View Full Version : The War on Toyota
ForTehNguyen
02-04-10, 12:56
I knew something smelled like BS with this media storm over Toyota. Even with much larger recalls by GM/Ford I never saw this much energy by the media or govt agencies. You have Transporation Secretary LaHood saying "stop driving" which in turn tanks Toyota's stock price. Later he comes out and says "oh sorry that was a misstatement. Hes always on TV acting tough on Toyota, the credit on the recall is all mine, but when you ask him about the recall itself all he says is "oh just turn the car off?" But hey hes acting tough!
BTW this isnt your typical recall, especially since govt has a vested interest in GM and Chrysler. They have a motive for Toyota bashing. Yet where is Ford in the bash-fest, they are no where to be found. Oh wait they aren't govt/UAW owned. Also the lawsuits that are coming out of this has the trial lawyers licking their chops
Even then theres little "evidence" besides a few hundred anecdotal complaints out of 10s of millions of vehicles sold that there really is a problem. And the Cali incident where the four people were killed in the ES350, it was found the incorrect floormat was installed by the dealer in the vehicle. And even the previous driver of the loaner had the problem, notified the dealer, and still the dealer didn't fix it. Dealership fail.
Considering the crap that has been going on in this Administration for the past year, I wouldnt be surprised if this is really true. Sorry kids, healthcare, unemployment, big bank bonuses were so 2009, the new villain on the block is Toyota. Pay no attention to the rising unemployment, continual Obama and Congress fails, falling Democratic approval ratings, $3.8 trillion budget, $1.6 trillion deficits. You might die in a Toyota! Don't let a crisis go to waste.
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=2519112
The war on Toyota
FP Comment
Terence Corcoran, Financial Post Published: Wednesday, February 03, 2010
There can be little doubt that Toyota, the world's greatest auto maker in recent years, has become the victim of much more than another typical out-of-control All-American media frenzy. When top-line political gamesman such as U.S. Transport Secretary Ray LaHood, Congressional pit bull Henry Waxman, and conniving United Auto Workers executives start piling on, this is clearly much bigger sport that the usual ritual public lynching of auto executives, a routine occurrence in Washington. The attack on Toyota, at this time of U.S. economic weakness and populist excess, is fast turning into a great American nationalist assault on a foreign corporation, an economic war.
The White House has denied any such motivation on the part of the United States. But that denial lacks credibility. While it may be technically true that President Obama's team didn't explicitly reach a decision to target Toyota, nobody in this crowd needs a presidential order to turn the Japanese auto giant's Sudden Unintended Acceleration (SUA) problem into a national industrial advantage for the United States. The owners of union-dominated Government Motors can spot a strategic economic opportunity without waiting for the memo from head office.
California Congressman Henry Waxman swung into action, using recent anecdotal reports of sudden acceleration as a pretext for extended assaults on Toyota and its management. The UAW has joined the project as part of its campaign against Toyota's closure of a unionized California plant.
Wednesday you could practically see the calculating wheels spinning under the hood of Mr. LaHood's cranium when the transportation secretary told a committee that Toyota owners should simply "stop driving" their Toyotas. He later claimed to have misspoken, but then said much the same thing. If Toyota drivers are worried, they can take their vehicles to a dealer where, as Mr. LaHood knows, there was nothing the dealer could do since it is expected to take weeks if not months for Toyota to "fix" the alleged cause of Toyota's alleged sudden acceleration problem.
Toyota shares continued their SUA plunge Wednesday, ending just below $74, down from recent highs of $92. The company has lost $23-billion in market capitalization since the crisis began.
At this stage, there is little hard data on whether Toyota actually has a sudden acceleration problem. The company is not helping matters with its apparent scrambling to come up with an explanation and a "fix" for a phenomenon that has been cropping up in auto industry lore for decades. No maker is immune, but Toyota is seems to have been caught in the latest run of reports. All of the reports are anecdotal accounts of out-of-control vehicles for reasons that nobody can ever adequately explain. The latest stories, including one of a Tennessee man who says his 2003 Camry suddenly jolted into a parking space, become instant media legends.
Of the millions of cars on the road, only a few hundred anecdotal reports exist, making it far more likely that other things are happening, including driver mistakes and even fluke occurrences that no amount of corporate fixing can avoid. Usually the stories fade and the auto companies move on, although Audi famously became victim of a SUA craze a couple of decades ago, losing massive market share even though no problem was ever identified beyond driver error.
Toyota's experience looks like it could become even worse than Audi's, mainly because bashing Toyota serves the national economic interest of the United States, U.S. auto makers, union leaders and others whose economic ideas tend toward nationalism. U.S. jobs for U.S. workers employed by U.S. companies.
Is the media involved? The extent of exaggeration surrounding Toyota's problem may be just a little larger than the usual media frenzy. In a typical over-the-top anti-Toyota item, famed author James B. Stewart Wednesday told Wall Street Journal readers to "avoid - or sell - Toyota Motor shares." His reason is that Toyota may have misrepresented the cause of a now notorious crash of a Toyota Lexus ES-350 in San Diego last August. Toyota said the Lexus crash, in which four occupants were killed following a frantic 911 call, was due to a faulty floor mat.
The official accident report by the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration makes clear that the floor mat is the likely culprit and Toyota may not quite be responsible. The mat in the Lexus was "not secured" properly, and it was also the wrong mat for that Lexus model. There also appeared to be no notable issues with the accelerator pedal itself.
Another newspaper treatment of the Lexus event, in The New York Times, also treated the San Diego crash as a function of a Toyota acceleration problem that has more causes than a poorly-maintained and wrongly installed floor mat. So far, however, nobody has proven this to be true. Even less clear is how the fix Toyota has announced - involving a new part for the accelerator pedal - is even related to the problem. Was Toyota panicked into doing something - anything - when faced with a looming full-bore economic attack from the United States Economic Marines, with the media imbedded as part of the crusade?
woodandsteel
02-04-10, 13:07
I am not that up to speed on all of this. But, from what I have been seeing, I also have my suspicions here. Looks like a lot of political grandstanding to me.
There seems to be two issues (and two overlapping recalls). One is concerned with floormats, for right or wrong, and one with sticking throttles.
My understanding is that the sticking throttles have been confirmed as something that slowly develops over time. And is separate from the floor mat "issues."
I don't think we need to put on our tinfoil hats on this.
I don't think we need to put on our tinfoil hats on this.
I won't agree with the theory but I wouldn't put it past this administration either.
I won't agree with the theory but I wouldn't put it past this administration either.
I wouldn't put it past them to take advantage of the situation (in fact I would totally expect them to), but to have them dream it up I think is a bit of s stretch.
woodandsteel
02-04-10, 13:29
My issue with it is that there are those in Washington, not just the administration, who are trying to take advantage of the situation.
I see it as Toyota seeing a problem, misdiagnosing it, reevaluating it and then trying to arrange a fix for it.
Personally, I view Toyota in a favorable light for the steps that they are taking. Although, I do not have all the facts and maybe they were trying to hide something.
No tinfoil here. Just the normal politics from Washington.
ForTehNguyen
02-04-10, 13:52
to clear up the floormat issue regarding the tragic incident in Cai with the 4 people killed in the ES350. The dealer who had loaned this vehicle installed the incorrect floormats in this vehicle (used a RX400h floormat instead). The accelerator got stuck under the larger floormat of a RX400h which led up to the incident. NHTSA investigation concludes this as well. During the investigation it was found the previous driver of the loaner experienced the same problem, however he was able to shift to neutral, stop, fix the problem temporarily and then complain to the dealer...who still didnt fix it. Huge dealer negligence.
Remember if you get one of these types of situations: shift to neutral to cut power to the wheels, brake to a stop and turn off the vehicle. It's very easy to avoid this situation. Tragically, the 4 people that were killed in Cali did not understand this emergency training. Instead they had called 911, but honestly what do you expect the cops to do when your car is going 100+ mph?
Belmont31R
02-04-10, 14:02
When you let the gov and their unions take ownership of a highly competitive big dollar business you can expect them to use their authority as government to hurt the competition.
Look at the new "bank tax" which all the gov companies are conveniently exempt from, and other companies are going to pay for GM, Chrysler, Fannie/Freddies TARP loan money.
But how many people keep supporting GM, and didn't see anything wrong with the gov taking over 'for the common good'?
Not seeing how this helps the USG or the domestic car market one bit. The average dude out there inclined to buy a Toyota won't go running to GM for his next car because of this. He'll haul ass to Honda. The media coverage is huge because Toyota just about dominates the U.S. car market. There are a bunch of people running around driving their product, and so far they have done a spectacularly stupid job of handling the various issues. Now add to it a bunch of tree huggers running around in their Prius's (or would it be Prii??) who are now being told that there was an issue with their brakes (big fricking deal to the average dude since you need that shit to stop) and that Toyota implemented a software fix without warning anyone that their brakes might apparently go tits-up. At a minimum, this has probably had a significant impact on car sales, and I doubt this Administration benefits from anyone holding off making that kind of a purchase at this time, regardless of brand.
I would like a Tacoma.
I hope that Toyota continues to get abused until they're desperate for sales, cutting prices, and offering 0% for 5 years.
:cool:
tracker722
02-04-10, 14:15
******
citizensoldier16
02-04-10, 14:48
Anybody else perceive all the noise the gov't is making regarding this issue as a way to drive people toward GM/Ford/Dodge? I sure do.
JBecker 72
02-04-10, 15:01
There seems to be two issues (and two overlapping recalls). One is concerned with floormats, for right or wrong, and one with sticking throttles.
correct
my friend is a Toyota tech and he told me that the real issue for these run a ways is a bushing in the accelerator pedal assembly that wears out over time and will stick.
I had doubled the floormats for whatever reason in my Jeep Commander and the accelerator stuck when wide open... After a quick surprise, my first inclination was to nudge my toe under and pull up the gas pedal.
I am sure the brakes would have worked as well.
Another Audi 5000 issue...
Dennis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPDEMO3J7Cw
I would like a Tacoma.
I hope that Toyota continues to get abused until they're desperate for sales, cutting prices, and offering 0% for 5 years.
:cool:
After the forerunner thread, I'm having a similar thought. Toyota will likely be coming out with incentives.
FlyAndFight
02-04-10, 17:10
This whole thing reminded me of Tom Clancy's novel, "Debt of Honor"... ;)
ForTehNguyen
02-04-10, 17:14
Is US bullying Toyota on recall? (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5im7AzPBsRb2Q_qT0FXa8DxrjjLwA)
Socialism at its finest..... Govt run business is pushing out the non-govt run. Govt is slowly over taking Private Ownership.
Same thing with property taxes. You no longer own your property, you are a "occupier". Dont believe me? Dont pay your property tax.... Govt will take your property from you.
Plus, this whole toyota thing is not good. My job is to make the Wire Drawing Dies for Toyota's Spring coil plant. Where 100% of Toyota's spring coils are made, those Spring Coils ran thru a Die that I, me, myself, made.
Go buy a Toyota.... Keep me in work!
I'd rather own a Toyota than a GM or Ford. I thought it was pretty obvious that the government and media are grilling Toyota solely because of the vested financial interests in American automakers already. I wonder how well that toy company is doing. The one that makde wooden arrows and was getting a large chunk of bailout money.:P
You'll see more of this.
It's the solution to America automaker's inability to make good vehicles.
ForTehNguyen
02-04-10, 18:02
Let's consider that the Congressional hearings against Toyota will be conducted by congressman John Dingell, and Bart Stupak, both Michigan Democrats with VERY close ties with Detroit and UAW. This is in a time when GM is owned by the US and the UAW.
Over the course of his career, three of Dingell's top four contributors were GM, Ford and Daimler-Chrysler; his wife, Debbie, was an industry lobbyist until their marriage in the early 1980s and continues to work for GM today. According to disclosure forms, the couple owned more than a million bucks' worth of Big Auto stocks and options as of 2006. After the last election, Dingell hired a Daimler-Chrysler lobbyist whose previous job had been keeping Congress from increasing vehicle efficiency standards to serve as the committee's chief of staff.
More!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35214248/ns/business-autos?GT1=43001
C'mon! I want a white, quad cab, Tacoma sport for $25k out the door and 0%! :p
ugly...I would have loved to follow the 'toyota gas pedal supply chain novel' on all of this.
LOTS of smart noggins in the loop to have a stop sales and production issue!! The mats are a no brainer. The fact they could not switch on the fly with a running recall says it's a tough one on this yet no solution sticky pedal.
EzGoingKev
02-04-10, 19:08
The fact they could not switch on the fly with a running recall says it's a tough one on this yet no solution sticky pedal.
Just because you lead a thirsty dealership to water don't ever assume they are smart enough to drink.
Shades of Audi in the 1980s... Nothing was found wrong with their vehicles either.
The Elite's plan is for public transportation only - you are more easily controlled that way. By Toyota becoming the most visible auto maker (top quality, top sales) what better auto company to hit in the groin?
I don't expect to find much of anything of substance in the anecdotal claims.
It sure smells of .gov trying to smear Toyo...just think of how many YEARS Ford took to even to anything at all about the Crown Vic/LTD exploding gas tank issue, and remember how many people died or were critically burned before Ford acted...and the .gov then hardly did anything. FYI the first recorded rear end fire fatality was in 1983 in a CV platform car.
Socialism at its finest..... Govt run business is pushing out the non-govt run. Govt is slowly over taking Private Ownership.
Same thing with property taxes. You no longer own your property, you are a "occupier". Dont believe me? Dont pay your property tax.... Govt will take your property from you.
Plus, this whole toyota thing is not good. My job is to make the Wire Drawing Dies for Toyota's Spring coil plant. Where 100% of Toyota's spring coils are made, those Spring Coils ran thru a Die that I, me, myself, made.
Go buy a Toyota.... Keep me in work!
All very true, 3 Tacoma's since 01 and won't buy anything else.
I am not doubting the gov is making the best use of the Toyota "crisis" (never let a good crisis go to waste).
I do not believe that the gov engineered the crisis and that there are not really problems.
I would like a Tacoma.
I hope that Toyota continues to get abused until they're desperate for sales, cutting prices, and offering 0% for 5 years.
:cool:
Wow, you literally stole the words out of my mouth with that one. :D
tracker722
02-04-10, 23:44
******
travistheone
02-05-10, 00:14
I think toyota rocks.
FTW
I would like a Tacoma.
I hope that Toyota continues to get abused until they're desperate for sales, cutting prices, and offering 0% for 5 years.
:cool:
LoL, me too, except I want a Sienna
I would also like a Toyota to use as a target. Run your rice burners. For my family it will be Chevrolet all the way baby. Keep it in the USA.
I would like a Tacoma.
I hope that Toyota continues to get abused until they're desperate for sales, cutting prices, and offering 0% for 5 years.
:cool:
"Never let a good crisis go to waste", eh? ;)
tracker722
02-05-10, 01:11
*******
I don't want any car company to go under. I am aware of a Toyota plant in northern IN, and one in Georgetown Ky. and one in california. I wish everyone can have and keep a job that will feed all the families needs. But no i don't think the goverment is behind this to downgrade Toyota. Even the Pontiac vibe is actually a Toyota made in california. So as time goes by the brands have all blurred together. GM has fed me for 49yrs. so yes i am hoping GM turns around, but want others to be prosperous as well.
Belmont31R
02-05-10, 02:41
Just curious...are any of the Toyota plants in the US unionized?
IIRC they pulled out of the last UAW plant in CA recently.... http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2010/01/teamsters-uaw-to-protest-japanses-embassy-over-toyota.html
Notice the UAW had to go protest at the Japanese embassy.
Toyota has plants in quite a few states. I know they have a non-union plant here in Texas that makes some trucks. I will personally not buy a UAW made product if I can help it. They are a threat to the viability of our industry, and have done more to push jobs overseas than anything else in the auto industry. In fact a lot of "American" brand cars are either made in Mexico or made with parts made in Mexico. This is because GM, Chrysler, and Ford cannot make a competitive quality product with the UAW tied to their ankle like a chain and ball.
To top it off the UAW is in bed with democrats and progressives. They and their members donate large amounts of cash to the DNC every year, and regularly endorse DNC candidates. Just look at the areas they are heavy in. They have destroyed entire cities in Michigan, got a fellow progressive to give them GM and Chrysler, and still continue to be a HUGE cost burden to their parent companies while refusing to take a competitive wage. You have people with zero technical skills making 70+ an hour in wages and benefits. I think I read that something like $2000 dollars out of every car goes to lifetime UAW benefits. But people cannot simply put 2 and 2 together to see the car companies burdened by unions were the ones to fail. The ones who are not have done much better. Ford got lucky by the skin on their chin.
ThirdWatcher
02-05-10, 07:18
Tragically, the 4 people that were killed in Cali did not understand this emergency training. Instead they had called 911, but honestly what do you expect the cops to do when your car is going 100+ mph?
I don't mean to hijack this thread, but you've hit on something I've noticed about all this... that some officers spend too much time talking on the radio (or in this case cell phone) instead of acting. When I entered LE (30+ years ago) I had no portable radio (you used your outside speaker) and cell phones and computers were years in the future. We were taught to handle the situation and then notify Communications afterward.
When I first heard this audio recording, I wondered why he didn't just turn the key off or shift to neutral or even reach down and free the accelerator pedal (or pull it up). This was more common when cars were carbureted and I've had it happen a couple times over the years (in each case, the accelerator cable broke when I stomped the accelerator). I've also had floor mats interfere with the accelerator pedal and had to pull back on the mat (and then modify the mat).
As far as the original topic, I wonder how much insider trading has gone on behind the scenes during all this?
ForTehNguyen
02-05-10, 07:53
Just curious...are any of the Toyota plants in the US unionized?
i dont think any, the NUMMI plant in cali is closing down. Rest of their US plants are in the Southern union free states. No wonder the UAW is joining in on the fun
HiggsBoson
02-05-10, 08:21
Full disclosure: In May of last year, I bought my wife a Toyota Corolla S. She loves that car. The design, fit-and-finish, and overall appeal of the car were better than any other model out there for her. This won't change that. As long as Toyota does a good enough job with the recall (which remains to be seen), I would buy another Toyota without hesitation.
I also have suspected some shenanigans in the news about Toyota, but I thought I must be paranoid. I'm not sure if other people agreeing with me means I'm not paranoid... but I'm glad it's not just me. :D
Stop driving it, take it to a Toyota dealer because they believe they have a fix for it. We need to fix the problem so people don’t have to worry about disengaging the engine or slamming the brakes on or put it in neutral.
Ray LaHood seemed to be channeling Joe Biden's H1N1 comments... I wonder if he thinks we can just park our cars and not go to work? :rolleyes: Let's add to the 10% unemployment in the US, not counting people who have given up on finding work. FUD from government officials is almost always a bad thing.
There are also some rumors that there may be an accelerator problem may be related to EMI/RFI, which would be a much more serious problem. That's sort of the perfect rumor to start if you did PR for GM or Chrysler... It is difficult to prove or disprove. It would also be much more difficult to test and reproduce in a lab or garage setting. Maybe someone with more engineering expertise will weigh in on that topic.
ForTehNguyen
02-05-10, 08:29
some parts of the media arent buying the kool aid:
Recalling a Rival (http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=520091)
Gangster government targets Toyota (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/Gangster-government-targets-Toyota-83460857.html)
I would like a Tacoma.
I hope that Toyota continues to get abused until they're desperate for sales, cutting prices, and offering 0% for 5 years.
:cool:
I've been shopping for a new truck since my old trucks transmission went out on the way to SHOT. This morning I found a smoking deal on a used Tundra:D Maybe I'll need to see if I can talk him down alittle more since I don't know if my family will be safe and all.
tracker722
02-05-10, 10:07
*******
ForTehNguyen
02-05-10, 12:58
if a chairman of a competing company said the same thing LaHood said, that is legal grounds to sue because its an attempt to surpress market share or equity
but hey too bad you can sue the govt, but behavior like this is expected from a bunch of Chicago thugs. Govt is in no business in deciding if something is unsafe, that is what manufacturers and mechanics are for.
LegalAlien
02-05-10, 15:40
I would like a Tacoma.
I hope that Toyota continues to get abused until they're desperate for sales, cutting prices, and offering 0% for 5 years.
:cool:
Toyota is pulling out all the stops on incentives to try and keep some momentum in the market at the moment.
Just announced is a $1,000 Toyota owner loyalty incentive on Camry, Corolla and Tundra. You, or an immediate relative living at the same address must own/lease a Toyota to qualify for this. Qualifier - I know this is applicable in the S/E region (FL, GA, NC, SC, AL), but not sure about other regions in the nation. - check with your dealership first.
Sorry Rob, unfortunately does not apply on the Tacoma at this time
And the kicker . . . . . it can be combined with any other low apr, or rebate/discount incentive.
OK Guys, . . . . Toyota is bleeding . . . the smell of rotting, dispairing Toyota salesmen is in the air. . . . . let the discount vultures descend on us poor dealers:eek:
I would like a Tacoma.
I hope that Toyota continues to get abused until they're desperate for sales, cutting prices, and offering 0% for 5 years.
:cool:
Now that is an idea I can get behind. I want a Taco too.
this problem has got people's attention for sure, my oldest daughter drives a 2009rav4,, the wife a 2010 lexus rx350.---both are totally convinced they are gonna die, as soon as they leave the driveway. i tried to smooth it with my wife,,, get her a nice,clean '89 crown vic, i'll drive the lexus. she says, "but you have that nice truck"------[and yeah, i think the UAW has their fingers into this pie, too]
I think Toyota saw this coming. I'm definitely not bashing Toyota, as I have 3 Toyota's in my household (2004 Corolla, 2007 Tacoma, 2008 Tacoma). Last year Toyota decided to pull out of Formula 1 racing. No more factory team, no more F1 engine racing development for non-factory teams. I think they were gearing up towards this recall battle they are facing now. They still compete in NASCAR, because the payoff in staying in NASCAR is a lot bigger. They'll weather this storm after they take their lumps, and go back to dominating U.S. cars sales again.
heartbreakridge01
02-05-10, 21:21
This is the most over hyped recall ever. What really gets me is, the problem is not even that dangerous. Its not a problem you cannot control. If this situation happens while you are driving its totally controllable. The gas tank is not exploding under your ass while you are crusing down the highway. Your Seatbelt is not snapping in half when you get rear ended. The front tires are not falling off when you hit 78.9 MPH. Its a sticky accelarator!! You get Options with this "problem" Breaks, Parking break, TRANSMISSION...Why is it so hard for the average driver to figure out that if the car is accelerating uncontroably with out your foot on the gas pedal to place the transmission in N one step up from D and use the breaks?
When I said this at work 4 people said, oh I would have never thought of that (to put the tranny in N) ... Although from what I hear Toyota is suggesting people slam the tranny in P (which im not real sure it would even get to park going highway speeds+ which you would still end up in N) or step on the breaks REALLY HARD..
LegalAlien
02-06-10, 08:19
This is the most over hyped recall ever. What really gets me is, the problem is not even that dangerous. Its not a problem you cannot control. If this situation happens while you are driving its totally controllable. The gas tank is not exploding under your ass while you are crusing down the highway. Your Seatbelt is not snapping in half when you get rear ended. The front tires are not falling off when you hit 78.9 MPH. Its a sticky accelarator!! You get Options with this "problem" Breaks, Parking break, TRANSMISSION...Why is it so hard for the average driver to figure out that if the car is accelerating uncontroably with out your foot on the gas pedal to place the transmission in N one step up from D and use the breaks?
When I said this at work 4 people said, oh I would have never thought of that (to put the tranny in N) ... Although from what I hear Toyota is suggesting people slam the tranny in P (which im not real sure it would even get to park going highway speeds+ which you would still end up in N) or step on the breaks REALLY HARD..
Now why the heck bring logic and common sense into an emotionally overhyped discussion????:D
ForTehNguyen
02-06-10, 08:38
this entire think reeks of the Sony laptop battery recall. Despite Sony selling 10s of millions, probably 100s of millions of batteries because they produce for most major manufacturers. Then a few batteries caught fire. Then all of a sudden people that have been using their batteries for years suddenly are scared to turn on their laptop. Media overhyped again. What a joke.
perception is reality!
this entire think reeks of the Sony laptop battery recall. Despite Sony selling 10s of millions, probably 100s of millions of batteries because they produce for most major manufacturers. Then a few batteries caught fire. Then all of a sudden people that have been using their batteries for years suddenly are scared to turn on their laptop. Media overhyped again. What a joke.
perception is reality!
No, it's a redux of Audi's "Unintended Acceleration" in the 80's. However, I am aware of issues of unintended acceleration while using the Cruise Control in some Toyota vehicles. So there COULD CONCEIVABLY be something here but the media and gov't agents are making a huge political issue of the thing.
ForTehNguyen
02-06-10, 13:17
No, it's a redux of Audi's "Unintended Acceleration" in the 80's. However, I am aware of issues of unintended acceleration while using the Cruise Control in some Toyota vehicles. So there COULD CONCEIVABLY be something here but the media and gov't agents are making a huge political issue of the thing.
what I was getting at is the same behavior by people and media
perception is reality
what I was getting at is the same behavior by people and media
perception is reality
Gotcha. Few seem to be aware of similar crap foisted upon VW-Audi Group and, more recently, GM with "exploding side fuel tanks"...
Conspiracy? I'd say, unequivocally yes to a large degree (particularly the former two cases - not to mention the "exploding tires" on Ford Explorers...)
ForTehNguyen
02-07-10, 09:47
Funny how the MSM goes apesh!t on this yet they are irresponsible enough to throw accusations out and not telling you what to do if you did get into this situation...shifting into neutral. But when did they care anyways?
Also gotta repay the Trial Lawyer vote somehow, this might prove to be a nice pot of gold for them. This is also a nice misdirection from the economic and govt mess that were are used to seeing on TV. Smoke and mirrors.
Toyota Situation Provides Great Opportunity for America to Examine the Frivolous Lawsuit Epidemic (http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2010/02/06/464779.html)
Toyota Situation Provides Great Opportunity for America to Examine the Frivolous Lawsuit Epidemic
By Marc J. Rauch
Exec. Vice President/Co-Publisher
Autochannel
AUTO CENTRAL - February 6, 2010: There was a time in America, when people would try to make something out of themselves via hard work, ingenuity, and a little luck; sometimes a lot of luck. But along with the proliferation of TV sound-bites replacing well thought out and articulated statements, and the beatification of untalented celebrity nitwits, more and more we are getting overrun by bloodsucking leeches who think they're entitled to endless welfare or obscene frivolous lawsuit settlements.
Sometimes lawsuits are necessary; sometimes the awards are very justified, particularly when a verdict comes after a long protracted struggle to get a person, corporation or government agency to own up to some really nasty wrongdoing - and there has been plenty of that.
But this era of ambulance-chasing TV pitchmen looking for victims has really gotten out of control… Talk about unintended sudden acceleration.
In the Toyota situation, at least so far, we’re looking at something that’s totally despicable in my opinion. There has been no proof that the Toyota vehicles have been suddenly and dangerously accelerating out-of-control, and there has been no stonewalling of action taken by Toyota to mitigate the effects of the firestorm. If anything, by humbling themselves in a show of hari-kari level contriteness, Toyota has laid themselves open for attack from what seems like every hyena on the planet. And attack they have.
When you consider how some companies have capitulated in the past to groundless consumer class-action lawsuits, the sea of shysters might do to Toyota what “American” carmakers could never do; chase the company and its products from our country. Considering how good the Toyota products are, this would be a crime. If new Buicks, for example, are to win back consumer market share, it would be great if they do it because they have a better product and value proposition, not because their toughest competition has abdicated the throne; this will serve no one’s best interests.
Back to my initial premise: Shouldn’t lawyers have to wait on filing class-action claims until something has been proven defective? I mean, we don’t even have a scammed-up video from CBS or NBC yet that purportedly shows how Toyota vehicles suddenly bust out in unrestrained stampede. And shouldn’t the ABC newsreader that has taken to calling Toyotas “runaway cars” be slapped for jumping the gun? How is it that he would have to call the Ft. Hood murderer the “alleged shooter,” but he can render an immediate verdict on Toyota without any supportive evidence?
In case everyone has forgotten, vehicular accidents and fatalities happen all the time. The majority of accidents are caused by operator error, not equipment malfunction. Did we suddenly forget how many people don’t know how to drive properly; how stupid some drivers are; how often drivers hit walls and other cars in parking lots and garages? Do we suddenly not recall that we all know someone who has said, “I dunno, it just got away from me.”
Just this morning, at breakfast, I said to my wife, “If a car accelerates out of control simply move the gear shift to neutral. End of story.” I then had to laugh when about two hours later I watched a news interview with our old friend Bobby Likis (car expert and radio talk show host) who illustrated this procedure exactly: You move the gear shift to neutral, apply the brakes or let the vehicle come to a safe stop, and then turn off the ignition. It’s an easy, simple, virtually foolproof solution; although I have to admit, that like the bromide, “Just when I thought I got out in front of the rat race, the rats got faster,” there’s seems to be no way to inoculate against what a determined fool can do.
On Thursday, after a few days of public statements by Toyota executives about how and what they’re doing to insure that unintended sudden acceleration does not occur, I called my press-relations contact at Toyota and asked how many, and which, journalists have called to complain about any of the Toyota press cars (Lexus, Toyota, Scion) experiencing unintended sudden acceleration. He said, “None.” I asked if he heard of any other Toyota press-relations officers receiving journalist complaints about this problem, and he said, “No.” Yes, I know this is merely anecdotal evidence, and the fact that I have never experienced unintended sudden acceleration in any Toyota product that I’ve test-driven may be just a matter of luck. But then, isn’t it just anecdotal evidence when we hear how some guy’s car suddenly, without intention, accelerated to 100 MPH? Why is that anecdotal evidence good enough to permit the frenzy of class-action lawsuits?
What has confused me is the often quoted story about how California Highway Patrol Officer Mark Saylor, his wife, young daughter and brother-in-law died in a horrific crash when their Lexus 350 ES suddenly accelerated into a “T” intersection, smashed into a Ford Explorer, then an embankment, and then went airborne before coming to a burning stop in a riverbed. Without question, this is a tragic story.
We know the details because Saylor’s brother-in-law made a 911 call to describe what was happening. The reason I’m confused is because the 911 call was made before the crash, not after as he lay dying. If there was time to make such a call and comment on the panic-charged atmosphere in the vehicle, why didn’t the driver, a CHP cop, just shift the car into neutral? It wasn’t just a bang-bang incident (pardon the hideous pun) that happened too fast to react. There should have been time to take counter-measures. If you doubt this, try making a 911 call and see how long it takes to actually get to the point where you can speak to somebody. So there was the time for Saylor to communicate to his brother-in-law that there was a problem; for the BIL to find and/or take out and possibly turn on the cell phone, dial, and then wait for the call to be answered. You would hope that an experienced policeman would not become so completely rattled that he couldn’t think clearly and quickly enough to disengage the drive-train by simply shifting into neutral.
The latest details of the Saylor incident are set forth in the180-page “Toyota Sudden Unintended Acceleration” report issued yesterday, February 5, 2010, by Safety Research & Strategies, Inc. The report, which is available online, acknowledges that NHTSA investigations have never identified a cause of any unintended sudden acceleration claims, and the authors of the report itself make no definitive conclusion as to the cause of unintended sudden acceleration, but it seems to avoid any serious discussion about the likelihood of operator error. One possible reason for this omitted explanation is that there’s no pot-of-gold at the end of an operator-error explanation rainbow, for either the ambulance chasers or for Safety Research & Strategies, Inc., should they be called upon to testify as safety experts on behalf of any plaintiffs.
So again, I’ll return to my initial premise: That the obscenely premature lawsuits against Toyota provide a great opportunity for our legislative bodies to examine the frivolous lawsuit epidemic that has infected America. If I wasn’t such a cynical person, I’d even suggest that some beneficial legislation could result from this examination.
Alpha Sierra
02-07-10, 09:49
http://photos.upi.com/slideshow/lbox/c2ee21bff661ddf3e8d04142627695c4/Toyota-UAW-IBT.jpg
It doesn't matter how good American cars become. They could trounce Toyota and Honda in quality twice over and so long as they are assembled and made by the shitbags in that photo, I will not buy them.
I would have more confidence in a Toyota or Honda than anything made by gm or ford and the uaw.
dmancornell
02-07-10, 16:24
The average prius driver could definitely use some sudden acceleration. Getting stuck behind a prius is one of the most frustrating experiences on the road, especially if it is festooned with leftist bumper stickers.
The average prius driver could definitely use some sudden acceleration. Getting stuck behind a prius is one of the most frustrating experiences on the road, especially if it is festooned with leftist bumper stickers.
Funny, I would find them to be one of the faster moving vehicles on the freeway when I was in Ann Arbor. Talk about ironic (I know, I know... :D ) So much for "saving the environment", eh? May as well turbocharge them.
ForTehNguyen
02-08-10, 15:14
Wow what a hard hitting, no BS, cut the crap article. Time for a dose of reality, say no to media kool aid. C&D just provided the biggest safety minute for this situation, more than all of the media combined.
Toyota Recall: Scandal, Media Circus, and Stupid Drivers - Editorial (http://www.caranddriver.com/news/car/10q1/toyota_recall_scandal_media_circus_and_stupid_drivers-editorial)
How to Deal with Unintended Acceleration (http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept) (tests with 3 vehicles)
Toyota Recall: Scandal, Media Circus, and Stupid Drivers - Editorial
We dive into Toyota’s three-ring circus and emerge with the facts.
BY MIKE DUSHANE
February 2010
First, What to Do if Your Car (Not Just a Toyota) Starts to Accelerate Uncontrollably
If your car starts accelerating unexpectedly, hit the brake (it's the one to the left of the gas) and shift into neutral. After you do this, the engine may race loudly but the car won't accelerate. Pull off the road, brake to a stop, shift to park, and shut off the car. This is a simple solution we guarantee will save your life in any car that suffers from unintended acceleration. For more, read our story “How To Deal With Unintended Acceleration,” which is based on our own instrumented testing.
How Big is This Problem?
We're no Toyota apologists, but if you look past the media circus, the numbers don't reveal a meaningful problem. Every man, woman, and child in the U.S. has approximately a one-in-8000 chance of perishing in a car accident every year. Over a decade, that's about one in 800. Given the millions of cars included in the Toyota recalls and the fewer than 20 alleged deaths over the past decade, the alleged fatality rate is about one death per 200,000 recalled Toyotas. Even if all the alleged deaths really are resultant from vehicle defects—highly unlikely—and even if all the worst things people are speculating about Toyotas are true, and you're driving one, and you aren't smart or calm enough to shift to neutral if the thing surges, you're still approximately 250 times likelier to die in one of these cars for reasons having nothing to do with unintended acceleration. So if you can muster the courage to get into a car and drive, the additional alleged risk of driving a Toyota is virtually negligible.
What's Wrong with Toyotas?
1. Floor mats. In some cases, an unsecured driver's floor mat can supposedly jam the gas pedal. Complaints and deaths stemming from this issue led to the first Toyota recall. Secure your floor mats, take them out, or, if you're too lazy to do either of those and the mat jams the accelerator, shift to neutral.
2. Sticky throttles. The accelerator may stick in some Toyotas. NHTSA hasn't determined that this has actually caused any fatalities, but there is enough evidence that the throttle may stick to warrant a recall. If this happens to you, shift to neutral.
3. The "electronic issue." Unlike vehicles from some other automakers, Toyotas don't kill the throttle when you hit the brakes. This means it's possible to apply both at the same time. Our own instrumented testing determined that you can safely brake a car from highway speed, (read this link) even with the throttle pegged. But if the accelerator is floored and the car is in gear, repeated stabs at the pedal and modulation of speed with the brake will eventually overheat the brakes and cause them to fail. Pumping the brakes is a bad idea beyond the overheating issue. When the throttle is stuck open, the engine isn’t producing sufficient vacuum to enable power assist for the brakes, so press the brake pedal firmly once and don’t let up. (Some allege that electromagnetic interference could be causing the electronic throttles in Toyotas to become stuck open; this is completely unsubstantiated. It’s also possible that alien tractor beams are to blame.)
The lack of a throttle kill is probably the explanation for Toyotas' higher reported rate of "unintended acceleration" than other brands. But it's critical to note that the lack of such a throttle kill isn't a defect. It isn't Toyota's responsibility to account for every possible stupid thing people might do in a car. Anyone so uncoordinated that they can't differentiate the pedals and operate them independently shouldn't be driving.
And this is going to sound uncharitable, but even if the recall dealing with potentially sticking pedals applies to a lot of Toyotas, why aren’t people just shifting into neutral? Even if the throttle really sticks fully open, it won't have any accelerative impact on the car if it's in neutral. By this point, if you have a Toyota (or any car), and you don't know to shift to neutral if the engine races unexpectedly, you're going to succumb to what can only be described as natural selection.
Some Context: Audi's "Unintended Acceleration"
In 1986, the television program 60 Minutes started Audi's "unintended acceleration" scandal. The show trotted out tearful people, recounted death and carnage, spoke to so-called experts, and generally made it seem like the vehicle in question, the Audi 5000, was a roving menace with a mind of its own. In the end, the U.S. government determined that every single so-called unintended acceleration accident was the result of driver error. Some speculated that because Audi's pedals were closer together than those of some other brands, people were too uncoordinated to choose the correct one. The pedal-placement issue Audi faced at that time parallels the throttle-kill issue Toyota faces now.
What Does This Mean for Toyota?
Even if you buy our argument that most of the "unintended acceleration" issues are actually driver error and the company ultimately is vindicated, Toyota is still screwed. Audi sales were depressed for a decade and a half after the false claims leveled against it. Toyota either blames its customers and faces the wrath of the media or expresses contrition and admits it has quality issues. Perhaps having learned from the backlash against Audi when it—rightly—blamed its customers, Toyota has chosen the latter course of action.
Toyota has earned a reputation in this country over the past 30 years as a maker of utterly dull and utterly reliable transportation appliances. Readers of Consumer Reports and their friends buy them by the millions. But with the notable exception of the Prius (which now is facing its own recall fiasco), Toyota hasn't produced many interesting or exciting products. In Car and Driver comparison tests, Toyotas have generally placed mid-pack for years because they handle poorly and have increasingly chintzy interiors. Over the years, people haven't bought Toyotas because they offered driving thrills or prestige; they bought them because, in the words of one CR loyalist and former serial Camry buyer—this author’s mother—"The ultimate luxury is a car that doesn't ever break." So what happens when quality is called into question and the cars don't offer anything special? Well, Mrs. Dushane now drives a Subaru. Even the pragmatic tire of the banal.
whats the lesson of the day? Hint: its in yellow
I don't care what anybody says....Taco's are the Heat!!!
I would also like a Toyota to use as a target. Run your rice burners. For my family it will be Chevrolet all the way baby. Keep it in the USA.
Except for the fact that the only models affected were the ones made in the USA. I don't know if this goes all the way to the government or the media just has nothing else to talk about, but it is way over hyped. Recalls happen, people need to get over it.
I don't care what anybody says....Taco's are the Heat!!!
Agreed!
LonghunterCO
02-08-10, 23:13
I am reminded of Col. Tanner in Red Dawn "Two of the biggest kids on the block. Sooner or later, they're gonna fight..."
Except one of the two kids is the .gov (with their now ownership in GM) pissed that so much of the Cash of Clunkers dollars went to Toyota.
I am also reminded of White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel "Never let a serious crisis go to waste"...of course if the crisis is not serious enough you just build it up until it is.
Except for the fact that the only models affected were the ones made in the USA. I don't know if this goes all the way to the government or the media just has nothing else to talk about, but it is way over hyped. Recalls happen, people need to get over it.
BINGO! I remember when the media crucified GM for the pick up's with the gas tanks located on the side of the frame...made a huge deal about how they would explode on impact,etc,etc, then the truth came out...the tests showing the trucks exploding were rigged... One other thing I've noticed here, alot of people bash the UAW...yes they created alot of problems, But, let's not forget GM's upper management, who operated much like AIG...giving themselves huge bonus's and 10's of millions in salary... Meanwhile, the company was failing..The bottom line, they share as much responsibilty for the companys failure as the UAW does..
ForTehNguyen
02-09-10, 08:25
check out this 1998 article about the aftermath of the Audi 5000 media smear fest. Sounds awfully familar:
http://www.audifans.com/archives/1998/07/msg02207.html
Lurching Into Reverse
by Greg Farrell
Audi sales were crushed by a 1986 60 Minutes show that was off track. A decade later, the car maker is finally recovering, but 60 still won't admit it was wrong.
Buried deep in the 60 minutes archives, squirreled away alongside the program's notable triumphs, is an episode the CBS weekly news magazine isn't eager for you to see.
This isn't some obscure early segment with poor production values that would make the venerable show look laughable today. It's one of 60 Minutes's greatest hits, a piece originally broadcast on November 23, 1986, titled "Out of Control." As presented by veteran correspondent Ed Bradley, the 17-minute segment showed compelling visual evidence that the Audi 5000, a German luxury sedan, had a dangerous propensity to lurch forward on its own, even when the driver's foot was on the brake. This defect, dubbed "sudden acceleration," was allegedly responsible for hundreds of accidents. The piece also included dramatic interviews with six people who claimed that accidents they suffered in their Audis were caused by the car. Two of the wrecks caused fatalities.
But it turns out that all of the people featured who sued Audi eventually lost their cases. And the woman used in the "teaser" opening the clips that run just before the ticking clock at the start of each 60 Minutes show was later fined for filing a frivolous suit.
"It's not because we're embarrassed by the story," says 60 Minutes spokesman Kevin Tedesco, explaining his refusal to provide a tape of the show. It's the lawyers. They don't want to open up a can of worms."
The Audi episode was repeated on September 13, 1987. The rebroadcast included additional information on the skein of mishaps 1,200 reported accidents, including five deaths and 400 injuries claimed to have been caused by the defective Audis. As Bradley stated, "the sheer number of incidents involving the Audi 5000 alone would make it the most frequently occurring serious defect in automotive history."
The show had an enormous impact in the marketplace. Sales of all Audi models in the U.S., which had peaked at 74,061 in 1985, plunged sharply after the 60 Minutes broadcasts (see chart, page 55). "It was a nightmare for the company," says Thomas McDonald, former head of public relations at Audi's parent, Volkswagen of America, Inc. "We lost billions of dollars in sales and revenues." Audi's average annual sales of 14,000 cars from 1991 to 1995 were just 19 percent of its pre-60 Minutes peak.
But in early 1989, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) issued the findings of an exhaustive two-year study of sudden acceleration. It concluded there was no mechanical problem that directly caused the acceleration of the Audi 5000 or any other cars (including Mercedes-Benz, Nissan, and Toyota models) accused by drivers of having minds of their own. NHTSA investigators determined that most of the accidents must have been the result of driver error- especially a driver mistaking the gas pedal for the brake. Government safety agencies in Canada and Japan reached similar conclusions in their own studies.
On March 12, 1989, Bradley presented a short update, reporting on NHTSA's findings. He said the study "supported the position of Audi and the other manufacturers," and that investigators "could find no mechanical or electrical failures which would cause sudden unintended acceleration." While the study concluded drivers were mistakenly hitting the accelerator, Bradley noted that it also pointed to possible design problems,"the shape, location, and feel of gas and brake pedals" as a contributing factor.
"Audi of America," concluded Bradley, "which saw its sales drop by more than two-thirds as a result of adverse publicity, said it was delighted with the new report, which it said finally vindicates the Audi." That was it for the update. What Bradley did not say was that the original 60 Minutes broadcast might have been erroneous or misleading. He termed the NHTSA findings an "opinion." 60 Minutes's own role in creating "adverse publicity" was left unacknowledged. "They never apologized," says a former Volkswagen executive. "They never said, "We were wrong." (Bradley declined to answer questions about his piece.)
What's more, Bradley also failed to mention how 60 Minutes had been able to offer footage of an Audi 5000 lurching forward from a parked position. William Rosenbluth, an automotive consultant retained by plaintiffs in a suit against Audi, says he drilled a hole in an Audi transmission and piped fluid into it. The resulting filmed sequence, in which the accelerator pedal moved down on its own, provided 60 Minutes with the damning visual evidence the program needed to brand the Audi 5000 a dangerous vehicle.
ForTehNguyen
02-09-10, 13:50
Wild, Out Of Control Toyotas? Baloney. | Car News Blog at Motor Trend (http://blogs.motortrend.com/6620540/recalls/wild-out-of-control-toyotas-baloney/index.html)
Wild, Out Of Control Toyotas? Baloney.
Posted Yesterday 11:56 AM by Arthur St. Antoine
Filed under: Recalls, The Asphalt Jungle, Toyota
I cannot sit quietly on the sidelines any longer. This whole Toyota-recalls hoo-ha has morphed into nothing but yet another “crisis” that a ravenous media and 21st Century Americans -- a people who live better and more safely than any humans in history -- have transformed into their panic du jour. This morning I watched a video “report” on CNN.com showing a Toyota owner who drove her Tundra off a rain-slicked road and down a cliff -- and claims she could do nothing to stop the car. The victim appeared on camera with the requisite tears and even the cliché neck brace to bolster her plight. Naturally, the possibility that said driver might in fact be woefully lacking in skills or -- yes, I’ll say it -- even talking on the phone or texting before the crash never arose during the interview. These days, it's always someone else's fault.
I was in this business when the same joke of a “problem” hit Audi in the 1980s. Thanks to a few witless drivers and a barrage of breathless, clueless news reports (including, most prominently, a fear-stoking segment on "60 Minutes"), the entire country began treating the Audi 5000 sedan as if it were a four-wheeled Beelzebub. Only years later, after an exhaustive Federal investigation costing millions in taxpayer dollars, did the truth emerge: for whatever reason, Audi owners were stepping on the gas instead of the brakes
Did "60 Minutes" do a follow-up piece on that? Of course not.
Lest you assume at this stage that I’m a Toyota apologist, let me state my position clearly:
1) Poorly fixed floor mats very possibly did contribute to sudden acceleration or a “stuck throttle” in some Toyotas. Then again, there likely isn’t a brand of car made whose throttle hasn’t been fouled by an errant floor mat on occasion. Car “defects” are part and parcel of creating a machine of such breathtaking complexity. All automakers suffer from them, and 99% of the issues are minor and dealt with swiftly.
2) There very well may be some mechanical issue in the throttle linkages of some Toyotas that causes the gas pedal to bind in some way, even if only slightly.
3) There also may indeed be a software glitch in the brakes of the Prius. My wife drives a 2010 edition, and well before these stories hit the news she’d told me that the brakes “act weird at times -- they can be really jerky” (and, yes, she knows the difference in feel between standard and hybrid-regen brakes). But, of course, they’d always stopped the car.
4) Toyota has completely bungled the handling of this entire affair. True, the company is in a lose-lose situation. Blame Toyota drivers for panicking and slamming on the wrong pedal, and your customer base will tear you down in fury. Conversely, admit to a defect in your cars and you scare potential buyers away -- perhaps for good. Still, Toyota should have owned up and addressed these issues openly and immediately. Instead, as Angus MacKenzie notes in his previous blog, the company has floundered in "feet of clay."
5) I do not believe that Toyota vehicles are poorly designed, dangerous, possessed by Linda Blair, etc. It’s possible that some software or hardware anomaly is causing Toyota gas pedals to behave strangely, resulting in drivers who panic, even slam on the wrong pedal, and crash.
6) I’m concerned that we do not know the full story behind the tragic incident in which a “runaway” 2009 Lexus ES 350 killed everyone aboard -- including an allegedly skilled driver -- last August. The crash simply makes no sense. This is a vehicle that was “out of control” on a SoCal freeway for several minutes -- enough time, in fact, for a passenger to call 911 and ask for help. Are you telling me that said Lexus suffered an absolutely stuck, wide-open throttle, a total failure of the braking system, and also could not be shut down, slowed, or stopped on a freeway with a trained driver at the helm (even crashing obliquely into the guardrail would’ve been preferable to rocketing head-first into an embankment)? Sorry. Doesn’t pass the Baloney Test.
Toyota is now in serious trouble -- and in many ways, deservedly so (just how long ago did Toyota execs know of potential throttle issues, anyway?). But the notion that Toyotas are rising up and rocketing uncontrollably across highways, into walls, or off cliffs is nothing but media-fueled twaddle. Step on the correct pedal -- the brakes -- and your vehicle will stop. But if a vehicle hiccups, for whatever reason, and gets wadded up as a result, the fundamental defect is a clueless driver.
Those, apparently, a like-minded media has access to in droves.
I suggest people read some of the articles in those crazy left wing radical socialist magazines like Business Week, Fortune, The Wall Street Journal, and others that lay the blame squarely on Toyota. This is not a recent development and it has nothing to do with "socialism" or driving Toyota out of business. :rolleyes: It feels silly to even have to say that. Toyota has had these issues for some time, the investigations first occurred under the Bush administration, and came up again. Several Bush administration flunkies were hired by Toyota to try to sweep it under the rug which worked for a short time but too many people were having issues. It's not a recent issue or some deep dark conspiracy by the Obama administration, it's been going on for four or five years. The long term cause appears to be Toyota driving the cost out of making cars to such a point that quality control and materials quality took a big hit. Toyota also tried the "they aren't driving our cars right" defense just like Audi which backfired big time on them for obvious reasons. Personally I side with the consumer against big international corporations every time until I see evidence to the contrary. I have had Toyota's for years btw. My most recent car is a Honda and my wife still has a Toyota Rav 4 that was not on the recall list.
Oops, double post when correcting spelling, please delete.
ForTehNguyen
07-13-10, 15:51
1989 called, they want their Audi 5000s back. People still suck at driving even 20+ years later:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703834604575364871534435744.html?mod=djemalertNEWS
Crash Data Suggest Driver Error in Toyota Accidents
By MIKE RAMSEY And KATE LINEBAUGH
The U.S. Department of Transportation has analyzed dozens of data recorders from Toyota Motor Corp. vehicles involved in accidents blamed on sudden acceleration and found that at the time of the crashes, throttles were wide open and the brakes were not engaged, people familiar with the findings said.
The results suggest that some drivers who said their Toyota and Lexus vehicles surged out of control were mistakenly flooring the accelerator when they intended to jam on the brakes. But the findings don't exonerate Toyota from two known issues blamed for sudden acceleration in its vehicles: sticky accelerator pedals and floor mats that can trap accelerator pedals to the floor.
The findings by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration involve a sample of reports in which a driver of a Toyota vehicle said the brakes were depressed but failed to stop the car from accelerating and ultimately crashing.
The data recorders analyzed by NHTSA were selected by the agency, not Toyota, based on complaints the drivers had filed with the government.
The findings are consistent with a 1989 government-sponsored study that blamed similar driver mistakes for a rash of sudden-acceleration reports involving Audi 5000 sedans.
The Toyota findings, which haven't been released by NHTSA, support Toyota's position that sudden-acceleration reports involving its vehicles weren't caused by electronic glitches in computer-controlled throttle systems, as some safety advocates and plaintiffs' attorneys have alleged. More than 100 people have sued the auto maker claiming crashes were the result of faulty electronics.
NHTSA has received more than 3,000 complaints of sudden acceleration in Toyotas, including some dating to early last decade, according to a report the agency compiled in March. The incidents include 75 fatal crashes involving 93 deaths.
However, NHTSA has been able to verify only one of those fatal crashes was caused by a problem with the vehicle, according to information the agency provided to the National Academy of Sciences. That accident last Aug. 28, which killed a California highway patrolman and three passengers in a Lexus, was traced to a floor mat that trapped the gas pedal in the depressed position.
Toyota has recalled more than eight million cars globally to fix floor mats and sticky accelerators.
A NHTSA spokeswoman declined to confirm the results from the data recorders. She said the agency was continuing to investigate the Toyota accidents and wouldn't be prepared to comment fully on the probe until a broader study is completed in conjunction with NASA, which is expected to take months.
Transportation Department officials, however, have said publicly that they have yet to find any electronic problems in Toyota cars.
Daniel Smith, NHTSA's associate administrator for enforcement, told a panel of the National Academy of Sciences last month that the agency's sudden-acceleration probe had yet to find any car defects beyond those identified by the company: pedals entrapped by floor mats, and "sticky" accelerator pedals that are slow to return to idle.
"In spite of our investigations, we have not actually been able yet to find a defect" in electronic throttle-control systems, Mr. Smith told the scientific panel, which is looking into potential causes of sudden acceleration.
"We're bound and determined that if it exists we're going to find it," he added. "But as yet, we haven't found it."
Toyota officials haven't been briefed on NHTSA's findings, but they corroborate its own tests, said Mike Michels, the chief spokesman for Toyota Motor Sales. Toyota's downloads of event data recorders have found evidence of sticky pedals and pedal entrapment as well as driver error, which is characterized by no evidence of the brakes being depressed during an impact.
Some company officials say they are informally aware of the NHTSA results. But Toyota President Akio Toyoda has said the company won't blame customers for its problems as part of its public-relations response.
Toyota is still trying to repair damage to its reputation caused as much by disclosures that the company hid knowledge of safety problems with its vehicles as by the reports of sudden acceleration.
NHTSA levied a $16.4 million fine against Toyota earlier this year for failing to notify the agency in a timely manner about its sticky-accelerator issue. Toyota's handling of a rash of safety complaints involving high-profile models such as the hybrid Toyota Prius has prompted Congress to consider a far-reaching overhaul of U.S. auto-safety laws.
Last week, Toyota announced it had taken steps to improve its vehicle quality, including moving 1,000 engineers into a new group that will try to pin down problems. The Japanese auto maker also will extend development times by at least four weeks on new models to do more testing and will cut down on the use of contract engineers.Toyota showed reporters the inner workings of its labs, including how it has been testing its electronic throttle control module to find any malfunctions. The system is controlled by a main computer and has a second computer as a backup if the first fails. In either instance, failures should be noted in the car's main computer and result in engine power being cut.
The car maker also has tested its vehicles' responses to strong electromagnetic radiation, such as the waves generated by cellphones and radio towers, which some critics have said could be causing a malfunction. The only interference engineers have encountered after bombarding cars with electromagnetic waves is static on the car radio.
U.S. Reps. Bart Stupak (D., Mich.) and Henry Waxman (D., Calif.) have been critical of Toyota's efforts to track down alternative causes of unintended acceleration. They have said Toyota has been slow to react or evasive. Toyota has said it is doing everything in its power to respond to both Congress and customer complaints.
keep in mind the CHP incident was due to RX400h floormats being installed in an ES350 loaner car on top of carpetted mats. Thats a huge nono. Dealer's fault, no design defect.
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