Help with choosing which m-4

[thegoat273]

Ok, looking for a little assistance with your experiences. I am in the market for a personal m-4. I currently carry an Bushmaster that is Dept. issued. I like it, but I know there are several more out there. Alot that I am unfamiliar with. I have talked to one dealer that is selling Stags. At a very good price, but I don't want to jump into something just because of the price. I know you get what you pay for. I am looking for a mid length m-4 with a flat top so I can attach optics or what have you. I am a right handed shooter. I am just looking for some pros and cons that you guys have experienced. If you do give me some feedback, please support why you are responding. I am not interested in just a brand thrown in this thread w/ out some supportive criteria. Thank you in advance.

thegoat273

[ForTehNguyen]

Do you have a price range? Bravo Company (BCM) has high quality without BS overpricing. You can get their midlength uppers minus the bolt carrier, charging handle and handguards for $425 or so. Very high quality

[larry0071]

While you are waiting for the responses, I would suggest going to a website with a base subject matter of something similar to say.... I don't know..... M4 Carbine or something like that.... and try searching with thier cool search function built into the database.

(All joking aside) Honestly, the question you asked is very valid for those that are trying to learn the what and who of AR style rifles, but in being so, it has also been covered about 3 bazzilion times on just this one site. You'll read until you just flat out over it with just what you'll dig out with a search or a scan of the general discussion section.

Look at the grey bar above, to the right of center... mash that sucker!

PS: I'm trying to not come across sounding like an ass hat. If I failed I am sorry!

[TomMcC]

Hey Goat

I would go to the AR General Discussion board and read the "knowledge base threads" section. Read over the "Chart".

There are not that many mid-length manufacturers, I did my research and bought a BCM, and am quite satisfied I bought the best at the price point I could afford. I do believe BCM is one of the best at any price point.

[ForTehNguyen]

reposting from the other thread:
Do you have a price range? Bravo Company (BCM) has high quality without BS overpricing. You can get their midlength uppers minus the bolt carrier, charging handle and handguards for $425 or so. Very high quality

[woodandsteel]

Yep, look at the AR sub forum. Especially this section; https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7355

Look closely at the chart. I wish I would have studied the chart a little more closely before I did my build. If I had, i would have gone with a BCM.

I would pass on what is just available at the local gun store.

[woodandsteel]

Hey Goat

I would go to the AR General Discussion board and read the "knowledge base threads" section. Read over the "Chart".

There are not that many mid-length manufacturers, I did my research and bought a BCM, and am quite satisfied I bought the best at the price point I could afford. I do believe BCM is one of the best at any price point.

My apologies. Reading is fundamental. You already said, what I just posted.:o

[thegoat273]

Thanks fellas

[jhs1969]

I would highly recommend reading the knowledge base threads above, in paticular the comparison chart. Use this as a guide and I think you will find what you are looking for. If you defintely want a mid-length I highly recommend BCM. Don't look at it as a chore. Learning is fun right?

[FVC3]

Yep, look at the AR sub forum. Especially this section; https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7355

Look closely at the chart. I wish I would have studied the chart a little more closely before I did my build. If I had, i would have gone with a BCM.

Be sure and give Daniel Defense consideration also. Be aware there is a mistake in the "Comparison" section of the chart (the blue, checked boxes). The DDM4 is not given credit for its excellent rear sight and Lifetime Warranty.

Oops, just noticed you are looking for a mid-length.

[Buckaroo]

Check this out

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=46351

Buckaroo

[Marcus L.]

The further "left" that you pick from the famous chart, the more likely you are to get the best quality M4 available. Picking something from the "right" of the chart means that you are gambling with a product that may or may not be reliable/durable/dependable. Colt, is the manufacturer that all other's are judged by when it comes to M16s/M4s.

Although Colt makes midlength M4s, I personally don't think they are necessary from a police officer's point of view. The carbine length gas system cycles the rifle action with more authority to help overcome function problems with a dirty rifle, a rifle that hasn't been adequately lubed, and/or a rifle that is exposed to the elements. I've worked in several locations where duty ammo has not reliably cycled longer gas systems unless the rifle was very clean and well lubed. The carbine gas system does wear on parts a little more with full power ammo, but I can replace parts and Colt mil spec parts are pretty tough. It's a lot harder to do malfunction drills in a firefight to overcome a gas system that may not be feeding the action enough.

A Colt 6920 usually runs for $1250-1350 and it has a rail flat top for optics(works well for me). You can also attach a railed handguard, or gas block rail to attach a light/laser:
http://www.colt.com/law/lecarbine.asp

There's also the 6940 if you want forend rails and BUIS with optics as primary:
http://sgcusa.com/p3083/Colt-AR15-LE-6940-16%22-M4-Monolithic-Rail/product_info.html

.......the 6940 usually runs for $1500-1600

[SWATcop556]

The further "left" that you pick from the famous chart, the more likely you are to get the best quality M4 available. Picking something from the "right" of the chart means that you are gambling with a product that may or may not be reliable/durable/dependable. Colt, is the manufacturer that all other's are judged by when it comes to M16s/M4s.

Although Colt makes midlength M4s, I personally don't think they are necessary from a police officer's point of view. The carbine length gas system cycles the rifle action with more authority to help overcome function problems with a dirty rifle, a rifle that hasn't been adequately lubed, and/or a rifle that is exposed to the elements. I've worked in several locations where duty ammo has not reliably cycled longer gas systems unless the rifle was very clean and well lubed. The carbine gas system does wear on parts a little more with full power ammo, but I can replace parts and Colt mil spec parts are pretty tough. It's a lot harder to do malfunction drills in a firefight to overcome a gas system that may not be feeding the action enough.

A Colt 6920 usually runs for $1250-1350 and it has a rail flat top for optics(works well for me). You can also attach a railed handguard, or gas block rail to attach a light/laser:
http://www.colt.com/law/lecarbine.asp

There's also the 6940 if you want forend rails and BUIS with optics as primary:
http://sgcusa.com/p3083/Colt-AR15-LE-6940-16%22-M4-Monolithic-Rail/product_info.html

.......the 6940 usually runs for $1500-1600

What midlength does Colt make and how is a midlength unnecessary for LE work. I've shot weak UMC to 5.56 through my midlengths without issue and that has been through guns with many rounds since the last cleaning of any kind.

For my needs if it has longer than a 14.5 barrel the it has a midlength gas system. Shorter than than and the carbine length is fine. Why choose a rifle that has a gas system that was not designed for a 16" barrel and is harder on parts. Not saying it's a bad choice but it doesn't make a midlength unnecessary or inadequate.

[Marcus L.]

What midlength does Colt make and how is a midlength unnecessary for LE work. I've shot weak UMC to 5.56 through my midlengths without issue and that has been through guns with many rounds since the last cleaning of any kind.

For my needs if it has longer than a 14.5 barrel the it has a midlength gas system. Shorter than than and the carbine length is fine. Why choose a rifle that has a gas system that was not designed for a 16" barrel and is harder on parts. Not saying it's a bad choice but it doesn't make a midlength unnecessary or inadequate.

Colt has made some limited production run 6920s with midlength gas systems and guards. I haven't seen it in their regular catalogs in the last couple of years, and I don't remember the exact part number.

In regard to the midlength being "unnecessary", if he were to purchase a production Colt then he would likely get it in a 16" barrel with carbine gas system. In that case, I would see no reason to justify altering the stock config for a midlength gas system and additional cost. If this rifle is to be used as a duty rifle, it is HIGHLY likely that his agency/department will not allow the weapon to be altered from its factory config.

As far as ammo function goes, this has been a problem with DOI and DHS in commercial duty loads. For example, when I worked in Las Vegas, we procured Winchester Ranger 55gr SP LE223R which we used in qualifications and duty. Our rifles consisted of all Colts in M16A2, M4A2, and 16" carbines. In a 24 officer firing line, literally half of the officers were having to do malfunction drills with this ammo. LC M193 functioned fine in all rifles. When we got our armorers together and diagnosed the problem, we discovered that Winchester had designed this ammo with carbine length gas systems, with a lower flash than normal, and to operate in non mil spec rifles that have larger gas ports. This made sense, because the officers that were using 16" carbines(6920) had no problems, and the only officers that had problems with their M4s were not using a enough lube. When a rifle is kept in a gun lock in a vehicle when it's 120 degrees outside(almost 200 when left in the sun), and sand blows inside when you open your windows, sometimes the rifle's lube runs off into the rear of the receiver and you get dust fouling. After this experience, I prefer to have the carbine gas system in military spec rifles like Colts. We don't always use mil spec 5.56, and sometimes the weapon is not as cleaned and lubed as we'd like it to be when we have to deploy it unexpectedly.

So, I think it is a possibility that Colt has kept the carbine length gas system on their 16" rifles not because of ease of manufacture, but to allow the rifle to function reliably with a wide range of ammunition and environmental conditions.

[SWATcop556]

The OP asked about a midlength to begin with not a carbine. If Colt has made a midlength rifle I'm unaware of it. I only know of carbine and rifle length, but I've been known to forget things before.

The problems with the rifles you mentioned sounds like an officer maintenance or armorer maintenance issue to me. Not keeping your rifles maintained and lubes properly is a training issue and no fault of the rifle or gas system itself.

I'm not saying a 6920 is a bad choice and I still love to shoot mine. I also never suggested modifying a carbine 6920 to a midlength either. Buy the BCM midlength upper and be done.

[Marcus L.]

The problems with the rifles you mentioned sounds like an officer maintenance or armorer maintenance issue to me. Not keeping your rifles maintained and lubes properly is a training issue and no fault of the rifle or gas system itself.

All rifles are armorer checked and serviced once a year. DOI also requires 8 hours of firearms maintenance refreshers every two years to cover all aspects of duty weapon maintenance. We probably have some of the most knowledgeable patrol LEOs when it comes to M16/M4 maintenance.

There was actually a DOI investigation into this issue because the ammo was ordered in bulk through FLETC, Glynco. The 3-month investigation concluded that it was the ammo....after numerous tests were done on the same range with the same rifles with about 2-dozen other commercial ammo brands.

[RogerinTPA]

What midlength does Colt make and how is a midlength unnecessary for LE work. I've shot weak UMC to 5.56 through my midlengths without issue and that has been through guns with many rounds since the last cleaning of any kind.

For my needs if it has longer than a 14.5 barrel the it has a midlength gas system. Shorter than than and the carbine length is fine. Why choose a rifle that has a gas system that was not designed for a 16" barrel and is harder on parts. Not saying it's a bad choice but it doesn't make a midlength unnecessary or inadequate.

I was wondering about that myself. Hopefully, they will get with the program and reintroduce them.

[Pappabear]

read the chart, all the chart, all the pages of the chart, all the tabs of the chart. you will from 0 to 60 in 1 hour. good luck

[USMC03]

The further "left" that you pick from the famous chart, the more likely you are to get the best quality M4 available. Picking something from the "right" of the chart means that you are gambling with a product that may or may not be reliable/durable/dependable. Colt, is the manufacturer that all other's are judged by when it comes to M16s/M4s.

Although Colt makes midlength M4s, I personally don't think they are necessary from a police officer's point of view. The carbine length gas system cycles the rifle action with more authority to help overcome function problems with a dirty rifle, a rifle that hasn't been adequately lubed, and/or a rifle that is exposed to the elements. I've worked in several locations where duty ammo has not reliably cycled longer gas systems unless the rifle was very clean and well lubed. The carbine gas system does wear on parts a little more with full power ammo, but I can replace parts and Colt mil spec parts are pretty tough. It's a lot harder to do malfunction drills in a firefight to overcome a gas system that may not be feeding the action enough.

A Colt 6920 usually runs for $1250-1350 and it has a rail flat top for optics(works well for me). You can also attach a railed handguard, or gas block rail to attach a light/laser:
http://www.colt.com/law/lecarbine.asp

There's also the 6940 if you want forend rails and BUIS with optics as primary:
http://sgcusa.com/p3083/Colt-AR15-LE-6940-16%22-M4-Monolithic-Rail/product_info.html

.......the 6940 usually runs for $1500-1600



Not trying to call you out or trying to start an internet pissing contest. Just sharing information based on my first hand experiences.



I've never had any reliablity issues with mid-lengths made by a quality manufacturer, and I've been running mid-lengths long before they were popular (2002 / 2003).

Based on my limited experience (14 years) I find that the mid-length lends it's self to LEO work much better than the carbine for the reasons listed in the article below:


http://www.03designgroup.com/photo/midlengths-for-leo/icon-midlengths-for-leo.jpg
03designgroup | Advantages of Mid-Length Carbines for Law Enforcement Officers http://demigodllc.com/icon/extwh3.png (http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/midlengths-for-leo)

http://www.03designgroup.com/photo/carbine-vs-midlength/icon-carbine-vs-midlength.jpg
03designgroup | Carbine vs. Mid-Length Gas System on a 16" Barrel http://demigodllc.com/icon/extwh3.png (http://www.03designgroup.com/technotes/carbine-vs-mid-length-gas-system)




I have been using mid-lengths at work, in training classes, and competition for some time. A well known trainer has close to 29,000 rounds logged on one of his test and eval mid-lenghts.


One of my BCM mid-lengths had been through another carbine course in May and some other training and recreational shooting without being cleaned (approximately 3,500 rounds) before it was used in the LMS Defense carbine course. The gun was not cleaned and another student used it during the entire class shooting Wolf (approximately 1,000 rounds) and was not cleaned. So the gun went uncleaned for approximately 4,500 rounds (1,000 of that Wolf) before a spent Wolf casing got stuck in the chamber. The gun had no other issues (ie. short stroking, etc). Over the years, I have seen quite a few Wolf casings get stuck in the chamber of AR's:

http://www.03designgroup.com/photo/bcm-complete-ar15-upper-and-lower-receivers/icon-bcm-upper-lower.jpg
03designgroup | BCM Complete AR15 Upper and Lower Receivers http://demigodllc.com/icon/extwh3.png (http://www.03designgroup.com/reviews/bcm-complete-ar15-upper-and-lower-receivers)




I have found no advantages to the carbine gas system on a 16" barrel when compared to the mid-length gas system.