View Full Version : What's so great about the BCM Gunfighter?
organdonor
02-01-10, 15:45
It's machined from billet? Is that it? Does that really make it any more reliable? The dimensions can't be any heftier or it wouldn't fit.
billet is weaker than a forging, so that wouldn't be very productive.
Have you looked at it at their site or read any of the discussions here? There is plenty of info there.
It's machined from billet? Is that it? Does that really make it any more reliable? The dimensions can't be any heftier or it wouldn't fit.
Jay Cunningham
02-01-10, 15:55
It's machined from billet? Is that it? Does that really make it any more reliable? The dimensions can't be any heftier or it wouldn't fit.
Do you understand the concept of support hand manipulations and the desire to maintain the master grip on the carbine?
Have you looked at it at their site or read any of the discussions here?
No fair asking questions you already know the answer to! :p
organdonor
02-01-10, 16:00
billet is weaker than a forging, so that wouldn't be very productive.hmmm. i'd always been under the impression that billet was stronger. never done any research but everyone gets so excited about Larue, Spikes, Mega, etc billet uppers and lowers; I figured they must be better... not to mention manufacturers usually charge more for them. So, if it's weaker what's the benefit?
Have you looked at it at their site or read any of the discussions here? There is plenty of info there.Yes, I've read the specs. Nothing stands out there... except the fact that it's billet -- that's why I'm asking what makes it "A Charging Handle for the 21st Century"?
Do you understand the concept of support hand manipulations and the desire to maintain the master grip on the carbine?Yes. And there are other charging handles with large latches. I'm wondering if there's something I'm missing here. I thought I'd pinpointed it while under the assumption that billet was a sturdier material -- turns out that it isn't(learned something today).
hmmm. i'd always been under the impression that billet was stronger. never done any research but everyone gets so excited about Larue, Spikes, Mega, etc billet uppers and lowers; I figured they must be better... not to mention manufacturers usually charge more for them. So, if it's weaker what's the benefit?
Read more. Manufacturers make billet lowers because they CAN'T make forged, because the forges to make lower receivers are HUGE! The alleged benefit is that by doing all the fab with machines instead of forging they can be more accurate but I don't believe this to be true, or an issue if it is true.
Most people buy billet lowers because the don't know better, it says "billet" on it, and they like the looks of the beefier lower.
BTW, the reason billet lowers are beefier is because it's weaker, meaning it has to be thicker to be as strong.
Thomas M-4
02-01-10, 16:09
hmmm. i'd always been under the impression that billet was stronger. never done any research but everyone gets so excited about Larue, Spikes, Mega, etc billet uppers and lowers; I figured they must be better... not to mention manufacturers usually charge more for them. So, if it's weaker what's the benefit?Yes, I've read the specs. Nothing stands out there... except the fact that it's billet -- that's why I'm asking what makes it "A Charging Handle for the 21st Century"?Yes. And there are other charging handles with large latches. I'm wondering if there's something I'm missing here. I thought I'd pinpointed it while under the assumption that billet was a sturdier material -- turns out that it isn't(learned something today).
Common misconception forgings are stronger. Changing a profile on a part is easier on a CNC cut billet part than paying for a new forging die.
Jay Cunningham
02-01-10, 16:09
Do you see how the actual lever is supported at the rear of the handle and how it uses a stronger roll pin?
organdonor
02-01-10, 16:12
Do you see how the actual lever is supported at the rear of the handle and how it uses a stronger roll pin?alright. I feel stupid for not having read past the specs list on their site now. :o
John_Wayne777
02-01-10, 16:16
And there are other charging handles with large latches.
...that all require putting a lot of torque on a very small roll pin that frankly was never intended to take that much pressure. The Gunfighter design redirects that force to an area that is better able to handle the force of someone clawing at the latch because some jackoff is trying to kill them and they need to get the gun up and running again.
Jay Cunningham
02-01-10, 16:16
alright. I feel stupid for not having read past the specs list on their site now. :o
Glad I could point you in the right direction.
SWATcop556
02-01-10, 16:24
...that all require putting a lot of torque on a very small roll pin that frankly was never intended to take that much pressure. The Gunfighter design redirects that force to an area that is better able to handle the force of someone clawing at the latch because some jackoff is trying to kill them and they need to get the gun up and running again.
This is the biggest benefit. And that's coming from someone who has broken 2 GI CH and 4 PRI GB CH. Its not only the bigger latch. Its the whole design and concept of taking pressure and stress of the roll pin.
I also personally think that the feel of the actual latch is better than other offering but this is purely cosmetic.
I see Troy is coming out with an ambi model, I wonder if they will make a gunfighter in ambi, that could be pretty awesome!
CaptainDooley
02-01-10, 21:24
I emailed Paul recently and he said there are no plans to make an ambi or lefty-friendly model.
This is the biggest benefit. And that's coming from someone who has broken 2 GI CH and 4 PRI GB CH. Its not only the bigger latch. Its the whole design and concept of taking pressure and stress of the roll pin.
I also personally think that the feel of the actual latch is better than other offering but this is purely cosmetic.
You must go to the gym too much!:D
Robb Jensen
02-01-10, 22:40
You must go to the gym too much!:D
OR he's someone who shoots his guns for REAL. I've broken a few charging handles too, the original design leaves a lot to be desired. The Gunfighter is an excellent design. If view them as Z rated tires, few need them. But for those that use and need them they work as advertised.
SWATcop556
02-01-10, 22:43
You must go to the gym too much!:D
I wish. I'm just notorious for being able to break shit. I could **** up a hockey puck. :cool:
Well that sucks for us Southpaws...
Trying to sort out what may be "second best" that is lefty friendly.
Honestly, not having used a ambi; I don't know if its a must. Seems more ergonomic to grab than having to claw it ever time.
Any advice on what the better ambi version is?
woodandsteel
02-02-10, 11:18
Kind of a hijack, but for those of you who are using the BCM Gunfighter, which do you use or recommend?
I am looking at getting the Mod 4, with the medium latch. I can't find these locally to look at up close. So, my gut feeling is that I would be better served with the medium sized one. One fear that I have is that the larger latch, on the mod 3, would get caught on something.
organdonor
02-02-10, 11:28
Kind of a hijack, but for those of you who are using the BCM Gunfighter, which do you use or recommend?
I am looking at getting the Mod 4, with the medium latch. I can't find these locally to look at up close. So, my gut feeling is that I would be better served with the medium sized one. One fear that I have is that the larger latch, on the mod 3, would get caught on something.i searched the forum after making this thread and several people have had problems with the medium-sized latch pinching their hand
woodandsteel
02-02-10, 11:34
i searched the forum after making this thread and several people have had problems with the medium-sized latch pinching their hand
Ok, thank you.
Medium works for me, no pinching. Sample size: 1. That being said, the best way to determine your needs is to buy one, run it hard, and see if it works for you. If not, try the next size. Good luck.
John_Wayne777
02-02-10, 14:14
Personally I have the smaller latch version installed on my blaster because, generally speaking, I don't want a latch that's going to hang up on stuff. I haven't had any pinchy pinchy problems with it so far. I'll be using it pretty heavily in a course over the weekend. If my delicate skin is assaulted in an intolerable manner I'll post an update.
Read more. Manufacturers make billet lowers because they CAN'T make forged, because the forges to make lower receivers are HUGE! The alleged benefit is that by doing all the fab with machines instead of forging they can be more accurate but I don't believe this to be true, or an issue if it is true.
Most people buy billet lowers because the don't know better, it says "billet" on it, and they like the looks of the beefier lower.
BTW, the reason billet lowers are beefier is because it's weaker, meaning it has to be thicker to be as strong.
Is there any drawback to billet? I purchased a forged upper, it was out of spec, and I was sent a billet for my troubles. Any reason I would want to sell it and get a forged? I would not make any money, so I'd rather just keep the dam thing.
OR he's someone who shoots his guns for REAL. I've broken a few charging handles too, the original design leaves a lot to be desired. The Gunfighter is an excellent design. If view them as Z rated tires, few need them. But for those that use and need them they work as advertised.
I was just trying to be a smart a$$. :cool:
Kind of a hijack, but for those of you who are using the BCM Gunfighter, which do you use or recommend?
I am looking at getting the Mod 4, with the medium latch. I can't find these locally to look at up close. So, my gut feeling is that I would be better served with the medium sized one. One fear that I have is that the larger latch, on the mod 3, would get caught on something.
I like the Mod 3. The longer ones rest on my outer armor and unlock.
AnimalMother556
02-02-10, 17:19
Is there any drawback to billet? I purchased a forged upper, it was out of spec, and I was sent a billet for my troubles. Any reason I would want to sell it and get a forged? I would not make any money, so I'd rather just keep the dam thing.
That would depend entirely on whether or not the upper they sent you as a replacement was within spec or not. Who was the manufacturer? Honestly, I'd ditch it after a lousy experience such as that and purchase a forged upper from a reputable manufacturer. The parts are out there and good parts cost little more than not-so-good parts. You'll probably be happier with it in the long run and it will leave you with little doubt as to the long term reliability and durability of your rifle.
As for the BCM Gunfighter charging handle, I wouldn't know as I bought a PRI handle with combat latch shortly before the BCM handle was released. Story of my life, man.
I like the Mod 3. The longer ones rest on my outer armor and unlock.
I hate to be the "Net know it all" but the Mod4 is the smaller latch. This is the one I have and it is the short latch so it will not poke me in the (ample) belly.
Counter intuitive, but
Mod 3 = long latch
Mod 4 = short (or normal) latch.
I know because, I spent hours making sure I got it right before spending money (plus I just double-checked on the BCM website).
M
I hate to be the "Net know it all" but the Mod4 is the smaller latch. This is the one I have and it is the short latch so it will not poke me in the (ample) belly.
Counter intuitive, but
Mod 3 = long latch
Mod 4 = short (or normal) latch.
I know because, I spent hours making sure I got it right before spending money (plus I just double-checked on the BCM website).
M
MP, I meant mod 4. I always get them mixed up. I ordered another one and had to go back and see if I ordered the wrong one.
I see Troy is coming out with an ambi model, I wonder if they will make a gunfighter in ambi, that could be pretty awesome!
Nope, Troy gets my money as soon as theirs hits the shelf. :D
Robb Jensen
02-03-10, 20:48
It's machined from billet? Is that it? Does that really make it any more reliable? The dimensions can't be any heftier or it wouldn't fit.
"The truth you believe and cling to makes you unavailable to hear anything new. "--Pema Chodron.
SWATcop556
02-03-10, 23:34
I prefer the Mod4 for general purpose use and the Mod3 for running the CH under a magnified optic.
organdonor
02-03-10, 23:45
"The truth you believe and cling to makes you unavailable to hear anything new. "--Pema Chodron.i have no idea what you mean.
I prefer the Mod4 for general purpose use and the Mod3 for running the CH under a magnified optic.
Same here. I started out with the opposite idea though and had the model 3 (longer one) on my carbine and the mod 4 on a 20". I've since switched them mostly because the 4 is plenty long to be beneficial on the carbine and the 3 does add a little more to grab under the scope.
I have found the edges of both to be a bit sharp when I'm being a spas and not wearing gloves, but the design is awesome.
Is there any drawback to billet? I purchased a forged upper, it was out of spec, and I was sent a billet for my troubles. Any reason I would want to sell it and get a forged? I would not make any money, so I'd rather just keep the dam thing.
I think there is some confusion between the two just for clarification. Billet refers to a solid block of metal which can be steel, aluminum etc. Forging is the process of forming metal by compressing it either heated or not heated which aligns the grain structure making the metal more consistant and stronger than cast or milled pieces. "Billet parts" are CNC machined from solid blocks "billets" of metal which offers the ability to make complex shapes and precise lines an example of this is the POF lowers with integrated trigger guards. Forged parts are usually forged to a near final shape and then limited machining is done to clean up or finalize the product. The machining of forged metal is more difficult due to the increased strength of the metal post forging.
RogerinTPA
02-04-10, 07:41
I like the Mod 4s. They seem perfect for my hand and not as big of a snag hazard as with the Mod 3. I swapped with someone on the range once and kept inadvertently getting it hooked on my kit when doing transitions and slinging my weapon.
Robb Jensen
02-04-10, 08:08
i have no idea what you mean.
It means you should look at things with an open mind.
From the title of the thread it seems that you've already made up your mind that a BCM Gunfighter isn't better than a standard charging handle. With your mind already made up you won't see the advantages of the BCM.
The difficulty is that we do not see, we do not listen, we do not perceive things directly and simply as they are.--Krishnamurti
ForTehNguyen
02-04-10, 10:57
when combined with a Magpul BAD, the gunfighter charging handle shines even more
bnanaphone
02-04-10, 11:25
I prefer the Mod4 for general purpose use and the Mod3 for running the CH under a magnified optic.
My thoughts and use exactly.
Fire_Medic
02-04-10, 11:30
when combined with a Magpul BAD, the gunfighter charging handle shines even more
Big +1 on this!
arizonaranchman
02-04-10, 20:56
Well after reading this thread I now know what my next purchase will be... I'll be going with the Medium sized Gunfighter on both my AR's.
organdonor
02-04-10, 22:05
Well after reading this thread I now know what my next purchase will be... I'll be going with the Medium sized Gunfighter on both my AR's.glad my ignorance could help someone
Read more. Manufacturers make billet lowers because they CAN'T make forged, because the forges to make lower receivers are HUGE! The alleged benefit is that by doing all the fab with machines instead of forging they can be more accurate but I don't believe this to be true, or an issue if it is true.
Most people buy billet lowers because the don't know better, it says "billet" on it, and they like the looks of the beefier lower.
BTW, the reason billet lowers are beefier is because it's weaker, meaning it has to be thicker to be as strong.
sorry to break the bubble here but here is the truth
firs let me give you a bit of my back round i am a design and manufacturing engineering major and have studied materials and methods of manufacturing extensively.
now the difference between a forging made from 7075 t6 and a billet of 7075 t6 is NOTHING
they are both the same material with the same properties same everything.
the only instance where a forging may display better properties is if the forging was made using cold working technique. this means that the material was pounded or formed with out using any heat. this will induce compressive stress in the material and making the Cristal structure interlock.
now in most cases materials that are forges, are hot worked. thus they need to be tempered. this is were the t6 comes in ... aluminum just like steel can be hardened this is done by taking the aluminum alloy and heating it to 1000F fallowed by a rapid quench and then aged hardened at 320F
this will yield a 30% increase in strength
now so what do we get from all of this ... 7075 is the material alloy composition and T6 is the heat treatment applied to the alloy
now in the case of economics ... a forging is much cheaper to produce than a machined part but it does not allow custom work and my have forging flaws such as pits, un even surface etc...this said a machined parts allows for better dimensional accuracy and the stock usually used also has less likeliness of having material defects present such as micro cracks but the price is allso extravagant...
now in the case of an ar15 well it all depends ... u want custom and cool factor go for billet... u want something that works and is original ... a forging will do...
next big thing is composites but that is an entire new lesson...:)
BTW this is not to insult or to be Deming anyone here i have acquired this knowledge and willing to share it ... i have tried to put this as simply as i can
it's a very complex subject.
My gun is made from Legos and according to the government is plenty strong and dangerous:p
Seriously, I plan on buying the BCM Gunfighter as soon as its number comes up on my build list. DD Omega is next:D
billet is weaker than a forging, so that wouldn't be very productive.
I don't think that's universally correct, especially with Aluminum (as referenced by the previous post). Forging's strength advantage exists when "grain flow pattern is oriented in the optimal direction" which is completely disrupted when the magwell etc. is cut, and Aluminum's strength, particularly for 7075, is mostly from heat treating anyway.
Here is a good writeup / thread: http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=260537
You have to register to read. The upshot is there's really no advantage (strength-wise) either way, in an AR platform.
I'm sure the BCM is great - the design is superior to a standard CH, especially in the latch - but it's from billet due to limited-run manufacturing economics, nothing else.
ztf HITMAN
02-05-10, 15:27
I like it. (Mod 4 Med. Latch)
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