work, but one was I simply did not know any better. I did some searching, found this forum, and the chart. I was skeptical at first, but soon found it to be a useful tool in figuring out who does what and why. It was one factor that lead to me placing an order with LMT. So smile Rob, your chart did exactly what you made it to do. Help a newcomer quickly cut through the propaganda and internet nonsense and make a more informed purchase.
But in the course of searching, reading, and absorbing all I could, I run into posts by people who can only be described as self-important and elitist. They were often right, but were such jackasses about it that I could see exactly why someone would be turned off. Contrast that with many others who are the opposite; knowledgable, well spoken (written?), and to the point, without being a complete prick. So make it into whatever you want, but being an ass is NOT synonymous with being knowledgable.
if by "hit a nerve" you mean "droned on and on about this stupid shit long enough" then yes you have.
and according to you, in my self-important, elitist prick way of dealing with people, what is so different about the way I posted that would indicate any kind of "nerve hitting"? Isn't this the way I'm alleged to always deal with people?
What you fail to grasp, here and elsewhere, is that I don't care if the sensitive nancies like yourself have trouble with my delivery. Some people get it, some people don't. The great thing is that it doesn't matter, and by your own admission in spite of my obnoxious way of addressing people even you managed to get something out of it. So whether they whine, moan, kvetch, complain, implore me to "be nice" or whatever ultimately it doesn't matter. Good information has a way of coming out in the end.
I still think it's as much how I'm saying it as what I'm saying. People don't like being confronted with the fact that they bought out of ignorance, or that their preconceived notions about a thing were way off base. Could I sugar coat it? Sure. Could I be nice about it? I guess so, but the outcome at the end of the day is exactly the same. EVEN those people that whine about how mean I was to them, or about how rude I came across, eventually get it. Or don't. I have good friends that have read the Chart and the E-of-F and STILL cling to their misbeliefs. These are people that allegedly like me, I hang out with on a regular basis, and if anyone ever got the sweet delivery it's them, and they STILL don't buy it.
Delivery means nothing and is colored by the perception of the reader.
Wanna guess where I think you fall in those two categories, Rob?
Well let's see, according to you I post the way I do on purpose, evidently with the intent of being an elitist prick, so wanna guess how much I mus then care which category you think I fall in?
and frankly if you think I'm a prick now, you should have seen my posts when I didn't know shit back in the arfcom days. :D Many of them sounded a lot like yours. ;)
if by "hit a nerve" you mean "droned on and on about this stupid shit long enough" then yes you have.
and according to you, in my self-important, elitist prick way of dealing with people, what is so different about the way I posted that would indicate any kind of "nerve hitting"? Isn't this the way I'm alleged to always deal with people?
Yes. It's your schtick. You've admitted as much.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=45913&page=2
I know I have a public personae for being leading or condescending
I'm quite sure you choose your words to certain people here in an effort to keep that up. Either that or you like to run your head into a brick wall over and over again.
What you fail to grasp, here and elsewhere, is that I don't care if the sensitive nancies like yourself have trouble with my delivery. Some people get it, some people don't. The great thing is that it doesn't matter, and by your own admission in spite of my obnoxious way of addressing people even you managed to get something out of it. So whether they whine, moan, kvetch, complain, implore me to "be nice" or whatever ultimately it doesn't matter. Good information has a way of coming out in the end.
I still think it's as much how I'm saying it as what I'm saying. People don't like being confronted with the fact that they bought out of ignorance, or that their preconceived notions about a thing were way off base. Could I sugar coat it? Sure. Could I be nice about it? I guess so, but the outcome at the end of the day is exactly the same. EVEN those people that whine about how mean I was to them, or about how rude I came across, eventually get it. Or don't. I have good friends that have read the Chart and the E-of-F and STILL cling to their misbeliefs. These are people that allegedly like me, I hang out with on a regular basis, and if anyone ever got the sweet delivery it's them, and they STILL don't buy it.
Delivery means nothing and is colored by the perception of the reader.
First, is the bolded portion a typo by you? Freudian slip? Assmuming not...
We're going to have to agree to disagree. I think you're rationalizing being a prick on the internet because you think it's some sort of an asset. Or you just like to do it. You think I cry at sunsets, or something... I dunno.
We can keep having this "Yes you do, No I don't" argument till the cows come home. Whatever gets you through the day is cool with me, Rob. My point was not to change your attitude but to point out that the "butthurt" you sometimes encounter as a proprietor of the truth can sometimes be the way in which the truth is dealt and not the truth itself. If that's not your experience, cool. It certainly is mine, and hearing some of the mods and SME's here who consistantly give solid advice and remain polite is why I learned what I did. Not because of pricks. I don't like pricks. Do you?
Well let's see, according to you I post the way I do on purpose, evidently with the intent of being an elitist prick, so wanna guess how much I mus then care which category you think I fall in?
and frankly if you think I'm a prick now, you should have seen my posts when I didn't know shit back in the arfcom days. :D Many of them sounded a lot like yours. ;)
This is excellent. Your use of the "wink" at the end of that softenend your prickish tone just enough to not completely piss me off first thing in the morning. You're right, good information does come out in the end.
:D
lol rob_s, you tried to do a good deed and share the knowledge, and ended up with a bullseye on your back and forehead. I appreciate the effort and ability to learn.
I was fortunate on my path to building my first M4, at having a couple very experienced mentors that didn't care about names or looks; their first priorities were high levels of dependability and function, and their end goals were to have combat level rifles, that they could rely on without hesitation. They didn't tell me what to buy, they told me what to look for and what to expect; the choice was mine after that.
You tried to do the same thing, in explaining the differences. Don't sweat it. Just sorry that you are taking grief for trying to help folks out. For every person that finds a reason to belittle your effort, there are at least 10 more that appreciate the work you put into it. On the flip side, reading some of the arguements against the chart are nearly good enough to find their way in the humor thread.
Outlander Systems
02-21-10, 14:06
Victory...
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/6149/shirtif.jpg
...is mine!!!!!!!!!!
The "chart" is full of good infomation. What people do with the information is their decision. I know my reference to it has caused drama. It is probably a pride thing too. When you have been using, selling or suggesting a product for years or decadaes and you find a "chart" out there that points out the weak points it has gotta hurt.+1 to the info comment.
The nice thing about the chart is that it does NOT tell you what to buy, it simply lists what you get for the money you spend. It took a lot of time and effort to assemble, and even more patience afterward when a lot of numbnuts took it out of context, deliberately and accidentally, and gave Rob_S a lot of grief over it.
Rob_S is to be commended for enduring all of the above and providing such an amazingly easy tool that anyone can use (even the numbnuts, if they'd simply unbunch their panties).
Also, +1 one to the pride comment. Too many people want to ask what seems to be a simple question and too many other people spout for a simple answer. Both sides take a digital approach: Life is either ones or zeroes; on or off; best or POS. When someone asks, "Which is best?", someone else responds, "Colt, BCM, Noveske, Daniel Defense, etc."
It is not that simple. It depends on the intended use.
I know lots of people who believe 5.56/223 is inadequate for defense. They want an AR-15 for busting prairie dogs, coyotes, tin cans, and paper targets. Basically, a fun gun they would never dream of using for hard usage. For those purposes, something on the right side of the chart makes more sense. Using the chart can help you determine the features you get and what you'll pay for them. If you find something that suits your needs and costs less than other offerings, you are good to go.
If you want something that could also serve in a self-defense role, something in the middle of the chart might better suit your purposes. You might not get a 4150 CVM steel barrel, but considering that M1 Garand barrels were made of 4140, you should be fine so long as you don't intend to play Omega Man and go running around town like some sort of - brrrrrrrp - exterminator.
If you envision really hard usage, something on the left side will better suit your purposes. The chart provides good info for making an informed decision.
So the chart is not really a judge of what is best and what is a POS. It is neutral, like any good tool. It can help you reach an informed decision, but it does not make the decision for you. It's the Joe Friday of the AR world -- "Just the facts." Make of those facts what you will, but don't make of them what they are not.
JBecker 72
03-07-10, 12:52
LMAO.
quoted from TOS :rolleyes:
"It's my money, they're my gunz, I don't care what the "chart" says, RRA makes the best AR rifle available. If someone wants to "tweek" one for combat, they are free to do so."
He's entitled to his opinion.
Ignorance is bliss. The Chart brought me out of bliss into reality. I'm thankful for The Chart and for Rob making The Chart.
You know, I'm a newbie and wish I had seen the chart.
I spent years in the military and shot thousands of rounds through the 16 so when I went to buy my AR I ass-u-me d that it would be as reliable as what I was used to and now I'm chasing a feed problem that I might have avoided if I had come to the forum first!!
I'm not interested in how it shoots at 500 yards, I have an M1A if I want to do that but you guys have a huge amount of experience that is really useful for us new guys and if you can keep it in an accessible format it would be very helpful.
Just my $.02
And when I figure out my feed issues I'll let you all know..
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.