View Full Version : M16 Clinic upper KABOOM (very pic heavy)
M16 Clinic upper on Colt lower. Lothar-Walther cryo .96" dia. barrel (10.5" IIRC) with YHM FF rail. Unsure of make of stripped upper or BCG.
Suspected cause was a squib load, followed by immediate action, chambering a second round. Shooter was left-handed by firing from right shoulder. Magazine puked out the bottom, case head sheared off, case stuck in barrel removed with tools after the fact. Various states of disassembly shown were achieved at the range with minimal tools. Upper was removed from lower, rod was used to pound bolt back through bore, and then a screwdriver and heavy hammer were used like a chisel to pouch the carrier back to pull the bolt out of battery.
No injuries to the shooter other than being visibly shook up.
Ammunition was shooter's own reloads.
This was in a match setting where I was the Safety Officer and the shooter was the only one on the line. I *should* have caught the squib but this was the second-to-last shot of the stage and my mind was getting ahead of me.
mag that puked
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/Kaboom%20RP/IMG_1146.jpg
One recovered round
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/Kaboom%20RP/IMG_1148.jpg
another recovered round (sorry for the blur)
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/Kaboom%20RP/IMG_1174.jpg
condition of carbine immediately following
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/Kaboom%20RP/IMG_1155.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/Kaboom%20RP/IMG_1156.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/Kaboom%20RP/IMG_1150.jpg
Upper receiver prior to removal of BCG
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/Kaboom%20RP/IMG_1157.jpg
Upper receiver after removal of BCG
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/Kaboom%20RP/IMG_1160.jpg
Case stuck in chamber
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/Kaboom%20RP/IMG_1167.jpg
Head of case stuck in chamber
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/Kaboom%20RP/IMG_1162.jpg
Extractor
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/Kaboom%20RP/IMG_1172.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/Kaboom%20RP/IMG_1162-01.jpg
Bolt catch which sheared off (see above)
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/Kaboom%20RP/IMG_1173.jpg
and remember kids, always strike the heel of the stock, not the toe, on the ground when mortaring
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/Kaboom%20RP/IMG_1154.jpg
Wow! Thanks for the report an glad the shooter is OK.
Just one question, are we sure the ARMS mount didn't cause the kB? :)
Wow! Thanks for the report an glad the shooter is OK.
Just one question, are we sure the ARMS mount didn't cause the kB? :)
Are you implying that the rifle commited seppuku due to the fact that it was forced to wear arms gear? :P
Thanks for the report Rob, thats really interesting.
Incidentally, there is still some discussion that it may have been an over-pressure round, not a squib. I believe it was a squib and that the barrel showed no sign of same because of the .960" diameter. However, it is entirely possible that the shooter had an unrelated malfunction first, performed remedial action, and then had the kaboom due to an over-charge.
Interestingly this is the first occurance of a kaboom at one of our matches in 5 years, some quick math reveals....
5 years x 12 matches per year = 60 matches
20 shooters/match average x 100 rounds/match average = 2,000 rounds/match
60 matches x 2,000 rounds/match = 120,000 rounds down range
Even if you half that to 60,000 rounds that's still a large sample size with only one kaboom.
Add in two years of drills at 200 rounds/month and an average of 15 shooters per event and it's even more impressive.
I'm honored to have made history for the club.
I'm having a smith inspect the barrel today, so hopefully he'll be able to shed some light on what really happend.
I'm not completely convinced it was a traditional squib load. I dont' remember getting any kind of indication of it being a bad round except the typical "click" instead of a "bang" before running the bolt to extract the failure to fire case.
R.
Zombie_Hunter
02-02-10, 14:17
wow...That makes for one crappy day. Glad you are ok. Please let us know if you find out anything else about what might have caused it.
I had a kaboom that looked similar but mine was from a case failure
Mortaring the stock after this was not the right thing to do.
Why would you mortar this and bang the shit out of it when it is more than obvious the gun is done?
The upper receiver should have been cut open and the parts pulled out that way.
Razorhunter
02-02-10, 14:34
What exactly do you guys mean by "squib" ?
I am probably wrong here, but I thought "squib" meant underpowered round went off, possibly leaving a bullet in the bbl, thus obstructing the bbl.
I've probably experienced, or been in the presence of just about every type of malfunction you could imagine, but I'm not always up to par on the lingo/terms used for each type.
Is this not right?
Thanks.
Mortaring the stock after this was not the right thing to do.
Why would you mortar this and bang the shit out of it when it is more than obvious the gun is done?
The upper receiver should have been cut open and the parts pulled out that way.
This happened at night, under range lights. It was not immediately discerned that the gun was FUBAR and the shooter was initially trying to "stay in the fight" and finish the stage.
How do you arrive at what "should" have been done? It's not my gun, but I wouldn't re-use any of those parts anyway. The lower looks to be in tact and I would keep that if it were my gun, but I would not trust any of the upper-related parts. At that point whatever removal of parts goes on is forensic and "hey, look at this" more than anything else.
Zombie_Hunter
02-02-10, 14:53
What exactly do you guys mean by "squib" ?
I am probably wrong here, but I thought "squib" meant underpowered round went off, possibly leaving a bullet in the bbl, thus obstructing the bbl.
I've probably experienced, or been in the presence of just about every type of malfunction you could imagine, but I'm not always up to par on the lingo/terms used for each type.
Is this not right?
Thanks.
You are right that is what a Squib is but if you have a round stuck in the barrel and you fire another right after that then the gas pressure has nowhere to go but back the way it came so it will blow back into the upper and make it go Kaboom
The more we toss this around and with more information I have now, it's the lack of crimping the rounds that caused bullet setback which led to over-pressure and kaboom. Initial malfunction was unrelated.
I'm honored to have made history for the club.
I'm having a smith inspect the barrel today, so hopefully he'll be able to shed some light on what really happend.
I'm not completely convinced it was a traditional squib load. I dont' remember getting any kind of indication of it being a bad round except the typical "click" instead of a "bang" before running the bolt to extract the failure to fire case.
R.
Glad you weren't hurt.
After having several firearms KB on me, and watching several others.....I've become an eye pro Nazi.
Let us know how things shake out.
TSSA is Serious Business.
Was this Saturday's match?
Edit: Oh wow, I was gonna say it looked like Rick's gun.
Was this Saturday's match?
No, last Tuesday.
coming to drills?
No but my prostate buddy is :D.
Be sure to give him some crap, he has a bunch of gear he hasn't squared away yet.
The LSAT is running my life, after Feb 6th I'm done with this wretched test and I'll be back.
This happened at night, under range lights. It was not immediately discerned that the gun was FUBAR and the shooter was initially trying to "stay in the fight" and finish the stage.
I see.
How do you arrive at what "should" have been done?
I would not mortar a gun unless my life was at stake.
I've seen a number of people do this and ruin parts of their gun.
I have seen one incident where a piece of gravel got jammed in between the carrier and inside of the upper and mortaring it caused a huge ass gouge along the sides of these two parts and the mortaring didn't solve the problem.
Razorhunter
02-02-10, 15:46
You are right that is what a Squib is but if you have a round stuck in the barrel and you fire another right after that then the gas pressure has nowhere to go but back the way it came so it will blow back into the upper and make it go Kaboom
Gotcha, and agreed, thanks.
I'm curious to know exactly what winds up being the issue as well.
Even if this truly winds up being an improperly crimped round, which caused bullet setback, I'd still like to ask if anyone here has ever felt like a progressive, or multi stage reloading press is a good idea to use?
I mean, I've just always felt like the Dillon 550 my brother and I own, is somewhat of an accident waiting to happen, despite the care and utmost of attention to detail we put into reloading rounds.
I've experienced a few of "weak" .45ACP rounds over the years, which we reloaded on the Dillon 550, but never have we experienced a squib, or any failure of the bullet to leave the bbl.
However, I have always worried that the wrong amount of powder could eventually be put into one of our rounds, which could equal devastating results, especially if it were to be a DOUBLE powder charge, due to some kind of possible malfunction with the Dillon 550 press.
I just don't trust those things, especially when doing many hundreds/thousands of rounds on such a progressive/multi stage press.
Keeping an eye on crimping and setback, or overall length of the round is one thing, but trying to keep an eye on how much powder is put into each shell casing is much more difficult, if not virtually impossible on such a reloading press.
I've just never felt comfortable shooting reloads done on a progressive press.
About the only reload I would trust enough to be really comfortable, would be rounds reloaded on a SINGLE stage press, done by myself, and myself only. IOW's, I have never trusted reloaded ammo from such companies as GA Arms/etc.
I've had several "mini-KABOOMS" with GA ARMS/etc ammo. Of course, I'm not telling you guys anything you don't already know in regards to reloads. You've all heard of many such happenings with the reloaded ammo, I'm sure.
Gotcha, and agreed, thanks.
I'm curious to know exactly what winds up being the issue as well.
Even if this truly winds up being an improperly crimped round, which caused bullet setback, I'd still like to ask if anyone here has ever felt like a progressive, or multi stage reloading press is a good idea to use?
I mean, I've just always felt like the Dillon 550 my brother and I own, is somewhat of an accident waiting to happen, despite the care and utmost of attention to detail we put into reloading rounds.
I've experienced a few of "weak" .45ACP rounds over the years, which we reloaded on the Dillon 550, but never have we experienced a squib, or any failure of the bullet to leave the bbl.
However, I have always worried that the wrong amount of powder could eventually be put into one of our rounds, which could equal devastating results, especially if it were to be a DOUBLE powder charge, due to some kind of possible malfunction with the Dillon 550 press.
I just don't trust those things, especially when doing many hundreds/thousands of rounds on such a progressive/multi stage press.
Keeping an eye on crimping and setback, or overall length of the round is one thing, but trying to keep an eye on how much powder is put into each shell casing is much more difficult, if not virtually impossible on such a reloading press.
I've just never felt comfortable shooting reloads done on a progressive press.
About the only reload I would trust enough to be really comfortable, would be rounds reloaded on a SINGLE stage press, done by myself, and myself only. IOW's, I have never trusted reloaded ammo from such companies as GA Arms/etc.
I've had several "mini-KABOOMS" with GA ARMS/etc ammo. Of course, I'm not telling you guys anything you don't already know in regards to reloads. You've all heard of many such happenings with the reloaded ammo, I'm sure.
I reload my 223/556 on a 650 and a 1050 and used a 550 previously. I have no hesitation at all to shoot them (shot a lot of them last year at a class in fact). Just pay attention to what you are doing and do look into the case. Most 223 loads come close to filling the case and you can actually see powder at most levels of 223 loads looking into the case. Just use an overhead light. You CANNOT double charge a 223/556 case on a 550. You would spill powder everywhere. As I said, most loads come close to filling the case body (not including the portion where the bullet is) and a double charge won't physically fit. If you use the wrong powder (like a pistol powder) you could have extreme over pressure, and you can have over pressure if you have set back, but a grain or two plus or minus won't cause extreme overpressure.
Make sure you crimp correctly.
And watch what you are doing and be careful. Don't watch TV, or do other things while reloading and take as much time as you need to. Don't rush it.
You are more likely to get a double charge in handgun rounds, especially 45acp, 38 and 357, etc which are large volume cases and where you use relatively low volumes of powder. Using the load I shoot in 9mm I cannot double charge that either as the powder more than 1/2 fills the case before I place the bullet in.
I would not mortar a gun unless my life was at stake.
I've seen a number of people do this and ruin parts of their gun.
Theres a lot of skills/maneuvers that fall under this heading, and thats the reason they should be practiced when your life isn't at stake.
While I've personally never had to mortar my carbine, and I can count on one hand the number of times it's been necessary while I've been present (read: small sample size), I've never seen damage to the gun.
We get a lot of novice shooters at drills, and the combo of dirtier cheap ammo, lack of lube, and lack of user knowledge sometimes contributes to malfunctions. Sometimes the malfunctions can only be cleared by mortaring. It's a simple progression.
Furthermore, the courses of fire that are set up during the matches are meant to simulate a real life possibility. If you're not gonna practice mortaring, or any other skill that might be critical for that matter, in a semi controlled environment that is meant to simulate a serious situation, when are you going to do it?
Of course, YMMV and all that.
I'm honored to have made history for the club.
I'm having a smith inspect the barrel today, so hopefully he'll be able to shed some light on what really happend.
I'm not completely convinced it was a traditional squib load. I dont' remember getting any kind of indication of it being a bad round except the typical "click" instead of a "bang" before running the bolt to extract the failure to fire case.
R.
Rick,
just curious, what powder were you using and was it on a single stage or progressive set up?? Any idea how many loads the brass had??
Will be interesting to see what your smith says. I can see a faster powder (double charge) causing the problem but my guess is the squib...although you would think there would be a bulge??
Glad you walked away amigo!!
JBecker 72
02-02-10, 16:05
:eek:
Im glad the shooter was unharmed.
Scary stuff man....
Razorhunter
02-02-10, 16:23
Great tips. Thank you sir.
I'm honored to have made history for the club.
I'm having a smith inspect the barrel today, so hopefully he'll be able to shed some light on what really happend.
Dang, glad you're OK. Please let us know what the smith says.
When I was in Iraq we discovered several batches of older Prvi Partizan ammo that would kaboom in the Ak47's we were using. I was almost able to get it down to the lot. The rounds seemed to exhibit exactly what I see here which is the rear of the casing blown out and the remainder stuck in the barrel. My guess is that this round was overcharged.
Hey guys,
I hope I can answer some questions that have come up.
I was not crimping at all. I was using neck tension produced through the use of a bushing die from Redding. The brass had 1 load in it.
This is the major change I will implement on my reloading in the future putting some sort of crimp. I did this on the recommendation by a fellow shooter that does A LOT of it.
I was using H335 powder on a progressive press.
Some commented on mortaring the gun. Rob was right, I was trying to stay in the fight. Initially i did't realize it was as serious as it was. I just thought it was a slight overpressure load. When the bolt locked up I was just going to unlock it and keep going. It's a mindset thing I guess. I have to admit though the amount of smoke around me and the gun should have been a real clue. LOL :D It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks.
Either way mortaring is a very acceptable way to get a gun back in the fight.
I'm making some changes to the system now. I ordered the Vltor receiver, a LMT BCG and bolt and another Lothar Walther barrel. The lower works and so does the old BCG and bolt, minnus extractor ofcourse. As for the stock the great people of Vltor are sending me a new one at no charge. At this point I'm waiting for things to come in. I'm having all the parts cryoed too. I think the extra strenght that provides has helped with the parts and the fact that the barrel had easily 15,000-20,000 rounds through it and was still shooting sub moa.
At a minimum it was a big lesson on reloads, and if it wasn't for the amount that I try and shoot I would be buying my ammo.
R.
Hey guys,
I hope I can answer some questions that have come up.
I was not crimping at all. I was using neck tension produced through the use of a bushing die from Redding. The brass had 1 load in it.
This is the major change I will implement on my reloading in the future putting some sort of crimp. I did this on the recommendation by a fellow shooter that does A LOT of it.
I was using H335 powder on a progressive press.
I am going with the set back theory based on the information in this thread. No way you can get huge overpressure with H335 due to case volume constraints (using normally seated and crimped bullets). My approaching M193 load and 62 grain bullets basically is a minimally compressed load IIRC -- been a while since I used a similar combo. You can get over pressure but I think not enough to cause a massive blowout. The bullet setback changes everything of course. That greatly reduces the case volume which can cause a huge increase in pressure.
Heavy Metal
02-03-10, 10:46
If you want to reuse the BC, that's fine but I would relegate that bolt to emergency spare status only or shit-can it entirely after an event like that.
If you want to reuse the BC, that's fine but I would relegate that bolt to emergency spare status only or shit-can it entirely after an event like that.
Hey heavy Metal,
You're right. I ordered a LMT BCG and bolt. I already have a cryoed spare at home, so that's going in the gun and the new LMT is will be the spare. I'll hold on the the kaboom one as an absolute spare.
I'llsay this though. I shot with that whole BCG and bolt last night and everything worked well. That tells me something on the quality and strength of the parts.
R.
I got word on the barrel. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. It was tested with MRI, x-ray, and pressure, all passed with flying colors.
MarshallDodge
02-03-10, 12:35
I am going with the set back theory based on the information in this thread.
I would have to agree, especially seeing the recovered round with signs of setback.
I'm glad to hear that everybody is OK. :)
I was not crimping at all. I was using neck tension produced through the use of a bushing die from Redding. The brass had 1 load in it.
This is the major change I will implement on my reloading in the future putting some sort of crimp. I did this on the recommendation by a fellow shooter that does A LOT of it.
I would only do the neck tension thing on precision rounds from a bolt gun.
whiterabbit05
02-03-10, 12:50
What does it mean to "mortar" a gun? Bang on it like a mortar and pestle?
What does it mean to "mortar" a gun? Bang on it like a mortar and pestle?
To collapse the stock if collapsable, then holding the rifle vertically and hitting down on the ground with it while holding the CH open to force the bolt to open.
Was my description clear as mud?
Example grab a bat with both hands then hit the ground with the base of it. Same thing with the rifle.
With the hit, you're hopping to force the BCG to open.
Mike Miller
02-03-10, 13:57
When I was in Iraq we discovered several batches of older Prvi Partizan ammo that would kaboom in the Ak47's we were using. I was almost able to get it down to the lot. The rounds seemed to exhibit exactly what I see here which is the rear of the casing blown out and the remainder stuck in the barrel. My guess is that this round was overcharged.
We had 3 ak-47s in one relay blow up on us, group of Iraqi soldiers were shooting what I think was Chinese ammo (few years ago, not 100% sure it was Chinese)
KalashniKEV
02-03-10, 14:06
I got word on the barrel. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. It was tested with MRI, x-ray, and pressure, all passed with flying colors.
Where did you take it to get that done?
whiterabbit05
02-04-10, 20:22
To collapse the stock if collapsable, then holding the rifle vertically and hitting down on the ground with it while holding the CH open to force the bolt to open.
Was my description clear as mud?
Example grab a bat with both hands then hit the ground with the base of it. Same thing with the rifle.
With the hit, you're hopping to force the BCG to open.
Cool, thanks.
I took it to a new guy in town. Shooting Arms Company. www.shootingarmscompany.com His name is Rusty Cox
R.
I thougth some would like to know.
I asked the smith about the condition of the lands and grooves of the barrel and he said it looked brand new inside. He said that if I had told him the barrel had 100 rounds through it he would have believed me. It has at least 15,000 if not more through it. He also said he could sell that barrel right now as brand new. I asked him if he thought the cryo treatment had anything to do with it and he said absolutely.
I guess between the quality of the barrel (Lothar walther)the thickness and the cryo the proof is in the pudding, at least in this case.
R.
Rick,
15,000 rounds and no visual throat errosion?? That my friend is pretty dang hard for me to grasp!!
What can I say, this is the info I'm getting from the smith. What I can add though is the gun is still unbelievably accurate, so it does support what he's telling me.
R.
Wow.. I'm glad the shooter is okay. Props for workin through the problem! Good training tool too. I am amazed that the barrel is okay. Thanks for the photos, and the updates..
What can I say, this is the info I'm getting from the smith. What I can add though is the gun is still unbelievably accurate, so it does support what he's telling me.
R.
I would love to get a bore scope on that tube rick!! That is pretty amazing....even with the nekid eye, at 15k rounds on a clean bore you should see some sort of 'speckling' right where the rifling starts for at least the first inch or two when holding up to a light source.
My class iii buddy down here has been praising the lw bbls for some time now for their downrange accuracy. I'm really glad the bbl is OK as it will be interesting to see how long you can ride her before the groups open up.
Just curious, how long did it take for you to put 15k rounds?? It was a ss bbl too correct, not a chrome lined??
Hey Artos,
It took me about 2.5 years to put those rounds through the gun, and yes I do believe its a stainless barrel.
As a matter of fact I just spoke to Woody, the guy that runs LW and I ordered another barrel thinking the one I had was bad after the kaboom. Now it's going to just sit there after I put on the gas block, get it finished and croyed.
I guess there's no doubt that LW makes good barrels but I'm crediting the cryo as the reason the barrel has held up so well.
If this is an indicator of what cryo can really do, I wonder why more people don't do it.
R.
Glad you weren't hurt.
After having several firearms KB on me, and watching several others.....I've become an eye pro Nazi.
Let us know how things shake out.
you're the guy to ask then...
do you feel sunglasses with polycarbonate lenses, such as Oakley, are GTG or do you insist on the ANSI rated lenses?
you're the guy to ask then...
do you feel sunglasses with polycarbonate lenses, such as Oakley, are GTG or do you insist on the ANSI rated lenses?
I always thought much of the Oakley line was ANSI rated. :confused:
ETA They do-
Our pure PLUTONITE® lens material filters out 100% of all UV, and this eyewear meets all ANSI Z87.1 standards for impact protection. It meets the same uncompromising ANSI standards for performance, thanks to Oakley’s HIGH DEFINITION OPTICS® (HDO®).
Hey guys,
I hope I can answer some questions that have come up.
I was not crimping at all. I was using neck tension produced through the use of a bushing die from Redding. The brass had 1 load in it.
This is the major change I will implement on my reloading in the future putting some sort of crimp. I did this on the recommendation by a fellow shooter that does A LOT of it.
I was using H335 powder on a progressive press.
At a minimum it was a big lesson on reloads, and if it wasn't for the amount that I try and shoot I would be buying my ammo.
R.
How much neck tension are you running with your bushing?
This could have been an underloaded round too. What powder measure are you running? Do you notice problems w/static?
Jmart,
I set it up to use 2-3000 of an inch tension using the 246 redding bushing. What I did not do however was to test that same tension with different brass, and that's on me.
I spoke to Redding about this and they made a good point. Even with a 246 bushing the decaping plunger might be opening the mouth of the case on the way out undoing what the bushing did. They suggested maybe not using any decaping plunger with the bushings.
Another buddy also suggested to buff the plunger and reduce its overall size so the plunger doesn't open the mouth as much on the way out. I have to re-test the setup with some of these changes
I'm using 25.5gr of H335 and that's giving me high 2500fps out of my 10.5". It's probably a bit hotter than normal.
As with most accidents this could have been prevented. It was a huge lesson learned. I need to pay closer attention to QC and less about mass producing these things so I can shoot more.
R.
Just measure the delta between resized cases and loaded cartridges. If it's .003 then you're OK and you don't need to remove the decapper.
But I think you're on the right track, a taper crimp die or a Lee FCD would be a good addition to your setup.
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