Question for guys that have used Model 1 Sales, or M&A kits

[C'yotecaller]

For those of you who have either built a rifle out of either a M1S, or M&A kit, which lowers do you find match up to your supplied kit uppers color wise. Reason I ask is becuase I am getting a second one to put together and am trying to decide which lower to get. I want one who's shade of black matches up to the upper as close as possible. My last kit was a M1S kit I built on a Double Star lower. My Double Star lower is quite noticably lighter than the upper. While the upper is a nice dark black, almost shiny finish. My double star lower was a lighter, kinda flat grey looking color. I do know that the current Double Star lowers are now made by a different supplier, are made darker, and with a teflon finish. So I may just buy another one.
But for those of you who have used either Model 1 Sales or M&A kits, which lowers did you use and how did the shade of black match up. I just want to know which ones look the best. Rock River, Bushmaster, Olympic, Stag, Superior, Eagle, etc. Thanks

[RWBlue]

While we are asking about Model 1 Sales or M&A kits; how is their fit, finish, reliability?

I assume they are not tier 1, but are they tier 2 or 3.

[C'yotecaller]

Most people will try and say that they are bottom teir, but I woudn't agree with that at all. I have a close friend in Eastern Kentucky who spent 20 years in the Army as a armorer, and then the last 9 as a Green Beret. He is now in a wheel chair from combat related injurys and to make a little extra cash he builds AR-15's from Model 1 and M&A kits for alot of the Police Departments in Kentucky for half the cost it would take them to buy the usual tier #1 rifles.
He knows alot of the people at each company personally and swears buy them. He said all the parts are made by government contractors, most under the direction of FN, however no parts are marked FN as they can only by contract supply "official" FN rifles to the government. He told me though that the armoriers in the 7th Special Forces Group (his last group) order alot of replacement parts from the same people that fully supply Model 1 and M&A.
He built me a M4 style carbine about 3 years ago on a Double Star lower (which is based right there in Winchester, Ky. So he could just go pick one up). I have about 2,000 rounds thru it without a single miss-fire or jam. It runs like a million bucks, feeds all kinds of ammo, and holds very nice tight groups. I have an Uncle with a Colt Law Enforcement carbine, and to quote him after a day of shooting together and trying out each others rifles, he told me "I Like Yours Better!". Yeah, and mine cost $550, his cost $1300.
One note that my friend made, is while they both have very high quality parts, they are often put together rather poorly. He says each kit he gets he tears back down himself and completely rebuilds it himself. He said he has never gotten a M&A parts kits that had the right head spacing in it. They were all either to tight or to loose. He takes the barrel and barrel nut off and re does it to much tighter tollerences. So even though the kits come with the upper "completely assembled" he highly recommends tearing it down and re-doing it yourself. So if your not very compitent with the assembly of an AR-15 and dont have the proper tools, you may run into issues. I think most negative experiances come from people who simply put the lower together and think they are good to go with the factory shipped upper assembly.
One final note M&A parts use Wilson barrels. Model 1 uses ER Shaw. My friend said he would take an ER Shaw barrel over a Wilson any day, and mainly orders from Model 1, but he has used both quite often.
With the wonderful experiance I have had with my rifle. All my future rifles will be kits guns assembled by my friend.

[One Shot]

I've used Model 1 uppers with Bushmaster lowers and have zero problems with that combination. As to matching up colors, they're all supposed to have the same basic black coloring but we all know how that goes. If you have trouble with matching the colors, check with a friendly gunsmith or gun dealer in your area. They can get you replacement parts so that the stuff will all match up together. You can get grips, shoulder stocks and so on as individual parts from the same supplier and replace those that do not match on your present rifle. You can keep the replaced parts to use later on to match to other rifles/parts. I have 3.5 AR-15 type rifles right now (A complete extra upper without a lower of its own) which means that soon I will have a 4th one in my armory. These rifles are so much fun in that we have the option to pick, choose and match up different combination of parts any way that we want.

[xenophobe]

Can anyone say...

NESARD!!!

Anyways, please continue...

[C'yotecaller]

Whats Nesard mean?

[C4IGrant]

While we are asking about Model 1 Sales or M&A kits; how is their fit, finish, reliability?

I assume they are not tier 1, but are they tier 2 or 3.

I have seen very few kits (if any) that I would personally use. Below is a pick of Model 1 Sales BCG. The screws did not have loctite on them and the carrier key was not staked. After just a couple hundred rounds, the screws worked themselves loose. M1S belongs in the tier 4 group IMHO.


C4


http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/Model1%20Sales%20BCG.jpg

[Army Chief]

Don't really want to open this particular can of worms, but as I understand it, the whole Shaw versus Wilson barrel debate is sort of meaningless, isn't it? I was under the impression that these two companies provided unfinished barrels to a pretty wide spectrum of vendors, and that it was the actual finish work that really determined whether the end component was actually worth mounting or not. Not so?

Any way you slice it, I find it very, very difficult to find much comfort in the quality and serviceability of parts that come from unknown vendors, held to unknown standards, being backed by companies that know little or nothing about producing MILSPEC weapons. Not saying that it is impossible to get a decent rifle from a parts kit, but you're definitely going to be swimming upstream. For me, long-term headaches just aren't offset by the near-term cost savings.

Chief

[C4IGrant]

Don't really want to open this particular can of worms, but as I understand it, the whole Shaw versus Wilson barrel debate is sort of meaningless, isn't it? I was under the impression that these two companies provided unfinished barrels to a pretty wide spectrum of vendors, and that it was the actual finish work that really determined whether the end component was actually worth mounting or not. Not so?

Any way you slice it, I find it very, very difficult to find much comfort in the quality and serviceability of parts that come from unknown vendors, held to unknown standards, being backed by companies that know little or nothing about producing MILSPEC weapons. Not saying that it is impossible to get a decent rifle from a parts kit, but you're definitely going to be swimming upstream. For me, long-term headaches just aren't offset by the near-term cost savings.

Chief



Your post is very accurate and the two companies mentioned make barrels for just about everyone.

The question I always ask is if the a company doesn't follow the TDP, then what standard do they follow? The simple answer is that they follow the standard that saves them the most money.

While the TDP is not perfect, it is the standard. If a company wants to go above the standard then great, but going below it is a bad idea.



C4

[Hootbro]

Only complaint I have had with M1S is that their springs they use are hit or miss. I had takedown detent springs that were oversized or were coiled spaced so tight that they would not compress. Rifle buffer spring was also a weak offshore import and nowhere near mil-spec.

M&A sent me a full auto carbine kit when I ordered a semi-auto one. Their customer service sucked as they wanted shipping back on my dime. Eventually sold the kit back on Ebay when it was allowed.

Hootbro

[C'yotecaller]

I agree with alot of what you guys are trying to say. I still beleive there actual physical parts are just as good as about anybody's. With a few small exceptions. The problem doesnt ly with actual parts but the "build" and how they put them together. And your right, they probably rush thru dozens of upper reciever assemblies an hour to max profits. But the parts are still good.
All I know is with my current situation of having my buddy re-build it for me from the ground up, all the little things M1S or M&A didn't do right get corrected. Now whether or not he actually replaces some parts I dont know and will need to ask him. He has a room with about 200 of every little part and spring found in the AR-15 rifle. It looks like a flippin' factory. So wether he swappes some parts out for better ones he has I am uncertain of and will have to ask him. But the finished rifle I have built by him from a Model 1 kit runs better, looks better (except for the dang lowers color of blackish-grey), and has a tighter fit to it than any of my friends AR's. Even my buddy with a brand new Bushmaster wants my builder to hook him up with a kit gun.

And the note about the Ershaw vs. the Wilson. My friend never said a single negative about wilson barrels. He likes them. He just simply prefers Ershaw barrels.

Now back to the ORIGINAL QUESTION: Those of you with these kits. Which lower reciever did you use, and how did the black finish match up to the upper reciever?

[UVvis]

I used a mega lower, and the upper I got from M1S had a similar finish, though it isn't as nice as any of my other guns.

My parts were NOT as good as anyone elses. Many of the lower parts were soft. The bolt catch got badly dinged up from the bolt to the point I couldn't close the bolt with the release. The upper itself wasn't machined all that well, so one of my gunsmith/machinist friends squared it off. The finish on the barrel and front sight base were nice, except that the barrel wasn't finished under the front sight base, which we noticed when we had to take the front sight base off to get the gas system leaks out. The list goes on...

It would have been cheaper for me to buy a BCM or Sabre upper and not have to worry about it, but I got it as a learning project. It works well now. The barrel is on the lower end of blaster grade guns I have.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, just my observations. I wouldn't buy one for a serious use gun, but I did learn a good deal about the AR15 system from that kit.

If you count the labor in fixing stuff into the equation, it wouldn't have been worth it.

[QuietShootr]

Can anyone say...

NESARD!!!

Anyways, please continue...


Means fat, fried-chicken-eatin' bitch selling you cheap-ass Chinese knockoff parts.

[C'yotecaller]

To bad all parts are made in the USA

[BravoCompanyUSA]

For those of you who have either built a rifle out of either a M1S, or M&A kit, which lowers do you find match up to your supplied kit uppers color wise. Reason I ask is becuase I am getting a second one to put together and am trying to decide which lower to get. I want one who's shade of black matches up to the upper as close as possible. My last kit was a M1S kit I built on a Double Star lower. My Double Star lower is quite noticably lighter than the upper. While the upper is a nice dark black, almost shiny finish. My double star lower was a lighter, kinda flat grey looking color. I do know that the current Double Star lowers are now made by a different supplier, are made darker, and with a teflon finish. So I may just buy another one.
But for those of you who have used either Model 1 Sales or M&A kits, which lowers did you use and how did the shade of black match up. I just want to know which ones look the best. Rock River, Bushmaster, Olympic, Stag, Superior, Eagle, etc. Thanks

My standard answer to these types of questions is; nothing about the AR15 was designed, mfg or built for quality aesthetics.

That aside, if you’re trying to match shade of black anodizing; it will honestly be hit or miss. More hit than miss, depending on how critical your eye is. Big companies like the ones you mention can often have a variety of suppliers for a product like the upper receiver. If you’re going to keep assembly lines moving, there are way too many supplier production shortfalls in this industry to stick with only one (even if you're only going to use them once in a while). Like wise each shop that is machining the upper will probably have a variety of plating companies to do anodizing. So you have a variety of variables that enter into even the best thought out scenario. For my use most blacks are black enough for me. However depending on your expectations, you may want to visit a gun show so you can do a hands on color match.

[Snake RAH]

The problem of color match can be solved by a $2 can of Krylon or Rustoleum and 5 minutes of work.

Might not be the answer you're looking for, but for all the aftermarket finishes you can get (Norrels, duracoat, gunkote, cerakote, ubercoolkoat, etc.), you're not married to mismatched guns if you don't want mismatched parts.

None of the M16s I was ever issued had the same finish top to bottom, front to back.

[Johnnyvegas]

I built a 24 inch varmint gun with an M&A parts kit, and a DPMS lower, and couldn't be happier. The kit parts were of good quality, carrier was staked properly, black insert extractor spring, finish between upper and lower were close enough I couldn't tell a difference. The gun shoots great, I broke the barrel in with RORG surplus, and it was doing 3/4 MOA or better with that, using my handloads it'll put five shots under a dime at 100 yards untill the barrel starts to foul, and it hasnt malfed. ONCE.............I can't say the same for my Bushy M4gery, I had extraction issues with that from go with everything except M193 (dropped extraction, since fixed).
I can't speak for everyone, and maybe my experience was the exception rather than the rule, but I'd do business with M&A again.


John