View Full Version : HK MR556 MSRP and Dealer cost
variablebinary
02-06-10, 20:34
Dealer: HK MR556-A5 RIFLE $2,280.59
MSRP: $2,995.00
Now you know...
Now you know...
And knowing is half the battle.
Sorry, couldn't help myself. :p
Once the initial buying stampeed slows I'm hoping the sale price will be under $2500. However, I'm the type of guy that will wait at least 5 years for the design to mature a tad on the open market before I dish out that kind of cash for it. It seems like every new rifle on the market undergoes a number of changes to the design in the first 5yrs or more.
BTW, does anyone know what the dealer price is for the 5.56 SCAR?
at that price ,I don't see me getting one ,I guess I will stick with My COLT M4
Iraq Ninja
02-07-10, 11:57
However, I'm the type of guy that will wait at least 5 years for the design to mature a tad on the open market before I dish out that kind of cash for it. It seems like every new rifle on the market undergoes a number of changes to the design in the first 5yrs or more.
The main features of this rifle have been around for over five years. We need to see how this version compares the the 416. I suspect they are very similar, at least with the upper receiver. It should be good to go, if this is what you need.
The main features of this rifle have been around for over five years. We need to see how this version compares the the 416. I suspect they are very similar, at least with the upper receiver. It should be good to go, if this is what you need.
If that is the case, then I would be good to go once the price gets close enough to the dealer cost. I've always been impressed with the H&K equipment that I've owned and used in the past. I prefer the M16 style charging handle, and I still wonder why moving to a left/right side handle in SCAR/ACR/XCR is an innovation. The M16 charging handle is ambidextrous, reliable, and it is out of the way when not in use. Perhaps because the side mounted charging handle has the forward assist integrated into it?
However, as WarpigM-4 has said, I may have a hard time justifying going with a piston AR versus a quality DI system and I might just stick with my Colt and some BCM builds.
gtmtnbiker98
02-07-10, 12:12
at that price ,I don't see me getting one ,I guess I will stick with My COLT M4Me too.
The Dumb Gun Collector
02-07-10, 17:12
$2500 is basically reasonable. This is much better than the $4000 a lot of folks (probably working for other piston companies, LOL) were predicting over at HKPRO.
I have said from the beginning it needs to be competitive with the SCAR, not DI guns or hobby piston guns. At $2500 it is about right.
I already have a 10 inch 416 upper on my M16A1, and it is excellent. I already have a COLT M4gery, and it is excellent.
variablebinary
02-07-10, 18:51
$2500 is basically reasonable. .
Reasonable? By what standard. It lacks the features of the SCAR, but costs the same. It's the same complaint I have against LWRC.
Feature to dollar ratio, it lags behind the SCAR, XCR and ACR.
The MR556 is a freaking brick as well. People bitch about the ACR; the MR556 is laughably heavy. Even a 20" Colt HBAR MT6700C is lighter.
Multi-Cal like the SCAR? No
Lighter than a SCAR? LOL
Folding Stock like the SCAR? No
QD barrel like the SCAR? No
So how is reasonable being defined here? What makes a MR556 worth $1300 more than a 6920 with a decent quality rail? What gives it parity with the SCAR. No stamping HK on the side is not a good reason
On the upside, the price is high enough to not directly piss in LWRC's cheerios however, so I am sure that camp will be pleased.
The Dumb Gun Collector
02-07-10, 20:34
I think of the 416 and the SCAR as, essentially, competing for the same market. That being people who want extremely high-quality 5.56 rifles that are civilian versions of what the Special Ops guys use. If HK had priced it at 4k, like some were suggesting, it would have been absurd.
As far as a SCAR vs. 416 debate, I like em' both. However, the SCAR is a non-starter for me because there is no NFA version available to civilians. My 416 upper runs like a top on my M16A1 lower.
And as far as the Ruger piston gun, POF, Bushmaster stuff, XCR and the LWRC, I see those guns as competing for a different segment of the market.
variablebinary
02-07-10, 20:49
I think of the 416 and the SCAR as, essentially, competing for the same market. That being people who want extremely high-quality 5.56 rifles that are civilian versions of what the Special Ops guys use. If HK had priced it at 4k, like some were suggesting, it would have been absurd.
1. More "Special Ops" guys use Colt M4's so I am not sure what correlation is being drawn. Does that suddenly mean the 6920 with a KAC rail should be $2500 since it remains the weapon of choice for "special ops guys"?
2. Lined up side by side, feature for feature, what makes the MR556 in the same class as the SCAR? If all we are looking for is the ability to shoot 5.56, even a $900 Daniel Defense can do that.
3. So because some internet types speculated the MR556 was going to be $4k, that makes $2500 a bargain? I guess Magpul should have said the Masada was going to be $10k then.
Reasonable? By what standard. It lacks the features of the SCAR, but costs the same. It's the same complaint I have against LWRC.
Feature to dollar ratio, it lags behind the SCAR, XCR and ACR.
The MR556 is a freaking brick as well. People bitch about the ACR; the MR556 is laughably heavy. Even a 20" Colt HBAR MT6700C is lighter.
Multi-Cal like the SCAR? No
Lighter than a SCAR? LOL
Folding Stock like the SCAR? No
QD barrel like the SCAR? No
So how is reasonable being defined here? What makes a MR556 worth $1300 more than a 6920 with a decent quality rail? What gives it parity with the SCAR. No stamping HK on the side is not a good reason
On the upside, the price is high enough to not directly piss in LWRC's cheerios however, so I am sure that camp will be pleased.
I don't think all of the market is too keen on throwing out 60 years of design evolution just yet. After so many years of using M16 variants, I still prefer its manual of arms. I've shot the SCAR a few times, and for me it is just another alternative. I think what perked my interest in the H&K was that the 416 equaled the SCAR in the extreme dust test. One of my few complaints about the M4 is that it doesn't handle dust all that well. The 416 seems to address this issue and is a true incremental improvement on the M4 platform, while retaining all the design features I like.
The only downside to the H&K is the weight, which will be a hard sell for me. The price does come into play as well, but I'm willing to dish out the extra cash for "measurable" performance improvements and the strong possibility of excellent quality. If I were to go beyond a top tier DI rifle, personally I would bypass LWRC and the other piston ARs for a surer investiment in the H&K. The multicaliber option doesn't concern me that much. Other than 7.62x39, I have no interest in the other odd-ball calibers in the 5.56 platform......and I have yet to find a rifle with a straight magwell that accepts M16 magazines and will reliably feed the 7.62 which requires a more extreme curvature throughout its mag length. Folding stock, other that easier storage of the rifle not an issue for me either as I see little benefit in firing the weapon without the support of at least a collapsed stock.
To each his own.
Hunter Rose
02-07-10, 21:38
While the military version is switchable, is the SCAR 16S civilian version multi-caliber? I haven't seen any news about FN planning barrel/caliber conversions for it. Based off all the SHOT news, it looks like FN is just selling the SCAR-L nd SCAR-H as complete rifles for now. Anyone know anything different?
As for the MR556, $2500 for it seems reasonable, considering it, along with the SCAR, are the only combat proven/military adopted advanced piston carbine designs. People bring up the LWRC, XCR, and ACR in comparison, but I think I would take my chances with the proven designs. Granted, for 99% of civilian shooters, a DI AR is more than adequate, but having more choices is never a bad thing. Extreme reliability, insensitivity to dust/dirt, excellent barrel life, and seamless manual of arms transition are what the MR556/416 has going for it. If that's not enough value for you, get the SCAR. I think either is an excellent choice.
The Marine Corps thinks there's benefits to the 416 IAR over the SCAR, so to dismiss it as not in the same league as the SCAR is a stretch in my opinion.
The Dumb Gun Collector
02-07-10, 21:50
"1. More "Special Ops" guys use Colt M4's so I am not sure what correlation is being drawn. Does that suddenly mean the 6920 with a KAC rail should be $2500 since it remains the weapon of choice for "special ops guys"?"
Okay....
crazymoose
02-07-10, 21:53
Granted, for 99% of civilian shooters, a DI AR is more than adequate, but having more choices is never a bad thing. Extreme reliability, insensitivity to dust/dirt, excellent barrel life, and seamless manual of arms transition are what the MR556/416 has going for it. If that's not enough value for you, get the SCAR. I think either is an excellent choice.
People keep talking about the 416 like it's the new favorite of the various special forces communities. If I'm not mistaken, the consensus of the rumor mill is that Delta is no longer using it.
The one plausible advantage used to sell piston guns is the ability to deal with various barrel lengths and suppressors, but the adjustable gas blocks have now given DI guns this ability. I agree with the other poster who observed that the DI platform just seems to fill the SF market niche better, given the inherent weight advantage and the new equipment available for DI rifles.
ForTehNguyen
02-07-10, 23:32
guess people cant complain ACR/SCAR is overpriced. I thought spec ops went with HK416 mainly because it worked the most reliably on suppressors vs DI
I prefer the M16 style charging handle, and I still wonder why moving to a left/right side handle in SCAR/ACR/XCR is an innovation. The M16 charging handle is ambidextrous, reliable, and it is out of the way when not in use. Perhaps because the side mounted charging handle has the forward assist integrated into it?
I personally like the way the charging handle is set up on the SCAR. Sure it isn't ambidextrous, but you can configure it to either side, and more importantly you do not have to alter your sight picture to manually cycle the weapon if the need were to arise.
and more importantly you do not have to alter your sight picture to manually cycle the weapon if the need were to arise.
That's also a non issue for me. Part of my training when performing reloads is to purposely get off the tunnel vision of the sight picture in order to get a quick scan for additional threats, quick scene sizeup, and then determine if I should be moving and where. Getting off the sight picture can also speed up your reloads since it becomes more difficult to multitask under stress. Reaquiring the sight picture only takes about 1/8 of a second on the M4. If I were on a static range with loosely secured magazines, with predetermined locations of the badguys, my cover, and how many shots I should put into each threat........then yeah, keeping the tunnel vision of constant sight picture would help.
Lastly, if you are a right handed shooter and you have your stock full extended, you can still charge the M4 without moving your cheek weld or your sight picture. If I'm shooting left handed I'll be fumbling more anyhow, so I'm not going to divide my attention by trying to maintain the sight picture.
Don't get me wrong, the SCAR is an excellent weapon, but for those of us that have used M4s for years and will likely be carrying them for at least another 20, the H&K is a better choice.
LWRC and the HK416 do not offer a monolithic rail and this has kept me from buying one for that amount of money.
And no, a rail that butts to the front of the upper to give a monolith look is not a real monolith.
I'd rather own a LMT MRP or a Colt monolith.
The one plausible advantage used to sell piston guns is the ability to deal with various barrel lengths and suppressors, but the adjustable gas blocks have now given DI guns this ability. I agree with the other poster who observed that the DI platform just seems to fill the SF market niche better, given the inherent weight advantage and the new equipment available for DI rifles.
100% spot on.
Dealer: HK MR556-A5 RIFLE $2,280.59
MSRP: $2,995.00
Now you know...
How about the uppers, their supposed to be selling those as well?
Razorhunter
02-08-10, 14:34
Hk needs to offer ALL NFA bbl lengths with the MR556, or AT LEAST the 14.5 for those who want to pin/weld the FH for non NFA purposes.
Like the SCAR, the 16" civvi bbl sticking WAY out of the undersized (ie TOO SHORT) rail just doesn't work on the MR556.
Reasonable? By what standard. It lacks the features of the SCAR, but costs the same. It's the same complaint I have against LWRC.
Feature to dollar ratio, it lags behind the SCAR, XCR and ACR.
I would not include the XCR in that trio. I know of no military or police unit that uses XCRs, and from what I have heard from many instructors and students, the XCRs have trouble making it through carbine classes at a much higher ratio than a top brand AR like a Colt, BCM, etc.
The Mil versions of the HK416 has been used in combat in harsh conditions. Can you say the same for the XCR?
I also would not include the ACR, because it is far from proven in production models.
I would not include the XCR in that trio. I know of no military or police unit that uses XCRs, and from what I have heard from many instructors and students, the XCRs have trouble making it through carbine classes at a much higher ratio than a top brand AR like a Colt, BCM, etc.
The Mil versions of the HK416 has been used in combat in harsh conditions. Can you say the same for the XCR?
I also would not include the ACR, because it is far from proven in production models.
That isn't his point.
His point is he is comparing the most modern assault rifles and how the HK416 doesn't have modern features like ambi and monolith.
The current state of the art in assault rifles is represented by the ACR, SCAR, XCR, FN2000, and the
AR15 Monolith.
The LWRC and HK416 are not in this group of the elite.
The Dumb Gun Collector
02-08-10, 18:59
I think his point was that "the Elite" chose the 416 and the SCAR. The XCR, FN2000, ACR, not so much. Although I, who am decidedly unelite, like all these guns.
I think his point was that "the Elite" chose the 416 and the SCAR. The XCR, FN2000, ACR, not so much. Although I, who am decidedly unelite, like all these guns.
Shot the XCR and FS2000 quite a bit. My impressions were that the 2000 starts to hicup quite a bit after only a little dust exposure. The XCR that I put about 1000rds downrange had the ejector and barrel loosen up. Not what I would call elite either.
So, a monolith rail represents an "elite" rifle? Frankly, I'd rather rate a rifle as being "elite" based on its ability to withstand extreme environmental conditions and keep performing well with high round count shooting sessions.... not how plentiful its attachment points for accessory toys are.
The Dumb Gun Collector
02-08-10, 19:39
That's just crazy talk!;)
Hunter Rose
02-08-10, 20:34
That isn't his point.
His point is he is comparing the most modern assault rifles and how the HK416 doesn't have modern features like ambi and monolith.
The current state of the art in assault rifles is represented by the ACR, SCAR, XCR, FN2000, and the
AR15 Monolith.
The LWRC and HK416 are not in this group of the elite.
This one made me scratch my head, and say "Huh?" WTFO? So the point is not that a carbine is battle proven in harsh conditions (the point you were rebutting), but that it has modern features like a monolithic upper and ambi safeties?
That post made my head hurt.
That isn't his point.
His point is he is comparing the most modern assault rifles and how the HK416 doesn't have modern features like ambi and monolith.
The current state of the art in assault rifles is represented by the ACR, SCAR, XCR, FN2000, and the AR15 Monolith.
The LWRC and HK416 are not in this group of the elite.
I wouldn't put the XCR in any group I would call elite.
Design features are nice. Being combat proven or able to make it through a carbine class on a regular basis is much nicer.
I think his point was that "the Elite" chose the 416 and the SCAR. The XCR, FN2000, ACR, not so much. Although I, who am decidedly unelite, like all these guns.
Which "elite" chose the HK416?
This one made me scratch my head, and say "Huh?" WTFO? So the point is not that a carbine is battle proven in harsh conditions (the point you were rebutting), but that it has modern features like a monolithic upper and ambi safeties?
That post made my head hurt.
I was not rebutting any point about a gun being battle proven.
Shot the XCR and FS2000 quite a bit. My impressions were that the 2000 starts to hicup quite a bit after only a little dust exposure. The XCR that I put about 1000rds downrange had the ejector and barrel loosen up. Not what I would call elite either.
So, a monolith rail represents an "elite" rifle? Frankly, I'd rather rate a rifle as being "elite" based on its ability to withstand extreme environmental conditions and keep performing well with high round count shooting sessions.... not how plentiful its attachment points for accessory toys are.
The point is clear. The five guns I listed represent the state of the art in rifle design.
I am not saying they are or are not battle proven.
Which "elite" chose the HK416?
The US Army's number 1 gunfighter unit who the gun was designed for, the FBI HRT among others.
The point is clear. The five guns I listed represent the state of the art in rifle design.
I am not saying they are or are not battle proven.
Before we talk about state of the art design or convertable calibers, how about an XCR in one caliber that is as reliable and durable as a Colt 6920, never mind a 416 or a SCAR.
The Hk416 is four times more reliable than the M4, and dissipates heat better than anything Colt, FN or LWRC has made. I like the charging handle on the FN a bit better, but it doesn't have a lot of real estate up top. Overall I'd rather have an HK. HK's quality control is among the best in the industry, that's why FN and HK have been winning competitive contracts for years.
If I could buy an IAR off the shelf for 3k, I'd buy one because of the extended rail system. I don't know as though I'll go for a 416 until I see the longer rails become available.
The US Army's number 1 gunfighter unit who the gun was designed for, the FBI HRT among others.
Which will be or has been replaced by a SCAR.
Before we talk about state of the art design or convertable calibers, how about an XCR in one caliber that is as reliable and durable as a Colt 6920, never mind a 416 or a SCAR.
I'm well aware of that, Ed. :rolleyes:
The Hk416 is four times more reliable than the M4, and dissipates heat better than anything Colt, FN or LWRC has made.
It also weighs more and is harder on its bolt.
Yep, something always has to give with firearms. The 416 bolt groups I've seen were really solid, heavy duty units, haven't heard of anyone busting one up yet.
Before we talk about state of the art design or convertable calibers, how about an XCR in one caliber that is as reliable and durable as a Colt 6920, never mind a 416 or a SCAR.
Anyone know which instructors, if any, are regularly using an XCR to teach their classes with ?
It also weighs more and is harder on its bolt.
What is the problem with the bolt specifically, and do you know how premature its service life is in comparison to the M4 or SCAR? I've never heard exactly what the problem is, and if it is of significant concern to the rifle's service life. Given the robustness of the design, I would think that it would last longer than a typical DI bolt.
Yep, something always has to give with firearms. The 416 bolt groups I've seen were really solid, heavy duty units, haven't heard of anyone busting one up yet.
All gas piston AR15 are harder on their bolt than DI guns because no gas is pushing the bolt foward and the rear of the lugs have more grinding against the chamber extension.
All gas piston AR15 are harder on their bolt than DI guns because no gas is pushing the bolt foward and the rear of the lugs have more grinding against the chamber extension.
That's not to say that improvements in the design/material/material process have not been implemented, though.
HK is very thorough if anything.
Before we talk about state of the art design or convertable calibers, how about an XCR in one caliber that is as reliable and durable as a Colt 6920, never mind a 416 or a SCAR.
Not one of the guns I listed in the list of 5 is proven. And the HK416 is not proven either.
The HK416 has no adoption by any military as a standardized weapon (except maybe Norway), has seen an insignificant amount of combat time, and has been on the scene less than 5 years.
That's not to say that improvements in the design/material/material process have not been implemented, though.
HK is very thorough if anything.
All these material improvement are available in DI style AR15s and were pioneered by Colt and KAC, not HK.
Which will be or has been replaced by a SCAR.
And you know this, how exactly?
The unit we are discussing is separate from SOCCOM so SCAR plans do not effect them unless they separately decide that they want it.
It also weighs more and is harder on its bolt.
RE the HK416: Even still, the bolt lasts several times as long as that of the Colt M4.
Not one of the guns I listed in the list of 5 is proven. And the HK416 is not proven either.
The HK416 has no adoption by any military as a standardized weapon (except maybe Norway), has seen an insignificant amount of combat time, and has been on the scene less than 5 years.
The HK416 is proven with the elite unit of the US army that fires more rounds in practice than any other unit. And they have put it through its paces in combat. It is going into production in Turkey for that army, and is also being used by various special forces and SWAT units in Europe.
Who is using the XCR or the ACR again?
The F2000 is just a footnote as well, even though it is being used by the Slovenian army and the Belgian SF. I have several thousand rounds through an FS2000. I know of what I speak.
All the HK416 needs to be as ambi as some of the guns on your "elite" list is the retrofit of an ambi safety for an AR.
The XCR may have features, but it has had problems in high round training classes well out of proportions to the numbers of it that shows up in them despite people's claim of having thousands of trouble free rounds through them.
Does the XCR still require a several hundred round break-in to supposedly function reliably? How many "elite" guns require a several hundred round break-in?
Funny, ScottyRan, at one time you were down on the gun in this thread: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=195
Now you are labelling it as a "gun of the elite" even though no elite unit or military unit use it.
crazymoose
02-09-10, 14:41
The HK416 is proven with the elite unit of the US army that fires more rounds in practice than any other unit. And they have put it through its paces in combat. It is going into production in Turkey for that army, and is also being used by various special forces and SWAT units in Europe.
Apparently it acquitted itself so well that they have since ceased using it.
Who is using the XCR or the ACR again?
The F2000 is just a footnote as well, even though it is being used by the Slovenian army and the Belgian SF. I have several thousand rounds through an FS2000. I know of what I speak.
I have thousands of rounds through mine and am pleased with it. Different strokes, as they say.
All the HK416 needs to be as ambi as some of the guns on your "elite" list is the retrofit of an ambi safety for an AR.
The XCR may have features, but it has had problems in high round training classes well out of proportions to the numbers of it that shows up in them despite people's claim of having thousands of trouble free rounds through them.
Does the XCR still require a several hundred round break-in to supposedly function reliably? How many "elite" guns require a several hundred round break-in?
Funny, ScottyRan, at one time you were down on the gun in this thread: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=195
Now you are labelling it as a "gun of the elite" even though no elite unit or military unit use it.
I wouldn't put undue stock in who uses what when it comes to assessing weapons. Let's look at the AR-15 vs. the AR-18 as an example. Now, after 50 years of refinement and the proliferation of aftermarket parts, the AR-15 is certainly superior to the AR-18. However, as a fundamental operating system, I would say the AR-18 is the superior weapon. It delivers what people are looking for in piston AR-15s, and then some (IIRC, the XM8 had even fewer stoppages in the infamous "dust chamber test" than the 416), and it does so without the carrier tilt issues. Hell, it even sports a folding stock.
Apparently it acquitted itself so well that they have since ceased using it.
Yes, I've heard the rumor and it has no substance. It comes from a person who once claimed that the Marines were adopting a Glock in 45 GAP.
RE the FS2000:
I have thousands of rounds through mine and am pleased with it. Different strokes, as they say.
I have one and am please with it also. I even did a Pat Rogers class with only 2 malfunctions. But the gun has issues that if you put a magazine in with the bolt locked back the charging handle sometimes releases and goes half way home. If you pull the charging handle back at that point you get a doublefeed. The gun needs a much deeper notch for the charging handle to sit in on the receiver. Also, plastic charging handle knob has a tendency to break off.
(IIRC, the XM8 had even fewer stoppages in the infamous "dust chamber test" than the 416), and it does so without the carrier tilt issues. Hell, it even sports a folding stock.
The XM8 had other issues.
Look, what I am saying is that Scottyran categorized certain firearms as "guns of the elite" that he implied were better than the HK416 that major issues and little or no combat usage and adoption by military or LE units.
variablebinary
02-09-10, 15:10
I still have yet to hear a good reason why someone should pay $2500 for a nearly 16" 9lbs HK556, when it does zero better than 16" Colt 6920 with a decent rail.
If you say it's because Delta USED it at one point, that must mean a Colt M4A1 with a KAC rail is worth even more than $2500 because Delta USES it now, as does the entire United States military.
The point remains, you can pay $2500 for an MR556, and gain zero to dubious benefits over a 6920 at best. At worst you gain nothing but a loose rail, and 2+lbs of extra weight.
When someone buys a SCAR, XCR, or ACR, they get more features per dollar over MR556. To this, there is nothing to debate.
You would without question get tangible features that are not available on an MR556, and dramatic differences from any AR15, which I would assume is the very reason people seek out these firearms to begin with.
Not one of the guns I listed in the list of 5 is proven. And the HK416 is not proven either.
The HK416 has no adoption by any military as a standardized weapon (except maybe Norway), has seen an insignificant amount of combat time, and has been on the scene less than 5 years.
Do you know how many rounds the HK416 has fired in combat in the past 5 years?
The 416 may or may not be an improvement over the DI M-16, but if I had to run a suppressed SBR, I know which I would choose. In a heartbeat.
variablebinary
02-09-10, 15:17
Do you know how many rounds the HK416 has fired in combat in the past 5 years?
The 416 may or may not be an improvement over the DI M-16, but if I had to run a suppressed SBR, I know which I would choose. In a heartbeat.
Do you know how many many rounds were fired from an M4A1 in the last five years?A hell of a lot more than an HK416
As to your 2nd point, there is no MR556 SBR for sale. Yes you can pay $4000 for an SBR HK416 upper. I sure as hell wouldnt, but people are free to do what they like.
My LWRC upper and XCR both run great suppressed as SBR's, and they didn't cost $4000. I am missing the cool HK logo though. I guess that is just my loss.
Do you know how many many rounds were fired from an M4A1 in the last five years?A hell of a lot more than an HK416
Which proves what? There are at least 2000 M4s for every single HK416 in the US military
As to your 2nd point, there is no MR556 SBR for sale. Yes you can pay $4000 for an SBR HK416 upper. I sure as hell wouldnt, but people are free to do what they like.
My LWRC upper and XCR both run great suppressed as SBR's, and they didn't cost $4000. I am missing the cool HK logo though. I guess that is just my loss.
And what military or police units (other than maybe an individual cop here and there) are using XCRs?
The XCR is not in the same category as the HK416. It has not come close to providing the reliability and durability in high round count classes as a Colt 6920. It really doesn't matter if it is ambi, has a folding stock, or whatever, if it cannot first match a standard M4 in terms of reliability in high round count environments (not to mention the M4 not needing a brea-in period).
Do you know how many many rounds were fired from an M4A1 in the last five years?A hell of a lot more than an HK416
As to your 2nd point, there is no MR556 SBR for sale. Yes you can pay $4000 for an SBR HK416 upper. I sure as hell wouldnt, but people are free to do what they like.
My LWRC upper and XCR both run great suppressed as SBR's, and they didn't cost $4000. I am missing the cool HK logo though. I guess that is just my loss.
I suspect the HK416 has fired more rounds than the XCR. Oh, and in combat to boot ;)
I don't have a dog in this fight. I was calling into question the assertion that the HK416 hasn't been used in combat much. Maybe, maybe not. The circles who use them in combat don't exactly brag about it. We do know that there's an issue with "self cannibalization"
As for your LWRC and XCR, good on ya. I see no reason for gas piston ARs unless it's a suppressed short barrel variant that the original development of the Hk416 stemmed from, and thus I don't own a piston AR.
Hunter Rose
02-09-10, 18:36
Not one of the guns I listed in the list of 5 is proven. And the HK416 is not proven either.
The HK416 has no adoption by any military as a standardized weapon (except maybe Norway), has seen an insignificant amount of combat time, and has been on the scene less than 5 years.
Along with Turkey, Norway, etc. The HK-416 impressed the United States Marine Corps enough for them to adopt it as their new Infantry Automatic Rifle.
If the USMC is happy with the 416 filling an automatic rifle role, it should more than serve in a semi-auto carbine role. They also chose it over the SCAR.
If people like the SCAR better fine, but why all the HK hate? $2500 is hardly unreasonable for a high end carbine, even a DI AR. A Noveske with rail and switchblock goes for a little north of $2000, so it seems to me HK is staying in the ballpark of comparable weapons.
Will people make the same argument that Noveske is extremely overpriced? That Noveske offers nothing that a 6920 with a rail doesn't, but costs significantly more? Where is the Noveske hate on pricing? Why is a Noveske a quality carbine but HK is "insanely overpriced"? Seems to me some of it is just bias against HK.
MikeCLeonard
02-09-10, 19:26
- The 416 wooped the shit out of the M4 in the dust trials and was pretty much tied with the SCAR for stoppages even though one of the 416's submitted ended up being a lemon, and accounting for a large number of the 416's recorded stoppages.
- The 416 design has been chosen by the Corps as the next IAR. It beat the Colt, KAC, LWRC, and SCAR to get this contract.
- I know it's kind of dumb getting into the whole "Elite groups" crap, but hell, when a number of these outfits had the choice, they started picking up the 416's and where able to employ them in real combat where they were known to perform very well. Sure some of those guys may have gone back to the M4 for reasons such as weight, but not because of functional problems. In this case, the 416 has proven itself, albeit for only 5-6 years, as a reliable battle worthy rifle.
And you say there is ZERO benefit to the Hk 416 platform?
- The 416 wooped the shit out of the M4 in the dust trials and was pretty much tied with the SCAR for stoppages even though one of the 416's submitted ended up being a lemon, and accounting for a large number of the 416's recorded stoppages.
- The 416 design has been chosen by the Corps as the next IAR. It beat the Colt, KAC, LWRC, and SCAR to get this contract.
- I know it's kind of dumb getting into the whole "Elite groups" crap, but hell, when a number of these outfits had the choice, they started picking up the 416's and where able to employ them in real combat where they were known to perform very well. Sure some of those guys may have gone back to the M4 for reasons such as weight, but not because of functional problems. In this case, the 416 has proven itself, albeit for only 5-6 years, as a reliable battle worthy rifle.
And you say there is ZERO benefit to the Hk 416 platform?
+1 to this.
Considering the current dealer on the MR556 odds are the going price for any complete upper conversion, or stripped down MR556 is going to be well below $2000 if they used a magpul moe grip/stock and didn't include sights. HK sights and furniture tend to be really expensive compared to similar offerings anyway.
Must be the dissemination of the "H&K.....because you suck, and we hate you!" After using H&K equipment for years on and off duty, I personally feel that they are the top firearms manufacturer for police and military. I have honestly not encountered a H&K product that I didn't think was well engineered and well made.
variablebinary
02-09-10, 22:44
And what military or police units (other than maybe an individual cop here and there) are using XCRs?
.
Zooom, right over your head.
Why do people buy XCR's or ACR's or SCAR's, or any other 3rd gen carbine? Odds are it's a benefit or feature that cant be had on a $1200 6920 or typical AR15
Why would anyone buy a 16" 9lbs HK MR556 when it offers NO benefits over a 16" Colt 6920? Exactly what benefit do you believe is being obtained with the MR556's $2500 price point over much cheaper 16" direct gas AR15.
There is no SBR MR556; until there is one, so its not even worth mentioning.
Zooom, right over your head.
Zoom, right over your head. Your beloved XCR has not shown the reliability of a better grade semiauto M4. It doesn't matter whatever features it has.
There is no SBR MR556; until there is one, so its not even worth mentioning.
Given the fact that the XCR is a hobby gun that needs to be broken in and has not shown the durability of a better grade semiauto AR, it's not even worth mentioning, but that doesn't stop you.
It really doesn't matter what features it offers if it cannot match a decent civilian M4 in terms of reliability.
Not to mention that no military units use it; nor does any police department authorize it.
Post your latest updates to your XCR in the Other Assault Rifles to your heart's content.
But don't try to compare your gun to a battleproven weapon like the HK416 which is used by elite units and foreign governments.
variablebinary
02-09-10, 23:28
Zoom, right over your head. Your beloved XCR has not shown the reliability of a better grade semiauto M4. It doesn't matter whatever features it has.
Given the fact that the XCR is a hobby gun that needs to be broken in and has not shown the durability of a better grade semiauto AR, it's not even worth mentioning, but that doesn't stop you.
It really doesn't matter what features it offers if it cannot match a decent civilian M4 in terms of reliability.
Not to mention that no military units use it; nor does any police department authorize it.
Post your latest updates to your XCR in the Other Assault Rifles to your heart's content.
But don't try to compare your gun to a battleproven weapon like the HK416 which is used by elite units and foreign governments.
How about my SCAR? How about my safe full of Colt firearms? Damn, don't leave those out, man. Hell, I got a whole safe full of goodies, so I hope you have something else in your bag
http://home.comcast.net/~firearmspics/XCRandSCAR3.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~firearmspics/XCRandSCAR1.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~firearmspics/LWRCLMT.jpg
Or do you think talking about the XCR solely will magically provide a sound reason for paying for $2500 MR556 over a $1200 6920.
What were the benefits again? I missed that part of your response. Or is it just a couple of photos of SEALs on the internet that determine what you purchase. That seems to be the gist of your argument
Even junior college students know attempting the change the argument is a losing strategy.
How about my SCAR? How about my safe full of Colt firearms? Damn,
don't leave those out, man. Hell, I got a whole safe full of goodies, so I hope you have something
else in your bag
Yes, we've seen that you like to take pictures of your "toys," just like a little kid emptying his toy chest.
That's about all you like to do: "look at me and the latest thing I did to my XCR today. Weeee!"
Who cares?
You're taking this debate to elementary school level.
And exactly how does posting pictures of other firearms refute anything I said about the XCR?
If anyone really does cares, I can post some pictures of some my firearms, but that has no relevance to the issue at
hand.
Or do you think talking about the XCR solely will magically provide a sound reason for paying for $2500 MR556
over a $1200 6920.
You're the one who compared the MR556 to the XCR.
What were the benefits again? I missed that part of your response. Or is it just a couple of photos of
SEALs on the internet that determine what you purchase. That seems to be the gist of your argument.
As I have said, the HK416 is a combat proven gun capable of holding up to a high degree of use as proven by
units who fire thousands of rounds a month in training. It has been adopted by Norway and is being adopted
by Turkey and is being used on a smaller scale by various special forces units worldwide.
The XCR, on the otherhand, needs a several hundred round break in, has not proven as reliable or durable as
a 6920, and is being used by no one. I'd rather rely on a Romanian SAR-1 AK than an XCR.
And what are the benifits of buying the XCR range toy that does not have the track record of a 6920 or has
proven to be as reliable or durable as one?
Oh yeah, it's great if you like a range toy that you can dress up like a Barbie doll and takes lots of picturs to
post on message boards and say, "look at my XCR today!" And anounce new XCR developments as if anyone
on this board cares.
Even junior college students know attempting the change the argument is a losing strategy.
You're the one trying to change the topic. If you've read my posts they've said the same thing.
You were somehow trying to argue that your range toy XCR is somehow superior to the HK416 because it
has more features while ignoring the XCR's lack of reliability and durability and lack of any military or police
unit adopting it. Or somehow your taking pictures of unrelated firearms somehow validates your non-argument
about the XCR.
Look, it doesn't matter how many features an XCR has or how many calibers you can convert it to, the fact remains
that the gun does not have a good track record for making it through high round count classes and needs a break in.
It doesn't matter if it has more features or caliber conversions than Howard Johnson has flavors of ice cream.
No military unit uses it, no police agency authorizes it. And there is a reason for that.
XX
Not that this has anything to do with the debate at hand, but here are some pictures of some of my firearms.
All of the longarms have been used by me in at least one carbine class.
How many classes have the guns your pictures been used in, Variablebinary?
Most of these are pictures that I've posted elsewhere on this board.
My 6940 lower and Noveske N4 light upper and a few of my handguns:
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/readyguns.jpg
My 6920 lower with HK416 upper & my Steyr AUG a2:
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/416AUG.jpg
My FS2000:
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/fs2000-1.jpg
FS2000 & Belgian Para FN FAL, and older AR.
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/guns.jpg
My Steyr preban Maadi with ultimak & aimpoint T-1. Note-the ultimak was a loaner.
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/mymaadi.jpg
Note, given the the way this thread is going, if anyone wants their point to be taken
seriously they need to post more personally owned guns than I have. (just kidding, really ;)
Now, if I was in the market for an MR556, which I am not unless it is 10.5" why would I buy a $2500 9lbs, 16" MR556 over a DD, Noveske, or Colt?
Is it going to be more reliable? No. 16" "top tier" AR15's work great.
Are the ergos better? No, I can get better ergos with a KAC gun. At least I gain that much for the $2000+ KAC price point.
Is it lighter? No. The MR556 will weigh nearly 11lbs after a light and optic are added
I think that you made some assumptions, that are wrong. This wrong assumptions lead you to false results.
Biggest one is that HK MR556 is an offer for people looking for "piston AR15". Nothing more wrong. MR556 is not aimed at AR15 crowd, neither on "piston" crowd. This offer is made directly for people who want to have civilian version of HK416. Exactly like "civi SCAR" (how is it designated?) is for those who want to have civi SCAR, FS2000 is for those who want to have civi F2000, PS90 is for those wanting civi P90, HK91/HK41 was for those who wanted civi G3, etc. That MR556 looks like AR15 and even use some common components is just pure coincidence. If one want to have AR15 they have vast number of possibilities to choose from. If one wants to have real civi 416, there is only one - MR556/MR223. Anyway, what is that BMW cars make, that other "top tier" manufacturers can't make? If you want fast car, you have thousands of possibilities, but if you want to have M3, you will get it only from BMW ;)
Other assumption is that MR556/MR308 is heavy becouse HK does not know how to make light rifle. It's heavy, becouse HK decide to make it "Match Rifle" (MR for short) and go toward accuracy. That's why they used hbar (1" uder handuard, 0.750" in front) barrel. This is not wrong choice, taking into account that "easier thick stick to thinner than thin to thicker" (to roughly translate one polish 19th century play). I know of users that made their MRs into lightweight profile, shorten them to 14" or 10,5". Longer and thicker barrel makes you more possibity, given all ATF problems with importing genuine HK barrels from Germany to US, it looks like wise decision.
As to combat prooven and military users:
Polish SF (GROM) dumped (moved to support and logistcs units from first line units) KAC, Colt and Bushmaster for HK416 already some years ago. Feedback from combat use in bouth "sandboxes" was that good (bout in durability and reliability departmens) than our first line "export" unit 1.PSK (they provide QRF forces for Polish Responsibilty Zone in A-Stan and conduct S&D operations) was just rearmed from polish 5.56 Beryl (AK-derivate - very reliable but with AK lack of ergonomy and not compatible magazinewise with our US and UK allies) to HK416. We will not for sure place 416s for whole army, we just can't afford that, but we want best for our troops fighting WW3 out there. Of course most of our "anti terror" units (from police and different LE agencies) locally also want to have 416 (they select two specs: "same as GROM" or "better than GROM") but this of course do not give as much credit as daily use in war zone.
I think that you made some assumptions, that are wrong. This wrong assumptions lead you to false results.
Biggest one is that HK MR556 is an offer for people looking for "piston AR15". Nothing more wrong. MR556 is not aimed at AR15 crowd, neither on "piston" crowd. This offer is made directly for people who want to have civilian version of HK416. Exactly like "civi SCAR" (how is it designated?) is for those who want to have civi SCAR, FS2000 is for those who want to have civi F2000, PS90 is for those wanting civi P90, HK91/HK41 was for those who wanted civi G3, etc. That MR556 looks like AR15 and even use some common components is just pure coincidence. If one want to have AR15 they have vast number of possibilities to choose from. If one wants to have real civi 416, there is only one - MR556/MR223. Anyway, what is that BMW cars make, that other "top tier" manufacturers can't make? If you want fast car, you have thousands of possibilities, but if you want to have M3, you will get it only from BMW ;)
Other assumption is that MR556/MR308 is heavy becouse HK does not know how to make light rifle. It's heavy, becouse HK decide to make it "Match Rifle" (MR for short) and go toward accuracy. That's why they used hbar (1" uder handuard, 0.750" in front) barrel. This is not wrong choice, taking into account that "easier thick stick to thinner than thin to thicker" (to roughly translate one polish 19th century play). I know of users that made their MRs into lightweight profile, shorten them to 14" or 10,5". Longer and thicker barrel makes you more possibity, given all ATF problems with importing genuine HK barrels from Germany to US, it looks like wise decision.
As to combat prooven and military users:
Polish SF (GROM) dumped (moved to support and logistcs units from first line units) KAC, Colt and Bushmaster for HK416 already some years ago. Feedback from combat use in bouth "sandboxes" was that good (bout in durability and reliability departmens) than our first line "export" unit 1.PSK (they provide QRF forces for Polish Responsibilty Zone in A-Stan and conduct S&D operations) was just rearmed from polish 5.56 Beryl (AK-derivate - very reliable but with AK lack of ergonomy and not compatible magazinewise with our US and UK allies) to HK416. We will not for sure place 416s for whole army, we just can't afford that, but we want best for our troops fighting WW3 out there. Of course most of our "anti terror" units (from police and different LE agencies) locally also want to have 416 (they select two specs: "same as GROM" or "better than GROM") but this of course do not give as much credit as daily use in war zone.
Thanks for that insight, Montrala. I'm hoping H&K offers the civi version in a thinner barrel profile to reduce the front end weight, but I can deal with it if need be.
I think it's interesting that that the 416 is seeing so much distribution in Europe. Must mean it works well, and that there will be lots of support from H&K for it in the future.
Emailed HK about the barrel profile, they said it was a "match" barrel. I'm not sure what sort of robot talk that is, but I asked them the diameter.
Sounds like the first run is coming out with a boat anchor. If that's the case, it's a good rifle with a lousy barrel that I won't buy.
RE the HK416: Even still, the bolt lasts several times as long as that of the Colt M4.
Prove it.
The HK416 is proven with the elite unit of the US army that fires more rounds in practice than any other unit. And they have put it through its paces in combat. It is going into production in Turkey for that army, and is also being used by various special forces and SWAT units in Europe.
When the HK416 gets adopted by five first world countries as a standard infantry rifle and is in service for 20 years, then it will be proven.
Funny, ScottyRan, at one time you were down on the gun in this thread: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=195
Now you are labelling it as a "gun of the elite" even though no elite unit or military unit use it.
I didn't say any of these guns are the gun of the elite, I said they represent an elite class of gun design.
You reading comprehension and understanding sucks.
Emailed HK about the barrel profile, they said it was a "match" barrel. I'm not sure what sort of robot talk that is, but I asked them the diameter.
Sounds like the first run is coming out with a boat anchor. If that's the case, it's a good rifle with a lousy barrel that I won't buy.
If you look at the pictures in the new HK catalog is looks like a heavy barrel.
Along with Turkey, Norway, etc. The HK-416 impressed the United States Marine Corps enough for them to adopt it as their new Infantry Automatic Rifle.
If the USMC is happy with the 416 filling an automatic rifle role, it should more than serve in a semi-auto carbine role. They also chose it over the SCAR.
.
Turkey is not a first world country and the IAR has yet to be issued.
Emailed HK about the barrel profile, they said it was a "match" barrel. I'm not sure what sort of robot talk that is, but I asked them the diameter.
Sounds like the first run is coming out with a boat anchor. If that's the case, it's a good rifle with a lousy barrel that I won't buy.
Well no wonder it weighs 8.6lbs..........it's that heavy match barrel. Looks like it is a full 1" diameter under the forend, and then it tapers to 3/4". If H&K cut it down to a medium contour barrel it would probably take off 1/2lbs. With a light barrel it would probably be around 7.5lbs.
Yeah, I'll probably wait before I fork out that kinda cash until H&K offers a lighter barrel. I really have no use for a heavy match bbl.
ForTehNguyen
02-10-10, 14:41
supposedly the rails arent milled for lightweight either and adds noticeable weight as compared to Daniel Defense or LaRue of similar lengths.
Tuukka over in Finland said the regular 416 rail by itself only weighs 12.6 oz. If the initial production barrel is an HBAR, that's generally not the type of barrel contour I'd buy for any price. Even the IAR barrel looks lighter than a government contour, let alone an HBAR.
variablebinary
02-10-10, 15:18
Even without an HBAR "match" barrel it still weighs 8.4 lbs.
That is still a hell of a lot heavier than a 6920
MikeCLeonard
02-10-10, 16:23
These guys must be clueless...They obviously have no idea that their rifles offer no advantage over the Colt M4! :D
The guy on bottom at least shows how strong you have to be to carry one of these things around.
Seriously though, if these guys didn't see some benefit to carrying a 416, why did they chose to use one instead of a Colt? The weight thing sucks unless you're using a SBR...but I guess you could always get it re-profiled to a lighter weight if that's a deal breaker for you.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/mpnet/3975171034_4fc39f2415_o.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/mpnet/4016999104_00b4d38924_o.jpg
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh216/rifletotinbadboyy/delta2q.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/206jzhx.jpg
http://i35.tinypic.com/2rq0c5y.jpg
http://i29.tinypic.com/52id6g.jpg
The Stoner 63 was also used in combat and proved nothing.
You're making some very "binary" black/white statements in trying to show that the HK416 is inferior and/or unproven. Do I dislike Colt? Absolutely not!
And I bet some dead Viet Cong would disagree with you on the Stoner.
You're making some very "binary" black/white statements in trying to show that the HK416 is inferior and/or unproven. Do I dislike Colt? Absolutely not!
And I bet some dead Viet Cong would disagree with you on the Stoner.
It could also be said that the Stoner 63 was the first true modular rifle, and all that modularity worked against it. Because it was a jack of all trades, it had trouble doing a particular task reliably. In the carbine configuration, it was about as reliable as the regular M16, but it weighed about 2lbs more and was a rust bucket in Vietnam. In the light machine gun config, it was unreliable and required considerably more maintenance than even the M16........so it was dropped for the much more effective M249.
So basically, the Stoner 63 was a great concept, but it couldn't compete with what was currently in service. At this point, it appears that the 416 makes up for the weakensses of the M4, with only a slight increase in weight as proved in the extreme dust test and field use. Does that mean I'll go buy one?.......probably not. I'll likely stick with domestic DI rifles for the time being as I can get two for the price of one.
Hunter Rose
02-10-10, 19:12
Turkey is not a first world country and the IAR has yet to be issued.
Now I think you are splitting hairs on the IAR. The USMC extensively tested the HK416 in standard trim and found it to be the winner for their IAR. It beat the SCAR in this competition. But because 12 months hasn't passed and it isn't in general issue yet I'm supposed to think the 416 isn't a fine and reliable weapon system? Come on.:rolleyes:
It seems that to you the only way a weapon system can be viable is if the whole of the US military adopts it and it has ben issued for 40 years. In that case the SCAR is as unproven as the 416.
In that case the SCAR is as unproven as the 416.
Correct.
You're making some very "binary" black/white statements in trying to show that the HK416 is inferior and/or unproven. Do I dislike Colt? Absolutely not!
Posting pictures of some HK416s in very limited combat trying to prove that the gun is developed is stretching it.
I'm not saying it is inferior to a regular AR15.
It is not up to the same advancement as the five of the world most modern assault rifles that I listed in my earlier post.
You pay $2500 and you get no ambi or monolith and a taller proprietary rail and a gun that weighs more.
A gas piston who's benefits are dubious.
I can buy a regular AR15 for $1500.
When you pay $2500+ for a base gun, I expect a minimum of ambi and monolith. For this reason have not bought a LWRC with its rail that comes in too many pieces.
Hunter Rose
02-10-10, 20:16
You say that the HK is not up to the advancement of your list of five, i.e. ACR, SCAR, XCR, FN2000, and the AR15 Monolith.
However, the HK416 has been adopted by more military end users than all of those five combined. It seems to be there must be some hidden value that all these entities found in the 416 to choose it over every weapon in your llist of five.
I guess it was a poor selection process indeed for multiple countries military, the USMC, et al. Fools! All of them fools! :D
Jay Cunningham
02-10-10, 20:27
Several individuals posting in this thread are acting like children. This is your warning to grow up. I have no qualms about poking some accounts with a sharp stick.
variablebinary
02-10-10, 20:44
When you pay $2500+ for a base gun, I expect a minimum of ambi and monolith. .
Perfectly said. For $2500 you expect something, anything, that cant be done by a $1200 Colt 6920.
The Dumb Gun Collector
02-10-10, 21:21
"monolith" is awesome.
http://goldendome.org/EvolutionOfMan/2001MoonMonolith.jpg
MikeCLeonard
02-10-10, 21:26
Perfectly said. For $2500 you expect something, anything, that cant be done by a $1200 Colt 6920.
You could expect it to fail 3.8% of the time out of 6,000 rounds in harsh conditions instead of 14.7% if using the Colt. :) Is that correct? I'm not too mathematically gifted lol.
In response to my comment regarding the HK416: "Even still, the bolt lasts several times as long as that of the Colt M4."
Prove it.
It's an established fact and has been mentioned here and elsewhere.
Ask Larry Vickers or DocGKR.
from:
Some recent military shooting demonstrated that the HK416 exhibited substantially greater reliability and 3-4 times the durability of a Colt M4, with significantly less need for maintenance. The LWRC piston uppers are proving to offer similar advantages.
and:
HK416
-The bolt & barrel seem to last several fold over the DI CQBR of whatever manufacturer.
and:
The HK416 is a much cheaper weapons system when one considers the lifecycle cost on a high rd ct training (aka a training/demonstrator) weapon.
With the same rd ct, you will go through several M4A1 uppers before a 416 upper is wornout.
If your doing night centric operations, it's kinda nice to have a laser mounted on a rail that doesn't move/shift zero.
I have seen over 8K rds through a 416 w/o cleaning, w/o indicator of probs/sluggishness. This allows alot more time that could be spent on the primary function of instructing/teaching/mentoring/briefing/etc.
When the HK416 gets adopted by five first world countries as a standard infantry rifle and is in service for 20 years, then it will be proven.
The HK416 is relatively new and countries generally don't change weapons every few years.
How many countries or military/LE units are using firearms from your "elite" list?
I didn't say any of these guns are the gun of the elite, I said they represent an elite class of gun design.
You reading comprehension and understanding sucks.
And your use of the adjective elite to indicate guns that you like leaves quite a bit to be desired.
I don't label a gun "elite" simply because it has certain features.
Let's look at your original post:
The current state of the art in assault rifles is represented by the ACR, SCAR, XCR, FN2000, and the
AR15 Monolith.
The LWRC and HK416 are not in this group of the elite.
I'm not going to address the LWRC here, because that would make this thread explode like ex-Yugoslavia.
Of the ACR, SCAR, XCR, FN2000, and the AR15 Monolith, the only gun I would consider elite is the SCAR. It has an ambi safety and a switchable charging handle and has undergone more operational tests as well as tests and service with end users than all of the rest of the guns on that list combined. Some of those guns are new and unproven, some guns like AR15 Monolith don't come with ambi features from the factory, and some guns like the FS2000 have other issues.
BTW, both the SCAR and the HK416 performed significantly better than the M4 in the dust tests and I don't see anything about a monolithic AR that would make it perform better in that regard.
As for the FS2000, it does have an ambi safety and due to the balance is probably the easiest, most comfortable gun to shoot left-handed if you are right hand dominant. But you are going to have a slow and hard time running if you are trying to use your right hand as a support hand to try to run the charging handle on the left side of the receiver. Even though the balance makes it easier and more comfortable to shoot, a standard AR is actually more ambidextrous if you are concerned with running the charging handle with either hand.
I am not saying that the FS2000 (Or the AR for that matter) are bad guns. I own both and have thousands and thousands of rounds through both. In fact I think the AR in my first picture would be an excellent gun for many people given the manufacturers, sling, sights, and light). I just don't label guns as "elite" based on features alone.
The HK416 is relatively new and countries generally don't change weapons every few years.
How many countries or military/LE units are using firearms from your "elite" list?
And your use of the adjective elite to indicate guns that you like leaves quite a bit to be desired.
I don't label a gun "elite" simply because it has certain features.
Let's look at your original post:
I'm not going to address the LWRC here, because that would make this thread explode like ex-Yugoslavia.
Of the ACR, SCAR, XCR, FN2000, and the AR15 Monolith, the only gun I would consider elite is the SCAR. It has an ambi safety and a switchable charging handle and has undergone more operational tests as well as tests and service with end users than all of the rest of the guns on that list combined. Some of those guns are new and unproven, some guns like AR15 Monolith don't come with ambi features from the factory, and some guns like the FS2000 have other issues.
BTW, both the SCAR and the HK416 performed significantly better than the M4 in the dust tests and I don't see anything about a monolithic AR that would make it perform better in that regard.
As for the FS2000, it does have an ambi safety and due to the balance is probably the easiest, most comfortable gun to shoot left-handed if you are right hand dominant. But you are going to have a slow and hard time running if you are trying to use your right hand as a support hand to try to run the charging handle on the left side of the receiver. Even though the balance makes it easier and more comfortable to shoot, a standard AR is actually more ambidextrous if you are concerned with running the charging handle with either hand.
I am not saying that the FS2000 (Or the AR for that matter) are bad guns. I own both and have thousands and thousands of rounds through both. In fact I think the AR in my first picture would be an excellent gun for many people given the manufacturers, sling, sights, and light). I just don't label guns as "elite" based on features alone.
You are trying to debate my choice of words rather than admitting the five guns I listed are the current state of the art.
In response to my comment regarding the HK416: "Even still, the bolt lasts several times as long as that of the Colt M4."
It's an established fact and has been mentioned here and elsewhere.
Ask Larry Vickers or DocGKR.
from:
and:
and:
Those are not proof.
The quote:
"it seems like the bolt lasts longer" is not fact.
Gas piston AR15s have more stress on the bolt. This is a known indisputable scientific fact since the first gas piston AR15 was developed by Colt in the 1970s
To remidy this issue, you have to use a stronger steel or a different bolt design, which cost more money and has insignificant gain.
It has an ambi safety and a switchable charging handle and has undergone more operational tests as well as tests and service with end users than all of the rest of the guns on that list combined. Some of those guns are new and unproven, some guns like AR15 Monolith don't come with ambi features from the factory, and some guns like the FS2000 have other issues.
BTW, both the SCAR and the HK416 performed significantly better than the M4 in the dust tests and I don't see anything about a monolithic AR that would make it perform better in that regard.
As for the FS2000, it does have an ambi safety and due to the balance is probably the easiest, most comfortable gun to shoot left-handed if you are right hand dominant. But you are going to have a slow and hard time running if you are trying to use your right hand as a support hand to try to run the charging handle on the left side of the receiver. Even though the balance makes it easier and more comfortable to shoot, a standard AR is actually more ambidextrous if you are concerned with running the charging handle with either hand.
I am not saying that the FS2000 (Or the AR for that matter) are bad guns. I own both and have thousands and thousands of rounds through both. In fact I think the AR in my first picture would be an excellent gun for many people given the manufacturers, sling, sights, and light). I just don't label guns as "elite" based on features alone.
There isn't anyone in this thread that doesn't already realize this.
The FN2000 was included because it represents the state of the art in bullpup design if you are a bullpup fan.
The Dumb Gun Collector
02-11-10, 12:36
Khaybar KH2002 assault rifle (Iran)
http://world.guns.ru/assault/kh2002.jpg
Khaybar KH2002 assault rifle (Iran)
http://world.guns.ru/assault/kh2002.jpg
It looks like a bullpupped M16 judging by where the selector switch is and the break in the receiver. Pretty elite. :rolleyes:
In regards to the F2000 being state of the art..........it has a great deal of design issues that prevent it from being accepted outside of its native Belgium. Bullpups never go very far as they tend to compromise too much over their standard configured counterparts for the sake of a shorter length. Often they get distributed in limited numbers to tankers and other units that operate in confined spaces, but aren't given to regular infantry because of the design limitations. We'll see how long the Israelis keep the Tavor. Last I read the IDF doesn't like the design and would rather have a standard configuration.
30 cal slut
02-11-10, 12:52
$2,500 for a complete gun vs. what was $4,000-$5,000 for a 416 upper a few years ago ...
not bad.
i can't say i really need an AR-style piston gun right now, having essentially destroyed several models over the past two years. :D
if the 416 design does become more broadly adapted by our armed forces (as suggested in a post above) ... i would consider getting an MR556.
right now, there's just too many darn piston designs, there's got to be a shakeout at some point.
Moose-Knuckle
02-11-10, 13:01
Khaybar KH2002 assault rifle (Iran)
http://world.guns.ru/assault/kh2002.jpg
Nah not the elite of the elite....
I'm still waiting for my Mexican FX-05...
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/FX-05.jpg
:D
Nah not the elite of the elite....
I'm still waiting for my Mexican FX-05...
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/FX-05.jpg
:D
Hey, it has monolithic rails...........it's elite :D
these threads never cease to amaze. :rolleyes:
Those are not proof.
The quote:
"it seems like the bolt lasts longer" is not fact.
Gas piston AR15s have more stress on the bolt. This is a known indisputable scientific fact since the first gas piston AR15 was developed by Colt in the 1970s
To remidy this issue, you have to use a stronger steel or a different bolt design, which cost more money and has insignificant gain.
"Seems to" is just one of the quotes. Let's look at the other ones:
the HK416 exhibited substantially greater reliability and 3-4 times the durability of a Colt M4, with significantly less need for maintenance.
and:
The HK416 is a much cheaper weapons system when one considers the lifecycle cost on a high rd ct training (aka a training/demonstrator) weapon.
With the same rd ct, you will go through several M4A1 uppers before a 416 upper is wornout.
Of course you know more than Subject matter experts here who have extensive hands on experience with the gun, and people like Larry Vickers who helped develop the gun.
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