View Full Version : Krebs KTR and an Aimpoint
NCPatrolAR
04-04-07, 22:51
Will an Aimpoint co-witness if mounted on a Krebs KTR? I'm thinking of getting one of these, but dont plan to drop the money if I cant co-witness my optic.
Thanks
Trying to get your AK set up for the LAV class? :)
Want to drive down to Conyers for another one in October?
Unfortunately, no they won't.
About the only mount system that will allow for a co-witness is the Ultimak gas tube replacement rail system, which works well.
That is not to say that you shouldn't pick up one of the Krebs KTR rifles if possible, they are top shelf weapons.
This is GotM4 with his SLR-106FR, Ultimak, and Aimpoint at the first Vicker's AK Class....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/AK%20class%20pics/VTAKROBB.jpg
That picture right there is why I took my Surefire M83 off and put on an Ultimak gas tube mount. GotM4 isn't having to use a chin weld like I did when I had mine on the Surefire.
NCPatrolAR
04-05-07, 15:12
Trying to get your AK set up for the LAV class? :)
Actually I have a WASR ready to go for the May AK class. I was toying around with getting a KTR for use in the lowlight class in Sept, but if I cant co-witness my optic then I'll go a different route. I'll probably get something a bit cheaper and through an ultimak system on it and run that. Who knows now.
Business_Casual
07-16-07, 19:13
Have there been any updates on the Krebs receiver cover rail that I have missed? I am very interested in getting one.
M_P
Pat_Rogers
07-16-07, 19:14
Has there been any updates on the Krebs receiver cover rail that I have missed? I am very interested in getting one.
M_P
Ihave been running one since early April. It is pretty good to go.
Business_Casual
07-16-07, 21:48
Pat, that is good news; thank you for taking the time to post that. Is there a recent projection for when the rails will be on the market?
M_P
An Aimpoint Micro T-1 or H-1 might work but I haven't had a chance to try one yet. I have tried the Surefire M83 and while low, it won't co-witness. See attached photo.
S/F
shooter521
07-17-07, 08:22
Ihave been running one since early April. It is pretty good to go.
Pat is the master of the understatement. ;) His rail came attached to the Darth Vader rifle on the left:
http://www.photobucket.com/albums/i188/shooter521/misc%20guns/krebs_AKs.jpg
Very much "good to go," although in response to the OP's question, the Krebs rail system won't allow co-witnessing of the iron sights, either, no matter how low you can get the Aimpoint. :mad:
As previously mentioned, the only game in town for co-witnessing is the Ultimak... at least until Mark LaRue brings his side-rail mount to market. :D
Pat_Rogers
07-17-07, 08:48
Absolutely true- no co witnessing. However, and in the general scheme of things, this is a trade off you have to accept in dealing with the AK platform.
To get a good cowitness, you need to elevate the iron sights, and that is not realistic.
The Aimpoint in a Larue low mount puts it in a useable position, but occludes the iron sights.
An option is a side mounted optic to allow the use of the iron sights under the mount, but that puts the mount a a position that is higher then what i would consider good.
Even with the low mount Aimpoint, Dot Off drills are not really viable- the AK is not an AR and can't be considered as such.
My solution is to use a quality optic. I strongly prefer the Aimpoint due to durability and battery life (I don't ever shut any of mine off).
As their failure rate (talking about M3/ M4 here) is roughly analagous to Haleys Comet passing by the earth, i am pretty confident in the system.
Or, just use iron sights....:D
I have been talking to Mark about a side mount for 2 years now. He even went out and bought an AK. He is just too busy churning out good gear for the good guys to slay haji's with right now- and for the immediate future.
shooter521
07-17-07, 11:06
To get a good cowitness, you need to elevate the iron sights, and that is not realistic.
The raised A2 style rear sight and taller front that Krebs puts on his KTR-03V/S might be a possibility, but of course those are custom guns. For the average off-the-rack AK, the Ultimak works, but brings with it its own set of issues (front heavy, heat buildup, inability to remove the gas tube w/o re-zeroing). Fortunately, I haven't found any of those issues to outweigh the benefits of a co-witnessed red dot... as long as one remembers to Loctite his damn screws and check his witness marks regularly. ;)
I have been talking to Mark about a side mount for 2 years now. He is just too busy churning out good gear for the good guys to slay haji's with right now
Have you spoken to him about this recently? He currently has a thread over on "That Other Site" actively soliciting interest from AK users. He stated the prototype mount has been built, and seems to be committed to moving forward with this project. Good news for those of us on the Dark Side, even if it takes a little time to materialize. ;)
ETA - Here's a link to a thread on this site, containing a link to the thread on TOS:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6183
Gabe Suarez's Aimpoint Co-witnessed with my KTR-03 just fine. You had to move the dot down a little bit, but otherwise it worked perfectly. I think this is a "lower third" co-witnessing and not a "absolute" co-witnessing.
Aimpoints are just about the only optics that will sit low enough to have any hope of co-wintnessing on an AK. I think AK owners love trijicons, EOtechs, etc. But they seem to either all mount Aimpoint, or Russian PK-AS sights.
The Krebs systems are good. But I think there are ways to work with the standard railed AKM that are much cheaper and still produce the same benefits of the KTR's. You need a low profile aimpoint mount that works off the side rail and can quick detach. Optics mounts are good for those who like them. The more proprietary for the aimpoint, the lower you can go.
For the rest of us, aperture sights are a big plus and this can be accomplished by making a Krinkov cover adapter for the AKM rear sight block and Krinkov covers with aperture sights further back on the cover.
Just My $.02
What mount will allow a co-witness on an Ultimak? I tried a ARMS 22m68 mount but it is too high.
The Aimpoint (for a M or ML series) low wide mount is low enough on an Ultimak to achieve a cowitness with an AK's irons.
Thanks Snake appreciate the info.
Just for grins I put a Docter optic on my KTR yesterday to see if it would co-witness and no dice either. I'm thinking you need some type of look-through ring for this....doesn't Larue make a look-through scope ring?
Jay Cunningham
09-19-07, 14:39
Gabe Suarez's Aimpoint Co-witnessed with my KTR-03 just fine. You had to move the dot down a little bit, but otherwise it worked perfectly. I think this is a "lower third" co-witnessing and not a "absolute" co-witnessing.
Aimpoints are just about the only optics that will sit low enough to have any hope of co-wintnessing on an AK. I think AK owners love trijicons, EOtechs, etc. But they seem to either all mount Aimpoint, or Russian PK-AS sights.
The Krebs systems are good. But I think there are ways to work with the standard railed AKM that are much cheaper and still produce the same benefits of the KTR's. You need a low profile aimpoint mount that works off the side rail and can quick detach. Optics mounts are good for those who like them. The more proprietary for the aimpoint, the lower you can go.
For the rest of us, aperture sights are a big plus and this can be accomplished by making a Krinkov cover adapter for the AKM rear sight block and Krinkov covers with aperture sights further back on the cover.
Just My $.02
You must have the world's only KTR that has a rail that allows that. The only one that currently allows it is the UltiMAK. Period.
You must have the world's only KTR that has a rail that allows that. The only one that currently allows it is the UltiMAK. Period.
Have you tried it? It worked with this mount, the low style...
http://www.swfa.com/pc-7732-506-aimpoint-x-wide-30mm-ring.aspx
Jay Cunningham
09-19-07, 23:56
I will just have to take your word for it.
I KNOW that with that particular mount and an Aimpoint on an UltiMAK the optic co-witnesses just barely.
This arrangement:
http://www.ultimak.com/products/apcompc.jpg
produces this sight picture:
http://www.ultimak.com/gallery/dot2.jpg
The Krebs rail sits higher than the UltiMAK I can't understand how it would also co-witness. So like I said I'll have to take your word for it I suppose. Just wondering, what was your rear sight set to?
Krebs sights sit higher than regular AK sights.
Jay Cunningham
09-20-07, 00:23
Krebs sights sit higher than regular AK sights.
So they do. Your KTR-03 model is pretty unique in that respect:
http://blogimg.goo.ne.jp/user_image/2e/af/d3855a3f10974d5e348d116b28a3d597.jpg
That arrangement has been discontinued, however. As you can see in the pic that Pat Rogers posted, the new KTR's won't allow for it.
So they do. Your KTR-03 model is pretty unique in that respect:
http://blogimg.goo.ne.jp/user_image/2e/af/d3855a3f10974d5e348d116b28a3d597.jpg
That arrangement has been discontinued, however. As you can see in the pic that Pat Rogers posted, the new KTR's won't allow for it.
Yeah, but you can get a tunnel sight picture like the Yugo snipers and G3's have due to the backup rear sight on the new KTR-08's.
Canonshooter
09-22-07, 18:53
I had the Ultimak on my Krebs AK103k and eventually removed it. I wasn't pleased with the inability to remove the gas tube with having to rezero, and it seemed my accuracy decreased a touch with the thing clamped to the barrel.
I ultimately took the BP-02 mount and modifed it so that the rail sits lower on the mount. With an Aimpoint and low mount ring it does not co-witness, but the Aimpoint sits low enough - and on vertical center with the barrel, unlike the PK-AS - to allow a good cheek weld. Until Larue comes out with his mount, I'll stick with this set up.
http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/ak103k-3.jpg
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