View Full Version : Is the HBAR back?
I never used to put too much stock into the notion that a heavier barrel really made a HUGE difference in heat dissipation. It's logical that the heavy barrel would help.... But the January 2010 publication of those M4 barrel trials were DRAMATIC! (5 extra ounces of barrel for Quadruple the volume of full auto fire) I know the rate of fire on the test was not realistic, as even the author pointed out. But the results were no less amazing.
According to the article the issue arose from problems in Ghanny during extended fire fights. With the Army's desire to transition to M4A1 barrels, do you figure the heavier profiles will make a comeback?
ZeroDistortionNow
02-05-10, 07:43
I think that there is a benefit to a heavy barrel when the rifle is used for full auto or precision shots at long distance, I don't believe that too many people here would truly benefit from them though
ForTehNguyen
02-05-10, 07:46
hbar doesnt help with heat dissipation, it helps with heat capacity and barrel strength. It takes longer to heat up yes, but it takes longer to cool down
IMO the govt profile is too light....a medium contour (same OD of the barrel past the FSB, .750''?) would be a good compromise.
Weight and balance are relative. I have a 16" Colt HBAR with a long rail, and a UBR stock on it and it one of my fastest rifles across multiple targets according to the timer.
Compromises between weight, balance, and heat are all relative to the shooter and the task.
I like my HBAR.
Cameron
dookie1481
02-05-10, 13:10
I never used to put too much stock into the notion that a heavier barrel really made a HUGE difference in heat dissipation. It's logical that the heavy barrel would help.... But the January 2010 publication of those M4 barrel trials were DRAMATIC! (5 extra ounces of barrel for Quadruple the volume of full auto fire) I know the rate of fire on the test was not realistic, as even the author pointed out. But the results were no less amazing.
According to the article the issue arose from problems in Ghanny during extended fire fights. With the Army's desire to transition to M4A1 barrels, do you figure the heavier profiles will make a comeback?
I spent 4.5 years as an infantryman in the Marine Corps and I fired my M16 on burst 2 times. The SAW is what is used to lay down suppressive fire, not the M4. They are trying use hardware to fix a software problem.
To answer your question, I think it is going to go the opposite route commercially. It seems everyone is clamoring for lightweight barrels now. Look at the anticipation of BCM's lightweight middy.
Jay
It seems everyone is clamoring for lightweight barrels now.
True... All good points... but the AR market is largely driven by users demands despite the fact that they will NEVER need the full ability of their weapons.... that and many dumb asses lock the AR up at night and use a bird gun for home defense.
I understand where lighter makes more sense for most shooters. But do you think the Army's philosophy change will turn the trend? I'll have to laugh if it does. Maybe these days what the Mil uses isn't the driver.... and it's all about the COSTA factor!:p
organdonor
02-05-10, 14:40
personally, I'd never buy an hbar unless it was for match shooting.
Given the market's movement, I don't see how anyone can argue that the HBAR is "back". That implies a heavy/thick barrel a hot item, either in public discussion or consumer purchases. I don't believe either of these is the case, especially given the market trend toward lighter weight, thinner profile barrels.
That being said, I'd like to see one of Noveske's N4 carbine barrels in that same fire-to-destruction test. The barrel contour he uses makes a lot more sense and I'm curious if the chrome-lining would help.
-B
Given the market's movement, I don't see how anyone can argue that the HBAR is "back".
What I'm getting at is... do you think the Army's shift will lead the sheep in another direction. ;)
I'm more interested in this notion as a student of human nature.
No sir. I don't think the military's choice of a slightly heavier barrel will impact civilian markets much, if at all. I realize that a significant portion of the firearms market likes to follow the military when innovations are made, but there's nothing innovative about a 5 oz heavier barrel. Consumers are pretty familiar with AR barrels by now. ;)
If the military really cared about running its carbines like machine guns, they'd investigate improving the bolt design and look into ABS carbon fiber finishes and related technologies to help dissipate barrel heat.
-B
I like HBAR because of the recoil absorbtion. I'll probably never have to carry mine around for long periods. At 16" with barely any equipment and a FF rail, it's no problem.
Thanks for the pics. I'll take it. IM sent :D
I never used to put too much stock into the notion that a heavier barrel really made a HUGE difference in heat dissipation. It's logical that the heavy barrel would help.... But the January 2010 publication of those M4 barrel trials were DRAMATIC! (5 extra ounces of barrel for Quadruple the volume of full auto fire) I know the rate of fire on the test was not realistic, as even the author pointed out. But the results were no less amazing.
According to the article the issue arose from problems in Ghanny during extended fire fights. With the Army's desire to transition to M4A1 barrels, do you figure the heavier profiles will make a comeback?
I don't see much practical need for M4A1 profile barrels on the commercial side even with those who like to mag dump lots of ammo in their registered receivers. But there may very well be a portion who think they have a practical need for it...
I spent 4.5 years as an infantryman in the Marine Corps and I fired my M16 on burst 2 times. The SAW is what is used to lay down suppressive fire, not the M4. They are trying use hardware to fix a software problem.
To answer your question, I think it is going to go the opposite route commercially. It seems everyone is clamoring for lightweight barrels now. Look at the anticipation of BCM's lightweight middy.
Jay
The MC move from the SAW toward the IAR may produce some more commercial demand for HBAR uppers, especially with the RR crowd. But I tend to agree with Jay in that the trend lately seems to be a demand for LW profile barrels on the commercial side.
It is a bit ironic that this thread shares the page with the "year of the pencil barrel" thread. :p
What I'm getting at is... do you think the Army's shift will lead the sheep in another direction. ;)
I'm more interested in this notion as a student of human nature.
:) You may have a point, the sheep may be another matter entirely...
...that and many dumb asses lock the AR up at night and use a bird gun for home defense.
What do you mean by this? I guess I'm a dumb ass when I count on the mossberg cruiser for HD. That in itself leads into a completely different topic. Also, I think it's odd that there is a "pencil barrel" thread and a "is HBAR back" thread. Pencil it is for me.
IMO the govt profile is too light....a medium contour (same OD of the barrel past the FSB, .750''?) would be a good compromise.
Yes, I agree.
Belmont31R
02-05-10, 21:04
HBAR is pointless on a fighting carbine. There is no need, and just adds weight.
What I'm getting at is... do you think the Army's shift will lead the sheep in another direction. ;)
I'm more interested in this notion as a student of human nature.
I think that the average consumer who couldn't tell a DPMS from a Noveske would be clamoring for those heavier barrels if that test ever gets to be common knowledge.
I doubt it would really affect the choice of an educated civilian consumer who knows his needs and buys accordingly like say, those who frequent this forum.
It really wouldn't surprise me if Bushmaster and DMPS (or whoever) saw increases in sales of rifles with heavy barrels as a result of that test.
HBAR - the new MILSPEC!
I like HBAR because of the recoil absorbtion.
That's true. I actually shot my old 20" HBAR today. I love to prone out and pick off the gongs with it.
I like out-shooting all the guys with their M4s topped off with all the optics, red dots, HUDs and lasers using my 20" HBAR and iron sights at the local gravel pit. It's even more fun with my M14 :D
crazymoose
02-06-10, 04:27
I've always preferred the medium and heavy barrel contours to the pencil barrels. Never found them tiring to use, even in extended sessions. They are not as quick to transition from target to target, but aimed, rapid fire is faster with them, for me at least.
I like out-shooting all the guys with their M4s topped off with all the optics, red dots, HUDs and lasers using my 20" HBAR and iron sights at the local gravel pit. It's even more fun with my M14 :D
No kidding. Too many ARs are owned by gadgeteers and not marksmen.
HBAR seems fine until you have to ***actually use*** the weapon for prolonged periods of time. All that weight forward of the balance point gets very heavy very quick. It also slows down presentations and transitions.
But the hobbyists don't know what they don't know, so they think mo heavier barrel = mo better.
Great timing for this thread as I am trying to figure out a build off my Colt A2 HBAR...
It looks like DD is the way to go for a flat top upper, but haven't nailed down the rest yet... I am looking forward to this project and am hoping to build a tack driver.
Question... Is the 20" HBAR Colt 1/7 barrel as good as I have read that it is in the accuracy department? I have read guys getting great results out to 400-500 yds?!?!?
If its not, I wont bother with the build and will just buy a Stealth upper...
QuietShootr
02-06-10, 08:51
I like the medium weight barrels like the MRP has. HBARs are too heavy IMO, and most of my shooting is done suppressed - and I don't think pencil barrels are appropriate for a suppressed weapon.
TD2 and TD3 of a good class could make one regret the heavy barrel. Not for me. Ounces=pounds, etc.
Robb Jensen
02-06-10, 11:46
I believe the medium contour or SOCOM M4 contour is best for a full auto M4. It heat us slowest, can handle the heat longer and is stiffer and harder to bend/droop vs. a standard M4 proflie. Heavy barrels do take longer to cool down.
However for my use a .650" contour is just fine on my competition 3gun rifles. I shoot them very hard for essentially 20-30 seconds at a time at matches and usually 45min between stages so there's plenty of time for them to cool down.
On my suppressed guns I like a heavier barrel to minimize droop and impact shift when using a suppressor.
Pessimists will be asking for M4A1 profiles once they see those videos. :D
I think most people bolt enough stuff on a AR to egual the weight difference between a pencil barrel and a straight bull barrel. Balance is more important than weight.
I love going back to my old HBAR A2. Have stayed away from it until I started service rifle matches.
That said, went pencil for wife gun. Very handy, but I have a happy switch on mine, so I will stick with the heavier contour barrel.
dookie1481
02-06-10, 20:02
I believe the medium contour or SOCOM M4 contour is best for a full auto M4. It heat us slowest, can handle the heat longer and is stiffer and harder to bend/droop vs. a standard M4 proflie. Heavy barrels do take longer to cool down.
However for my use a .650" contour is just fine on my competition 3gun rifles. I shoot them very hard for essentially 20-30 seconds at a time at matches and usually 45min between stages so there's plenty of time for them to cool down.
On my suppressed guns I like a heavier barrel to minimize droop and impact shift when using a suppressor.
If it were regularly used to fire FA I would agree with you.
Admittedly this thread is about the use of FA as it relates to CQB, but many of the principles are sound regardless of the type of operation being conducted. http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5606084761/m/7531053692
Bottom line: it has it's uses but IMO the usefulness of a light barrel is better than the ability of an HBAR to absorb more heat.
Jay
I saw a thread on ARF today where the boys were talking about the SOCOM barrel....
Some of the guys are holding their ground with the "no need for it" opinion. It looked to be about half and half. I'm surprised. ;)
RogerinTPA
03-08-10, 21:33
HBAR is pointless on a fighting carbine. There is no need, and just adds weight.
Agreed. High rates of fire, does not improve hit probability. Folks should be concentrating on accuracy of fire, and not the volume of it, unless it's for an MG, and accuracy still counts.
Combat_Diver
03-08-10, 23:45
I don't think the Army needs to go that route. The weapon rarely gets to fired at extreme rates like that. It is carried by an overburrden soldier already. If the leadership needs to improve something, improve base protective measures.
CD
Hate Hbars as much as I ever did.
We can only use Colt, so I can chose from an issued M4A1, or my personally owned 6940, either of my 6920's, or my 6721 HBAR. I ran the M4A1 as a primary for several years, however I always seem to prefer my 6721 and have been running it exclusively for a working carbine for the last year or so. Not too mention it is fully dressed and I also run a Redi-Mag so it is one heavy carbine. Recoil management is great for rapid fire accuracy and my transitional times from target to target is negligible on a timer. The accuracy of this 1:9 HBAR is awesome with the issued 55gr TRU ammo and it also does very very well up to and including 75gr TAP. I frequently run it for 8-10 hour days and I actually like the added weight of the rifle.
What I'm getting at is... do you think the Army's shift will lead the sheep in another direction. ;)
I'm more interested in this notion as a student of human nature.
I think if we take into consideration that FDE is the most popular color in the accessory range, and most owners live in green states, I would say the answer to your question is yes.
I have to admit...
Of the two extremes.... I'd take an Hbar over a MacDonald's drinking straw barrel....
But current profile M4 barrel is fine with me.
What I'm getting at is... do you think the Army's shift will lead the sheep in another direction. ;)
I'm more interested in this notion as a student of human nature.
I think people will. Look at all the people that must absolutely have a M4 contour barrel, just in case they get a M203.
But the January 2010 publication of those M4 barrel trials were DRAMATIC! (5 extra ounces of barrel for Quadruple the volume of full auto fire)
The "test" is significantly flawed. Shooting a CLOSED BOLT machine gun to mechanical failure is pointless unless it fails before cookoff temp.
A closed bolt rifle fails to be safe/functional from a fighting standpoint when the barrel reaches cookoff temp.
The heavy barrel will help a little with chamber temps but will also hold the heat longer as well. The HBAR doesn't dissipate heat better it has more mass to soak more heat up. The barrel failure point could be fixed by moving 2oz from the front of the barrel to behind the gas block.
dwhitehorne
03-10-10, 11:45
I think everyone is missing the point. Think of the marketing. Now you can kill more zombies with our "New and Improved MILSPEC SOCOM" barrel or maybe a new phrase of "Special Operations Mil Spec". They will sell a ton of them:D
I think Hbars are great when I don't have to carry them any length of time. David
Thomas M-4
03-10-10, 11:50
The "test" is significantly flawed. Shooting a CLOSED BOLT machine gun to mechanical failure is pointless unless it fails before cookoff temp.
A closed bolt rifle fails to be safe/functional from a fighting standpoint when the barrel reaches cookoff temp.
The heavy barrel will help a little with chamber temps but will also hold the heat longer as well. The HBAR doesn't dissipate heat better it has more mass to soak more heat up. The barrel failure point could be fixed by moving 2oz from the front of the barrel to behind the gas block.
That would be the most optimum way to solve the problem. I wonder why it is not being implemented into production?
I think everyone is missing the point. Think of the marketing. Now you can kill more zombies with our "New and Improved MILSPEC SOCOM" barrel or maybe a new phrase of "Special Operations Mil Spec". They will sell a ton of them:D
I think Hbars are great when I don't have to carry them any length of time. David
Exactly.
That is the whole point. The barrel profile debate has been done to death, and not at all what I was getting at.
Belmont31R
03-10-10, 15:55
That would be the most optimum way to solve the problem. I wonder why it is not being implemented into production?
Or just get people to understand a long arm is not a machine gun, and take burst completely out.
Rifleman are supposed to take somewhat precision shots. Auto or burst is a last ditch "prarie fire" type of deal. A gov profile barrel will easily stand up for what a rifleman is supposed to do. Even a gov profile barrel will withstand a basic load of ammo.
This is why we have machine guns that fire open bolt and have quick change barrels.
A SOCOM barrel or HBAR is just a band aid on a wound but never addresses why you needed a band aid in the first place.
Thomas M-4
03-10-10, 16:00
Or just get people to understand a long arm is not a machine gun, and take burst completely out.
Rifleman are supposed to take somewhat precision shots. Auto or burst is a last ditch "prarie fire" type of deal. A gov profile barrel will easily stand up for what a rifleman is supposed to do. Even a gov profile barrel will withstand a basic load of ammo.
This is why we have machine guns that fire open bolt and have quick change barrels.
A SOCOM barrel or HBAR is just a band aid on a wound but never addresses why you needed a band aid in the first place.
Yea pretty much knew all of that.
The question I was asking was why go to the socom H-barrel if there is away to do it and save 3.oz
Belmont31R
03-10-10, 16:02
Yea pretty much knew all of that.
The question I was asking was why go to the socom H-barrel if there is away to do it and save 3.oz
Gov profile works just fine for what its designed to do, and what rifleman are supposed to do.
Changing barrel profiles to better handle heat doesn't fix the core of the problem.
The M4 in the test fired over 200% of a basic load before it failed, and that was with mag dump after mag dump on FA.
Well then forget my post about the usefulness of the test...
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-10-10, 16:22
It is a never ending cycle.
Thomas M-4
03-10-10, 16:49
Gov profile works just fine for what its designed to do, and what rifleman are supposed to do.
Changing barrel profiles to better handle heat doesn't fix the core of the problem.
The M4 in the test fired over 200% of a basic load before it failed, and that was with mag dump after mag dump on FA.
I know I show the video very :cool: seeing what the standard M-4 being abused to the point of failure. I should say I don't think that it needs to changed and yes the m-4 is not an open bolt quick barrel change belt fed machine gun I know.;)
I guess I am just barking up the wrong tree. :rolleyes:
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