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tampam4
02-03-10, 22:57
I've looked around online and seen and learned many different things, but I wanted to see the opinions of the M4C crowd that runs.

To prepare for the Navy, I went out and bought two pairs of dedicated running shoes. A pair of the Nike Shoxs 9 SL, and a pair of some new balance running. the Nike Shox were meant for hard surface running only ( concrete, asphalt etc) and the New Balance were sort of my all rounders ( I wore those to my SpecWar PT sessions, which involved track running, grass/dirt/sand and those were often times wet)

Now that I've been running in them for some time, I noticed that the front of my lower leg really hurts. Not just the shin, but in particular the muscle that is on either side of the shin. It's to the point where after running a little more than a mile and a half, as soon as I stop running I start limping really badly and my lower legs are throbbing. I stop limping less than an hour afterwards, but my lower leg still hurts pretty darn good for another 2 days or so, and the pain gets much worse as soon as i try to run again within those two days.

Both pairs of my shoes were bought at Macdill AFB,so there was no staff to assist in finding the right product, and stupid me figured, " shoes are shoes", so I just bought a pair that felt comfy for 2 minutes and was happy about it.

I soon find out that I am an overpronator, which means that I'm rather flatfooted and my foot tends to rotate inwards (think blade of each foot, so left side of left foot in). I also find out that both pairs of shoes are for runners that have a neutral or slighty underpronated(??) gait.
Needless to say I'm sure that wasn't helping me wearing the shoes that are making my less-than optimal gait even worse.

So I'm asking :for those of you either flatfooted or have a over-pronated gait, which running shoe would you recommend/works for you?

From what I've read, the Brooks Beast are great shoes for exactly my problems, but I wanted to see if anyone has something else to say/add/recommend.

http://www.brooksrunning.com/media/pdf_specs/1100521D.pdf
http://www.brooksrunning.com/product/1100521D/123202/Beast

PS ( I know it sounds like I've already made up my mind, but no, I haven't:)) I just want to make sure I'm buying what I need, I don't want to spend another 200 dollars on exactly what I'm trying to avoid.

All the best,

Steindor

rdc0000
02-04-10, 00:00
I used to use the beast for stability. Now I use NB 768, it's a better shoe for me. "www.joesnewbalanceoutlet.com"

You are stretching right? When I first started I would forget and I would be punished.

Consider posting your question on a running forum.

tampam4
02-04-10, 00:08
I used to use the beast for stability. Now I use NB 768, it's a better shoe for me. "www.joesnewbalanceoutlet.com"

You are stretching right? When I first started I would forget and I would be punished.

Consider posting your question on a running forum.


I'm actually the only one in the group who really does stretching, both before exercising as well as afterwards.

I took a look at the NB 768, but did not see if it is designed for those who overpronate.

I have no idea why I didn't think of posting this on a running forum. for the past few weeks M4C has been the only forum!:cool:

Ak44
02-04-10, 01:11
I wear Brooks Adrenaline 10's. You can't go wrong with Brooks they make great shoes. And the fact that I have ankles like a 5 year old and haven't rolled them like every other shoe that i've worn makes me feel good about Brook's support.

M4arc
02-04-10, 07:21
I highly recommend you find a running store in your area. They should have you run without shoes on and determine which shoes will work best for you. Forget about any brands for now and let them pick them.

There's a running store at the International Mall (at the end of Westshore) next to the new Italian restaurant.

They should be able to get you set up.

rob_s
02-04-10, 07:24
What M4arc said. and once you get set up in the shoes and try them on the road, go back and buy several pairs in your size because the goddamn shoe companies always seem to stop making whatever works best. :mad:

R.P.
02-04-10, 07:51
I read a post on Kyle Defoor's blog a while back that talked about how to run and what type of shoe works best for him. I would suggest reading it before you spent any money on more shoes.

sadmin
02-04-10, 08:24
I read a post on Kyle Defoor's blog a while back that talked about how to run and what type of shoe works best for him. I would suggest reading it before you spent any money on more shoes.

I took his advice and departed from my normal running shoe which was an Adidas crosstrainer model from last year (cant recall specifics). I went with the NB 100, and began running in a shoe with less padding / support and im very pleased. Its hard to argue that back /foot related injuries in running sports have skyrocketed since the introduction of gel soles, oversized arches, heavy traction... less is more. Check out Grey Groups site, they have some shoes they can attest to.

Aray
02-04-10, 09:08
I have used this search site in the past with success. It really helped me find a shoe that worked for me.

http://www.roadrunnersports.com/rrs/product/shoe-dog.jsp

M4arc
02-04-10, 09:20
I don't mean to harp on this but reading how to run and what shoes to buy on the internet is silly. Let someone that has been trained to identify how you run and what shoes work best work with you. Hell, I get re-evaluated every time I buy shoes (about every 300 miles) and I don't assume I'll always get the same model/brand.

Shoes change from year to year. Models are discontinued and new ones are introduced. One year a model may favor a certain kind of runner and the next year a completely different type. Let the professionals assist you. It takes 10 minutes, will be cheaper in the long run (no pun intended) and you won't need to waste time trying to figure it out on your own. That's what they get paid to do.

tampam4
02-04-10, 09:21
Thanks to all for the good and sound advice! My legs hurt enough last night, so I spent a few extra hours awake and was looking up on all this stuff. NOT a good idea. I saw all sorts of conflicting statements from people/companies on what to do in my situation...




I highly recommend you find a running store in your area. They should have you run without shoes on and determine which shoes will work best for you. Forget about any brands for now and let them pick them.

There's a running store at the International Mall (at the end of Westshore) next to the new Italian restaurant.

They should be able to get you set up.

thank you so much! Best part is they have a track to test out shoes, which is something that I really need, seeing how simply walking around the store for a few moments really doesn't do much.

That store is definitely a better choice than the Foot Locker I was going to settle on over in Clearwater. M4arc, you in the general area or just familiar with it?

M4arc
02-04-10, 09:30
Thanks to all for the good and sound advice! My legs hurt enough last night, so I spent a few extra hours awake and was looking up on all this stuff. NOT a good idea. I saw all sorts of conflicting statements from people/companies on what to do in my situation...

thank you so much! Best part is they have a track to test out shoes, which is something that I really need, seeing how simply walking around the store for a few moments really doesn't do much.

That store is definitely a better choice than the Foot Locker I was going to settle on over in Clearwater. M4arc, you in the general area or just familiar with it?

You can read advice on the internet until the cows come home or spend 10 minutes in the store. Some even have trendmills and cameras and they'll show you what's going on as you're running. Then they'll bring out several shoes that will help and evaluate each shoe, pointing out how each makes a difference. I'll tell you all this from experience and from someone that learned the hard way.

Stay away from the Foot Locker. That's like going to Wal-Mart for AR-15 advice.

I do not live in the Tampa area but spend a lot of time at MacDill and that area. When I'm in town I run on Bay Shore (lots of sights) and will let you know the next time I'm in town!

Derek_Connor
02-04-10, 16:57
In short, shoes/boots cripple your feet. Tendons/Ligaments degrade and atrophy, muscles weaken, this affects your lower extremity posture, hip to spine alignment, and so on. Its pretty amazing how much are feet were NOT designed to be in common/everyday shoes.

I run exclusively barefoot now, or in These. (http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/indexNA.cfm)

As soon as I get out of the hospital, I put on the five fingers for everyday activities.

Hoosier70
02-04-10, 17:09
I used to work at a running speciality store, go see what they say check out ie. try them on & if possible run in the store if possible then buy what works for you at the base.

ryanm
02-04-10, 18:20
I also over-pronate. I switched to UK Gear last year and they have worked great for me. I have to +1 for what M4arc has stated. Its much better to get fitted by someone who knows how. I simply launched money at the problem and tried a bunch of different shoes until I found something that worked well for me.

http://www.ukgear.com/Shop/Products/Mens-Footwear/1082-PT-03-SC-Road-AND-Trail-Running-Shoe-Structured-Cushioning.html

Mizuno also has some solutions that would work for you.

Derek, those fiver fingers are not a good running shoe for distance. I know 3 hardcore runners that have tried this craze due to magazine articles and Internet hype and all have gone back to more traditional running shoes. ALL ended up with shin splints and tendon pain--one guy broke his ankle. While the idea is sound enough for short distance, going out and sustaining long distance and continuous running is not in our anatomical design no matter what you've read. If we couldn't catch the wooly mammoths within a mile, you had to hope your wife picked alot of berries that day. We have a few hundred thousand years to evolve a solution that incorpoates nikes.

Plus, the fact that they list their shoe as "Vegan" safe is a warning sign to me.

I can see a valid use for these in some free-running activities where you can more effectively use your toes as well as climbing---but absolutely not going out to run 3-5 miles.

And from an aesthetic point of view, they look ridiculous.

DBautista
02-04-10, 19:38
I don't mean to harp on this but reading how to run and what shoes to buy on the internet is silly. Let someone that has been trained to identify how you run and what shoes work best work with you. Hell, I get re-evaluated every time I buy shoes (about every 300 miles) and I don't assume I'll always get the same model/brand.

Shoes change from year to year. Models are discontinued and new ones are introduced. One year a model may favor a certain kind of runner and the next year a completely different type. Let the professionals assist you. It takes 10 minutes, will be cheaper in the long run (no pun intended) and you won't need to waste time trying to figure it out on your own. That's what they get paid to do.

Please do this. Find a reputable running store and get them to profile you.

Kyle Defoor
02-04-10, 21:31
tampam4,

Your shins hurt on either side b/c you're heel striking and wearing a shoe with an elevated heel. This shortens your achilles and puts stress forward on the foot. As with most, your probably over striding as well. No shoe will fix that, it will mask it temporarily. Eventually you'll get stress fractures.

Learn to be a mid-foot striker and take short quick steps. If you can adapt to a minimalist shoe it will align your spine, lengthen your achilles, and weigh less than what you have now. I average about 60-70 miles per week in NB 100's on all kinds of surfaces.

As for the The Brooks Beast, it has long been the favorite of big guys. How big are you? A shoe like that weighs a lot, and your lower leg muscles, which are already taxed b/c of the heel striking will now have to pick up a heavier shoe 2000 times per mile which won't help your cause.

Be wary of running shoe stores and their gimmicks to find out what type of foot you have. Your best bet is to get with an ultra runner and let him watch you run. We look at ourselves and others running way more than anyone else.

If you have to go with a "cushioned" shoe, try to get one with a flat sole so your foot works like designed.

Also, try this guy out- http://www.runlabdro.com/

Naxet1959
02-04-10, 21:34
I'm an overpronater also, wear the New Balance 769. A specialty store will look at you walk in bare feet to see how your feet land and make recommendations accordingly.

Shoes will wear out so keep a running log so that you see how many miles you accumulate plus it will encourage you to see the miles pile up. I'm over 5,500 miles in the last 5 or 6 years. Since I'm a slow, plodder (10 minute mile marathoner) I only get about 325 to 350 miles per pair but lighter, faster guys can get as much as 500 miles. Your legs will let you know!

Derek_Connor
02-04-10, 21:38
Derek, those fiver fingers are not a good running shoe for distance. I know 3 hardcore runners that have tried this craze due to magazine articles and Internet hype and all have gone back to more traditional running shoes. ALL ended up with shin splints and tendon pain--one guy broke his ankle.



How could he attribute that to the shoe?




While the idea is sound enough for short distance, going out and sustaining long distance and continuous running is not in our anatomical design no matter what you've read. If we couldn't catch the wooly mammoths within a mile, you had to hope your wife picked alot of berries that day.


Couldn't agree more. Long distance running, is an exercise in mental masturbation.






We have a few hundred thousand years to evolve a solution that incorpoates nikes.



no, we haven't.




Plus, the fact that they list their shoe as "Vegan" safe is a warning sign to me.


To some, that is important. To me, it is not. More dead cows = more steak for me.



I can see a valid use for these in some free-running activities where you can more effectively use your toes as well as climbing---but absolutely not going out to run 3-5 miles.


I run no more than 2 miles at a time with these, and have had no problems.




And from an aesthetic point of view, they look ridiculous.


I could care less what I look like when Im running.

R.P.
02-04-10, 21:51
Kyle,
How long did it take you to get to this level? Just curious since I have been running about 6 months now, and can't seem to get past about 20 miles a week mainly due to time constraints (work).

Kyle Defoor
02-04-10, 23:40
6 months to relearn how to run.

A year or so to get to that mileage but I've been running my whole life.

I don't stretch, warmup, cooldown, nothing. The reason is I believe that stretching causes minor injuries and soreness. I also don't need to because I'm never sore afterwards. I attribute this to the minimal shoes and technique.

If you want to see the perfect midfoot runners, go to a local playground and watch a 3-4 year old run. To me, that's proof that the shoes are the culprit.

Humans are actually the perfect running machine in regards to distance . Nothing on earth is even close.

Notice the shoes Bannister wore?, Prefontaine? All the Kenyans?

Now, all that being said. If your a big guy, nothing may help your running. Just accept it. Kinda like I'll never be a power lifter.

spamsammich
02-05-10, 01:45
I'm a heavy guy for my size with a slight tendency to overpronate and I've had good results with Asics Nimbus 10s when I get around to training for 5k runs. I've run with them on cedar bark trails (don't recommend), pavement, and hard sand and they've been pretty good and my usual shin splints are a thing of the past. I used to wear Nike and NB shoes, but much prefer the Asics. I'd like to give NB another shot if I can find somebody with experience to prescribe a pair.

ryanm
02-05-10, 03:04
I agree with heel striking being an issue, also agree that re-learning to run will take a long time.

I think one of the issues with military fitness is training to run with a load. This tends to force the heel strike method even more with all the weight shifted rear. Mechanically, running with a pack really does a lot of negative things and reinforces bad habits.

I'll try to find the articles regarding the issue of humans and distance running. I had an anthro class that went into the predation of how far humans ranged and how our biology adapted to support a certain radius.

I know there are alot of studies right now regarding the running barefoot method, and naturally, that is how we are designed biologically. But after you start running with a heel strike, and especially if your a distance runner with heel strike--switching to the barefoot method is really almost dangerous without a lot of careful training. I definitely agree that having a run buddy help diagnose as you go is critical. My buddy that broke his ankle broke was on mile 7 of an 8 mile run. The furthest he had run previously with those shoes was 3 miles and he felt like he was good to go right up until he wasn't.

ryanm
02-05-10, 06:57
http://www.zoology.wisc.edu/faculty/Ste/finalpublishedpdf.pdf

Here's one of the articles, its important to not that the concept of persistence hunting is incredibly costly in terms of energy to the hunter.

I know there are alot of other sources that try to point to persistence hunting as the main reason we've evolved into running machines, but there is also a lot out there that contradicts that perspective with a more anthropological focus.

There are other articles that discus how a person can cover 26 miles faster than a horse because we can do it consistently and mitigate heat more efficiently. I can only say that it would require a highly trained and extremely fit athlete to even attempt to try to out compete a horse over 26 miles. I doubly challenge that data based on the fact the person would need to carry their own water for this to be an effective comparison. If marathon runners had to carry all their own fluid from the start of the race, the times would be a hell of a lot slower thats for sure!

I'm still looking for the predation article.

Derek_Connor
02-05-10, 07:42
There is significant evidence pointing to that we all evolved from ancestors that moved great distances. We are perfectly designed to move miles and miles for hours on end.

But we did not do this running, the majority of it was walking. Slow and steady trumped fast and chronic.

ryanm
02-05-10, 09:32
There is significant evidence pointing to that we all evolved from ancestors that moved great distances. We are perfectly designed to move miles and miles for hours on end.

But we did not do this running, the majority of it was walking. Slow and steady trumped fast and chronic.

100% agree

We might be able to run all of that continuously, but not optimally. If we mix walking and running definitely good to go. These days we try to run the whole distance without stopping and that's where I think we have issues.

Also agree that we have gone too far with shoe mechanics trying to compensate for everything involved with heel strike, but its hard to make that change without injury and requires a gradual approach. I mix up my running using both methods, but using the UK PT03s and I change back and forth continously depending on my how my legs/feet feel.

I see guys running lost lake in full battle rattle almost every day--pretty much stuckrolling off the heel to do that.

If there is a better or different way to approach running with full gear I'd love to know! It will help me and several other people. If there are specific exercises we can do to assist I'll give it a shot and report back.

Kyle Defoor
02-05-10, 10:04
Running with gear just sucks and is very bad for you. That's where well rounded workouts come into play, to help balance and support extra weight. I have found that the Salomon boots are great for this b/c some are built with the flat trail running sole. The 3d fastpacker has good support but your still able to run pretty effectively.

Good discussions here. Fewer people run nowadays which is one reason US kids are fat. You have to learn to not like running when your young, it doesn't just happen. Parents, diet and videogames are the main suspects.

Derek_Connor
02-05-10, 11:19
We were talking about this very subject a few days ago in the OR.

You'd be amazed how many "healthy" people aka long distance types, skinny and thin have to come in for back surgery. It isn't always the "fluffy" overweight individuals..

Chronic Running is simply put, wicked on your joints. Including every single joint at each level of your spine, especially the lumbar.

Chronic running/humping with kit? Exponentially worse.

But i'll be honest, going out for a 2miler or even a 5ker once in awhile, feels good. Real good. I just do it sparingly. Like maybe, 1 or 2 a month. I also understand for those in certain jobs, that frequency isn't realistic and you are required to do more.

On top of the horrible effects it has on spinal morphology, there have been some recent studies on chronic running and heart health. They followed a few marathon runners and tracked their cardiac history. Long story short, just after one marathon, you greatly increase the chances of an MI. Multiples? It keeps going up.

Scary shit.

tampam4
02-05-10, 11:41
Again, thanks to all for really good advice and thoughts, I was hoping to get input like this from all angles and views, thats why I love/hate M4C:D



tampam4,

Your shins hurt on either side b/c you're heel striking and wearing a shoe with an elevated heel. This shortens your achilles and puts stress forward on the foot. As with most, your probably over striding as well. No shoe will fix that, it will mask it temporarily. Eventually you'll get stress fractures.

Learn to be a mid-foot striker and take short quick steps. If you can adapt to a minimalist shoe it will align your spine, lengthen your achilles, and weigh less than what you have now. I average about 60-70 miles per week in NB 100's on all kinds of surfaces.

As for the The Brooks Beast, it has long been the favorite of big guys. How big are you? A shoe like that weighs a lot, and your lower leg muscles, which are already taxed b/c of the heel striking will now have to pick up a heavier shoe 2000 times per mile which won't help your cause.

Be wary of running shoe stores and their gimmicks to find out what type of foot you have. Your best bet is to get with an ultra runner and let him watch you run. We look at ourselves and others running way more than anyone else.

If you have to go with a "cushioned" shoe, try to get one with a flat sole so your foot works like designed.

Also, try this guy out- http://www.runlabdro.com/


Sizewise, I'm about 6'4 240lbs, and probably around 15% body fat. And someone that I PT with said the same thing you did about heelstriking, I guess I always thought running was putting one foot in front of the other faster:o

dcollect
02-05-10, 16:49
I personally go for the lightest shoes I could possibly find. This is always New Balance.

I do not suffer from your problem, but I can say that whatever shoe you do choose, be very sure your foot has been sized by someone who knows. This is most important.

I have been told I have excellent form, not bragging or anything, my point as I was starting in high school, the shin splints are a fact of life and will get better. Run through them - but do make sure it's not somthing else.

Dos Cylindros
02-05-10, 17:48
I am 6'0", 175lbs and am an avid runner. I am also an overpronater which has resulted in ITB pain at times, especially when training for a half or full marathon. I went to a running store and got "evaluated." Overpronaters tend to do better with a stabillity shoe (YMMV) and I have found the ASIC gel Kayano's to be my favorite.

Rana
02-05-10, 20:02
I used to do a lot of running, as it is very convienant, and I even competed as a Middle Distance Runner in another life. It can become addicting.

With that being said I don't recommend running every day unless you are in a program/school that requires it, or you are competitive on some sort of level. Not even some of the toughest programs require daily running however.

For the most part people are not designed to run. I have heard it said "that if God wanted us to run he would have given us four legs." Does that mean we can't- NO. Some countries people and race have a proprensity for it (RE:Kenya, Ethiopia). Others know how to scientifically enhance human performance such as the old Eastern Bloc Countries and more recently North African Countries such as Morocco have had runners "pop." Some people are more suited to run than others. Genetics seems to a very big factor but not the only factor.

WTBS I would recommend getting analyzied and fitted by an actual running pro shop (I.E. Road Runner Sports). Buying 2 pair of the same Fitted Shoes. Alternate the shoes. Running every other day mixed with a routine of strength training as well as stretching on your none running days. Diet is by far the single best thing you could do for your overall health IMO. And finally a little physical therapy goes a long way.

I don't recommend running with a lot of weight as the minus' far outweigh any plus. If you want weight resistance then walking or "Humping" the weight is the way to go.

After years of trial and error and many, many injuries I have found that a "balance" is the only true way for a long lasting and consistent physical fitness regiment.

rdc0000
02-18-10, 22:30
I was totally wrong, this is a running forum. With that said I would like to ask those here what would be a good running boot? I need ankle support, light weight, stability and thorn or puncture resistant in the sole. I'd also like your opinion on running socks like wrights or using a liner.

I'm very surprised about some of the comments because I'm an old big guy (6'3" 230#s) just starting to run. I'm very fearful of injuries so, I don't push for speed, just push for distance. I've went from walk/run to running 3 miles in 4 months. I forced myself to not heel strike. My goal is 6 mile runs by August. Am I nuts or going to be crippled?

Thanks for everyone's comments it has been very useful to me.

Kyle Defoor
02-19-10, 08:18
The boot I mentioned above is ideal for what you want but, Salomon's tend to run narrow. So keep that in mind before you buy. They make a very beefy trail shoe that comes in a gore-tex version called the XT Wing. It's not over the ankle though.

Running in boots invites problems pertaining to foot-to-tibia ligaments and tendons. Contrary to popular belief high tops do not give you ankle "support", they give you ankle stability. Quite honestly they provide more "brush guard" so-to-speak than anything else.

As for your goals- I have a friend who is your size that runs more than me(65miles a week). He does it in a similar shoe to the one I wear (NB MT 100). What you have to do if you want to really enjoying running is learn how to do it correctly, listen to your body, and develop your own program. No two bodies are alike, and no one's body is on a 7 day a week calender. This is what I meant when I said earlier that you have to live the lifestyle. Run as you feel.

Nippy
03-26-10, 01:46
Might be slightly off topic from the original post, but I recently read this book Born to Run (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xv4Se5ka9Pk) by Christopher McDougall.

Basically the author is/was a writer for Men's Health and kept getting injured from running. But after he threw his shoes away and learned how to run like the Tarahumara Indians he was able to start running again without injury.

The Tarahumara don't run like us, they take small strides and strike with their toes I believe. Its a motion similar to someone running up a hill. Their culture revolves around running. Think ultra marathons while kicking a wooden ball around like soccer through the Copper Canyons in sandals.

In the book it also talks about how they were mainly vegetarians but occasionally hunted animals. Their method of hunting, well basically run the animals down till they tire.

This book was the first time I was introduced to the idea that our shoes are the root of our problem with running injuries. I thought it was interesting that Kyle mentioned the same thing and am believing this concept even more.

scanda
03-30-10, 20:07
In short, shoes/boots cripple your feet. Tendons/Ligaments degrade and atrophy, muscles weaken, this affects your lower extremity posture, hip to spine alignment, and so on. Its pretty amazing how much are feet were NOT designed to be in common/everyday shoes.

I run exclusively barefoot now, or in These. (http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/indexNA.cfm)

As soon as I get out of the hospital, I put on the five fingers for everyday activities.

Totally agree!
I am also in the middle of reading the book: Born To Run.
I don't think I will ever barefoot run but I will always run with a flat shoe from now on. I am currently running in Converse All Stars high tops and it has made a huge difference. No more knee and ankle pain...you will feel it in your calves though when you switch. No more heel toe running for me!!!!
My next shoe is going to be either the Asics Piranha or the Nike Free 5.0.

Eddiesketti
03-30-10, 21:16
What M4arc said. and once you get set up in the shoes and try them on the road, go back and buy several pairs in your size because the goddamn shoe companies always seem to stop making whatever works best. :mad:

This is true especially when you wear size 14. :mad:

IMO i like the feel of Asics and New Balance. * Not all NB are american made either if that is something your interested in.