View Full Version : Which pistol would you carry in a non-permissive environment?
dookie1481
02-02-10, 03:29
My friend works at a place that forbids concealed carry. However, he recently expressed his apprehension about spending roughly a third of his waking hours unarmed in a city of 2 million people. He asked me what he should carry if he absolutely cannot get caught. I have no experience with smaller guns, so I figured I would ask here. Any suggestions?
Jay
glock 26s are excellent deep-concealment guns, but it's all about the method- which depends on clothing and climate. i wear pull-on boots, and have kept a Keltec p32 with "pocket clip" installed clipped to the inside of my boot. EXCELLENT for concealment, no so excellent for access. the same gun would fit into my vest pocket, but i generally kept it in the boot as a BUG or even BUBUG.
if his clothes permit, a .38 j-frame in a pocket can be very concealed, but still a good caliber and easy access. i still BUG a .38 in my vest pocket sometimes.
i haven't seen anyone sport one in a long time, but belly-bands were popular for a while.. PPKs, keltecs, LCPs, maybe even a glock 26 should all work find completely tucked under a shirt.
if you're not going to be sitting much, and especially if you wear a jacket all day (again, climate), you can conceal some pretty big guns in the small of the back- glock 26 easily.
just some stuff off the top of my head.. hopefully helpful.
ETA.. for what it's worth- I might be a little ballsier about some things that most, but i wore a 1911 in a pancake holster on my strong-side hip, with a long jacket, for a no-carry job i had in college. worked fine for almost 2 years.. never got busted.
ChicagoTex
02-02-10, 05:45
he recently expressed his apprehension about spending roughly a third of his waking hours unarmed in a city of 2 million people.
If your friend's primary motivation for carrying a gun is that there are lots of people around, he probably shouldn't be carrying a gun.
I'll never understand why people seem to think there's a mugger on every single street corner in cities...
ChicagoTex
02-02-10, 05:54
To clarify: you do NOT need a big "reason" to carry a gun, at least not in shall-issue states. What I'm saying is this fellow hasn't felt the need/want before, if the only reason he wants to do now is the population increase that seems irrational to me.
No experience with them but he could try a "Smart Carry" I have seen them before and seems like you can get a good sized firearm in there and have it out of sight. Other thought is if he wants to strike a compromise between size and accesibility he could look at something like a Ruger LCP in a pocket. I carry an LCR in my pocket sometimes and while you can tell something is in my pocket, a gun should be the last thing most folks think of.
-Drew
Business_Casual
02-02-10, 07:17
To clarify: you do NOT need a big "reason" to carry a gun, at least not in shall-issue states. What I'm saying is this fellow hasn't felt the need/want before, if the only reason he wants to do now is the population increase that seems irrational to me.
I wouldn't assume it is the population numbers or crime - I live in a big city and the trial of the 20th hijacker was held here. Do you think there was an increased risk to the general public during that trial that wasn't related to the average street thug? I did.
ETA - if he does go with a tiny pocket gun or a small revolver, it would be best if he practiced a great deal with it. They are much more difficult to shoot well and the time to find that out is at the range not in the elevator with a knife to your throat.
M_P
My friend works at a place that forbids concealed carry. However, he recently expressed his apprehension about spending roughly a third of his waking hours unarmed in a city of 2 million people. He asked me what he should carry if he absolutely cannot get caught. I have no experience with smaller guns, so I figured I would ask here. Any suggestions?
Jay
Smith & Wesson J-Frame in .357mag.
I am partial to a Ti Chiefs Special loaded with Speer Gold Dot 135gr +p .38SPL.
It can always be loaded (no mag issues) and implemented from inside a coat or jacket pocket at close quarters. It is very light and extremely easy to carry.
John_Wayne777
02-02-10, 08:06
My friend works at a place that forbids concealed carry. However, he recently expressed his apprehension about spending roughly a third of his waking hours unarmed in a city of 2 million people. He asked me what he should carry if he absolutely cannot get caught. I have no experience with smaller guns, so I figured I would ask here. Any suggestions?
Jay
I am not infrequently forced to be in a place where possession of a firearm is frowned upon.
I find that the S&W J frame, while far from the ideal carry gun in many respects, is invisible while remaining powerful and capable enough to handle most tasks that a concealed carry piece can reasonably be expected to handle.
S&W 642 with a Barami Hip Grip and Tyler T-Grip adapter, loaded with Speer 135gr. GDHP's, along with a speed strip. If I can't do waist carry I use a Smartcarry holster or a Desantis ankle holster
For serious deep concealment in my work environment I normally just carry a Spyderco Civilian or Military, and a can of Fox OC in my jacket. A Surefire E2D comes along in the evenings.
My friend works at a place that forbids concealed carry. However, he recently expressed his apprehension about spending roughly a third of his waking hours unarmed in a city of 2 million people. He asked me what he should carry if he absolutely cannot get caught. I have no experience with smaller guns, so I figured I would ask here. Any suggestions?
Jay
If he were to carry would he be breaking the law, or just work place policy? Breaking the law means fines and possible jail time.....breaking policy means having to look for a new job.
Your friend really needs to figure out what the ramifications are should he be caught.
My G26 worked well for me when I was in a similiar situation ;)
(even though its a flawed design...) :p
I do this frequently, and when I carry this way I am using the approach that a couple others have recommended: a SmartCarry, with a PM9. I find that the PM9 is so flat and conceals so well in the SmartCarry, I have no need to use the flush-fitting, compact mags, so I can use the larger 7rd mags both in the pistol and for a reload. That gives me 15 total rounds of Federal HST +P.
I'm often in non-permissive environments. I haven't had any trouble with subcompact Glocks, J-frames, P3AT/LCP. IWB, pocket, and ankle carry work best for deep concealment, as does a holster shirt like the Kramer or 5.11. Depth of concealment increases complexity of presentation, however, as well as speed of it.
Though I don't advocate off-body carry, you might find one of the concealment briefcases or messenger bags helpful.
What works, and how well, depends on your mode of dress, the types and ranges of motion you'll be engaged in, and more specifics of the workplace.
I sold my pocket .380s and bought a PM9 as my pocket/deep concealment gun. It carries nicely in most any pocket or I also use a Smartcarry or IWB.
Small, light, & easy to reload (god forbid I need too) are my reasons for carrying this.
I can even carry it when in my PJs in a IWB; it is my 24/7 option.
Buckaroo
I really like the S&W 442 for that application.
current: Ruger LCP
mid-2010: S&W Bodyguard 380
(assuming it proves reliable and functional)
I'm in the same predicament at the OP's friend. I'm leaning towards a Walther PPS 9mm in a smart carry. I've carried a glock 26 before in a smart carry but sitting for a long time sorta sucked so I think a thinner overall piece would be better for me.
the PPS is about the same size (other than being thinner) than the 26
I have had the 40 PPS and a G27 and a M&P9c (still own and like)
I don't really think going just a little thinner is going to make that much a difference sitting down
had an older Kahr P9 and am considering a PM9 again
Rule of thumb: Dress around the gun you carry.
Not all guns conceal easily.
Not all outfits conceal easily concealed guns.
Pathfinder Ops
02-02-10, 12:20
When in the same situation i go with my snub 38+P
I have one of the 5 shot, air-weight framed ones and in an ankle holster or any of the other very good concealment holsters it is MY preferred way to roll.
I have one of the strip style re-loaders (not cylindrical) and its in my front pocket. That gives me 10 JHP +P's and its a small package.
I'm a 1911 shooter and don't go in much for the Glock 26 or any of the other real small frame semi autos on the market today. I had a G26 and the LCP.
Didn't like them so I sold them.
I haven't tried any of the compact 1911 styles yet so I can't comment from personal experience.
I'm kinda old school I guess but a revolver as a backup or in this situation is a nice way to rock.
Kahr PM9 in Smart Carry or a belly band. They're so small and flat they disappear under all but the tightest of clothes.
When in the same situation i go with my snub 38+P
I have one of the 5 shot, air-weight framed ones and in an ankle holster or any of the other very good concealment holsters it is MY preferred way to roll.
I have one of the strip style re-loaders (not cylindrical) and its in my front pocket. That gives me 10 JHP +P's and its a small package.
I'm a 1911 shooter and don't go in much for the Glock 26 or any of the other real small frame semi autos on the market today. I had a G26 and the LCP.
Didn't like them so I sold them.
I haven't tried any of the compact 1911 styles yet so I can't comment from personal experience.
I'm kinda old school I guess but a revolver as a backup or in this situation is a nice way to rock.
hard to argue against a Jframe isn't it?
I have a 642 loaded with 135g Gold Dots for short barrels
Sidewinder6
02-02-10, 14:14
Ask your friend if he gave any thought to what he will do if he uses it. Ones status will change considerably. It is easy to carry a gun in a non-permissive or hostile environment. Quite another to use one. Is he a good runner?
Ask your friend if he gave any thought to what he will do if he uses it. Ones status will change considerably. It is easy to carry a gun in a non-permissive or hostile environment. Quite another to use one. Is he a good runner?
A good point. Once again, he needs to better investigate the concequences of not only being caught, but having to use it. Is the risk worth it, or are there other alternatives to ensuring that he doesn't become a victim while at work?
I know, I know,.......better to be judged by twelve than carried by six. However, if the job is how he keeps his family fed then the risk is substancial not only in losing the job, but paying additional fines and even spending time in jail.
Ask your friend if he gave any thought to what he will do if he uses it. Ones status will change considerably. It is easy to carry a gun in a non-permissive or hostile environment. Quite another to use one. Is he a good runner?
I'd say he needs an up to date resume more.
self defense shootings are always life and death, and always unavoidable. otherwise, we wouldn't fire to begin with... right? a guy can duck out the back just as easily armed as unarmed.
carry a gun everywhere and anywhere, regardless of unconstitutional laws.
Sidewinder6
02-02-10, 14:41
Well we are speculating about whether a jury would be understanding.
Most places considered non-permissive (hostile envorinments), you will be lucky to be thrown in a dungeon as the consequences could be much worse. Theoretically considering places such as Iran or North Korea.
But, even in our own country the places where possession is a crime, you are going to have to make a fast desicion about how to handle what happened. And not compound the situation.
This is considerably more important than the holster selection. Just sayin..
dookie1481
02-02-10, 14:50
This is not an environment where it is illegal, just company policy. We both work retail, so there are any manner of individuals coming and going all the time.
He just wants the comfort of having a gun, I guess.
I'll pass this info on, thanks guys.
Jay
self defense shootings are always life and death, and always unavoidable. otherwise, we wouldn't fire to begin with... right? a guy can duck out the back just as easily armed as unarmed.
carry a gun everywhere and anywhere, regardless of unconstitutional laws.
Just make sure that you weigh your options. It may go well should you be forced to use your weapon, or it can result in dire concequences outside of lawsuits and prosecution. For example, should you be wounded or killed in the fight.....because you violated company policy it may void your medical and life insurance coverage with the company. If you are in a wheel chair of the rest of your life, the company may have covered all your expenses because you were in the work place(in addition to compensation).......but your violation of policy could result in them leaving your out to dry while your family covers your $100k-plus bills and takes care of you for the rest of your life.
Always think things through when you violate work place policies......
Pathfinder Ops
02-02-10, 15:01
This is not an environment where it is illegal, just company policy. We both work retail, so there are any manner of individuals coming and going all the time.
He just wants the comfort of having a gun, I guess.
I'll pass this info on, thanks guys.
Jay
I this a "Mall Ninja" story?:D
Sorry, but I know I'm not the only one thinking this?
Bottom line is even if it's legal in that state or whatever if he is carrying at work let's say and he gets busted, "they" the owners of the business and or building can press charges.
Don't ask which ones because that would be hard to say, but I know in NY at a minimum they could apply trespass. From there it would get really stupid.
It isn't going to be just a matter of needing a new resume if he gets busted and it gets followed up.
EDIT- Yeah it is hard to ignore a J Frame..... Golly they are fun to shoot and can the wreck a bad guys day.
Just make sure that you weigh your options. It may go well should you be forced to use your weapon, or it can result in dire concequences outside of lawsuits and prosecution. For example, should you be wounded or killed in the fight.....because you violated company policy it may void your medical and life insurance coverage with the company. If you are in a wheel chair of the rest of your life, the company may have covered all your expenses because you were in the work place(in addition to compensation).......but your violation of policy could result in them leaving your out to dry while your family covers your $100k-plus bills and takes care of you for the rest of your life.
Always think things through when you violate work place policies......
always think it through- yes.. but the think your thinking shouldn't be whether or not to carry the gun, it should be whether or not to use it for something unnecessary. contrary to my last post, there ARE situations when you have to make the decision- like when deciding whether or not to engage an armed robber robbing an establishment you happen to be in. if you're in violation by carrying, you have the option to not shoot his ass. but if YOU'RE the target, you also have the option TO shoot his ass.
there's never a time when it's better to just spread your arms and say "shoot me, i'm defenseless." you still shoot- even if the potential for 100K in medical bills is there, because bankruptcy goes away in 10 years, but death never does.
Assuming the individual in question can lawfully carry concealed and has adequtate training, a J-frame w/Lasergrip.
Also, if the retail situation is so volatile to warrant being armed, wearing soft armor might be prudent. If carrying firearms is illegal, consider getting one of the civilian Tasers--they are legal in many non-permissive locations, like California.
dookie1481
02-02-10, 15:36
Assuming the individual in question can lawfully carry concealed and has adequtate training, a J-frame w/Lasergrip.
Also, if the retail situation is so volatile to warrant being armed, wearing soft armor might be prudent. If carrying firearms is illegal, consider getting one of the civilian Tasers--they are legal in many non-permissive locations, like California.
Nothing terribly dangerous, just want to be prepared.
Jay
dookie1481
02-02-10, 15:36
I hate to be a goofball but I am actually asking this question for me and my friend.
I don't like putting info out there on the interwebz for everyone to see. I tried to operate under the pretense of asking a question for a "friend" but it's become difficult to bullshit my way through this conversation anymore so I'm just going to drop it.
There is nothing "mall ninja" about wanting to be armed. I may not be a Marine getting shot at in Iraq anymore at but I am cognizant of the fact that there are quite a few dangers in the U.S. also and they are quite insidious. Many lull themselves into complacency by the relatively low frequency and proximity of these dangers. How many times have you heard someone say "well I live in a good neighborhood" or "I keep an eye out for shady people"? I am not that foolish. I just want the ability to defend myself should the need arise.
My company sent out an email the other day about a robbery committed in one of our stores. It really bothered me as the only weapon I have on me at work is a knife, and I am not Jason Bourne. The last thing I'm want to happen is some piece of shit taking me and my friends in the back of the store and putting a bullet in our heads for a few thousand dollars. Having a gun would go a long way toward being able to stop that and defend myself. That's all. No hero stories, no stopping robberies. I don't give a flying shit about my store's money or merchandise. I just don't want someone popping me in the back of the grape because I wasn't adequately prepared.
Jay
self defense shootings are always life and death, and always unavoidable. otherwise, we wouldn't fire to begin with... right? a guy can duck out the back just as easily armed as unarmed.
carry a gun everywhere and anywhere, regardless of unconstitutional laws.
DING DING DING!!!! WE HAVE A WINNER!
Chris
If I have to shoot someone to defend myself, I don't give a rats ass what my employer thought of my carrying up to that point. (mine happens to be very cool, I'm in high end jewelry sales and have a VZ58 under my desk).
Knowing what the legal repercussions are is one thing but I'd never let company policy dictate to me about my pm9, my tdi last ditch knife or anything. Concealed means concealed and if it comes to the point where I have to use it and get fired later for it. OH WELL!
Chris
Good idea: A small .38spl revolver or semi-auto 9mm in a SmartCarry or IWB strong-side holster, preferably one with velcro clips or velcro attachment to your pants.
Better idea: Find a workplace which will let you carry at work.
Pathfinder Ops
02-02-10, 17:28
I hate to be a goofball but I am actually asking this question for me and my friend.
I don't like putting info out there on the interwebz for everyone to see. I tried to operate under the pretense of asking a question for a "friend" but it's become difficult to bullshit my way through this conversation anymore so I'm just going to drop it.
There is nothing "mall ninja" about wanting to be armed. I may not be a Marine getting shot at in Iraq anymore at but I am cognizant of the fact that there are quite a few dangers in the U.S. also and they are quite insidious. Many lull themselves into complacency by the relatively low frequency and proximity of these dangers. How many times have you heard someone say "well I live in a good neighborhood" or "I keep an eye out for shady people"? I am not that foolish. I just want the ability to defend myself should the need arise.
My company sent out an email the other day about a robbery committed in one of our stores. It really bothered me as the only weapon I have on me at work is a knife, and I am not Jason Bourne. The last thing I'm want to happen is some piece of shit taking me and my friends in the back of the store and putting a bullet in our heads for a few thousand dollars. Having a gun would go a long way toward being able to stop that and defend myself. That's all. No hero stories, no stopping robberies. I don't give a flying shit about my store's money or merchandise. I just don't want someone popping me in the back of the grape because I wasn't adequately prepared.
Jay
Dude!
First of all good for you that you are man enough to state that Bullshitting us was getting difficult. Most of us here saw through that shit straight away.
Second The Mall Ninja reference was NOT towards you specifically, it was reference to an epic posting on another site. I will try to locate it and you will understand the tongue in cheek reference.
No foul was intended.
This is the link for the mall ninja thing if you need a good laugh:
http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/
QuietShootr
02-02-10, 18:12
Smith & Wesson J-Frame in .357mag.
I am partial to a Ti Chiefs Special loaded with Speer Gold Dot 135gr +p .38SPL.
It can always be loaded (no mag issues) and implemented from inside a coat or jacket pocket at close quarters. It is very light and extremely easy to carry.
Yup. I use a 340PD with 145gr Silvertip .357s. Lightest possible gun with the heaviest possible punch for its size.
SeriousStudent
02-02-10, 18:25
S&W 642 with a Barami Hip Grip and Tyler T-Grip adapter, loaded with Speer 135gr. GDHP's, along with a speed strip. If I can't do waist carry I use a Smartcarry holster or a Desantis ankle holster
For serious deep concealment in my work environment I normally just carry a Spyderco Civilian or Military, and a can of Fox OC in my jacket. A Surefire E2D comes along in the evenings.
Twin brother from a different mother. ;)
I have the same pistol & ammo (642, with Barami and T-grip), and pocket carry in a custom horsehide holster, right front pocket.
Knife is a Spyderco Ronin in a custom concealment pocket holster in the left front pocket.
And it's all disposable. I'd walk away from it in a heartbeat if I needed to.
I am going to buy a set of Crimson Trace laser grips this month.
And to the OP - I hear you. I worked retail for years, and am a fellow graduate of the University of Science, Music and Culture. Nothing like watching three guys slither into the store right before closing time, to make you wish you had a gun.
Or even better - lots of friends with guns. Something belt-fed, preferably.
geminidglocker
02-02-10, 18:38
The secret is that it's your secret. I don't travel to Non-Permisive environments. I live in Vermont and even at the Post Office you've got staff and customers armed alike, but the key is you don't "SEE" it, so to speak. It is just everyday common knowledge. Did I mention we have the third lowest Crime Rate in the country?:confused: I've sold guns to Postal workers in the town I used to live in, and they specically required that the Firearm must be the most concealable available. Oh, before you go thinkin' it was Private Sale, it was'nt, I was a sporting goods Department manager at a Hardware Store, under a Licensed FFL. I also took half of a correspondence course in Gunsmithing.
In this type of work environment, you have to pass the same people every day who might notice things that strangers on a street might not. This might have repercussions where corporate policy prohibits the carry of weapons that are otherwise legal to carry.
I use a Kahr PM-9 for pocket carry. An important part of the equation is having a tailor deepen your dress pants pockets to give the gun more room so that it doesn't risk printing. Though most 5-11 type pants have enough pocket room, dress pants generally don't and will print hen you sit down.
With pocket carry you can have your hand in your pocket on the gun ready to draw if necessary.
Below is a picture of my Kahr PM-9 and S&W 640 both in Uncle Mikes holsters. It's hard to tell from the picture how much flatter and more compact the Kahr PM-9 is.
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/eds-stuff/pockguns.jpg
If he were to carry would he be breaking the law, or just work place policy? Breaking the law means fines and possible jail time.....breaking policy means having to look for a new job.
Your friend really needs to figure out what the ramifications are should he be caught.
Would you, or your friend, ever be roped into a business lunch in a place where they serve alcohol? I don't know where you live, but I believe most states prohibit firearms anywhere alcohol is served. Just trying to cover all scenarios where you could get yourself in legal trouble.
Perhaps you'd be better of using your wits and power of perception. See someone that looks "off" and look for a fattie to hide behind. Just weigh the pros and cons first. I'm betting the odds are significantly higher that you'll get yourself in legal trouble, long before you run into a random, violent criminal, assuming you don't work at a liquor store.
Would you, or your friend, ever be roped into a business lunch in a place where they serve alcohol? I don't know where you live, but I believe most states prohibit firearms anywhere alcohol is served.
see my statement above.. no law prohibiting a person from defending himself is valid.
and as for "most" states- i don't know about that.. i think that's a mostly south-eastern thing.
current: Ruger LCP
mid-2010: S&W Bodyguard 380
(assuming it proves reliable and functional)
Todd, you're moving away from the LCP? What prompted the change?
a friend of mine has been carrying a G26 in a smart carry for nearly a year in a non permissive environment.
draw is a bit slow, but a lot faster than from your glovebox in the parking lot.
also packs 11 rounds of 9mm in a pleasant, durable, easy to shoot package.
glock should pay me for the amount of talking up of the G26 that i do. it's a perfect freakin carry gun. invisible, and confidence inspiring.
a snubby 38 is another option.
pocket carry of a keltec 3at/ruger LCP/ or one of the fancier wonder380's or tiny 9's (rohrbaugh comes to mind) is a possibility too. a workplace shooting could be against a prepared, well armed adversary though, that seems to be how those assholes do it. so i keep that in mind.
Good idea: A small .38spl revolver or semi-auto 9mm in a SmartCarry or IWB strong-side holster, preferably one with velcro clips or velcro attachment to your pants.
Better idea: Find a workplace which will let you carry at work.
this "finding a different job" thing isn't easy right now.
even if you're "permitted" to carry, or not expressly forbidden, someone seeing your gun could raise an HR issue. it's really really best to blend.
A Kel Tec P32 was my choice for a similar situation. (I'm now retired, so it's a non issue).
Small and light enough to carry in dress slacks or most any pocket (absolutely must be carried in a pocket holster). Yes - it's a mouse gun, but it still beats a sharp stick.
A retired Federal LE friend carries a P9 in his left front pants pocket. He's a lefty and no one ever suspects what he's fondling when his left hand is in his pocket. I could not get mine to run 100%. Reliability trumps everything.
An Airweight J-Frame is great with 511 or similar csual pants, but is a little too bulky for dress slacks - or was for me, anyway.
My G26 worked well for me when I was in a similiar situation ;)
(even though its a flawed design...) :p
ok i'll bite :confused: what's flawed about it?
Alaskapopo
02-02-10, 23:48
If your friend's primary motivation for carrying a gun is that there are lots of people around, he probably shouldn't be carrying a gun.
I'll never understand why people seem to think there's a mugger on every single street corner in cities...
By the law of averages there are more criminals in the city because their are more people. Cities also have higher crime rates than rural areas. I won't go to any major city unarmed. Hell I don't go anywhere unarmed unless I have to leave the USA. To address the OP. My deep cover pistol is a Smith 442 Airweight. I carry this gun when I don't want anyone to know I am carrying. I used this as a UC gun when I was in the drug unit. Small easy to carry and adiquate power.
Pat
Todd, you're moving away from the LCP? What prompted the change?
Only if the Smith proves itself.
The Smith has better sights, better trigger, and a laser that -- while not being instantaneous like the CTC -- is going to be more dependable. Like many people, I have a hard time keeping the laser on my LCP on during shooting because the button is so small and falls right where the gap beneath my knuckle rests on the frontstrap.
But again, I'd only switch if the Smith proved to be as high quality as my LCP has been so far.
Business_Casual
02-03-10, 17:12
ok i'll bite :confused: what's flawed about it?
Inside joke - read the Gen 4 thread.
M_P
QuietShootr
02-03-10, 17:24
Would you, or your friend, ever be roped into a business lunch in a place where they serve alcohol? I don't know where you live, but I believe most states prohibit firearms anywhere alcohol is served. Just trying to cover all scenarios where you could get yourself in legal trouble.
Not in my state. I can open carry in a bar if I want to.
Dave James
02-03-10, 17:24
Jay thats a tuff question to answer, MOst of the time I have carried in an NPE requirement was deep cover, not easily aquired, most of the time it was a TPH in 25acp in a shirt tail holster, gotten to through the pants pocket, where i could go larger it was the PPK in 380 with ball, more or less in the Appendex style behind the belt buckle area,draw was helped along by pushing up on the muzzle from inside the pant pocket again.
Large caliber was 38super under the shirt in a home made bib of sorts.
Biggest thing I see is he needs to look at his AO and understand his true needs, learning to avoid trouble might stand him better then worying about gun carry
If his NPE is a bit more relaxed then go with nothing smaller than 380 and ball IMO , "J" frame Smiths are hard to beat, but can abe a problem for some to conceal
QuietShootr
02-03-10, 17:28
Good idea: A small .38spl revolver or semi-auto 9mm in a SmartCarry or IWB strong-side holster, preferably one with velcro clips or velcro attachment to your pants.
Better idea: Find a workplace which will let you carry at work.
So, that pretty much rules out any Fortune 500 companies, or anything other than Joe's Garage, Maury's Jewelry, or Bubba's Gun Shop.
No, thanks. I'll keep my excellent salary and benefits, and carry as if I'm in a non-permissive environment. If I have to shoot someone, I'll deal with getting another job then.
Inside joke - read the Gen 4 thread.
M_P
:D double recoil spring?
The possibilities are really large, if I were carrying in a location where I was not supposed to be one of the following would be great choices.
Ruger LCP
Khar MK9
Glock 26
Khar P380 (hell lets be serious any Khar mini 9 or .380)
Smith & Wesson Bodyguard .380 (coming in May)
heck the list could keep going. any of these in a belly band would work for me. I am partial to the Glock 26 12 rounds of 9mm, small and controlable.
I just got a call from Kahr and I believe we will be reviewing the PM9/Crimson Trace model soon
http://www.kahr.com/PA-1_9mm_pm.html#pm9093L
VooDoo6Actual
02-04-10, 10:36
S&W 640-1 or 649 in .357
Bowhunter2001
02-04-10, 13:13
Here are some choices. Rohrbaugh R9S Stealth on bottom (9mm) and LCP Ruger (.380) on top. Kahr PM9 9mm second picture. The R9 and the LCP can be carried in your pocket. The Kahr can, too, but it is a little bigger.
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x265/Bowhunter2001/015-1.jpg
http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x265/Bowhunter2001/KAHRPM99MMIB1016CT720910NEW.jpg
Alpha Sierra
02-04-10, 16:24
S&W 637 is my choice.
I haven't bobbed the hammer but I will likely do so soon.
I am a fan of the G26 as well. I would consider a good ankle holster with pants that are long enough and boot cut. Any gun under a shirt may print to some degree so that can be a bad thing. An ankle holster can go undetected with the proper pants. If you really want deep cover for an up and close encounter you could do one of the little pocket pistols that is a deranger type that could go in your pocket like a pack of gum.
KS Trekker
02-05-10, 17:54
Ask your friend if he gave any thought to what he will do if he uses it. Ones status will change considerably. It is easy to carry a gun in a non-permissive or hostile environment. Quite another to use one. Is he a good runner?
Based on the guys I've seen at the range, they should spend more time on the treadmill than shooting at the range. ;)
Alaskapopo
02-05-10, 18:01
Based on the guys I've seen at the range, they should spend more time on the treadmill than shooting at the range. ;)
Given the opportunity to fight of fly (run) I would rather fight. Nice value you judgment you have there. Yes some of us could be in better shape so that means according to you we don't deserve to be at the range until we meet the correct height to weight ratio?
Pat
KS Trekker
02-05-10, 18:17
Given the opportunity to fight of fly (run) I would rather fight. Nice value you judgment you have there. Yes some of us could be in better shape so that means according to you we don't deserve to be at the range until we meet the correct height to weight ratio?
Pat
Nothing wrong with standing your ground, but not every "fight" situation can be settled legally with a gun. Self defense doesn't begin and end with a gun. Besides, your chances of falling victim to heart disease, diabetes, and obesity are far greater than the odds of being involved in a deadly shooting.
Alaskapopo
02-05-10, 18:31
Nothing wrong with standing your ground, but not every "fight" situation can be settled legally with a gun. Self defense doesn't begin and end with a gun. Besides, your chances of falling victim to heart disease, diabetes, and obesity are far greater than the odds of being involved in a deadly shooting.
That is true. That is why I carry pepper spray in a ASP kubaton key chain, and have trained for a total of 7 years in martial arts. That is for off duty. On duty I have all kinds of gadgets that help me win the fight.
Yes your right your more likely to die from the causes you mentioned and staying in shape is important. But there is nothing wrong with people training with their firearms even if they are not in tip top shape.
Pat
Another vote for the Kahr pm series. I owned a pm40 for a while until i decided my hands were a bit too "lanky" to feel 100% confident in carrying it. My longer features would occasionally interfere with the action and mag release. Just my two cents, but I feel the gun itself is very concealable, nicely designed and would work well for some folks. The pm9 may be a better option.
Based on the guys I've seen at the range, they should spend more time on the treadmill than shooting at the range. ;)
Have you seen the original poster or participants of this thread shooting at a range?
If not maybe it is not fair to make generalizations.
Nothing wrong with standing your ground, but not every "fight" situation can be settled legally with a gun. Self defense doesn't begin and end with a gun. Besides, your chances of falling victim to heart disease, diabetes, and obesity are far greater than the odds of being involved in a deadly shooting.
Not denying that there are other threats to health that may be statistically more probable.
But this is a thread about a defensive carry gun discussion in the handgun section of a firearm forum. What you brought up is a separate issue unrelated to firearms.
Throwing in the health thing is almost an oblique antigun\anticarry angle and an attempt to marginalize peoples concerns about defending themselves against violent crime.
tr1kstanc3
02-05-10, 21:07
Glock 26 or the Ruger LCP with the Crimson Trace laser for deep concealment.
When needing maximum discretion I carry my S&W 638 in a Kangaroo holster, that essentially holds the gun under one's armpit. I've carried this way wearing a fairly form fitted button down shirt and tie and the concealment was excellent.
Speed of draw is obviously impaired, but you can reach into your shirt and get a hold on the gun and draw it through an open button area in a fairly practicable manner.
The Kangaroo holster looks like some weird kinky man bra, or "bro", and it kinda feels like it impairs your chest expansion a tad (it is a sensation more than actual reality) and the overall quality is not far beyond just adequate, and it is a little difficult to adjust just right, but I found it to be a solution where nothing else would have worked period.
I like my trousers Euro style (no pleats) and fitted (yes you can make fun :D) so smart carry isn't an option for me. If you put on the Kangaroo holster directly on the skin and it is hot you may get armpit sweat dripping onto the gun, but I imagine that this can be mitigated with a thin and light undershirt.
Anyway, not a perfect solution, as nothing ever is really, but something to consider.
Another good thing about it is that you can keep your arm down against your side and keep people from inadvertently palpating your pocket warmer when they try to embrace you (you know, those friendly lasses in the office), or think that you are extra happy to see them, as with a smart carry.
QuietShootr
02-06-10, 00:46
Nothing wrong with standing your ground, but not every "fight" situation can be settled legally with a gun. Self defense doesn't begin and end with a gun. Besides, your chances of falling victim to heart disease, diabetes, and obesity are far greater than the odds of being involved in a deadly shooting.
All right, Gavin de Becker.
:rolleyes:
All right, Gavin de Becker.
:rolleyes:
Reminds me about the time I started a concealed carry thread on the weightwatcher's forum. No one there wanted anything but airweight guns, no matter how hard you try to explain that a gun 6-8 ounces more might result in a more shootable gun.
I did learn about a new Ruger recall there. Aparantly their LCP does not work reliably if you spill too much low carb salad dressing on it.
dookie1481
02-06-10, 02:27
Nothing wrong with standing your ground, but not every "fight" situation can be settled legally with a gun. Self defense doesn't begin and end with a gun. Besides, your chances of falling victim to heart disease, diabetes, and obesity are far greater than the odds of being involved in a deadly shooting.
I certainly agree with you, but what the hell does that have to do with this thread?
Jay
QuietShootr
02-06-10, 08:30
I certainly agree with you, but what the hell does that have to do with this thread?
Jay
My guess is that what we have here is one of those scrawny little go-faster Appalachian-body runner types who got outshot by a big guy. I used to love those guys in the Army. Reminds me of my last 1SG: Perfect PT test, but had to go back to the range three times to QUALIFY, had an ND in the basement of the armory, and got caught punching holes in his target with a pencil on the last Alt-A.
But boy could he run! The CSM loved the guy.
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm304/rickmcaz/DSC00886.jpg
G26 has worked for me.
Ankle carry.
My guess is that what we have here is one of those scrawny little go-faster Appalachian-body runner types who got outshot by a big guy. I used to love those guys in the Army. Reminds me of my last 1SG: Perfect PT test, but had to go back to the range three times to QUALIFY, had an ND in the basement of the armory, and got caught punching holes in his target with a pencil on the last Alt-A.
But boy could he run! The CSM loved the guy.
man... if only that guy could shoot.... :o
you'd think he'd take some time and really learn to shoot. only a small percentage of people can reach his level of fitness, but mostly anyone can be trained in firearms proficiency. was he just not into it? :confused:
This is not a thread about physical fitness. Let's keep it on track. Any thoughts on the value of physical fitness vs. shooting skill, pro or con, should be shared in another thread.
varoadking
02-07-10, 17:52
...no law prohibiting a person from defending himself is valid.
Are you a judge or a legislator?
robinhawkins13@comcast.ne
02-08-10, 11:29
Ruger LCP....slide it in your pocket and you dont even know its there.
Are you a judge or a legislator?
I can't speak for him, so I will pose these to you.
Was John Locke? Thomas Jefferson at the time of the writing of D of I? Thomas Paine?
Do you require all parts of your life to be determined by saintly souls wear black robes or the fancy tag of legislator?
I would expect something different from someone who lists their location as "dixie"
Chris
goodoleboy
02-08-10, 18:48
I worked at a convenience store when I was in college that had a policy that you couldn't carry guns on duty. Well, after a few nights of work I made a decision that they could fire me if they found out, but I wasn't risking my life for it.
Depending on the clothing I wore, I was able to conceal the following weapons: S&W snub-nose .38 spl (airlight titanium with internal striker, aluminum alloy frame, titanium cylinder, Stainless bbl sleeve), Springfield Mil-Spec 1911 (usually in winter wearing fleece pull overs or zip up vests with a long sleeved shirt underneath).
By far, the snub nose was easier to conceal. It was extremely light (too light, actually) so I would carry it in the pocket of my blue jeans and put either a vinyl pouch in front of it to mask it's outline in my pocket, or cut out a piece of cardboard to the size of the pocket and put it in front. I could have used an ankle holster, but I liked having it within hand reach without having to bend or stoop.
I was able to conceal the 1911 in a paddle holster, under a loose-fitting sweater or jacket. I also used an under arm, shoulder holster but I didn't like it as much because if I spun around fast, it would swing and could be a dead give-away.
I feel that there are smaller options than the snubby, but you get smaller at the expense of cartridge size, accuracy, and control.
My only grievience with the light snubby I had was that when using hot loads with heavy bullets, it would recoil so hard that it would pull the bullets out of the cases in the chamber so far that the cylinder wouldn't rotate. The first time that happened to me on the range was when I started carrying the 1911. I sold the snubby shortly after that. I regret that decision now, because I never had a problem with light loads. I just freaked out when that happened at the range one day and sold it in a panic.
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